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Author Topic: odd oscillation in 4-1000 deck  (Read 8387 times)
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Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« on: August 09, 2012, 10:50:13 PM »

After  doing some wiring and installing that CRT in the RF deck, I had to get it off the bench and so put it back in the transmitter because I needed the space to fix something.

At that point I had to test the Tucker out again, just wanted to turn it on. I didn't get too far, as there is some strange little oscillation apparently between the screen and grid. It does not involve the plate that I can tell.

I do not recall changing anything, and I can't believe that adding a ceramic and glass CRT should have any effect on the circuit, which was extremely stable before. Note the CRT is not hooked up, it is just "there" for now. The distance from the bottom of the 4-1000 socket terminals to the metal in the CRT electron gun must be at least 3". I don't see how the presence of the CRT could be the cause.

Normal conditions of
plate 3KV
screen 500V
bias -150V
On this unit, the grid is swamped with a 3200 Ohm NI resistor through a 0.01uF/2500V mica transmitting cap. It has always been super-stable.

dummy load on output, input terminated (or open, does not matter)

I then adjust the bias to allow some small current, like 50mA, through the plate. This is a little check, to see that the tube can be controlled and all is hooked up correctly. It's the first thing I do when reinstalling the RF deck. At that point the screen current goes up to about 70mA and the relay trips.

The plate tuning does not matter and there is no output power, but as the grid tuning is turned, the oscillation rises until the screen overload relay activates. This is the most weird thing I have ever seen.

I guess I have to pull it back out again and look. Maybe I need the proper CRT shield, I don't have one yet but how could the thing oscillate with a 3200 Ohm resistor & blocking cap from grid to ground, and there be little or no current drawn to make it so?



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Opcom
Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 11:09:08 PM »

grid is the  MB-40 with the large swamping resistor and blocking capacitor shown. Nothing was changed in there.


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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 07:16:23 AM »

Patrick,
          Look at yer grid input /neutralizing circuit closely. According to yer skizmatic you have a series tuned circuit right from the plate to the grid. I would also think hard about removing the direct ground from the one filament pin and doing the "artificial center tap" thing instead.
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 10:24:57 AM »

I won't say that's not it, but the arrangement is right from Z1 the MB-40 tank circuit manual. C2 is the neutralizing probe, C1 is the mirror of the 4-1000's grid capacitance. I thought this has been the way these tubes were to be neutralized using a balanced tank circuit.
What is a better way to set up the MB-40 and neutralize the tube?

It worked well before I installed the CRT, which is the thing that bothers me now. The reason for the grid swamping is to get a better match from the driver but it was not necessary to prevent oscillation. I'd like to change the filament arrangement. It would require one more connection from the deck to the metering panel. There is an argument for grounding one side though, that it avoids filament bypass caps from having to conduct plate RF return current to the cathode and to avoid common cathode return path impedances. Perhaps these are for VHF use, but the guy that wrote the article had used many 4-1000's.

I'll have to go though this with a fine tooth comb.

* taming_the_4-1000_W6YY.pdf (702.03 KB - downloaded 249 times.)
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N4zed
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 10:59:48 AM »

MMMMM I can just smell that Memo-graph blue copy now....!! Wink
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Ken<br />N4zed
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 11:00:46 AM »

many guys wrote artcles but few got the 4-1000A to be stable 160 through 10m.
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 03:06:29 PM »

speaking of the MB-40: single-page article in QST, February 1956, pg. 45.
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 04:51:26 PM »

The neutralization circuit doesn't look right to me.  I don't see the purpose of C1.  Kinda a cross between "grid neutralization" with balanced grid circuit as used for triodes and "bridge neutralization" as described in the Eimiac literature for tetrodes.  Maybe I'm missing something.

I had stability issues wit my 4-1000 until I used the bridge neutralized circuit from the Eimac book.  I think the ARRL handbook has the same circuit, with a tab of metal next to the tube forming the neutralization capacitor.  Mine is stable as a rock on 160-20M with no grid swamping resistor.  It does not use the MB-40 however.
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Opcom
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 11:37:38 PM »

MMMMM I can just smell that Memo-graph blue copy now....!! Wink
There was the "smellevision" fad at movie houses. I'd like to resample those old solvent odors from the days of my youth and hand cranked copiers, but alas.. Like a bad but funny sci-fi movie where all household food, chemcials, and waste was pumped/transported through a plethora of dedicated pipes and tubing interconnecting residences with central plants, it might have been possible to share the aromas of seasoned old radios and MFP over the internet if infrastructure had evolved differently.

many guys wrote articles but few got the 4-1000A to be stable 160 through 10m.
This I don't doubt. It's always been a popular tube. The cited "memo-graph" article was included in the weighty tome concerning the transmitter, that I was allowed to copy. Because of that I have adhered to the writings therein. I admit that the article was sent to the builder, Colonel Tucker, because of his many problems getting rid of the instability caused by a 20" plate line (he was a BC man, not used to full HF or VHF) and his unfortunate reliance on a new but defective RF power meter.

speaking of the MB-40: single-page article in QST, February 1956, pg. 45.
It's here. I believe fair use of this single page applies in this case and would like to discuss it.

The neutralization circuit doesn't look right to me.  I don't see the purpose of C1.  Kinda a cross between "grid neutralization" with balanced grid circuit as used for triodes and "bridge neutralization" as described in the Eimiac literature for tetrodes.  Maybe I'm missing something.

I had stability issues wit my 4-1000 until I used the bridge neutralized circuit from the Eimac book.  I think the ARRL handbook has the same circuit, with a tab of metal next to the tube forming the neutralization capacitor.  Mine is stable as a rock on 160-20M with no grid swamping resistor.  It does not use the MB-40 however.
C1 is a value chosen to be the same value as the 4-1000 grid capacitance. Its purpose is to balance the tuned circuit against the grid to ground capacitance on the opposite side of the MB-40, which I believe we may consider to be a standard LC tank for this purpose but I could be wrong.

