W7FG doublet for 160 meters - Any input?

[ka2zni]

I am considering on getting one of these open-fed wire antennas... Was wondering if anyone on hear has had experience with them, and also wondering what/how they did the installation.

I have a Palstar Balanced Tuner , And have limited experience with feedline, never used an open wire feeder system, Comming right out of the back of the tuner with an open feeder off the back of the palstar, will I experience RF radiation/Trouble off the wire from radiation??

I want to try and implement a good balanced antenna system up here... BUT if I have to go thru the trouble of installing baluns, runs of coax etc.... I might as well stay with my coax and a balun at the feedpoint, I can't see where jewelry rigging all this stuff together is gonna make it any more efficient with less loss including the losss in the tuner, and still benefit me.

Any input would be great... I tried the 450 Ohm stuff and it didn't work any better than my coax system sad to say...

[The Slab Bacon]

I used to feel the same way about ladder line radiating. the truth of the matter is that it doesnt as long as it is kept balenced.

Derb made a believer out of me many years ago. We were at his house, and he had a small el cheapo portable tv with "rabbit ears" on a shelf directly above the transmitter. His hadder line feeder ran up the wall less than a foot away from the tv. He didnt as much as put a line on the tv while transmitting!! They say "seeing is believing", well that made a believer out of me!

Where you will see the additional benefits of ladder line is when using a single antenna for multi band operation. Or when using a non resonant antenna. I.E. a 160m dipole will actually have some gain when used on 80m, but will not be a 50 ohm match to work well with coass. Henceforth ladder line is an advantage in this situation. For frequency agility balanced feeders and a good tuna are your friends!!

With balanced line, SWR is a lot less of a concern, as long as your transmatch can match whatever the complex impedance presented at the end of the feeders is to something that the transmitter likes.

I have always said: Put up as much wire as you can, feed it with ladder line, and use a good tuner, you'll be good to go!

                                                   The Slab Bacon

[w3jn]

I think the issue is not with the feedline so much as it is your tooner.  ALthough it advertises a "balanced output" it uses a ferrite balun to do so.  I suspect that such an arrangement will prove to be fairly lossy, particularly on AM and further provides only a limited output impedance excursion.  I find it VERY interesting that Palstar  purports to have a QST review of one of its products on its website - but it's basically an explanation of how a Johnson Matchbox works with the review part of the article missing! http://www.palstar.com/qstAT1500bal.pdf  I suspect that this may be because any of the so-called "balanced tuners" in that review will perform poorly indeed in comparison to the Matchbox.

I recommend you find yerself an old Johnson Matchbox, or better yet, build yerself a K1JJ tooner - construction details are either here or on amwindow.org, can't remember which.

I think the W7FG stuff is Fine Business indeed... I honestly don't think you could build the ant and feedline for less cost.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

IIRC, I well known AMer with a BIG signal on 160 uses a Palstar tuner. I'd give it a shot. If it doesn't work, then go looking for something else, or build one.

[w3jn]

^^ I think he did, but perhaps not.  OP said this:

I tried the 450 Ohm stuff and it didn't work any better than my coax system sad to say...

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I think the issue is not with the feedline so much as it is your tooner.  ALthough it advertises a "balanced output" it uses a ferrite balun to do so.  I suspect that such an arrangement will prove to be fairly lossy, particularly on AM and further provides only a limited output impedance excursion.  I find it VERY interesting that Palstar  purports to have a QST review of one of its products on its website - but it's basically an explanation of how a Johnson Matchbox works with the review part of the article missing! http://www.palstar.com/qstAT1500bal.pdf  I suspect that this may be because any of the so-called "balanced tuners" in that review will perform poorly indeed in comparison to the Matchbox.

Most of the real review is missing from Palstar's web site. If you're an ARRL member, you can see the entire review here:
http://www.arrl.org/members-only/prodrev/pdf/pr0409.pdf

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Not clear on exactly what was tried and how the comparions were made.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't expect to see any apprecable difference between a coax-fed antenna (on it's resonant band) and the same set of wire(s) fed with open-wire line, given that good coax was used and the feedline length was under a few hundred feet in the coax-fed case, and decent quality ladderline and tuner were used in the open-wire fed case. This would most especially be true on 75 meters, as compared to say 10 meters, where coax loss might actually come into play.

^^ I think he did, but perhaps not.  OP said this:

I tried the 450 Ohm stuff and it didn't work any better than my coax system sad to say...

[w3jn]

^^ Indeed.  It's where the off resonant excursions are concerned that this sort of antenner proves its worth.

[W1IA]

I am considering on getting one of these open-fed wire antennas... Was wondering if anyone on hear has had experience with them, and also wondering what/how they did the installation.

I have a Palstar Balanced Tuner , And have limited experience with feedline, never used an open wire feeder system, Comming right out of the back of the tuner with an open feeder off the back of the palstar, will I experience RF radiation/Trouble off the wire from radiation??

