ElectroVoice RE-20 vs: Behringer B1 Microphones for hi-fi AM use?

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

What a bunch of broadcaster wanna bees! Use your electronic printing presses for something useful, instead of passing worthless 10 Hz signals.

[K1JJ]

What a bunch of broadcaster wanna bees! Use you electronic printing presses for something useful, instead of passing worthless 10 Hz signals.

Whales, elephants and dinosaurs can hear 10 hz.  They're people too.... 

T

[K5UJ]

It just occurred to me that some of you may not know about the mic listening room:

http://www.miclisteningroom.org/

73

Rob

[W2ZE]

instead of passing worthless 10 Hz signals

Isn't 10 Hz around the same frequency as the imfamous "brown note"?

[W2XR]

that stuff is all crap. This is teh gold standard right here. dont even need a transmitter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqZQmS8KeLM

Good God, if there ever was a product I can see someone tiring of almost immediately, that is it.

73,

Bruce

[K1JJ]

And here's the "hacked" spy version of Mr. Microphone.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOMTN39N7d8&NR=1&feature=fvwp


Notice the bong on the left.

T

[W1RKW]

10Hz/microphonephools/audiophools/ ......................................

[W3RSW]

"Jeff, does Heather know your calling here. "
"No Monica told me he's dumber than toast."

Oh I used to tape my sisters. When you live in a house with cardboard walls you just drill a small hole in the closet and hide the mike in the old shoe pile.

[W2INR]

What good is 10 hz audio on the airwaves?

For ham radio use:

My 4 x1 rig would reproduce a 6 hz signal . Paul VJB and others were here and we hooked up a signal gen and watched the meters for the modulators pulse back and forth as the plates oscillated. When we tried to do it on the air no station on the receiving side could hear it. (I am sure there are a couple true HI Fi stations that could reproduce the note.) It was good to know the rig could do it and it assured me that the rig would be true on the frequencies voice uses.

For Sound reproduction:

On a microphone it is called reinforcement. Having a mic being able to respond to extreme frequencies will pretty much guarantee you that it will be on track in the normal ranges used.

Anyway you have a great mic T, it will last you another 20 years.

G

[WA3VJB]

Yes, I can testify Gary's rig (pr. 833A into a 4x1) was passing single digit AF, amazing.

Not only were the meters dancing like that, but I had never seen the glow of the plates in modulator tubes THROBBING like we witnessed that time.

As far as I know, I am among the earliest stations on the East Coast who selected the Electro-Voice RE-20 as the main station mic, in the late 1980s.  The mic far surpassed the capabilities of my main transmitter at the time, a homebrew set-up with a pair of 810s into a pair of Amperex 7527A.

The benefit is that the microphone was not the component constraining the overall quality of the system. And I think that's where a the RE-20 might beat the B-1.  The differences will be subtle at the most, but perceptible for those of us who have taken the time with a good receive setup.

Unit-to-unit quality control is part of the reason the EV is expensive. Studios with multiple examples of the mic need unit-to-unit consistency in output level, frequency response, and long term reliability.  A single mic may crap out and you simply get another one, no big deal.

It's also true that condenser mics don't seem to have the response pattern available with cardioid dynamics. So if you're in a noisy room, or one with a lot of acoustic reflections (like from glass, hard walls, or other surfaces), the condenser will not be as "good."

The other points are valid about the cost-benefit ratio, but none of us can pronounce that judgment for someone else.

What good is 10 hz audio on the airwaves?

For ham radio use:

My 4 x1 rig would reproduce a 6 hz signal . Paul VJB and other were here and we hooked up a signal gen and watched the meters for the modulators pulse back and forth as the plates oscillated. When we tried to do it on the air no station on the receiving side could hear it. (I am sure there are a couple true HI Fi stations that could reproduce the note.) It was good to know the rig could do it and it assured me that the rig would be true on the frequencies voice uses.

For Sound reproduction:

On a microphone it is called reinforcement. Having a mic being able to respond to extreme frequencies will pretty much guarantee you that it will be on track in the normal ranges used.

Anyway you have a great mic T, it will last you another 20 years.

G

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

10 Hz or 1 Hz, what's the difference when you aren't on the air?

What good is 10 hz audio on the airwaves?

For ham radio use:

My 4 x1 rig would reproduce a 6 hz signal . Paul VJB and others were here and we hooked up a signal gen and watched the meters for the modulators pulse back and forth as the plates oscillated. When we tried to do it on the air no station on the receiving side could hear it. (I am sure there are a couple true HI Fi stations that could reproduce the note.) It was good to know the rig could do it and it assured me that the rig would be true on the frequencies voice uses.

