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Author Topic: W1VTP station update - ground system installed in shack  (Read 15837 times)
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w1vtp
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2011, 05:26:15 PM »

Fred

I don't think you were directly referring to me about bonding the grounds rods together (see my last upload - the ground rods will be bonded together via the 8" ground strap outside the shack.

However, the "stickey wicket" will be bonding the AC ground to the ground system.  Gotta talk to my electrician about that.  Running #4 gage wire to the control panel after the shack has been buttoned up may be a bit of a problem but I may have to deal with it because of GFI issues after plugging in my equipment with a grounded plug and hooking them up to the ground buss.

We'll see.  

Al
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gerry_w1id
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2011, 06:29:33 PM »

Hello Al, my name is Gerry. I used to be WA1VWL and I live in the same town. We met a few times in the distant past. I'm thinking about upgrading the shack and maybe get a tower in the near future. What/where are the city building codes I should know about? I see your tower is attached to the eaves. I wonder how they treat that as far as total height. For example I'm thinking of a ground mounted 40' tower and attach it to the eaves at the 20' level.
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K5UJ
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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2011, 07:23:11 PM »


Another thought,  If your bonding ground wire runs near or past a water pipe in the basement, bond your bonding wire to the water pipe at that point.  You could then also continue the bonding wire to the AC service ground electrode as defined.

Fred

Okay Fred thanks; that is a good idea about the water pipe; I had not thought of that before.

rob
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KA2DZT
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2011, 03:13:59 AM »


Another thought,  If your bonding ground wire runs near or past a water pipe in the basement, bond your bonding wire to the water pipe at that point.  You could then also continue the bonding wire to the AC service ground electrode as defined.

Fred

Okay Fred thanks; that is a good idea about the water pipe; I had not thought of that before.

rob

Rob,

The reason to bond to a nearby water pipe is to prevent flash over to the pipe, even though the ground wire is on its way to the service ground.

After nearly 45 yrs in the antenna installation business I've seen many lightning strikes.  Had one on a CB antenna that was grounded.  The lightning followed the coax into the basement and flashed over to a water pipe that the coax ran near.  It punched a hole in the pipe.  I told the customer, I guess the water put the fire out.  Just another example of a poor ground being worse than no ground.

I stopped driving ground rods into the ground at customer's homes probably over 30 yrs ago.  I grounded the shield of the coax lead-in to the AC service ground.  I did this by the easiest method that required the least amount of ground wire.  The ground wire could be 12cu or 10al.  If I ran that wire to the service ground, that was all I needed.  But, if I ran the ground wire to a separate rod, I then had to bond that rod to the AC service ground with 6cu.

I would always try to mount the antenna above a location that was near the AC service.  Or a location where I could pick up a water pipe to ground to.  These ground connections could be outside or in the basement near where the coax would be running.  Most often I didn't ground the mast, just the shield on the coax.  If lightning hit the antenna it was going to run down the coax regardless, even if there was a ground wire running from the mast.  Most all TV antennas have VHF elements that are insulated from the boom and mast.  That was another reason to ground the coax shield more so than the mast.  The outer shield of the coax has less inductance than a thin ground wire.  Although, I did ground many masts wherever it was possible. 

On high-rise and other commercial buildings, antennas where grounded to the nearest electrical metal conduit, usually inside the elevator room.  On many flat roof buildings (like strip malls, one two stories) antennas were mounted right to the side of a roof air conditioner.  This grounded the mast and I added a ground block on the coax which was screwed to the metal frame of the air conditioner.  That was all the grounding that could be done.

On a flat roof, rule number one, never screw anything into the roof, it will leak.  The roof air conditioner was the only other thing I had to work with.  Over the years I mounted many antennas to air conditioners and never had a complaint.

Fred
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KA2DZT
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2011, 03:42:53 AM »

Fred

I don't think you were directly referring to me about bonding the grounds rods together (see my last upload - the ground rods will be bonded together via the 8" ground strap outside the shack.

However, the "stickey wicket" will be bonding the AC ground to the ground system.  Gotta talk to my electrician about that.  Running #4 gage wire to the control panel after the shack has been buttoned up may be a bit of a problem but I may have to deal with it because of GFI issues after plugging in my equipment with a grounded plug and hooking them up to the ground buss.

We'll see.  

Al

Al,

I was just giving a general description of the way I think the grounding should be done.  I know your ground rods will be connected to the copper strap you have.  I saw your pics.

Bonding the station ground rod (or rods) to the AC service ground is code and should be done.  I would connect the #4 cu to the copper strap near where it enters the shack,  either just inside or outside.  You can run the #4 cable inside to the AC panel.  No reason why it can't lay on the floor

OK on the GFI issues.  Why are you using GFI's on the station equipment??

Does the new building have a separate AC service or is it a sub panel powered through a 4 conductor service cable runing from your house AC service?  Is the new building attached to the house or separated?

