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Author Topic: Thoughts on replacing push pull 8417 tube amp with 807's (or 6146's)?  (Read 13382 times)
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w1vtp
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« on: April 23, 2010, 03:46:56 PM »

I have this amplifier that uses 8417's and it seems to me that those tubes are approaching extinction.  However, the 807 seems to be in decent supply.  This amp runs AB1 with 610V on the plates.  It's rated at 60 watts.  The screen is fixed @ 300V, bias is @ -17.

It looks like the bias on the 807 needs to be ~ double what the 8417 needs for AB1.  Plate to Plate ohms is another story.

Yet another approach would be to remove the current output XFMR and replace it with a multi-match mod xfmr.  I would need to either cut holes in the cover for the extra height.  Yet another thought would be to use the 6146 approach, but the plate to plate is quite a bit higher than the 8417 plus the CG bias is close to -50 volts.

This is a great amplifier and I'd like to keep it in my stable of tube amplifiers.  Thoughts?

Al


* M60 PARTIAL SCHEM.jpg (542.84 KB, 1222x886 - viewed 3877 times.)
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2010, 04:37:11 PM »

Al,
I run about 200 volts on the screens of my 807s in the V2-CDC.
The bias is around -36 if I remember. My plate voltage is 760VDC.
I think 807s would work fine. You could sub mount the sockets.
 
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WQ9E
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« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2010, 04:54:36 PM »

There are instructions on the web for conversion to the much more available/affordable 6550/KT-88 family of tubes:  http://www.triodeel.com/8417.htm 

Might be worth considering.
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Rodger WQ9E
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Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2010, 11:10:46 PM »

I also suggest 6550's because of the current capability and plate dissipation. With other mods like a G2 voltage of 200 and also the bias mod, a 6CD6 will work also and is $6 NOS.
I have subbed 6550's and 6CA7's for 8417's (incl bias mod) with very fine results in the Bogen MO-200.
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w1vtp
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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 08:23:00 AM »

I also suggest 6550's because of the current capability and plate dissipation. With other mods like a G2 voltage of 200 and also the bias mod, a 6CD6 will work also and is $6 NOS.
I have subbed 6550's and 6CA7's for 8417's (incl bias mod) with very fine results in the Bogen MO-200.

HMMM  Do you remember PTP ohms for those tubes?  Height?  I can look that up.  Just thot you'ld remember. 

Second thought -- If I remove the cabinet and mount the whole thing on a STD 19 1/2 rack panel it wouldn't matter

Good suggestions all

Al
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WD5JKO
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« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 09:33:03 AM »



Al,
 
    You have been given some good ideas to consider.

So looking at that schematic you posted, the audio driver was engineered to supply each 8417 G1 with a maximum of 17 volts peak. This is pretty low, and a perfect match to the super high Gm of the 8417. I would do some tests to see if this same driver can be cranked up to 35 volts peak, or 70V grid to grid. You might run into some problems with higher distortion, or worse - clipping.

If the driver is limited, then tubes like the 807 are out. Even the 6CD6 will have high drive needs unless the screen voltage is reduced to 125-150v, but then that will reduce the power capability.

I suggest you look at the available HI-FI tubes with an eye towards grid1 drive in class Ab1 for a given power output. One possibility would be a quad of 7591's which are tiny tubes (size of a 6V6) that boast a 19w Pd rating and high Gm. I use these in RF service with ~ 600v on the plates, and have done so for years without trouble. These in Ab1 service also have low drive needs. You can get these new from EH or JJ for about $70/quad set. with the right transformer, and power supply, a quad of those tubes should put out ~ 100w RMS. In my case in AB1 linear RF service, I get ~ 65w PEP out on 80m with just two of them. I use them in a CE 20A where the small size, high pd, and low CgP (.25pf) makes these great RF tubes.

Jim
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KB3DKS
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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 03:04:11 PM »

Al,

 I did the reverse with the VKII you hear me on. Since the mod drive is direct to the grids of the mod tubes via a reverse connected 600 ohm output transformer and I wanted to use as low a ratio as possible to keep the source imp down the 807s were just not sensitive enough. I have a stash of 8417s and installed a pair with very good results. Lower drive requirement and a better match for the solid stated VKII supplies it seems. Also the 8417s can take a higher screen voltage.
 The 6550s are a good option but getting rare and costly while the current Russian types are still somewhat expensive and not all that good in the long run. Also the heater current requirements must be considered.  Better off with current production EL34s.

That amp diagram looks familiar. What model is it? The MO200? I have had a couple MO100s. Looking for an output transformer for one.

Bill
KB3DKS in 1 Land
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w1vtp
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 03:35:12 PM »

Al,

 

That amp diagram looks familiar. What model is it? The MO200? I have had a couple MO100s. Looking for an output transformer for one.

