Vintage recordings and preservation

[W5AMI]

There are bound to be some folks out there who have possession of vintage on-the-air recordings from the 60', 70' and 80's, maybe even earlier.  I know at one time Otis (K5SWK) had many, and some dating back into the 50's.  If these exist, they should not be allowed to deteriorate or be overwritten before first getting them on digital for preservation, either on the web or CD/DVD.

I propose that if you know of any such recordings, we somehow get these copied.  I would be willing to do some of them myself.  Any other takers?

It would also be a real nice addition to this website to have such a nostalgic and historic resource for QSOs forgotten.

Let's get together on this and try to gather what we can for now and the future!

Brian / w5ami

[Pete, WA2CWA]

As far as some audio files, we do have this:
http://amfone.net/audio/

And this:
http://www.amwindow.org/audio/htm/audio.htm

Don't see why the stuff couldn't be copied to one of these areas.

And, I'm sure there's more floating around.

[W1UJR]

For the last several years I have been building a libary of audio clips from the air.
I have audio from the early days of the AM Buffalo group, my elmer W2UJR, the classic W2OY, HLR, VJZ, etc.
Even Dale, VE3AAM, in one of his saner moments, is on track.

I'm delighted to accept any clips you may have, in either digital media or emailed form.
I'm especially interested in older, or historic recording from the early days f the radio hobby.
Folks that are no longer with us, but have deep meaning in our hobby.

I've been working on and off on a website where one can hear these sounds or even download them.
At some point I will compile these into a CD for distribution at HossTraders.

So send away, plenty of space here.

[Ed-VA3ES]

Sigh....   

I used to have a treasure trove of classic ham  QSO's on tape.   W2OY, W3PHL, W3YAM, W3DUQ, the "North-east Boys", WA1HLR, WA1EKV, Green Mountain Net with W1ZYZ, and the whole GMN crew... and many of the denizens of 75M,  and much, much more, including the arguments and clashes between the slop-buketeers and the then still dominant AM'ers.  This was in 1965.

Alas, in 1970, whilst working at a campus radio station, I tried to dub the reel.  I mounted the reel on an Ampex AG-300, but forgot to set the  reel size switch, from 10.5" to 7".   Bad mistake.   I fast forwarded the reel, and then tried to stop it.  The brakes, being improperly set, caused the reel to "spill". It was all acetate BTW.  The result was brown confetti all over the studio.    I still rue the day that I did that, and still curse my stupidity to this very day.   

[W5AMI]

Ouch!!  That's too bad Ed...  Almost makes me sick to think about it!

Well, hopefully there are lots of recordings still out there.  Just this morning I was offered assistance to transfer audio from any media that has ever existed, Edison cylinders, wire, you name it.  Now the task at hand is finding the stuff and convincing the owner to let us borrow it long enough to make the transfer.

[Ed-VA3ES]

Ouch!!  That's too bad Ed...  Almost makes me sick to think about it! 

   I still get sick, when I think about it.   

[WA3VJB]

Two people you will want to get ahold of who have vast archives of material:

Mike, WA3WDO

Bert, WA3JYU

You won't be disappointed.

[Bill, KD0HG]

I almost hate to see old analog recordings converted to digital.
Stuff recorded on 1/4" tape going back to the 1940s can still sound stunningly good, without any deterioration at all. It all depends on how the tape was preserved. I have 7-1/2" tapes my dad did in the 1950s at clubs he managed in Chicago that sound like they were recorded yesterday. All done on a Webcor recorder.

Sure, you can burn them to a CD, but is that truly archival quality?

Paul, what are your thoughts on this?

[wa2zdy]

Pigment based CDs such as we use in our burners are thought to be good for 20-30 years.   And of course that's assuming there are compatible readers available that far into the future.

This info I've found through photography magazines and websites as I'm a fairly active amateur photographer and of course data security is critical there too.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Pigment based CDs such as we use in our burners are thought to be good for 20-30 years.   And of course that's assuming there are compatible readers available that far into the future.

