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Author Topic: Audio Frequency Response Test  (Read 9946 times)
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k4kyv
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Don
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« on: March 01, 2007, 12:08:01 AM »

Listen to this comparison between wideband high fidelity audio and highly restricted "communications quality."

http://www.ve7kfm.com/bw.mp3
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

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This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
flintstone mop
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« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2007, 10:37:17 AM »

Hey Mack and Don,
That was a nice test for my still good ole ears. The differnces from 10K to 7K were very subtle. A Ham receiveing the test 10 miles away could hear those slight differences on a very wide receiver. The greater the RF path the greater the band noise would cover those changes in audio. It's a training process I have put my ears through over the years. The audio made a dramatic change when the bandwidth was switched below 6K. I was surprised how clean it sounded down to 6K. 2.9K was the what we hear from our SSB friends. I haven't heard the new extended audio SSB YET. "Enhanced SSB"
I forget who the Ham is in Southern Virginia that uses several mics mixed together, I don't think it is Don. He is a one mic man..............hi
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2007, 01:46:53 PM »

Now I'm going to embarrass you Don! But you started this high fidelity post!

About 10-15 years back or maybe a little more, W4KKO and I built a passive audio filter section and stuck it in the line of one of his HB rigs. It was very flat from 10-2800, rolled off quickly to about 3500 and then went down like a rock. Took us about a week to get the darn thing right. We had it set up to be switched in & out with the flick of a single switch.

You just happened to be around as one of the "test subjects" on the first day of use and you could not report any difference with it in or out. We ask you several times about the audio with his voice and mine, filter in and filter out, no difference reported from you or several others. We really laid a bogus line on you & others about adjusting this & that!

Now get that mixer back out and let's do the old "this is microphone A, this is microphone B, this is microphone C and  this is all 3 mixed together" thing again.

I probably had the 6 kHz AM filter in the 75A-4.  With that, which I used 80% of the time in the old "AM Window" on 3870-90, due to congestion, it would be about impossible to tell any difference between audio out to 3000~ vs out to 5000~ and beyond.  Most AM receivers on the ham bands are probably set up for similar bandwidths under congested condx.  I have a 8 kHz filter which I use more often now down below 3750 where the congestion is less severe.  It does make a big difference, even more so than comparing the 8 kHz filter to the 16k (originally used in an R-390A).

I have two low pass  filters in my audio, with a switch to select the one of choice.  One is a brick-wall filter that cuts off very sharply at 3400~.  You can connect a signal generator, and at 3300~ there is negligible attenuation.  At 3400~ it is 20 dB down or so.  At 3500~ the modulation is undetectable on the scope.  The other one begins to cut off somewhere about 5000~, and the attenuation increases more gradually with frequency, until the attenuation beyond 7500~ is sufficient to make the modulation undetectable on the scope.

Most of the time, I can switch between filters and the other operator cannot tell the difference.  But if he is using a wider bandwidth at the receiver, most of the reports are that there is a very noticeable difference.

I also use a substantial amount of presence rise, beginning about 800~, and rising to about a 9 dB boost somewhere above about 2000~, and it is flat beyond that out to the cutoff point of the filter.  In addition, the D-104 has its own built-in acoustical presence rise.  The combined "presence rise" seems to compensate for the lack of  highs above 3400~, so with that filter I often get reports of "broadcast quality" audio.  Without the boost, reports are that the audio sounds "muddy."

For more information on the response curve I use, see some of the old articles in The AM Press/Exchange by George, W2WLR.  My response curve is very close to what he recommends in his "enhanced AM" articles.  I think he was onto something in those articles, but then got sidetracked and went off in a tangent in other directions.

I still use the combination microphone setup, which I developed in about 1976 while operating out of Cambridge, MA.  It consists of a homebrew 2-channel audio mixer, based on the circuit in the old RCA Receiving Tube Handbook.  Two microphones are mixed together in phase, a D-104 and an Electrovoice model 670 dynamic, which has practically no high frequency response ever since I removed the little high/low impedance transformer that was inside the case, erroneously thinking it had crapped out.  But actually the lack of highs in the  dynamic mic makes it a better choice for mixing with the D-104, since I don't get the  cancellations at various frequencies in the upper frequency range that would otherwise create a "comb filter" effect on the audio response.

At times, under heavy QRM condx, the D-104 does better alone, but usually I get better reports with the combination.  Everybody says the dynamic is too bassy, even with the presence rise switched in.  The presence rise can be switched in/out separately in each microphone  channel.  I have a Sony dynamic mic that sounds very  good over the air with the treble boost switched in, but I rarely use it.

I have noticed a subtle form of distortion, kind of a rattling sound, with the sharp filter, evidently due to ringing as the higher audio frequencies crash against the "brick wall" of the filter.  Others have reported hearing it too, but only after I called their attention to it.