For Sound reproduction:

On a microphone it is called reinforcement. Having a mic being able to respond to extreme frequencies will pretty much guarantee you that it will be on track in the normal ranges used.

Anyway you have a great mic T, it will last you another 20 years.

G

[K5UJ]

Unit-to-unit quality control is part of the reason the EV is expensive. Studios with multiple examples of the mic need unit-to-unit consistency in output level, frequency response, and long term reliability.  A single mic may crap out and you simply get another one, no big deal.

Right.  Another reason why stations keep buying the same mics.  If everything is set up for the RE20 you don't want to have to go to the trouble of working in a different mic.  The cost of that in terms of salary and mic is usually more than the cost of just getting another RE20.

Hams who don't want to spring several hundred dollars on a RE20 (not to mention the costly articulated arm and holder and the special EV pop sock) can find dynamic mic substitutes that are practically indistinguishable as far as voice audio is concerned.  For example, I have done rapid A/B comparing with the PR20 and RE20 and listened to another ham doing the same thing and the difference is there, but it is so subtle that you would never notice it if you were not clued in to listen closely.   In my book if you swap mics and no one notices anything then it's the same mic but your checking account has an extra $300 in it.

Rob

[steve_qix]

I just do not get the infatuation some AMers have with condenser mics.   In all my years I have never seen a condenser in a broadcast AM station.  W2INR is 100% correct.

Why run a mic that will pickup every sound, every low frequency rumble (big problem for AM tube rigs), make your shack live unless you have stuff like foam on the walls....I can always tell a guy is running a condenser--his plosives make him painful to copy.  To avoid that and pickup of any blower sound you have to employ ridiculously elaborate pop screens, a noise gate...you have to roll off the low frequencies at around 100 hz if you want to be intelligible...or you can just get a relatively cheap Shure SM58 and pop sock and a lot of this goes away and trust me, no one will know the difference on ham AM.  The only thing is you have to get right up on the mic--you can't sit back 2 feet away from it and yack.  Only places I see condensers (besides ham shacks) is NPR and recording studios. 

Rob   

Now wait a minute !     I have a near-silent background, and I use a B-1.  No breath pops either    I also own an RE-20.  The RE-20 is a very good microphone, no doubt about it, but I happen to personally like the sound of the B-1 better.  The B-1 certainly and without a doubt has a wider frequency response, and it appears to be flatter.   With the B-1, there is no pickup whatsoever from magnetic sources, which abound in my shack.

The RE-20 is definitely less sensitive with respect to picking up background noise, and when I use my generator (which is located beneath the shack and produces a low frequency rumble), I use the RE-20.

We used RE-20s when I was in broadcasting, but there were also some large diaphram condenser mics in use.

My B-1 is pretty old, and I've never had one bit of trouble with it.  I believe damp, cool environments are a problem over time with the B1.

Regards,

Steve

[W3RSW]

Good one.

10 Hz or 1 Hz, what's the difference when you aren't on the air?

How far's the old needle in?
   -ought to be a song.

You have to realize that some hams have phase changes, lots of stuff or all the stuff gone.  The periods range from a year or so to a decade.

[ke7trp]

I have tried a bunch of mics.. I dont own an RE20.  But would like to some day.  I can tell you That the best hands down has been this MXL large diaphram condenser mic.  They are about $99. They need phantom power.  Because of this, Its hard to let go of $600 for the RE20.

C

[K1JJ]

Clark,

Well, after all said here, I've decided to stick with the RE-20. I'm glad I axed, cuz it saved me some time and $$.

I think the major reason is that I have blower noise from both Fabio and Dr. Love.  The RE-20 does an excellent job with its pattern. But as some have said, the B1 tends to pick up more room noise for whatever reason. That wud be a killer for me.

I did notice the RE-20 to be sensitive to magnetic fields, but finally positioned it away from the offenders.

I've also decided the 10hz response wasn't important to me...  So, RE-20 it is.  BTW, I paid only $200 for it and a shock mounting used - from Mike/W2ZE who gave me a sweetheart deal. I sent it back to EV after something broke loose inside. It was a common problem and they replaced the cartridge for a new one. Like a new mic!

