Battling EQ's

[flintstone mop]

This is not quite Amateur radio but kinda connects to the AM mode.
I know that AM broadcast has limiters that are frequency sensitive and are adjusted for the "station sound". Usually 6 bands?
I am currently having an EQ battle with WBCQ on my radio show.
Allan has very aggressive processing. I think he said they use the familiar CRL trio of processors and an Inovonics limiter with its frequency bands.
The audio I hear is atrocious. Seems like they want to make a cassette tape sound like hi-fi. Must be a 12dB increase starting at 2-4 kc. I know they brick wall 5kc for shortwave broadcast.
The bass frequencies seemed masked by the higher freqs. Talking in the microphone, beautiful audio. Even a little sibilance on S's using the 8kc filter on my 390A. A lot of terms used in this chatter are normal lingo for audio folks, bear with me.
Certain songs, where there is a quiet spot in the tune, sound out of this world!! But when it gets back into the high energy audio, WBCQ processors are overwhelmed and it I see the LINE LEVEL meter on my 390A is jittering from the very very fast processor action on certain freqs. CRL processors can really crap out music, if adjusted that way. Cymbals and certain drums are ducked by the processing and it sounds like crap.
If the board operator has all controls fully CW then that would explain the shity sound I hear. Normally the board should indicate about mid-scale on the meters. I don't want to get into any audio battles with Allan or the ops.
I tried a trick on a show and reduced my record levels about 6dB and removed all compression, and the program was excellent until the next broadcast a week later. Apparently they caught on to my reduced levels and cranked everything up and back to the shity sound.
Another time I sent my show to the station at normal record levels and processed the entire file into ALL HARD LIMITING. Thinking that one steady un-relenting audio level would tame things down, but it created a busy sound in the transmitted audio. VERY loud but you would not want to listen to more than 10 minutes of crunched audio.
So I'm thinking that if I were to process in the opposite direction WBCQ processes, when they air my show, I might be a winner. Is there is such a box that would actively adjust EQ according to some pre-sets and maintain that contour or EQ.  If the source was really bright and it would kill the brightness and a tune that was not so bright allow some increase, but not go past the settings.
I found that almost 12dB decrease in my upper audio from 2-4 kc took care of most of the crap sound, but now any music from vinyl, let's say, would be permanently dulled down, because of the dial settings of my EQ.
I'm thinking of an electronically variable EQ.
Guessing that I would have to buy back an Inovonics 236 limiter and put that into my audio chain for recording. DUNNO...any thoughts from broadcast type folks here???
Thanks
Fred......MOPRADIO

[ka4koe]

What is your program?

[kb3ouk]

I remember hearing either Allan or Timtron saying that the whole reason behind their EQ curve being set that way it is was exactly what you said, make cassette tapes sound great. Sounds like the first thing you want to start with is trying to counter their EQ, sounds like they are really boosting their high end, so you're gonna have to boost your low end. It would be nice to know what their frequency response is like after the EQ, to see what exactly is getting boosted and what's being passed through or getting dropped down.

[Steve - K4HX]

Who uses cassettes these days?  QTF?  

[WA3VJB]

Fred you've got two challenges, equalization and dynamic range.

If they're using the "three box" CRL, the initial box is a slow acting AVC, and the final box is a fast acting peak / RMS limiter.  The middle box has the most effect.

The CRL SEC-400 uses a dynamic EQ on the four compression channels, so the box responds and counteracts the input to deliver what the output settings demand.  That will minimize the effect of EQ and dynamic range you can control at your end of it.

You've already noticed how your -6db delivery was counteracted, either by the boxes or by someone riding level on the playback channel to hit the boxes at a level the station desires. There is a two-stage gate that can be set for -10 or -20 db, below which the compression overlay is not active or is minimal.  If they've got it set at -20, your program material probably never drops low enough to deactivate the compression scheme.  

And the initial box can guarantee a level that never triggers the gate as fed to the SEC-400, so you're stuck there too.

