Appliance Jockeys and Bandwidth

[k4kyv]

Last night I fired up and called CQ on 75, using my 3720 kHz crystal.  Some appliance jockey came back with his transceiver on AM, pissing and moaning that I was QRM'ing his QSO down the band, and how stupid and inconsiderate I was to call CQ with my "antiquated junk" on a "crowded band" like 75 on a weekend night.

Dave, W9AD came back to me, and we continued, ignoring the idiot.  Then he and some of his henchmen QSY'ed to our frequency and tried to QRM, by switching back and forth between USB and LSB.  Dave was using a FlexRadio, and the display showed the band clear and unoccupied for tens of kHz on both sides, so there was no reason the slopbuckets had to stay so close to us if we were really causing them any difficulty.  I probably would have changed over to the VFO and QSY'ed myself if he hadn't been rude about it.

Most hilarious of all, I heard him remark that my signal was so "wide" that he was "reading me perfectly" all the way from 3705 to 3725.

That made me realise this was most likely a case of operator deficiency.  First of all, if my signal was "broad" why was he hearing me all the way down to 3705, but only up to 3725, when my carrier was on 3720?  But most importantly, if he was using an effective receiver, set to optimum SSB selectivity, he would not have been able to "read me perfectly" more than about 500 Hz from my carrier frequency, and if he was using a 6 kHz filter on AM receive mode, he would not be able to "read me perfectly" beyond about 4 kHz from my carrier.  All he would have been able to hear beyond the normal passband would be splatter and buckshot if my signal was wide and splattering.  The fact that he could understand my audio down at 3705 meant that he was demodulating my full carrier and at least one entire sideband; therefore either his receiver selectivity sucks, or he has an extra wide AM filter option, and his passband tuning (if any) is set way over to one side.

[John Holotko]

I heard you and Dave on 3720. I had just put my receivers back online and was tuning around the bands.  I don't have any of my transmitters on line yet, otherwise I would have jumped in and said Hi.  I caught the last few minutes of your conversation.  I didn't hear the guy who was complaining though.  I probably tuned in after he was gone. He sounds like the typical idiots you have on the air these days.  The buy expensive appliances but they don't know how to use them.

John / N2IZE

[Ed-VA3ES]

After close to 44 years in this hobby, I can tell you catagorically that today's slopbucketeers are cretinous incomptetents.  They do not understand how to use their equipment, nor do they understand bandwidth and how to measure it.    They are lids of the first water.

[ve6pg]

.too bad i missed you don...i called cq on 3725 fer some time, with no replies....same thing happened a few weeks ago...this idiot started calling cq, right on the same freq. i was on, with ve3ajm...real jerk...funny thing is, i had just emailed the guy with some info on where to get some tubes, so he knew who i was...
 gotta agree with ed, there appears to be a completely different type of  "ham"  these days. in most cases, they get bored and go away...
 tim..sk..

[k4kyv]

... gotta agree with ed, there appears to be a completely different type of  "ham"  these days. in most cases, they get bored and go away...

Well, some are hams, but others are HAMS.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

It's not just appliance operators. I received a letter from an ARRL area technical director claiming he made over-the-air bandwidth measurements of AMers on 75 meters at night, where the bandwidth of stations in question exceeded 20 kHz. He supposedly made these measurements using a swept-tuned spectrum analyzer with a minimum resolution bandwidth of 1 kHz. LOL.

[W1UJR]

After close to 44 years in this hobby, I can tell you catagorically that today's slopbucketeers are cretinous incomptetents.  They do not understand how to use their equipment, nor do they understand bandwidth and how to measure it.    They are lids of the first water.

Not all Ed, and in some ways we are only the reaping of that which has been sown by an "easy" testing structure.
These poor folks don't realize all they have been cheated out of, and so many of them really do believe that AM is illegal, went away years ago, wastes band space, etc. Few, if any, understand what bandwidth really is, nor how to really measure it. How many times have you been told you have an "extra sideband", or that you have "carrier" in your signal? My personal favorite is getting razzed for operating CW "outside the sub band" (CW is also OK in the fone section of the band). In many ways I don't blame the ops as much of those who have encouraged and mandated "dumbing down" the amateur service.

