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Author Topic: Electricity Collected From the Air  (Read 9437 times)
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2010, 01:47:06 PM »

You are expecting brain dead journalist to get the facts correct? What world do you live in?   Grin


The issue I have with the article is that they reference Tesla.

They state: "Nikola Tesla, for example, was among those who dreamed of capturing and using electricity from the air."

Then they state: "But until now, scientists lacked adequate knowledge about the processes involved information and release of electricity from water in the atmosphere, Galembeck said.”

What Tesla proposed and was experimenting with was completely different than what they refer to in the article and want to call "hygroelectricity" Its not even close to being the same thing, but yet they reference it to Tesla.
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2010, 01:55:46 PM »

My jaundiced belief is free markets exist more as an ideal than as a reality.  Subsidies and tariffs are the norm not the exception.  Better get yours if you can.

It was mine until it was forcefully taken from me. Don't take it away from me in the first place.

You're confusing a free market with a fair market. Stop that.

Why distort?  Because you don't care about the "greater good" which is best served by global, unfettered competition but about some lesser good like building a big manufacturing base in your country so later you're the only game in town, or simply lining the pockets of your friends, or making damned sure that in the next war you aren't  missing some critical domestic resource.

Nobody ever invests in an emerging technology (or anything else, for that matter) for the "greater good". Those who do can't afford to do it a second time, because they take a bath the first time. You invest on something that can make your money grow.

And there are some things that markets aren't good at that you might want to promote.  That's the noble side to subsidies and tariffs but I have a hard time being idealistic enough to talk about it.

If there's no market for what you're promoting, there's no market for what you're promoting. That means you have no customers, or not enough to sustain the product or service you are promoting. It's that simple. No amount of subsidy or tariff can alter that fundamental fact, or do your work for you. It's up to you, the producer, to promote your product and sell it. If nobody wants it, then your product cannot sustain itself, and I don't want my hard-earned money taken away from me because someone just won't stop with their money-losing business venture. Insisting that people should buy your product when they don't want it should not earn you a paycheck. Better that you go out of business and turn to selling something people actually do want.

You cannot privatize gain and subsidize loss. That model is unsustainable.

Compelling for me, though, is simply the first one.  Play the game, the real game not the idealistic, fictional game or get squashed.

It's the real game I'm talking about. The idealistic game is the one where your product doesn't sell, so I have to make up the difference indefinitely until it does.

Otherwise, we may not be disagreeing about much.
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K6JEK
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RF in the shack


« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2010, 02:24:26 PM »

Excuse me for not quoting.  It's just getting too long.

Yes.  Nobody ever invests for the "greater good."  That's just what economists think is served by unfettered, global competition.  Governments can screw up a market so much that nobody invests and a market or technology stagnates.

The "noble" case I was referring to are things like drug research for rare diseases.  The drug companies will never see a return so we subsidize the research one way or the other.

"You cannot privatize gain and subsidize loss. That model is unsustainable."  You mean Wall Street?  I just couldn't resist that cheap shot.

"It's the real game I'm talking about. The idealistic game is the one where your product doesn't sell, so I have to make up the difference indefinitely until it does."   Just want to say, agree completely except maybe for a few of the "noble" cases I mentioned and I'm not even sure about very many of those. 
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2010, 06:53:06 PM »

Yea, just because he's a PhD, doesn't mean he knows his history. The reality is that it doesn't matter if it's something Tesla tried in the past or not. It will work or not based on today's technology.
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Ed/KB1HYS
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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2010, 07:16:13 PM »

Perhaps my number seem pessimistic, but they were taken right off of the manufacturers web sites, and I only looked at higher efficiency panels. A LOT of them were listed at less than 10% efficiency.

Inverters have a quiescent current draw, so a lightly loaded inverter is very inefficient while a heavily loaded one would be highly efficient. Since most home owners dont bother to regulate loads, assume an average efficiency.

Most power companies will 'buy back' excess power produced by a home system, although it will be at the 'wholesale rate' which is substantially below what you see on your bill.  Still getting it's money in the right direction.