If they've got the compressor CRL acting most heavily on the upper (#3) and lower (#2) midrange channels, perhaps if you create a hole in your EQ in that range, then you may force more compression from the #1 (bass) and #4 (treble) channels. And, if they aren't running anything above 5Kc, you've only got #1 (bass) to try to fool.

Even if you were to dial in a huge amount of low end, and attenuate what Channels 2 and 3 get, I don't think you'll be able to substantially flatten out the midrange lump they apparently have dialed in. The compressor will probably just exaggerate the overtones of the music and voice, and you'll sound like Ron Boot.

If you are one of Alan's paying customers, it seems to me you "own" some degree of control over how your product is presented. Good luck with that. I will guess they don't staff the place all the time where someone could get a memo to defeat or minimize their compression scheme during YOUR program.

[flintstone mop]

What is your program?

Thank You Thank you
Paul and Shelby and Ka4KOE.
I have a music show on 7490 WBCQ 7-8PM Fridays Fred Flintstone Music Show. Rock from the 1970's and later, sometimes an oldie show from the 50's and 60's.
Paul, you might have hit the nail pretty square. Something changed at the station that really took away any control I had over my program.
One of the ops did some tweeking a year ago and I raved and raved about the sound and he really caught hell from Allan and was told NOT to touch the settings. I never heard the station sound the way he set it up. No artifacts on any audio and still limited to 5kc upper audio.
And you are correct again that the lowest audio levels will still be boosted to max modulation. None of my music has an ending. The song fades and there is still 100% modulation, so I talk over the song and you will hear the ending. I guess Allan has dialed in for the bozo effect where the board levels can be mid scale or barely moving and you have max modulation.

Allan was un-clear how to create a better sound. Something about dropping 1kc about 2dB and everything else flat with very minor compression. Not what I am hearing on the receiving end.


What I have done is to reset my EQ when I am recording my show to: Drop 1kc about 3dB and 2 and 4 kc almost 10dB. 5kc is almost flat to give a little sibilance.
63hz I dropped about 10dB cuz it is the familiar Timtron bass that he likes. 63 hz makes that boomy muddy sound.
40 and 50hz are boosted about 4dB and 80 hz 4dB to give that doom doom sound on the bass freqs from the oldies music. Believe me, this took years to figure out the curve at WBCQ and waiting for the good propagation to start making decisions. I even stuck a consumer type audio spectrum analyzer on the diode load and can see the freqs that are peaked. It's a matter of remembering what I see when I record a show by watching the analyzer and the Dorrough meters for the density of my audio.

I got so disgusted with the recent audio from the station that I played back a show with my present EQ and with the audio console's parametric equalizer, I was able to copy the screechy sound I hear now and came up with the possible setting at WBCQ. At least 10-12 dB boost at 2-4 kc and the processor is focused on that upper energy, that the lower freqs are squashed.


Hey Paul I found some nice studio pics from KTRK. That was a nice studio and the TX was all SS and probably capable of DC to light audio. The TX audio was out of this world. You or Pam recorded some on-air stuff from your 390A. I would swear it was an FM radio station!!!
 



There is a member here who has some nice Orban boxes for sale but I called and he said it would be hard to counteract how the station is setup for. He engineers for several AM's, K3TKJ call, never got the name. He has some audio gear for sale on AMFONE, first page. He asked if they have modern processors. For my show they can create a "recipe" of settings just for my show to give a nice audio characteristic and switch back for 'normal programming'. I'm dreaming.

I'll stay tuned.
Thanks
Fred

[kb3ouk]

I also remember hearing Timtron saying he tweaked the audio to sound the way he thought was good, and not too long after that Allan set it back to the way it was before.

[Opcom]

This happened at a local music format station here. The owner wants it set a certain way to get the most out of the commercials, and uses that as a sales tool. The audio quality of the old music is a little tiring and unremarkable. It's not distorted amplitude wise, but as you say. Been like this for years. I just live with it. Hope you can find a way not to, as a matter of professional pride in your work, not having 'settings' step on it.

[WA3VJB]

Fred I seem to remember they were running an Optimod on the station at Ft. Meade. 

