40 meter pileups...

[N2DTS]

40 meters has been great lately, and a lot of people seem to want to get on.
But I do not understand why someone would want to join a group that already has 4 to 8 people in it.

2 is good, 3 is great, 4 people are ok if they keep transmissions a bit short, but over that it gets a bit silly, and you always seem to get someone who wants to talk for 15 minutes, sometimes its the weak person who not everyone can copy.

Its all fun, but why join a group as the 7th person?

I try an get on 7295 or 7285 and avoid 7290 as that ties up 85 and 95 if you run a class E rig or set your SDR to 20 KHz.
People also do 7275.

I also try and talk about what other people are using or topics they bring up, and not just join a qso then list all the 5000 radios I might have in studio d.

I dislike doing so, but last weekend I just shut the stuff off and did other things I had to do without signing out as it would have taken another 1/2 hour to get around to me, and people were still joining the group!

Lots of activity is great, and very good to see, but maybe spread out some?
40 is not usually crowded after the early morning nets sign off....

[KD6VXI]

75 has been busy put west,  too.

3860 to 3885 are always busy in the evening.....   

I know what your saying about signing out.   Sometimes the kids come get me for something needing my attention,  and I just can't wait for the other ten people in line to finish their 5 to 10 minute diatribes.

I'm sure people say the same about me.   Lol.


--Shane
KD6VXI

[flintstone mop]

40M is a pretty good sized bands. find a clear spot away from an existing AM QSO and start another one....Legal Limit

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I always ignore/avoid large roundtables unless I need a sleep aid. Most large roundtable discussions tend to be nebulous in their actual content and there generally really isn't much of a discussion. When I get on the air, I want to communicate with someone one on one and not talk once, wait 8 or 9 more transmissions, talk once, wait 8 or 9 transmissions, etc. That is sooooooooooooooo boring.

[K1JJ]

One way to fix big, overinflated round-table groups that get bogged down is to change to break-in operation.  Watch the guys who can't handle it drop out like flies....

After all, break-in is  how we talk in person, right?

A listen to the nightly group on 3873 or the 1885 group on Thursday nights will show how it's done.  With even eight stations on board break-in can get so fast paced that everybody gets a chance and has all the action they can handle.  

It's fun to watch how a roundtable evolves into a traffic jam. Everyone starts talking longer and longer thinking they better get in their licks while they got it -  and then it implodes as everyone signs out.  

The classic ending:  "Well, now that I've talked for 30 minutes, I gotta go - I'll be turning off the receiver immediately and heading upstairs."

The golden rule of Old Buzzarding:  "The longer someone talks, the fewer replies are directed back to him."   Example: If a person talks for 30 minutes straight, he will be lucky to hear a curt "good on all, OM " in return. (assuming there's still a listener left)  That's about a 0.1% return.   However if he says something short like, " I'm running a DX-100 at 100 watts and a dipole - what rig are you running?" He will likely get a full 100% reply to his comment.  

T

[W7NGA]

Not that anyone should ramble for 30-minutes, but AM is a mindset, has a personality. Why try and make it be SSB?

W7NGA  dan
San Juan Island, Wa.

[Steve - K4HX]

Yea! Stop working DX on 10 and 15 meter AM!  That's for SSB. 

[N2DTS]

I do not waste my time listening to 3873, nothing but rants.
Someone once said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

The problem with round tables is they get too big.
If the group is under 5 its nice, I put the headphones on and go up and make some tea.

[KX5JT]

I love "radio season"!!

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Every day is radio season, though the cooler wx makes for more indoor time to enjoy it. 

Much of the reason for the congestion on a couple frequencies is related to two things: followers vs leaders and something fictitious referred to as "AM Windows" which are supposedly the only places AMers are allowed to operate.

The first isn't something you will ever change. Fewer people seem capable or willing to start activity but are more than happy to join in if you get the party going for them ahead of time and make it convenient.

The second isn't likely to change either, since some are determined to perpetuate the myth. A few years back though, when more of us were active almost daily, AM activity could be heard regularly on 7160, 7190, 7220 and elsewhere. I recall working Steve/K4HX and 7220 a few times as well as below 7200 with many others. 7.160 used to be a regular AM hangout back in the day before foreign broadcast became a problem.

One way to fix big, overinflated round-table groups that get bogged down is to change to break-in operation.  Watch the guys who can't handle it drop out like flies....

After all, break-in is  how we talk in person, right?

Yep, a more natural flow for sure.

I think it was Ken/DTC who very astutely pointed out to me some years back: Ever notice that some of the guys who claim they want to work break-in to avoid old buzzard transmissions are the ones who talk the longest, and have something to say every time someone un-keys?

Break-in is a blast with the right group. There were some real barn-burners over the years that still make me smile. And no one could beat Ralphie to the key!

Then in more recent years I can remember a couple different ops joining a group on 80m only to comment a short time later "Well, I guess I killed this frequency!".

Roundtable groups are great, too. When they get too big, the solution is simple: take a couple other folks and fire up on another frequency.

[flintstone mop]

I like Todd's post. I did not want to create a huge window of the quote.
We gotta get away from those AM CHANNELS caaamon.
Break-in is ok if everyone on freq is hearing the others. 160M is not good for break-in unless everyone on freq has a well established station on the air with a fully modulated carrier and FULL legal limit. The loser in the break-in mode on 160 will be the guy with a Valiant running a dipole 20 feet high from the ground and crackly audio.
The Round table will give the guys that do not have the equipment or resources to have a real signal on the air a chance to put their best foot forward and the bigger stations will go through whatever to pick them out of the noise and static.
Fred

[N2DTS]

Before sdr, (and not everyone has one) the window was the place to look for AM activity.
You could park your receiver on 7290, or 3880 and if there was AM activity, you would hear it.
Even with SDR's, you still need to tune around to spot the AM activity.