If I had to build a reliable cheap power source, I'd go with a Gas Generator system and use a big generator. Salvage the waste heat for living space and hot water, and sell back the unused system.  Capturing the waste heat will increase the efficiency to somewhere on the order of 60-70% or better.  Fuel cost (around here) would be free, the town dump charges the tree guys a flat rate per ton for chipped waste, a perfect fuel for gasifiers, I'm sure they'd love to get rid of it for no cost to them.
All I have to do is get off my lazy a$$ and build it...
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73 de Ed/KB1HYS
Happiness is Hot Tubes, Cold 807's, and warm room filling AM Sound.
 "I've spent three quarters of my life trying to figure out how to do a $50 job for $.50, the rest I spent trying to come up with the $0.50" - D. Gingery
K6JEK
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RF in the shack


« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2010, 05:18:21 PM »

Perhaps my number seem pessimistic, but they were taken right off of the manufacturers web sites, and I only looked at higher efficiency panels. A LOT of them were listed at less than 10% efficiency.

Those just have to be thin film panels.  Inefficient but cheap.  Cost/watt still cheaper than silicon.  Mostly used by utility companies who put up acres.  Solar City has begun selling these to home owners.  I wonder if anyone is buying them.  I've never seen them installed.

Inverters have a quiescent current draw, so a lightly loaded inverter is very inefficient while a heavily loaded one would be highly efficient. Since most home owners don't bother to regulate loads, assume an average efficiency.

I just checked the spec on a typical Xantrex inverter.  The lowest efficiency with 240V mains is 88%.  That's at 10% load.  At 30% load efficiency is above 90%.  At 50% it's 95%. The "night time tare loss"  is 1W.
  
Most power companies will 'buy back' excess power produced by a home system, although it will be at the 'wholesale rate' which is substantially below what you see on your bill.  Still getting it's money in the right direction.

Grid connected systems are usually sized no larger than net zero dollars over a year.  There's a monthly bill but you don't pay it. The bills accumulate for a year until a "true up" date. That goes for you owing them money and vice versa.  Power going both ways is priced at retail rates, seasonal, time of use retail rates.

On summer afternoons the panels produce a lot of extra power which the utility buys from you at summer afternoon rates like $.30/kwh.  In the evening and winter you buy power from them at off peak rates like $.11/kwh.   If at the end of a year they owe you money, you either just plain lose it or you get a discounted check.  Those are the bargain basement rates which you try to avoid.  If you've done your homework and sized the system correctly, though, they don't owe you money and you've effectively sold them power at $.30/kwh.

But wait.  There's more. If you are a big user of power and have an escalating rate structure like where I live, the highest tier rates can be something like  $.50/kwh. You're most certainly in that tier on summer afternoons when the AC is cranking.  That's right when a solar panel puts out near peak efficiency so it's offsetting that very expensive power.  You're effectively getting $.50/kwh power from your panels.

That's why the most economically sensible PV systems are sized to just knock you out of the top tiers.  Buy the rest of your power. Just don't buy any $.50 power.

If I had to build a reliable cheap power source, I'd go 4with a Gas Generator system and use a big generator. Salvage the waste heat for living space and hot water, and sell back the unused system.  Capturing the waste heat will increase the efficiency to somewhere on the order of 60-70% or better.  Fuel cost (around here) would be free, the town dump charges the tree guys a flat rate per ton for chipped waste, a perfect fuel for gasifiers, I'm sure they'd love to get rid of it for no cost to them.
All I have to do is get off my lazy a$$ and build it...

Sounds right to me.  Big guys out here are beginning to buy the new whiz, bang fuel cells.  Apparently these save money right off the bat.  They are too big for home use though.  These things:

http://www.bloomenergy.com/
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KB2WIG
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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2010, 09:31:52 PM »

From                               http://www.bloomenergy.com/

" All electrons are not created equal. Only Bloom Energy delivers electrons that are clean and reliable and affordable… all at the same time… and just for you. That makes them better electrons. "


This should be gud fer a while..... ..


klc

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What? Me worry?
K6JEK
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RF in the shack


« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2010, 10:44:11 PM »

From                               http://www.bloomenergy.com/

" All electrons are not created equal. Only Bloom Energy delivers electrons that are clean and reliable and affordable… all at the same time… and just for you. That makes them better electrons. "


This should be gud fer a while..... ..


klc

I don't know about you but I'm careful to use only the very best electrons in my oxygen free power cords.

You could run these things on cow farts but I bet the ones actually installed all run on natural gas.
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