7290Kc - Hurricane

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I don't disagree at all with what Riley is saying here. In fact, it seems we're all in violent agreement on the matter. But I DO think that he needs to apply that same methodology to the folks who seem bent on creating a need to justify their actions. Wrapping yourself in a good cause shouldn't excuse bad behavior.

At some point, competent judgment needs to be applied to this situation, otherwise you'll have some egomaniac claiming frequencies for Hurricane Season in its entirety, 'just because it could happen'. As mentioned above, these were the only amateur operators to give us any problem with our emergency communications over more than a decade. 99.999% of the folks do the right thing. They don't need to be told; simply asked to move, or otherwise made aware.

As far as the corntesters go, I'd agree with him on that too, if they weren't on virtually every damned weekend. How can they 'only' be on for a while when contests are so frequent?

[WA3VJB]

Yeah I don't know what causes it, but by questioning whether someone can legitimately shove someone else off a frequency it BECOMES a defense of being willing to move if warranted. None of us has said we would refuse.

In a few exchanges with Riley in the time since the one he said I could post, I have tried to express my concern about contesters who could feel emboldened by his remarks to make way for them. It's bad enough that the magazines who sponsor these events are reluctant to constrain where they take place.

Same deal with practice chatter.  He is reacting as if I am questioning the right-of-way for emergency traffic, when all I'm calling for is even-handed application of the rules for non-essential communications. 

It just does not seem helpful for him to assume that, if it has the guise of an "emergency net" or a contest, then everyone else has to move.

[W3SLK]

Paul said:

It just does not seem helpful for him to assume that, if it has the guise of an "emergency net" or a contest, then everyone else has to move.

Paul & Todd, I can't help but toss my nickel's worth of comments in here. I'm quite pissed about the response that you got from Riley with regards to band usage, ie. emergency nets VS. QSO's VS. corntesters. I echo your sentiments with regards to yielding the freq. when a TRUE emergency presents itself. However, the emergency nets have to operate under the same constraints as everyone else. They have to check the freq. to see if it is in use prior to establishing the net. I don't recall anything in Part 97 giving them a free pass to come right on top of an exisiting QSO. Most good co-ordinated nets will have secondary and tertiary frequencies. What good does it do if a net station comes on freq. and calls for net operation if the existing QSO stations can't hear them? Check out the the on going HF propogation thread.

[WB2RJR]

Let's see, 7290 is used for hurricane nets and ARRL broadcasts.

Jim, W5JO posted all the hurricane frequencies. I noticed there was nothing between 7165- 7225.

If something is going on on 7290, regardless of how bogus, why don't we just use 7190 for the AM calling frequency.

Better yet, why not just tell ARRL 7190+/- QRM is the new AM calling frequency all the time.

See how nice we are........no more bitching about bulletins on 7290 or that retarded no traffic net out of Texas.

7190 was just a suggestion. Maybe we should just pick a freq. down in this clear zone and tell ARRl and Riley about it.

Marty WB2RJR

P.S. Didn't this area just open up for general ops, and that's why there aren't any nets there. I don't remember, I have an advanced license and those rules are all I care about.

[WA3VJB]

Marty there actually HAS been some recent discussion on here about establishing another place to gather AM stations, and it's right in the zone you've found. I may cut my dipole long and see how it goes. Can always lop off a few feet later if nobody comes around.

Riley has said, in all this, that we can't mandate common sense; he's right of course. But I can't quite get him to acknowledge the problem it can create when he, as enforcement counsel, applies a judgment to one activity that gives the appearance of making it more important than others.

He did that with contesting in his remarks at the Dayton hamfest, and now he's done it with practice chatter that takes place way ahead of any emergency.

I don't dispute the value of practicing the logistics and conditions of a net. I just don't think that rises to the level of pushing other non-essential users out of the way.  Same for contesting. I have no beef with the contest scene, but that group is not exempt from the rules mandating an effort against interference, especially with bystanders who refuse to take part in an event.

Look, we had no incidents to point to during Hurricane Dean.  There's nothing to raise hackles about.  Broaching the subject does provide food for thought if an unfortunate confrontation takes place the next time we have a storm on the way.  I am not satisfied with Riley's responses to my concerns, and I hope we can still come to terms as the dialog continues.

In my view, he can either deal with it now, in a neutral setting without a victim and a perpetrator, or he can wait for an actual situation when tempers rise and common sense declines.

[WB2RJR]

Paul,

I don't disagree with you concerning Riley's comments.

However let's think about something else. I checked and to last Dec. generals were only allowed 7225-7300.

Our spot at 7290 was really the result of an overcrowded band where we wanted a freq which included generals. (in the past I have used 7160 rather than 7290 but no generals there).

So 40 meters phone was expanded a bit, 25 kc for me and 50 kc for generals.

I think there is an oportunity here. None of the frequencies down there are being used for nets etc. because generals weren't allowed.

If we could get ARRL and Riley to accept a new AM calling freq we would have been the first after the new rules to do this. We are only taking advantage of the new rules TO ELIMINATE ANY POSSIBLE CONFLICTS and utilize the greater number of frequencies now available to generals.