And yes, I pre-set the R390A at home that morning, and asked Pam to make the recording when I met up with you guys for our "air shift," huh-HA !

Was that the Moment in Time where you knew you wanted to be a Boss Jock ?   I know you really had a good time.

For others -- here's what we're talking about:

http://amwindow.org/pix/htm/ktrk.htm

[flintstone mop]

Those were really interesting days, where the focus was on technology, my work, and the AM mode. These old film pictures my wife found, almost make me sick to see the amount of Ham equipment that went through my hands. I would be embarrassed to list them here.
And Shelby, I would trust Timtron's set up and I could always tell when he had visited the station.
Allan's hearing may be the reason for these settings, or he just wants it that way for his Allan Weiner Worldwide show when he is live from his Florida retreat. I do not know if he uses phone lines or the internet to be on the air.
Paul, you know Uncle Sam has the money for the best stuff. KTRK, until the real KTRK in Texas complained, was the ultimate pirate station. All mobile, even the antenna system, studios on wheels, and the latest gizmos for a great AM sound.
I think if I duck the offending audio freqs by -10dB, I can offset somewhat the settings at WBCQ.
Fred

[K5UJ]

I'd just supply a recording with absolutely no processing on the music.  Voice/mic audio equalized to deal with the mic's response curve,  or just use a 528 box, but use just enough correction to achieve a live sound, i.e. no extreme processing.

I run the SEP400B (It's SEP not SEC, --Spectral Energy Processor) into the PMC450.  I got the pair from a small 1 KW station in Texas.  It's a nice combination when set up for some mid-range density and punch but I'm not playing music.  I run mine at how to say it, "medium intrusion" -- if you really crank them to crunch the audio it can get pretty nasty -- think of some of the slopbucket qrm-test stations.

[WA3VJB]

Hey Fred, if you wanted to try to out-fox their audio processing, here's what they might be using:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRL-Systems-SEC-400-Spectral-Energy-Compressor-/150731559783

Orban's website has the manual, too:

ftp://ftp.orban.com/CRL/SEC400%20Manual.pdf

I saw a shot of the rack at the Ft. Meade station over on Steve's page, yeup, there's an Orban pair.  Remember how everything was redundant?  Not only the best the federal government could buy, but two of anything.  THAT's the kind of "running spares" I wish I could have, har !


Not to stray too far from your audio dilemma ... but your point about the ultimate pirate station got me a-thinkin'

I tried to find a contemporary reference to the DoD modules and system we played with at Ft. Meade 17 years ago this month (!!!). Looks like they've gone to FM, which makes sense.  The AM setup, I seem to recall, was brought forward because of the mountainous terrain around Bosnia, the region where they planned to deploy the station after it was tested.

I also see where companies in the time since then have developed and refined the "unipole" design as a field-deployable antenna.  THAT creates some possibilities if we ever wanted to find a McMartian or something and go portable from somewhere, eh?

Check this out.  Only takes three people to put it up.
You buy it, I'm ready.
http://www.lbagroup.com/products/transportable-mw-antenna-systems

[kb3ouk]

Something else that I just thought about, since a good bit of WBCQ's paid programming is talk, wonder if he might have the audio chain set up for that?

[K5UJ]

Well what do you know.  Never heard of the SEC400; looks like it is maybe a later version of the SEP.  My mistake.   What I like about the gear from that period is its lack of complexity.  Knobs that do one thing.   Pretty easy to set up.  No menus, no memories, none of that.  You almost don't need the manual.   No back up batteries to replace--no worry about losing presets.  I got one of those Behringer 5 band compressors once.  What a nightmare.  I gave up on it after spending several hours in two sessions--it was insane and the manual stank.  Also, if the battery ever dies in that thing you lose everything, including the processing firmware encoded in the chips.   100% dead box.  I got the SEP400B and had the sound I wanted in about 15 minutes.

[WA3VJB]

Yeah CRL had some really effective boxes in the late 1970s, early 1980s.