Cave City is a long haul for me, too, for such a small indoor hamfest.  If I could hitch a lift from someone in this area, I'd go with them, but I don't feel like making the drive myself.  It is about 100 miles from here and I don't feel up to the 3-4 hours of combined state highway and interstate driving for the round-trip.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

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This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2007, 10:52:43 AM »

Quote
"you can always hear that Collins quality audio"!

LOL. You most certainly can. It sounds like crap! Collins quality audio - a triple oxymoron.
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kc2ifr
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2007, 02:14:42 PM »

Guess your correct again Steve....INR's 21E sounds like shi%
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2007, 04:45:42 PM »

The reference was to Collins amateur products. Broadcast stuff better sound good.

But, if you want to be picky, Gary's 21E is not Collins audio. He's modified it. Get yer facts straight sonny.

Guess your correct again Steve....INR's 21E sounds like shi%
Quote
"you can always hear that Collins quality audio"!

LOL. You most certainly can. It sounds like crap! Collins quality audio - a triple oxymoron.

WB3HUZ-I listened to a couple of audio modified Collins KW1s that sounded great for many years. Comm. quality audio was standard on all ham Collins gear from the factory, everybody knows that. Never heard any stock ham gear that did have BC quality audio!? Who made that?

KC2IFR-Never heard INRs' 21E on the air but listened to one local AM BC station that used a 21E for many years. They were number one in the market area for many years, great audio chain setup. If a 21E were to be in use here, me thinks I'd pinch down that audio a bunch! Why try to lose your ticket purposely!? 20kw PEP with full audio is a perfect formula to get everybody for 5 miles around you 'down on your case big time'! 
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2007, 04:46:58 PM »

Thanks for making my point. If it's modified it's no longer Collins audio. If it's stock and sounds crummy, it's just what I was saying. I think we are in agreement.


Guess your correct again Steve....INR's 21E sounds like shi%
Quote
"you can always hear that Collins quality audio"!

LOL. You most certainly can. It sounds like crap! Collins quality audio - a triple oxymoron.

WB3HUZ-I listened to a couple of audio modified Collins KW1s that sounded great for many years. Comm. quality audio was standard on all ham Collins gear from the factory, everybody knows that. Never heard any stock ham gear that did have BC quality audio!? Who made that?

KC2IFR-Never heard INRs' 21E on the air but listened to one local AM BC station that used a 21E for many years. They were number one in the market area for many years, great audio chain setup. If a 21E were to be in use here, me thinks I'd pinch down that audio a bunch! Why try to lose your ticket purposely!? 20kw PEP with full audio is a perfect formula to get everybody for 5 miles around you 'down on your case big time'! 
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kc2ifr
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2007, 04:51:57 PM »

But, if you want to be picky, Gary's 21E is not Collins audio. He's modified it. Get yer facts straight sonny.

Thanks for calling me sonny.......Im a lot older than u Steve. Maybe when I grow up I can always be right too!!! Roll Eyes
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 04:54:50 PM »

Who said I was always right?

I love these unsolicited gratuitous assertions. ;-)

But, if you want to be picky, Gary's 21E is not Collins audio. He's modified it. Get yer facts straight sonny.

Thanks for calling me sonny.......Im a lot older than u Steve. Maybe when I grow up I can always be right too!!! Roll Eyes

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flintstone mop
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 05:29:36 PM »

Bill,
You've just been HUZED! Steve's always pulling someone's chain.
And I'm sure it is always tempting to get on the air with something substantial as a 5KW TX box but who has 3 phase power or the antenna system to handle the enormous power? You better have a resonant antenna sytem for that kind of power!  Even a power boost from the "legal limit" to a real KW will not be very noticable by many S-meters.
I found out with that beautiful GE refrigerator style AM Transmitter that 250 watts gets good sig reports. It's the antenna folks.
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
kc2ifr
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2007, 06:45:13 PM »

Hmmmm...I understand that...but my question is this, why does this person feel that he has to "HUZ" anybody. Seems to me that I should feel free to post on this board without being bullied by anybody. Perhaps the MSDS folks are alive and well.
If this post is not pulled I will be surprised.
Bill
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wa1knx
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 11:34:17 PM »

you be bullied by the huz? he be tony sopranos boss, ca-mon.
he do take his cut outa mya air time, I git 29+30 sig reports
from him, and his mob, them ganstas. I be the west cost branch!
hi huzman ;;
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am forever!
Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2007, 10:21:00 PM »

Bill, the Bullying is only in your mind. You posted in another thread that something was a joke and that people are being too serious. Suggest you follow your own advice. If ya wanna joke around, then joke around. But don't take offense when someone else jokes around.

No one is stopping you from posting here and I've never deleted any of your posts. If you have some problem with me, send a PM. If not, I will consider this the end of it.
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