Vertical antenna masts

[wa1knx]

    Its been a long time since I have been in here, so hello to all.  I have a
3 element vertical beam here on 75 thats been in disrepair. Last fall I did repairs, rebuilt the tuning coils, and tuned up the elements. This winter has been a lot
of fun working european dx from AZ!  The elements are made of tv push up
masts. steel with dacron rope. They've been up 10+ years and and I am
thinking of replacing them, guy ropes etc.

    I've been looking for something better, like is there a aluminum push up
mast?  DX engineering sells some, but must be pulled up from lying down.
looks difficult so looking for ideas.

    This year has been fun getting back on. I've had a few difficult years
with health etc but enjoying the hobby again! Talked with Tim HLR a a few
times, hes told me of some silent keys. before I become one, I'm hopeing
to get some more projects in!

73 deano wa1knx

[W3RSW]

Hey Deano,

Laws of physics and economics as you know.  How high are your existing verticals and do you need to go that high or higher?  How much do you want to spend? Yes, DX Eng'rimg has many choices on pages 70,  71 of current catalog mailed out a week or so ago, including small tilt winches / stub masts for raising top weight unloaded verticals. Three each of everything does add up.  

Given that your using loading coils your apparently not using full 68 ft. 1/4 wave vertical elements.

There are several very light weight push up, portable verticals on the market up to, say 43 ft. Which collapse to five feet, including tote bags.  Three of these, light weight guy cords, etc. may be the way to go.  If something breaks, or wears out, easily taken down and fixed, replaced. Does not have to be super commercial/mil. rated in anything but electrically if it's easily taken down (but guyed properly for wind load. )

Page 50, same cat. has a 50 ft. (Or less) Fiberglas telescoping vertical that can be used with interior wire.  Not full dia. tubing but Your probably using only 50 kc or so on 75 anyway. Idea: you might take say three no. 14 tw wires and wind them together with your ol' drill to give a beefy equivalent but with flexibility.  These can be run up outside the tubing if desired.

Probably Time to check out, polish up or replace your phasing lines, loading coils, relay contacts, housings if any and coax too.

[Tom WA3KLR]

Hello Deano!  Yes, we hadn't heard of you in a long time and I was wondering. 

It's good to "hear" from you.

I'm still working and plan to for a number of years yet.  Do you plan to stay out there permanently?

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

 Klee-N-eX!! How ya doin' OM? Wowsers, it's been a looooong time. A lot of water over the dam since the last time we spoke and yes - we've lost a number of the AM crew since then. On the bright side, 'PJP got married(!!) 2 yrs back and became a dad last Sept, and Jen and I have a beautiful 2.5 yr old daughter(photos attached). We're living in NC now, pretty sure we were here the last time you and I spoke on the air. Too old to remember!

 As to your mast/antenna question....I'm a little confused as to how you're using the TV masts (it's early, coffee hasn't kicked in yet, holiday weekend, I confuse easily, etc etc). Are you using them as active elements with the driven element somehow insulated from the ground, or as supports for vertical wires? Those military collapsible masts are available in aluminum or fiberglass and are pretty stout. Guy wire rings & anchors, ground spikes, etc available. They can get a little pricey, but look like they'd last for decades in your situation. Fiberglass version would be cheaper and probably adequate.

 They'll last even longer if you remember not to adjust the SWR with a 12 gauge. 

 Great to hear from you! It lights a fire under me to get back on the air too.

[Opcom]

We used to assemble 40FT aluminum mast-poles on the ground and pull them up in the military. Assembled all the guys and everything and one person would be at the far end and lift it, and a -big- person would pull the mast up, using the last guy ropes to keep it fairly straight all the way up, then clip them to the stake. It was entirely do-able and not hard with two persons and we did of course have a small VHF/UHF antenna on top when not using it for HF.

I found one of those ceramic insulating bases recently and have been thinking of a vertical dipole for 10-12M. No coils.

[wa1knx]

re;  I have that new DX engineering catalog.  they can get pricey for the
aluminum ones but that is what I'd prolly use. the masts I have are rohn
h50, which is really 43'. I extended them to 50 then put a CB whips on top
to get to 58' +-.  full length makes for a director, and a cpl turns makes
for refllector. I have 90-100 radials under them.  It really works well

I out here for good most likely Tom, esp after the winter back NE area
this year! Todd where in NC are you?  congrats on your girl, and PJP
Joe married WOW!   I haven't thought about military, that might be a
way to go.  it will be hot here for the summer so making plans for next
fall.   and I'm thinking of adding 2 more verticals. ie make it like the
number 5 on dice.  Feed in the center, then I can switch  the outer
verticals as either directors or reflectors and it would give me 4 directions
to point an active 3 element vertical beam!  thats the thought anyway.
I wonder if Tom K1JJ is around anymore?

73 deano wa1knx

[DMOD]

Deano,

If you decide on a single antenna mast of the 43' to 50' variety, you might consider these loading systems for 80 and 160m.


http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=36935.0
http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=36511.0



Phil - AC0OB

[W1ITT]