However to get this done ARRL must accept a new freq and publish it. A blessing by Riley wouldn't hurt.

So what think you? I'm inclined to do this before the "net nuts" figure this out.

Marty WB2RJR AMI #20

[WB2RJR]

Paul,

BTW, you know to establish, say 7190, as the calling freq. it is only necessary to talk Bill W8VYZ into using it.

After that, it's a done deal.

Marty WB2RJR

[k4kyv]

Maybe worth a try, but I suspect the same thing will happen that occurred on 75 last season.  Initially there will be a big rush to move down to the alternative frequency and everyone will crow about how much nicer it is there than up on the "ghetto" at 7285-95 with the broadcast QRM and no-traffic nets.  Things will go smoothly for a couple of weeks, newly heard AM stations will join in, but then activity will begin to dwindle, until AM signals become sparse.  Tuning back to 7290 will reveal that most of the crew has quietly slipped back to the old frequency.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I had the very same thought, Marty. The issue seems to be folks who don't want to move, "can't" move due to being rockbound, and whatever else. When we got the additional phone privileges on 80, I had hoped folks would move away from the problem children and utilize the area below 3800. Some did and still do, but most seemed to flock back up to 3885 when the novelty wore off. Last time I listened, there were several new (U.S.) nets down there now.

Riley has really done wonders for enforcement and other aspects of amateur radio over the last few years, for which most of us are thankful. I understand his position of having to please everyone, but agree that he needs to be careful - not so much of what he says, but how he chooses to say it. Not only can it give the wrong people (meaning fools, troublemakers) ideas, it can cast others in an unfair, 'bad' light. His response above makes it sound like we AMers are somehow complaining or objecting to emergency communications and operations, when nothing could be further from the truth.

The only objection I have or take from this discussion is one of questionable operating practices(regardless of mode, band, etc), and someone in Riley's position giving them support - unintentionally or otherwise - in his choice of words. 

[WB2RJR]

Don,

I don't know. Didn't most go down to the Advanced & Extra sections. I hate to keep people out by license class, and we did have the same problem when the Colorado AM morning group moved down to the advanced class section of 75. It lasted for a bit but too many generals and new guys excluded. So we decided to move back to 3875.

I think a key here is to get someone who is on all the time and is unstopable to use the new frequency. That's why Bill came to mind. He will get on 14286 or 7290 and keep calling for hours. "Any AMers around?"

The general phone section of 40 has been a 75 kc. cluster F since 1968. I think it's a bit different than 75 meters.

We still have this screwed up use of bandwith by license class.

(Being sarcastic) I can see why a no code extra gets to use the lower 25 kcs of the band and I can't.

Marty WB2RJR

[WB2RJR]

Todd,

I see the 40 meter situation a little different than 75.

We have "possible" emergency traffic on 7290. Most is PR BS but can still put us in a bad light.

We have a bulletin station on 7290 that we haven't been able to move for years.

My antennas for 75, the dipole in Colorado and the 6BTV in Wyoming, won't cover the entire phone band on 75, but my D40 & 6BTV do fine on all of 40 phone.

Do you see any other differences that might make a freq. change work on 40 when it hasn't on 75?

Marty WB2RJR

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Marty, someone did a poll here on AMfone as I recall, and figured out that the vast majority of AMers were Advanced Class or above. The other reasoning was the simplicity of today's tests and elimination of the code entirely allows pretty much anyone to play.

As well, no one ever had the intention of dropping all use of 3.885 or other AM hangouts The main intent was to spread out and create activity, instead of waiting for someone else to make it happen. Use a clear frequency instead of fighting over a congested one.  We'd been in a box long enough with fools poking sticks at us, I guess. But as Don says, some folks seem to prefer it over the generally more relaxed, thoughtful operation below 3800.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Guess we were both typing at the same time.

I'm in favor of using other frequencies, or any clear frequency, Marty. 40 seems to make an even stronger case for at least being flexible or moving, as you point out. But I betcha just as Don has said, there will be some, then more, who insist on going back to 'their' frequency(s). Sort of the same thing we complain about the netwits doing.

It's good to have an area to go where you can hope or even expect to find AM operation taking place. Problem seems to be too many people waiting for someone else to start the party for them. A bunch of us even suggested 3650-3750 as a ballpark area to look on 80. 3885 was a zoo most nights with jammers and other BS. More SSB garbage at 3888 or so, and 3870. Yet time after time I'd hear (or see on here) folks saying "well, I didn't hear anyone down there" instead of calling CQ themselves.

So to some extent, we're as much the problem as the solution, which perhaps makes it easier to fight over a frequency than move. Antenna trimming or crystal control are the least of our problems. As long as we maintain a collective attitude that we must be a particular place or the world will end, the more VFO knobs will become paralyzed by hardened grease.

[K3ZS]

A few years ago, when 40M wasn't as long as it has been, a bunch in Western PA started using 7200 KHz.   It was clear most of the time, no nets or groups were claiming the frequency.