T

[ke7trp]

One day I will find one and try it out. I sure like the tone out of of those RE-20s

C

[W1GFH]

I have tried a bunch of mics.. I dont own an RE20.  But would like to some day.  I can tell you That the best hands down has been this MXL large diaphram condenser mic.  They are about $99. They need phantom power.  Because of this, Its hard to let go of $600 for the RE20.

I couldn't have said it better. I'd like an RE-20 but my mic budget is well short of $600. But it's fortunate there's a lot of choice out there in the lower budget range.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Well, reading the comments and applying the logic provided for the RE-20 being superior/hams are cheap/etc, we'd all have to be running $1500 RCA 77 or 44 ribbon mics as they have been broadcast and recording industry standards for decades and are still used today. Not bad for 30s/40s technology. This basically makes the RE-20 the 'cheaper alternative', or the B-1 of mics in the industry. 

You have to realize that some hams have phase changes, lots of stuff or all the stuff gone.  The periods range from a year or so to a decade.

My out-of-phase period lasted 11 years or so, due to work, travel, and life rather than lack of interest. G's been through a couple, he use to own every piece of Johnson gear made, then Central Electronics, can't remember what else. I have no doubt the thrill will return. WX permitting,  HUZ and I are heading up there in a couple weeks to snag that 21E before he changes his mind. 

[Blaine N1GTU]

both mics sound great.
I prefer the RE-20 due to its tight pickup pattern, the mic tends to pick up your voice more than the computer fans/cars driving by and ants farting
plus the RE20 is very rugged
check out the polar patterns for each, it says it all

[steve_qix]

both mics sound great.
I prefer the RE-20 due to its tight pickup pattern, the mic tends to pick up your voice more than the computer fans/cars driving by and ants farting
plus the RE20 is very rugged
check out the polar patterns for each, it says it all

Hmmmm... I have seen the patterns before, but for whatever reason, I don't get a lot of room noise pickup using the B1.  I'll have to pull out my RE-20 and do some on-the-air tests (A - B) tests with both mics. 

Tom, maybe I'll leave the RE-20 set up and when I talk with you, I can conduct the test(s) and you can hear whatever differences exist.

We used the RE-20 at various broadcast stations I worked with, and we also had a couple of condenser mics.  The difference, listening on a very good of monitors, was QUITE noticable with respect to flatness of the frequency response.  The response of the condenser mic was extended and flatter.  Whether of the listeners at home noticed it was another story, however    And that's probably the key here!

[steve_qix]

Hi - I have configured both microphones - the RE-20 and the B-1 into my system, and can switch between them instantly.

I made a number of tests listening in the headphones, but will reserve comment until anyone who might be interested in hearing the test actually hears it.

If you don't have a pretty good receiving setup, you will likely notice virtually no difference.  The mics are quite close, with some differences in frequency response.

I'm also currently using a transmitter with an audible fan, and the fan is only a few feet (maybe even somewhat less) from the microphones - and is in front of the microphones (the particular transmitter is behind me), so this may make a good background noise test as well.

I'll try to be on 75 later this afternoon, and on 160 tonight.

Regards,

Steve

[WD8BIL]

One thing is for sure.

They both look good just sittin' there!

[K1JJ]

Thanks for the mic plots, Blaine.

Yes, I notice the RE-20 has a nice null directly behind it. I usually watch the scope blower noise and position the mic for minimum hiss. It's good for an extra -10 db when set correctly.

For ssb I find the blower noise to peak voice signal ratio should be -40 db or better. You can get away with -30db, but anything less starts to grate and sound like a machine shop on the air. You can easily measure this by tuning in a remote receiver, sock a yallo normalized to S9+40 over and watch where the blower noise settles. S9 or less blower noise is the goal.

On AM, -40db is mandatory and -50db or less is even better.   Blessed are those with quiet rooms and remote transmitters.

BTW, the air hiss also has to be pure white noise air. If there is bearing noise whine mixed in, forget it.

Steve, I'll give a listen to your mic changes and make a recording later today if I hear you.

T

[K6IC]

Interesting topic.  Thanks,  Tom,  for asking the question,  and for the replies.  Have been wondering about a new mic.  Have thought that,  while the topic is very subjective,  it might deserve a button of its own in the Handbook section,  as general guidance.

I've felt that a dynamic for my applications would be the best,  but it is difficult to $tep up to an RE-20,  or 27,  but the result may be worth it.  Most of my rooms are very live,  so the tight cardioid pattern should help.  And,  to me,  the proximity effect seems desirable,  and so on.

Thanks,  VIc