This info I've found through photography magazines and websites as I'm a fairly active amateur photographer and of course data security is critical there too.

In the time line of life, 20 to 30 years (I thought it was actually shorter than this) isn't a long time. As Bill pointed out, 1/4 inch tape can still sound good after 40 or 50 years. I have some stuff I recorded back in the late 60's and 70's that still sounds fantastic. But, the problem is that hardware and technology keep advancing forward, so the data archival has to roll with it. And, then you get to a point in time, where the audience no longer has any connection or reference to anything on the archive.

[W5AMI]

Two people you will want to get ahold of who have vast archives of material:

Mike, WA3WDO

Bert, WA3JYU

You won't be disappointed.

Thanks Paul!

[W5AMI]

I almost hate to see old analog recordings converted to digital.
Stuff recorded on 1/4" tape going back to the 1940s can still sound stunningly good, without any deterioration at all. It all depends on how the tape was preserved. I have 7-1/2" tapes my dad did in the 1950s at clubs he managed in Chicago that sound like they were recorded yesterday. All done on a Webcor recorder.

Sure, you can burn them to a CD, but is that truly archival quality?

Paul, what are your thoughts on this?

Of course my intent is not to burn them to a CD then just trash the tape.  The concept is more to preserve the ability of continued transfer as media devices change with time.  At the end of the 20 to 30 years a CD might last made today, a tape device may be so rare that getting it transferred could be very difficult.  There is no media I can think of that is really permanent, so a continued transfer to modern media seems the only way to go.  Digitizing said media will assure the original quality is not degraded as copies are made, unless the copy process actually alters the data bits.

[WA3VJB]

Actually Bill you were reading my mind.

I was wondering whether the spilled spool of acetate was somehow still around, because it probably only snapped in one place then made a big hairball. That was repairable.

But yes, I most certainly would keep the original tape, including those that need to be "baked" because the chemical composition has broken down and the material sticks and squeals to the heads. There are methods well documented to bake a tape, let it cool for duplication, and obtain a few days of useful life out of it before you put it back on the shelf.

Here's one of the more authoritative links:
http://www.tangible-technology.com/tape/baking1.html


Bill, to your point on archival --
CD resolution has gotten pretty good, and can serve as a wholly adequate archival media "for the time being."  The risk of not doing anything with those originals is that they've got a 30-40 year head start on degradation.

I am not convinced that recordable CDs using melted ink to make the tracks will hold up as well as magnetic patterns on good oxide and stable binders and backcoating. Rewriteable CDs will probably prove worse than one-time CDRs when it comes to spooge and drift of those inks in the time ahead.

Who would have thought we would need a contraption like this to put the chemicals back together in open reel tape?




Regardless, it's better to take an unstable media of some kind and spool it down ASAP.

Do it today and good luck !

[W1DAN]

Hi all:

Good topic!

I have about 10-15 years of random cassette recordings of ham AM and SWL. I still record today. "One of these days" I will transfer these cassettes to WAV files. When this is done, anyone is free to have a copy of the recordings.

One thought is to have one mother of a server and have a web site that has everyone's audio on it for searching and listening.  Playback audio could be in MP3 or WMA form.

I also do audio archiving and restoration as a hobby. I have baked tapes successfully. My main interest is 78RPM and radio transcription records.

Archiving to WAV on CDR is good, but not guaranteed. The resolution (especially 24bit 96khz) is better than anyone can hear, far better than a 7.5ips reel to reel. My thought is a sample rate 22.050khz 16 bit would be fine for most SW recordings.

Thanks for reading!
73
Dan
W1DAN

[WA3VJB]

Dan, I wonder if we ever will have a problem finding computer hardware that can decode today's standards? Right now the most prevalent is the 44.1 standard used in commercailly-produced music CDs
Some of the more exotic samples may never catch on in the mainstream, or have a level of acceptance as a specialty in the short term.