Bill
KB3DKS in 1 Land

That's the M60 -- an older version.  Good luck on the search for a replacement xfmr.  Hammond?  Lot of $$ tho'

Al
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 08:42:00 PM »

I also suggest 6550's because of the current capability and plate dissipation. With other mods like a G2 voltage of 200 and also the bias mod, a 6CD6 will work also and is $6 NOS.
I have subbed 6550's and 6CA7's for 8417's (incl bias mod) with very fine results in the Bogen MO-200.

HMMM  Do you remember PTP ohms for those tubes?  Height?  I can look that up.  Just thot you'ld remember.  

Second thought -- If I remove the cabinet and mount the whole thing on a STD 19 1/2 rack panel it wouldn't matter

Good suggestions all

Al

The 6550 is a perfect match on the power side because it also wants 600V on the plate and 300v on the screen. One thing to watch is spacing between the tubes. The older coke bottle type 6550 is a lot fatter than an 8417, and the newer cylindrical 6550 is the same size or very close to it. 6CA7 are rather thin and made for higher voltage/lower current.

The 6550 can do 100W into 5K CT at the same plate and screen voltages as in the amp there.

I would not be too concerned about insufficient grid drive. When I did the MO-200, I did not have to mess with the driver due to any shortage of output voltage, but I nonetheless replaced it with a 12AU7 because the original tube was a bit low on emission and was unobtanium.

Here you can find the schematic for the Stromberg-Carlson APH-1200 which uses the same type of phase inverter driver circuit. For sure a dime-a-case 6GH8A can (and has) been substituted with minor component value changes and socket rewiring. The 6GH8A is one of the best tubes for audio (poo-poo'ers may start!!) because it is cheap and was produced in phenominal numbers, since at least three were used in every self-respecting tube type color TV set. I have an unopened case of 100 on the shelf!!  I ought to make a little shrine.
http://www.montagar.com/~patj/aph1200.jpg

For the Bogen MO-200 with 6550's I used a 12AU7 for the driver-phase inverter. Comments are here:
http://www.montagar.com/~patj/bogenspecs.htm

For your amp specifically;

If you slightly increase the value of R46 in your amp and replace C29 with a 100V unit and maybe you will have to upgrade the rectifier CR3, it is easy to get a higher bias voltage.
It may be necessary to decrease the value of R47 slightly.
It should not be necessary to increase the valuse of C30, but C30 is there to act as an impedance without dissipating excess wattage and also as a DC blocker as the hot side of the transformer will have about 300V plus quite a bit of AC on it.
-So C30, R47, and R46 are the voltage divider for the AC input to the bias rectifier.
R45 is just the bleeder, but that is a heavy bleed and its value could be increased to 27K which would help reduce the load on the aforementioned voltage divider in light of the higher DC voltage produced.

It is best to make more bias than you need and use a pot to adjust. They used precision resistors instead of a pot, but who can say what is right for a particular set of tubes as they age? If a pot is going to be used, a good value for bias supply is 55-65V in that circuit with 6550's. I have had good luck adding a pot for adjusting the bias there. I usually have used a 50K or 100K pot, and put it across the C29 position. You can use a 10-turn is you want to nit-pick, but I usually use the single turn kind with a screwdriver adjust and a locking nut.

On the wiper going to the R40 & R42 connection, I usually add a 1-2uF capacitor so that any noise at the pot is removed and to keep the impedance rather low.

It is nit-picking but R41 is the balance compensator, and it is "small" for the 6550 as the value is based on bias voltage as well as cathode current. There is no real need to change it but you could put a 50 Ohm 2 watt WW pot in there. If you put a 10 Ohm resistor in series with the wiper to GND and install a tip jack, it's easy to set the bias, and you can measure any imbalance by putting the zero-center meter meter across the opposite ends of R41.

I hope these suggestions help. If you do the necessary ones, I can almost guarantee it will work properly and trouble-free.
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w1vtp
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 10:15:13 PM »

Guy

This is really great info.  Thanks for the tips.  That Bogen series really had some great amps.  Man -- that M200 must be one heck of an amplifier.

I'm going to save all this info and as soon as I get my new shop the M60 will be one of the several projects slated for the workbench(es)

Al
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 10:25:17 PM »

If you wanna use 807s, David Bogen made a 100 watter that used them. I have one that I got at Hoss Traders years ago. I may even have the schematic.
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WU2D
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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 10:45:31 PM »

The old 807 is cheap and old school. Most amplifiers used them at 35 Watts out or so but you can ask for more. They have good maximums. Ever seen the 807W? Cute tube.

Class AB2 push-pull:

Plate voltage 750V
Screen voltage 300V
G1 voltage -32V
Plate current 60/240mA
Screen current 5/10mA
G1-to-G1 drive 92Vpk
Drive power 0.2W
RL p-p 6.95k
Power out 120W

* 807W_5933.pdf (381.39 KB - downloaded 445 times.)
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