Hi Dean..
You may remember me as WA1IVB, one of the Hosstraders hamfest guys, but I swapped for W1ITT.  Anyhow,a method for raising towers that most hams don't use is one I use for raising 4-30 mhz rotary log periodics on 100 foot towers.  The method will scale down nicely to smaller stuff.
First, instead of three guys, use four..two on the sides and one front and back.  Lay the tower on the ground, towards the front guy anchor, and set and tension the side guys.  With the assistance of Mr. Pythagoras, calculate and make up the front guy.  Then, preferable using a gin pole with just a splash of tonic water, raise the tower by pulling up the rear guy.  We use mid and top guys for all of these, but that depends on how floppy your poles will be.  A number of fellows in farm country use 4 inch irrigation pipe for 80m verticals. 
If you look at the setup, the side guys and the ground between them make up a rigid triangle that just tilts up with the tower.   I have used myself, mostly pointing and saying "crank faster' and two stout helpers to lift the Rotary Logs at a quarter million dollars or more apiece, with no heartache.  If you set it up right, it may actually be safer than having a lot of well-meaning volunteers pulling wildly on the guys.
Not to throw you off the track but, for DX, especially over poor ground, my favorite antenna is a pair of dipoles spaced a quarter wave, each fed with a quarter wave of open wire line.  Parallel the feeds, flipping one to give a 180 degree phase shift, and then run open wire back to the shack.  Mine is at 85 feet and kicks plenty of butt on DX, up there with many of the 4-squares in the preferred directions, but my friend Joe K1RQG, now SK, had one at 50 feet and it did just about as well.  Major angle of radiation is around 34 degrees, with plenty below that as well.  It works much better than verticals on my New England granite "soil", and it's bidirectional, annoying twice as many people.

[WBear2GCR]

Somewhere in the pull up for that Pythagoras vertical, there is an awful lot of force on the guy and I am wondering about the weight and flop in the toobular "tower" - bending and kinking??

Also, if you get the size guys wrong by a little bit on the "short" side of the  guy length or wrong position, you end up being unable to pull it all the way up! Otoh, if ur "long" there's a bit of flop that could happen...

What is done in practice??

The reason I ask is that a ham (KI2S now SK) locally here had some Rohn 45 that he tried to to a fold over with, building his own tilt-over adapter... he was up about 30ft with the hinge, and had about 40 feet above. The tail of the tiltover adapter couldn't handle the forces and kinked up and bent. It had to be re-made and I don't recall how it managed to stand up in the end. He did this because he did not want to climb and wanted to be able to service the top of the tower, with the beam, etc... so, a lot of weight and force present.

                         _-_-

[W1AEX]

Hey Deano!

Long time no hear! I miss those 3AM chats on 160 meters where we solved most of the world's problems. I have no solution for your vertical mast dilemma but just wanted to say hello!

Last word!

Rob W1AEX

[W1ITT]

For Wb2GCR..
When the structure is laying down, the side guys have the same dimensions as they will when standing up, so no problem there.  In practice, we make the front guy just a bit long and finish it up with a twist of the turnbuckles while finalizing the plumb and tension.  But the front guy prevents the tower from continuing its motion and landing on the back guys, which is where the winch operator is hanging out.
In the case of the Rotary Log array, the tower is a triangular X braced tower and has good structural integrity with just mid and top guys.  I suspect that guys at each 20 foot junction would work OK with 4" aluminum irrigation tubing, given good sleeving at the junction, but that's just a guess so far.
I wouldn't try this on the typical galvanized TV tower masting but  with a sturdy mast or tower it's almost boring.   It took a while to get my noggin out of the 120 degree guy mindset.  If 4 guys are good enough for your Uncle Sam, they'll be good enough for you.  As I mentioned, I haven't messed up any of your tax money so far.
Norm

[WBear2GCR]

Norm,

Tnx for the reply.  Of course you are making one broad assumption, one that may not apply for me! That is that one can lay out the positions for the guys properly, AND that there is a place on the site that works for the ideal guy placement. Not every site is a Kansas cornfield!

[Opcom]

in practice, AB-86 mast kit, instructions. The mast is actually used to locate all the guy stakes and lay out the cables. It is very simple.
http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/txsg/tm11_2651.pdf

Once its up the guy ropes are adjusted to make it straight. They have special fittings that simplify it greatly. Soldiers have to be able to put it up in a few minutes after all.

It does bend and wobble going up. What we did is the man pulling it up would tke the top guy in one hand and the lower two in the other and keep it as straight as possibe going up. At first though the top would bow toward the puller til the mast was up to maybe 20 degrees. Never seen one break. Made not to.

There is a series of pictures of one of these erected next to my M35, to give an idea.
http://bunkerofdoom.com/txsg/2004ftx/FTX2004_PJ0004.html

[WB4AM]

 
 Its been a long time since I have been in here, so hello to all.  I have a
3 element vertical beam here on 75 thats been in disrepair.

Hello,
When you say 3 element vertical beam, do you mean an actual beam that mounts on a single mast?

Or do you mean three vertical masts spaced apart from one another and insulated from ground in a parallel configuration?
Also if this is what you have, how high are your verticals?

If you mean the idea of the second configuration, I may have an idea or a solution that may work for you?  
I would go into details but if the second configuration isn't so?  Also I could send some pics?

Ken


 

[Steve - K4HX]

Good to hear from you Deano. I did not get on the air in the 80M DX window at al this winter, so I missed you. Maybe this coming winter. You always did well from AZ with those verticals. The EU stations go nuts for west coast stuff.

[flintstone mop]

Hi Deane
It has been a very long time. Fair Radio has 40 foot masts that are well made and $350.00 AB-155U
A long time ago during the Y2K joke we bought a complete portable crank up 50 foot mast for $500.00 from someone in Canada. AB-77 WOW!! Took 3 guys to manage the guy wires and careful attention inserting the pieces into the launcher. Wonderful way to get something 50 feet up in the air. No pulling or bending or hoping that it didn't fail.
I'm sure the manager of the group grabbed that out of the storage unit when he retired.
One of those "I shudda" moments.

Fred

[flintstone mop]

I tried to edit my info and the amfone crashed...

It was the AB-577 mast I was referencing to......
Fred