I want to try and implement a good balanced antenna system up here... BUT if I have to go thru the trouble of installing baluns, runs of coax etc.... I might as well stay with my coax and a balun at the feedpoint, I can't see where jewelry rigging all this stuff together is gonna make it any more efficient with less loss including the losss in the tuner, and still benefit me.

Any input would be great... I tried the 450 Ohm stuff and it didn't work any better than my coax system sad to say...

Don't see the benefit inless you can use a true "link-coupled" tuner...easy to make>
Advantage to balanced line is more frequency operation. The palstar will be unbalanced, thus defeating the purpose of using balanced line. Likely RF in the shack?!

Brent W1IA

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Let's go back to the beginning. What is your goal? Is this antenna to be used only on 160 meters? Or do you want/need to use it on other bands?

Tell us a little more about your comparisons between the coax and ladderline fed systems.

I am considering on getting one of these open-fed wire antennas... Was wondering if anyone on hear has had experience with them, and also wondering what/how they did the installation.

I have a Palstar Balanced Tuner , And have limited experience with feedline, never used an open wire feeder system, Comming right out of the back of the tuner with an open feeder off the back of the palstar, will I experience RF radiation/Trouble off the wire from radiation??

I want to try and implement a good balanced antenna system up here... BUT if I have to go thru the trouble of installing baluns, runs of coax etc.... I might as well stay with my coax and a balun at the feedpoint, I can't see where jewelry rigging all this stuff together is gonna make it any more efficient with less loss including the losss in the tuner, and still benefit me.

Any input would be great... I tried the 450 Ohm stuff and it didn't work any better than my coax system sad to say...

[The Slab Bacon]

I think the issue is not with the feedline so much as it is your tooner.  ALthough it advertises a "balanced output" it uses a ferrite balun to do so.  I suspect that such an arrangement will prove to be fairly lossy,

I use a single ended tuna with a ferrite balun. The losses are very minimal. the trick is to build it to take 4x the power your running. My ferrite balun probably weighs close to 5 lbs. I know it is not very lossy when I got on the other night running less than 10w with a 60' antenna and was heard all the way up the coast. (Test running Derb's FT-101 barefoot) And it doesnt even get warm with all of the soup that my 4X1 rig can muster. And I get NO RF in the shack 

The whole trick here is to BUILD good high quality stuff instead of buying crappy "ham grade" overpriced eye candy!! Anyone worth his salt should be able to build an effective tuna!!

                                                       The Slab Bacon

[WA1GFZ]

Tuner needs to be strapping because reactive power can easily be 10X resistive. You have no problems if your tuner can handle it.

[ka2zni]

Thanks for the input guys... Right now my 75 Meter Antenna is 90' high, fed with LMR 400 and has a DX Engineering Current Balun on it... At 1500 watts on 3.880 the SWR meter doesn't even begin to flicker, it is perfect... I stay within' that part of the AM window so I am good there I guess.

I have a 40 Meter Double Bazooka up at 70' as an inverted V and the thing is absolutely quiet, during the day 20/9+ reports to the Northeast, this antenna absolutely works wonderful hands down, again SWR 1:1 with 1500 watts on 7.290 ... PERFECT.

I do not have anything up for 160 Meters yet... I thought maybe the Antenna would have some gain on 75 meters, It would be nice to be a thorn in the side of the 3.992 Buckateers, but have been realizing my antenna being so high gives up local stuff in favor of the northeast/southwest stuff...

At noon from Pittsgurgh on 3.880 I was giving Steve WA1QIX a good signal into Massachussettes...

There's no 1 antenna for all the conditions for all the time of the day, So we'll stay with our current 75 Meter Flat top at 90' ....

Thanks for the input guys, some really interesting comments and suggestions, they have been filed away in the gray matter upstairs for future reference.

[KF1Z]

At noon from Pittsgurgh on 3.880 I was giving Steve WA1QIX a good signal into Massachussettes...

I came in just after you signed out, and chatted with Steve for a couple minutes...
You were about S8 or so here in Central Verminmont.....

FYI

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

With LMR 400, you shouldn't have much loss almost anywhere on the 80/75 meter band. Yes, you will have some SWR, but who cares? If you rig or tuner can deal with it, the loss will be negligible. Don't be afraid to be frequency agile.

Right now my 75 Meter Antenna is 90' high, fed with LMR 400 and has a DX Engineering Current Balun on it... At 1500 watts on 3.880 the SWR meter doesn't even begin to flicker, it is perfect... I stay within' that part of the AM window so I am good there I guess.

[ka2zni]

Thanks Steve, with Coax we use NO tuner... That's why I am happy with the Matches on my 40/75 meter coax fed antenna's ... Their set-up on the major portions of the AM window...

Still wanna get up a 160 Meter 1/2 wave flattop up at the 90' mark fed with ladderline and the Palstar ... I have it so might as well use it for something. I will try that antenna on 75&40 too see if there are any advantages with the longer wire.