Fred
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w1vtp
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2011, 11:30:31 PM »



<snip>
  You can run the #4 cable inside to the AC panel.  No reason why it can't lay on the floor

OK on the GFI issues.  Why are you using GFI's on the station equipment??

Does the new building have a separate AC service or is it a sub panel powered through a 4 conductor service cable runing from your house AC service?  Is the new building attached to the house or separated?

Fred

Fred

re: ground to service panel.  That'll be a job for my electrician.  I don't do that kind of work.  RE: GFI, don't have an answer for that except that apparently my station 110 is tied into the work bench which is GFI'd.  Found out that when my Courier set it off recently.  Surprised the hell out of me.  This was coded for a garage.  Might that be the reason?

Al
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KA2DZT
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« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2011, 01:15:14 AM »



<snip>
  You can run the #4 cable inside to the AC panel.  No reason why it can't lay on the floor

OK on the GFI issues.  Why are you using GFI's on the station equipment??

Does the new building have a separate AC service or is it a sub panel powered through a 4 conductor service cable runing from your house AC service?  Is the new building attached to the house or separated?

Fred

Fred

re: ground to service panel.  That'll be a job for my electrician.  I don't do that kind of work.  RE: GFI, don't have an answer for that except that apparently my station 110 is tied into the work bench which is GFI'd.  Found out that when my Courier set it off recently.  Surprised the hell out of me.  This was coded for a garage.  Might that be the reason?

Al

GFI's are usually required for garages, outside, bath outlets.

If the building was coded for a garage is probably why there are GFI's.

Check with your electrician to see if they can be changed to regular breakers.

No reason you should need GFI's for the station or the work bench.

Fred
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KD6VXI
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« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2011, 05:45:21 PM »



<snip>
  You can run the #4 cable inside to the AC panel.  No reason why it can't lay on the floor

OK on the GFI issues.  Why are you using GFI's on the station equipment??

Does the new building have a separate AC service or is it a sub panel powered through a 4 conductor service cable runing from your house AC service?  Is the new building attached to the house or separated?

Fred

Fred

re: ground to service panel.  That'll be a job for my electrician.  I don't do that kind of work.  RE: GFI, don't have an answer for that except that apparently my station 110 is tied into the work bench which is GFI'd.  Found out that when my Courier set it off recently.  Surprised the hell out of me.  This was coded for a garage.  Might that be the reason?

Al

GFI's are usually required for garages, outside, bath outlets.

If the building was coded for a garage is probably why there are GFI's.

Check with your electrician to see if they can be changed to regular breakers.

No reason you should need GFI's for the station or the work bench.

Fred

Unless you have a radio with a leaky cap to the chassis.  In that case, a GFI might save your ass.

Been there, done that.

--Shane
KD6VXI
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KA2DZT
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« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2011, 01:36:56 AM »



<snip>
  You can run the #4 cable inside to the AC panel.  No reason why it can't lay on the floor

OK on the GFI issues.  Why are you using GFI's on the station equipment??

Does the new building have a separate AC service or is it a sub panel powered through a 4 conductor service cable runing from your house AC service?  Is the new building attached to the house or separated?

Fred

Fred

re: ground to service panel.  That'll be a job for my electrician.  I don't do that kind of work.  RE: GFI, don't have an answer for that except that apparently my station 110 is tied into the work bench which is GFI'd.  Found out that when my Courier set it off recently.  Surprised the hell out of me.  This was coded for a garage.  Might that be the reason?

Al

GFI's are usually required for garages, outside, bath outlets.

If the building was coded for a garage is probably why there are GFI's.

Check with your electrician to see if they can be changed to regular breakers.

No reason you should need GFI's for the station or the work bench.

Fred

Unless you have a radio with a leaky cap to the chassis.  In that case, a GFI might save your ass.

Been there, done that.

--Shane
KD6VXI

That's why all your equipment should be grounded through the electrical plug to the AC ground.  Added separate grounds from the chassis to the AC ground should also be used.

GFI's are used where someone might be using an electrical device outdoors or in bathrooms.  Many times small electrical devices used in bathrooms run with a two wire plug and the metal componets are not grounded or maybe you drop your shaver in water.  Or, even using the device with wet hands.  Same thing with outdoor devices,  something being used may only have a two wire plug.  The user may be standing on wet ground and the device may short or leak to the frame.  An ungrounded motor can leak or ever short to the frame and still run, like for example motors used in electric hedge trimmers.  Or the outdoor device is being used while it's raining.

I'm not a 100% sure but I think a GFI detects an inbalance in the current between the hot leg and the neutral, which makes the GFI trip.  This is the reason the circuit neutral leg is connected back to the GFI along with the hot leg.  The GFI has a separate neutral wire that then gets connected to the panel neutral.

Properly grounded and installed radio equipment does not need to be connected through GFI breakers.  Especially since stray RF currents may cause the GFI to trip.

Fred
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