The hard part is educating them that they are wrong. You just can't do it on the air, nor does it make sense to try to argue with them. No one wants to admit he or she is wrong, and it is esp more difficult when they are in a group. After all, who looks to look silly in front of their buddies?

Sometimes, when I find someone who seems worth trying to save, I'll send off a personal email (an easy feat today with the look-up feature on QRZ), to the offending party. I'll start out in a self-effacing way, often explain how much I've got to learn myself, offer some good reading suggestions, and even offer to send over tech info via email. I'll often include a photo of my station, showing them the gear, that is usually a good icebreaker to get a dialogue going. Sure, it does not work every time, and you have to be selective about who you approach, but sometimes you hit gold! More than once I've received a return email with a good word of thanks. One guy was flabbergasted that I would take the time to offer to help him, so it does work.

Yes, some folks are just knuckleheads, and collective IQ of group is typically inversely proportional to its size, but every once in a while you can save one or two. And just keep in mind that it is not really their fault that they don't fully understand radio, or make foolish statements. They are just the end product of a system which is broken, and its up to us to try to clean up the mess. We've got two choices, either try to help the other fellow to understand, or continue the fighting.

[ka3zlr]

It's not just appliance operators. I received a letter from an ARRL area technical director claiming he made over-the-air bandwidth measurements of AMers on 75 meters at night, where the bandwidth of stations in question exceeded 20 kHz. He supposedly made these measurements using a swept-tuned spectrum analyzer with a minimum resolution bandwidth of 1 kHz. LOL.

LOL....I'm Not saying a Word....

[WA5VQM]

Aside from the hyperbole and rudeness of his comment, it’s likely that he had his receiver’s RF gain at max, the rice box' pre-amp switched in, overloading his front-end. I'd bet any strong signal seems wide to him.

73, Mark

[K1JJ]

Let's look at it another way...

If you use any given receiver, ricebox or old tube AM receiver, an average AM signal is gonna appear to be at least three, maybe four times wider than the average single sideband signal on the band. I'm assuming the ssb signal is set up for 3kc total  bandwidth and the AM signal is set up to be +-4 to 6 kc per sideband or 8 to 12 kc total bandwidth.  Some AM signals are wider and some are narrower, depends on what the AMer wants to do. (And a handful run +-10kc at times on a quiet band)  This assumes the AM signal is clean. I'm simply talking relativity of AM to ssb.

So let's admit that, yes, AMers run wider signals by CHOICE to achieve a higher fidelty for the communications - totally legal.  I think what pisses certain ssbers off is that they happen to run a narrow bandwidth to talk, so why shouldn't we be forced to also?

Whenever an ssber comments on my bandwidth, I simply say, yep, that's right - I'm running +-5kc per sideband, 10kc wide. So what? It's legal and I like the fidelity. What do ya wanna do about it?   That usually sets them back and douses their fire. They are expecting a long argument and defense about why we are really narrow and there's something wrong wid their receiver. Nope! I run 8 to 10kc total signal bandwidth and proud of it!  Now, let's continue our conversation - next!

It's like the Harleys you hear coming down the street. Many of them can be heard a mile away when they open it up. Sure they could put big mufflers on and be quiet like the rest of the bikes in the world. But they CHOOSE to hear the fidelity of their machines. No cops bother them about it around here. In fact a Harley is loud stock from the factory.

Sure, on a crowded band use a brickwall audio filter and narrow it down to +- 3kc if you can, but no matter what, we are always gonna be twice as wide as ssb, minumum, cuz of our double sidebands.

Ride AM and be proud of it.

Hope to see youse guys at Nearfest in a few weeks.

Tom, K1JJ

[John Holotko]

Aside from the hyperbole and rudeness of his comment, it’s likely that he had his receiver’s RF gain at max, the rice box' pre-amp switched in, overloading his front-end. I'd bet any strong signal seems wide to him.