The neutralizing cap C2 is a metal rod of #10 wire passing up through the chassis. I believe it serves the same purpose as the metal tab. The swamping is only to improve the match at different frequencies without having to add extra coils as shown in the ARRL document and in a few other places. It is easily driven from 80-10 and does not seem to take too much power, not the 70W described in the article. The link works best fully engaged in this case and has been set to 4 turns.

I guess I have to pull it back out again and look. Maybe I need the proper CRT shield, I don't have one yet but how could the thing oscillate with a 3200 Ohm resistor & blocking cap from grid to ground, and there be little or no current drawn to make it so?

Didn't I tell you somewhere else that the filament leads going to the 4-1000 were too long? Remove them and make them twister pair. If necessary get some of the same size wire with modern insulation just a little bit longer and twist them together if the existing wires are too short to twist. Even if you use the grounded center tap scheme I would still twist the filament wires together. Just having the metal from the CRT next to them is probably causing a problem. Chances are that is the problem.
There is no way to shorten them.. I could twist them or run a 'zip cord' pair which ought to be the same. There is some 10 GA speaker wire around here. Considering the filament is grounded at one side and heavily bypassed, I don't see the point but it is one of the things I will try. What would be the real difference between twist and zip cord arrangements? That circuit is got to be at very low impedance.

How much RF current can really flow in the cathode of a 4-1000 at full bore? Peak maybe 6A? That across that fat GND tab should have eliminated other worries.

As for the CRT being too close to the socket, I'm not convinced unless the 'floating' electron gun structure is coupling RF elsewhere. The capacitance between any 4-1000 element and that entire CRT should be very low, only a few pF. I recently learned the CRT has a resistive helical post deflection accelerator and that it goes from about where the blue ceramic begins, all the way to the phosphor screen of the CRT. It is supposed to be spec at 200-1500 Meg Ohms.
(Thanks to a book on CRTs. "The cathode Ray Tube - Technology, History, and Applications" by Peter A. Keller., who was also kind enough to send me a copy of the data sheet on the tube in question. Did anyone suspect that Tektronix CRTs would have EIA registrations? I thought they were strictly in-house proprietary components. This one, from a 545, a "5ELP2")

This makes my request in "wanted" for a proper CRT shield all the more important to the project. I can ground a shield. I can't ground the stuff in the tube and the RF needs to be kept away from it even though the effect ought to be almost negligible.

Finally I have not measured the frequency of the oscillation. That ought to give a better clue as to where the parasite is. I should have time to do this next week as I am on vacation AUG 03-19 and have today completed almost the last chore except for starting and running two seldom used vehicles and removing the stale gasoline from the ATV.

* MB-40_QST_1956_02.pdf (338.68 KB - downloaded 248 times.)
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Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 12:04:29 AM »

About the QST circuit, The difference seems to be that he's isolated the low frequency capacitor frame (rotor) from ground. I could do that by changing the added drive shaft from aluminum to a phenolic rod and removing the ground wires.

Otherwise in the QST diagram, he is coupling the plate through the neut. cap C3 directly to the center or frame on the MB-40. I do not see why this would be better. He did not say what C2 is, but it may be the existing bypass cap bear the RFC. If so, it is not clear what the effect of the plate end of the neutralizing scheme does, as that cap is IIRC rather large and almost all of the neutralizing voltage would be shunted to GND unless C3 is much more than a probe.
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Gito
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 05:36:13 AM »

Hy

Maybe just a loose B+ at the plate cap off the 4-1000 when reiinstaling the RF deck ,without A B+,the screen would soars up

Gito
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 08:31:02 PM »

That is something I will check. It does act like there's almost no DC 'plate' gain, but I put the cap back on and nothing in there should have been fiddled with. This coming week I am off work and would be a good time to go over that RF deck in every detail including the top side. Maybe I broke something loose while handling the plate cap and didn't see it. Maybe I have slowly burned something out in the plate circuit and now it broke. The CRT job demanded a lot of up-ending and movement, and the heavy deck is not easy to handle as lightly as if it were on a pillow.

Despite the several design issues, the RF deck was so extremely stable before the CRT install that this baffles me. It had been used a couple times to load-test the plate supply by taking 800-1000W and some much larger peaks like 600-1000mA pulses through the 4-1000 with no signal, like a big class A amp, and there was never a meter wiggle or a peep out of it RF wise.

"Fine tooth comb" time. I'll be borrowing the cats' flea comb for this one.
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« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 10:05:39 AM »

after you twist those heater wires you might consider slipping them through some RG8 shield terminated to gnd at both ends.
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2012, 11:58:44 PM »

During some testing there is now a low Ohm short on the bias input. Based on the principle of what blew up points to the trouble, time to pull the deck out again. The parasitic was found. It is about 80MHz and is involving the neutralizing probe, tons of voltage there.

On the list is changing the neutralizing to the type circuit shown in "single-page article in QST, February 1956, pg. 45". Its possible I cooked the bias RFC and bypass cap on the MB40 and that's the short. To be honest I don't know where I came up with the present circuit -my mistake no doubt. Try try again. Twisted pair for the filament is possible. The filament voltage meter however is referenced to GND so it would mean another connection. The whole underside of the RF deck needs cleaned up anyway and looks like a rats nest with spliced wires and the like.

In some ways I'm tired of the many connections on the rear apron. Each is a PL259 and SO239. A single big connector for everything except plate voltage would be as well.

When I got the TX years ago, some wise soul told me to dismantle and use for parts. But no. I had to go and try to fix it.
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