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Author Topic: Rewinding a parasitic Choke  (Read 8136 times)
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KF8XO
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« on: September 26, 2008, 02:27:10 AM »

I have a Knight T-60 with a burned up looking Parasitic Choke. If I wind it on a modern day resistor, will I have issues with it? Or should I try to find a NOS resistor? Worried about the difference in shapes being an issue...old 2 watters being VERY tubular as opposed to todays "barbell" shaped resistors.

Thanks.
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WQ9E
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 08:14:17 AM »

Is the choke actually burnt or is it just discolored from a combination of dust and proximity to tube heat?  I would check resistance across the choke (should be very close to zero once you account for resistance of your meter leads) and then unsolder the wire from one end and check the resistor itself.  If the resistor is OK (within around 20% of marked value) and the choke is OK then unless you are concerned about cosmetics I would use the one you have.  If the resistor is bad then you need to find either a NOS old style carbon comp resistor or a new resistor that is truly non-inductive.

Rodger WQ9E
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Rodger WQ9E
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 08:25:44 AM »

assuming the old pc was wound on a 1W carbon comp with 5 to 10 turns along the body, substitution with a more modern resistor MAY cause stability problems.  It will depend on the ability of the resistor to snub parasitic energy.  If the resistor is a typical 'flameproof' design it is usually constructed as a ceramic core "wound" with metalization.  This construction style would have both an inductive and resistive component.  If a good conductor is wound in parallel with this resistor the net impedance would depend on whether the mutual inductance of the coils were aiding or opposing and the magnitude of each.....complicated ... a pat answer is just not there because the winding direction on the resistor element is not visible ...would have to go to some indirect method to determine ... just not worth it .... my recommendation is to try just the flameproof by itself ... use the methods outlined in the handbooks for testing for parasitics to protect the pa tube ...sniff with a NE-2 on an insulating stick ... if this doesn't work (a GOOD possibility) then find a carbon comp ....hope this helps ...73 ...John
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Beefus

O would some power the gift give us
to see ourselves as others see us.
It would from many blunders free us.         Robert Burns
WA1GFZ
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 09:08:53 AM »

film resistor will not handle the peak power a carbon comp can.
Film resistors are fine for RF  as long as not stressed. I would use a larger film rating and wind the inductor beside the resistor. fc
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N3DRB The Derb
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2008, 12:57:31 AM »

heres how I did it in my amp. dont wind around the resistor if using anyhing but carbon comp. Thats nichrome wire.

the other picture  (488) is how NOT to make them.


* DSCN0008.jpg (188.34 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 426 times.)

* DSCN0488.jpg (319.34 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 493 times.)

* DSCN0006.jpg (163.38 KB, 1280x960 - viewed 427 times.)
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WZ1M
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2008, 03:44:09 AM »

Whats the reistance of the carbon comp? 50 ohms? What ever it is, I probably have them.
Regards,
Gary
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N3DRB The Derb
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2008, 04:41:28 AM »

usually 100 ohms @ 2 watts.
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WZ1M
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2008, 08:34:18 AM »

How many you need, I have them.
Regards,
Gary
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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2008, 12:16:49 PM »


There are two schools of thought on the parasitic suppressor, or actually 3.
The first is the traditional one.
The second is Rich Measures' site.
And the third is W8JI (iirc the callsign) who disagrees with Measures.

I think that '8JI is probably more correct.

Otoh, the sucess of your approach depends almost entirely upon the specific tube, and layout, and the actual VHF or UHF positive feedback found (that's a parasitic path) or not found in that situation. The frequency of operation also counts. It's usually not a problem to run on 75m, while it might very much become a problem on 10m.

One of the problems with modern resistors in this application is that they are often inductors at UHF frequencies since they are "wound" around a ceramic core in many cases. That's why the carbon composition resistor is useful for this application, no added self-inductance.

The value of the carbon composition resistor isn't terribly critical - what it does is to reduce the "Q" of the little choke, and to dissipate some of the parasitic energy should it occur. The choke is intended to make the plate circuit "look" like a high(er) impedance to the tube at VHF and UHF frequencies. At frequencies where the coil/choke has not effect (lower ones) then the choke is a wire, no power going through the resistor at all. At frequencies where the choke "works" almost all the power goes through the resistor.

Nichrome wire combines the resistor in the wire. So there is a small resistance all the time in series with the plate, and if there is a parasitic you get the variation in resistance with temperature characteristic of Nichrome wire (presumably the ohms go up with temp, I don't remember).

IF you've got a smoked parasitic choke's resistor in a low power rig, that does speak to a potential parasitic problem - but again, maybe only on the higher bands.

A run through with a grid-dip meter may or may not reveal a resonance up above the normal operating frequency. If you can find that, you can then design the suppressor to address that, or else you might change the taps or bypasses on the RF choke, or alter the layout a bit to solve the problem.

I read, although I don't have a good reference for it (anyone?) that you can get parasitic supression by putting a large slug of ferrite material on a grounded metal post near the plate(s) of the tubes!?  Roll Eyes Seems to me that this is maybe a very good way to go - but while I've seen a pic of it, I don't have a design reference or theory of operation for this technique.


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N3DRB The Derb
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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2008, 02:14:56 PM »

In my case, i had 2 copies of teh exact same amp both showing teh exact same problems - burned up bandswitches with the worst being 10 meters, next being 15, next being 20.


the W8JI - Measures feud is ridiculous, why 2 people would allow themselves to get worked up like that over such an issue is bizzarro. I decided to go with measures because it was a different approach. We'll see how it works when i test it, may be as soon as tomorrow. ( I'm at my dad's house now.)




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KF8XO
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2008, 06:45:44 PM »

How many you need, I have them.
Regards,
Gary

Just one, putting a Knight T-60 back together.
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w4bfs
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2008, 08:40:14 AM »

a perrenial (sp?) favorite topic of heated discussion ... goes to show how hard this problem can be ... there was a commercial amp that used a stub as an antenna to a power resistance to ground in their pa compartment .... may have been a resonant cavity ... it was enuff to keep the parasite monster at bay ... wonder if it would still work with more modern tubes ... ALL amps have parasitic oscillations ... the trick is to determine if the amplitude of these is low enuff to stay out of the way ... 73 ...John
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Beefus

O would some power the gift give us
to see ourselves as others see us.
It would from many blunders free us.         Robert Burns
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