[John Holotko]

For the last several years I have been building a libary of audio clips from the air.
I have audio from the early days of the AM Buffalo group, my elmer W2UJR, the classic W2OY, HLR, VJZ, etc.
Even Dale, VE3AAM, in one of his saner moments, is on track.

I'm delighted to accept any clips you may have, in either digital media or emailed form.
I'm especially interested in older, or historic recording from the early days f the radio hobby.
Folks that are no longer with us, but have deep meaning in our hobby.

I've been working on and off on a website where one can hear these sounds or even download them.
At some point I will compile these into a CD for distribution at HossTraders.

Sounds loe

So send away, plenty of space her

Sounds like an excellent idea Bruce. I'd love to hear a copy of such a CD. I'm pretty sure it would jog my  memory quite a bit. Way back in the early 70's nbefore I was licensed  I used to roll tape on some of the AM'ers. I was totally fascinated with the qualoity of the voiices I heard on the air back then. Needless to say I felt a sense of great pride when I finally got my ticket and was able to participate in my very first AM QSO. If I do manage to unearth any of my old tapes and if they are in any kind of decent shape, i.e.playable with good content, I'd be more than happy to contribute what I can.

ize

ize

[W1DAN]

Hi Paul:

22.050khz is a standard as is 44.1khz, all codecs will sync up to 22.1khz. However, I agree that whatever audio form it'll be in, that should be the most accessible, so 44.1 will probably be it.

BTW, I bought something for you at the MIT flea. You owe me big bux when we meet at Hosstraders!

Dan

[W1DAN]

Bruce:

Glad you are working on the web site!

I will get my audio to you. I have to transfer all my cassettes to CD. This'll take a long time.

Think of accepting cash donations for the support of the venture. I am happy to donate.

73,
Dan

[WA3VJB]

OBOY, I hope big bux equal big size.
I dassn't ask John/Steve to haul more stuff for me.
Already bummed a favor the other night.
Sheez, I ought to just show up my damn self.

BTW, I bought something for you at the MIT flea. You owe me big bux when we meet at Hosstraders!

Dan

[W1DAN]

Paul:

It is a small item. Cheep too!

See ya Saturday?

Dan

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

One thought is to have one mother of a server and have a web site that has everyone's audio on it for searching and listening.  Playback audio could be in MP3 or WMA form.

MP4 is more up to date, provides better audio quality and takes less space.

You can archive in almost any format, as long as the file and encoding format specifics are open/accessible and well documented. Lossless varieties preferable.

[W1DAN]

Hi Steve:

I thought WMA used AAC, the same algorythim as MP4?

Yup, small and good for streaming.

Dan

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

It might. Thing is, the MPEG spec is open and documented. Not sure if WMA is similar.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

From what I can tell, WMA does NOT use AAC. It's proprietary and seems to be falling in the market place.

From Wikipedia.

Windows Media Audio (WMA) is a proprietary compressed audio file format developed by Microsoft. It was initially intended to be a competitor to the popular MP3 format, though in terms of popularity of WMA files versus mp3 files, this never came close to occuring. However, with the introduction of WMA Pro and Apple's iTunes Music Store, WMA has positioned itself as a competitor to the Advanced Audio Coding format used by Apple and is part of Microsoft's Windows Media framework.

Sound quality

Initially Microsoft claimed that files in WMA format sounded better than MP3 files at the same bitrate; Microsoft also claimed that WMA files sounded better than MP3 files at higher bitrates. However, double blind listening tests with other lossy audio codecs have consistently failed to support Microsoft's claims about its superior quality. Indeed, the first independent test (2004/05) with WMA standard encoder provided by the Windows Media 9, conducted at 128 kb/s, showed that WMA was roughly equivalent to MP3 encoded with LAME encoder, inferior to AAC and Vorbis, and superior to ATRAC3 (software version). WMA 10 Pro, however, starting with Windows Media Player 11 is meant to complete against the popular AAC and low bitrate aacPlus, and is clearly superior to ordinary WMA.