The CRL model chronology is as you suspect --

the SEC400 is a descendant of your SEP400(A,B)

the AGC400 developed out of the earlier APP300

the PMC450 that you've got is the final iteration of the PMC300(A)

The Orban website has PDF copies of most manuals/schematics from the CRL line, and on audio & b'cast forums you can find entire pages of audio discussion devoted to how the CRL ranks among Gates, Dorrough, Collins, CBS, Pacific Recorders & Engineering, and other analog processors of the era.  

They're well-regarded.

[flintstone mop]

Good one Paul,
Use the device from eBay to do the opposite of WBCQ. I'm ALMOST tempted.....but tax time is near and I'm scared!! Really!!
I'm gonna give it a shot with my Setup for this week and listen.
I was hoping for electronic control of the EQ to go along with my various sources. A lot of the vinyl was transferred to digital in my library, (nice smooth audio) and a good bunch of files come from other libraries folks have shared with me. (generally good audio) The "remixes, re-digitized RE-mastered stuff is really bright and compressed to hell. (downloads from Amazon) Sounds great on playback at home, but over the radio and WBCQ's present settings drives the processors into max squash. I can see the increase in density, without my compressor, on the Dorrough meters with these types of music.
Yes, it is mostly chit chat radio, but most of the inquiries from listeners and DX folks is the music programming on the weekends. Signal drifted many times into S. Africa and Eastern Europe. The station HAD nice audio for both types of programs to air, until we got into this screechy audio mode.
Interesting thread and I'm looking really hard at that SEC 400............
Fred

[flintstone mop]

I have seen software that will do this electronic EQ, but that's another layer of crap I have to do to send the show out the door, but cheaper than the CRL box hmmmmmm

[W8IXY]

Hi Fred,

Part of what I do is design the presets for the Omnia ONE AM audio processor here at Telos/Omnia/Axia.   I have had extensive experience with many types of audio processors going back to the 50's with the old tube type stuff, including all the Omnia processors, and many Orban processors.

It sounds like the CRL's at WBCQ have plenty of gain control action, so I would not recommend adding any kind of compression, limiting or clipping on the programs you send to WBCQ (except maybe a small amount only as needed to some mic processing).

Try dialing in a notch, about 5 - 7 db centered around 1600Hz.  On a one octave EQ, your "notch" would start having an effect around 800 Hz, and flattening out again around 3200 Hz.  I have found that centering a "notch" around 1600 Hz is the most effective setting to reduce the "nasality" of common program audio.

Otherwise, the more you try to EQ, in or out.....whatever you subtract, the processors will add back in.  Good luck.

73
Ted
W8IXY

[W2VW]

I got one of those Behringer 5 band compressors once.  What a nightmare.  I gave up on it after spending several hours in two sessions--it was insane and the manual stank.  Also, if the battery ever dies in that thing you lose everything, including the processing firmware encoded in the chips.   100% dead box. 

Yes they are difficult but the backup battery does not make it a dead box when it fails.

If you encountered one that would not boot and looked processor stupid it was likely a trio of power supply capacitors.

[WA3VJB]

Fred --

I presume these 2009 archives are from the "bad" days of good audio.

http://www.wbcq.com/?p=157

For example, many people probably know what this song is supposed to sound like.   If the recording is off the air, it's doing pretty well.

http://www.radionewyorkinternational.com/archives/867-5309/2008-0208%20867-5309.mp3

Indeed, I've heard this one on 3885 and whoever mistakenly played it didn't have their audio sorted out nearly as well.

[flintstone mop]

Almost got it figgered out. Sounded like a real nice AM station tonight.
Not giving out any secrets.
Thanks for the tips, guys
Fred

[flintstone mop]

Hello
Still looking for a multiband compressor. Almost had a software solution but the seller could not transfer the license.
But here is what  WBCQ is using for pre-limiter compressor

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Texar-Audio-Prism-Broadcast-Multi-Band-Compressor-Expander-Stereo-Pair-/321079297274?pt=US_Vintage_Pro_Audio_Equipment&hash=item4ac1d144fa

Texar Prism
And an Inovonics limiter......direct from Allan Weiner......No optimods ...no CRL boxes...
That's the dope from MOP radio