73, Mark

That's another thing. I have noticed that a lot of hams (more so than swl's) keep the rf gain control at the max.  I have explained to them on more than 1 occaision that there is a REASON why the rf gain is adjustable. namely it is not always desireable (pending conditions) to have the receiver cranked up to max full tilt sensitivity.  Otherwise the manufacturers could have designed it to be fixed at full max. Then they wonder why they are getting overloaded with strong sigs.

[KL7OF]

It's like the Harleys you hear coming down the street. Many of them can be heard a mile away when they open it up. Sure they could put big mufflers on and be quiet like the rest of the bikes in the world. But they CHOOSE to hear the fidelity of their machines. No cops bother them about it around here. In fact a Harley is loud stock from the factory.

LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

LOUD PIPES KILL EARS!!!!!

[WA1GFZ]

Don you usually strap so it was either bird shit on your spreaders or the guy was usiing some rice box RX HOS with plenty of phase noise that processed your strong signal. This is why the ARRL came up with the new method of measuring phase noise at S5.

[w3jn]

there is a REASON why the rf gain is adjustable. namely it is not always desireable (pending conditions) to have the receiver cranked up to max full tilt sensitivity.  Otherwise the manufacturers could have designed it to be fixed at full max. Then they wonder why they are getting overloaded with strong sigs.

Wow, long time there stranger!

Unfortunately in most receivers this is actually an IF gain control, where it does little good in eliminating distortion in the front end and first mixer.

[John Holotko]

there is a REASON why the rf gain is adjustable. namely it is not always desireable (pending conditions) to have the receiver cranked up to max full tilt sensitivity.  Otherwise the manufacturers could have designed it to be fixed at full max. Then they wonder why they are getting overloaded with strong sigs.

Wow, long time there stranger!

Unfortunately in most receivers this is actually an IF gain control, where it does little good in eliminating distortion in the front end and first mixer.

Yes, it has been a while. I hope all has been going well . Hope to be on the air soon too.

Most of the older tube receivers I've played around with I can reduce overload distortion by lowering the rf gain.  I presume that the if gain feature is a product of the newer receivers/tranceivers ?  Or was this true of some of the older stuff as well ?

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I heard these jokers giving you the business an hour or so before I was able to get on the air, Don. Not that it worked, you were still there when I called you, and booming in.

If you wanna hear a messy signal, listen to VA3MPM on 3730 SSB. Amp, processor, 'power mic', I think he's running everything he can find wide open. Easily 10+ kcs wide most nights. One night he was 30+, amazing. And that's the so-called 'more efficient' SSB mode they chastise us for not using. Seems that Tim and Al gave me the lowdown on that 'net' a while back and it all made sense (10-4). Fortunately it's easy to filter out on the 75A-4. Love that passband tuning!

There's a big difference between a wide signal and a messy one. Lack of knowledge is right up there with mode prejudice when it comes to these complaints.

[W1ATR]

It's like the Harleys you hear coming down the street. Many of them can be heard a mile away when they open it up. Sure they could put big mufflers on and be quiet like the rest of the bikes in the world. But they CHOOSE to hear the fidelity of their machines. No cops bother them about it around here. In fact a Harley is loud stock from the factory.

LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn Straight brother! If it's too loud, your too old.

[ka3zlr]

I'm all for Learning How to use ones Receiver, That's a Good Thing...We have some of the Best Receiver Men in the business here if these characters would spend more time READING with their MOUTH SHUT..and READ what's being SAID....there'd be less problems...ya just can't explain this to some people...

of Course i guess I'm playing the Choir..But it's the Truth man...Ya know I outta put the DSP machine back on the AIR One Sideband with carrier and let the genius open it's mouth about width...an then vary the IF out to 6Kc's an then set the audio from 200 Cycles to 4000 cycles and say hey genius No Bass but it's Flat from 200 to 4000 cycles...Skirting is set at 30 degrees of taper....  what's yer opinion Old man...LOL ...aaaaah Jack welll I don't know...............Sounds Good....

But I don't do that... But i did at one time....and Nobody ever said a word....with or without Carrier...As soon as Somebody hears a Hint of Bass response. WHAM>>>>>The Mouth Opens before the Brain engages...Unbelievable...

Rant Mode off...