Go on 7200 and call cq AM and you will not get much response most times, no one is looking there.
I think its kind of nice everyone knows where to look for activity, but then we need to spread out sometimes.

[K1JJ]

Yes, there will always be a popular place for formal, predictable round tables on AM. Why not?

But because of human nature and the uncertainty of  band conditions, personalities, signal strengths, etc.,  QSO players need to be always sensitive to what's happening.  If we listen closely to the ebb and flow of joy and frustrations  generated by a QSO, we can stay tuned to dynamically evolve the QSO if need be.

There are times for one-on-one intense technical QSOs and we should leave them alone to do their thing... but if someone else joins in the participants might evolve it into break-in... or if another serious subject comes up it may evolve into round-table... and then back to break-in if things change.

This flexible style has always generated the most interesting and exciting QSOs that I've heard. It's like being at a real in-person party: We see the same patterns with a crowd centered around one guy talking and then it becomes a one-liner joke fest, only to change into a roundtable as everyone takes a turn.

The rule is there ARE no rules -  as long as everyone is sensitive to what's happening and makes an effort to go with the flow so that the majority can participate in the manner that is happening now. There will always be people who cannot be heard perfectly and this is the job of the participants to watch and adjust for.  caw-mawn.

The bottom line: It's every participants' responsibility to make the QSO a better place.   I think the master of this QSO business was Willie / W3DUQ. Now there was a guy who always had his finger on the pulse of activity!

T

[Steve - K4HX]

You can monitor the entire band with an SDR. An AM carrier stands out like a sore thumb. No reason to clump on one or two frequencies. Doing the same old thing and expecting different results is definition of insanity.

We also have a section for every band here to request QSOs or announce times and frequencies. It's time to move beyond the operating styles of the 1950s.

[N2DTS]

I do not find an AM signal stands out in power sdr at wider spectrum selections.
It does better on other programs, but not so much on powerSDR.

[Steve - K4HX]

Get your eyes checked. 

[W3RSW]

vis;
 lookit the ones with digi sigs on side bands too.

Grand Ol'Oprey on 650.  

But I have to admit I like CuSDR for general AM receiving better.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

That's quite a message, Rick!

The bottom line: It's every participants' responsibility to make the QSO a better place.   I think the master of this QSO business was Willie / W3DUQ. Now there was a guy who always had his finger on the pulse of activity!

Well said Tom. Those are the memorable group gatherings, when the participants as you said were paying attention and making the QSO work for everyone, not just themselves.

Bill was indeed good at sitting back, taking it all in, assessing the situation and adjusting the format to the group. Very laid back but also very, very astute. Really miss those days, even just listening in on the Future Net with Bill, Gary, Dave, and whoever else wandered by.

[N2DTS]

Yes, its very easy to see AM on the broadcast band.
But if I set the sdr to 190 KHz on 80 meters, its not easy to see a weak AM signal among a bunch of strong SSB and other signals, at least not in power sdr.

[Steve - K4HX]

Are you going to want to have a QSO with someone that is so PW you can't see their carrier on the spectrum display?   

 AM carriers with reasonable signal strength stand out on any spectrum display I've ever used. I've been looking at real time spectral displays spanning back to the 1980s.

[W3RSW]

Mmm hmm. Xactly right.  Power SDR default seems to be garish high contrast to impress the lowly.
A little adjustment of dynamic range makes these signals quite strappescent.

"Standoutish," if you will.

There are even more subtle waterfall displays available, but I settled temporarily here:

OTOH, the black and white traces seem even less garish.
Compare these with the default pix earlier in the thread.

I'm sure Brett can find something suitable with some adjustments.
I guess it's all what looks pleasing and with selectability to each.

[N2DTS]

Notice the top display is only 60 Khz and the AM is not that easy to see despite it being quite strong.
Plus, you can not just make things broad and work on the bench and trust to hear it when someone fires up the AM transmitter.

I look for CW in the CW section of the bands, an AM in the windoze and think that is handy, not that you can not go anyplace phone is allowed on the bands.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Makes me think of life before cellphones. How did we ever manage?

Still don't have anything that fancy in the station, so I just tune around to look for an interesting conversation or head down the band and call CQ on a clear frequency. True, sometimes no one answers, but I'd guess 85-90% of the time someone does. Even had a few cross-mode contacts this way.

[W3RSW]

Brett, look at the waterfalls for a few seconds if the momentary freq. Jiggles seem confusing. As previously mentioned, you really can't miss the solid straight line over time carriers, vertical and as straight as a vfo or other means of freq. control allow.

If you see interrupts in the vertical carrier lines it may mean that station is listening instead of transmitting.  When another carrier starts its vertical trace it could be slightly higher or lower in freq. ( right or left ) of the previous trace since an AM station in original QSO almost never is on exact same freq. in boat anchor land.

These vertical carrier lines almost always show up at even large "slice" or window segments.  There are none on SSB QSO's unless someone is tuning up on one, etc.

If you have sufficient vertical resolution ("speed ")  you can see FMing of the carrier too.
CW of course will have an interrupted carrier carrying exact information.
You know all of this of course: just outlining it for students.

In summary, if in doubt or in a jungle of varying panadapter signals just watch the waterfall for a few seconds for a solid carrier.

When a 32v fires up you can see its carrier drift stabilize over a few seconds.

[flintstone mop]

Get your eyes checked. 

If you're only seeing a small slice of a panadapter the tall steady carriers might be hard to see.
I can see the entire 40M. I took the extra step to get a nice outboard soundacrd 192khz
I see the AM carriers and the SSB eeeesaliy

You got it nice Rick