Looking for diplomatic idea - Re: Interference complaint

[Bill, KD0HG]

OK, here's the skinny, minus names and calls.

I got into work today and found an email marked 'urgent'.

It was from a ham organization and addressed to the engineer for K***, an area AM station.

In it, the letter said the 3rd harmonic of this AM broadcast station was so strong that it was interfering with ham communications on the 80 meter band four miles from the 10 KW transmitter.

Several months ago I had done annual harmonic and occupied bandwidth measurements on that AM transmitter and the 3rd harmonic was -90 db below the carrier. As it was the year before, and the year before that.

So I passed this along in a reply.

I received an email back from the ham complainant,  stating that he was using the metal gutters on his house as an 80 meter antenna.

Well, OK, then. We've got rectification in the unsoldered, weather-exposed joints of the home's gutters.

Now, I'm going to take the time to do another analysis of that 10 KW AM transmitter with the spectrum analyzer- Just in case, somehow, some way, something 'broke'.

But for crying out loud....Didn't the fact that someone was using metal gutters as a receiving antenna register with anyone from this ham organization before they complained? No one tried using a different receiving antenna, like a simple loop? No one understood the possibility of rectification in exposed, corroded, wet metal joints before complaining?

<bitch mode off>


Sri, I have to let off some steam.

[WA3VJB]

Too bad you constrained the range of answers to those that are "diplomatic."

Would patronizing be okay ?

In that case, spend a few minutes and explain, as if to a small child, that there are situations where chemicals don't like each other and they fight, often making noise and especially when they are near other things, like radio signals.



As responsible parents, we can separate the two chemicals, apply some salve, and take other steps to see to it the misbehavior does not happen just because they are near other things, like radio signals which are friendly and benevolent at all times.

[Bill, KD0HG]

LOL, Paul, thanks I needed that.

[W2JBL]

i bet he's got the noise blanker and two preamps in his ricebox cranked to the max too. a 7.62mm 168Gr. BTHP should cure the problem, or get him on a real antenna... maybe he just needs an Elmer.

[Bill, KD0HG]

The thing is, this is just like the TVI reports I used to get from uninformed people in the neighborhood.  But these are HAMS!

[n3lrx]

"Didn't the fact that someone was using metal gutters as a receiving antenna register with anyone from this ham organization before they complained? No one tried using a different receiving antenna, like a simple loop? No one understood the possibility of rectification in exposed, corroded, wet metal joints before complaining?"

If the Mediating 'Ham Organization' begins with an 'A' and ends with an 'L' Nuff-Said.

[Joe Long]

If an "organization" that perports to represent other hams is that stupid then they should have their name published. Give this no-code/no-theory another five years and then see what you get.  JOE

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

What does knowing code have to do with understanding RF?

Rather than alienating the guy and the organization with some of the brash and uncivil suggestions made here, just let them know about the potential problems with using the gutter as an antenna. You may go one better and win some major karma points and some new ham friends by helping them put up a real antenna.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Good point. It's not like we can send them back, or expect great things in the future through osmosis. I have no problem helping others with my limited knowledge, beyond their willingness to accept help or want to learn.

One thing that might be a good selling point to get the guy to use even a simple wire ant would be to point out the obvious issues he's having now and how applying this to his transmitted signal translates to similar issues with his signal, resulting in a complaint filed against his station. The fact that it hasn't happened yet only means he's been lucky and should count his blessings and deal with it now.

Or perhaps a big magmount is the answer?   

[W1ATR]

More than likely, with that JS'ed setup, he's tearing up the neighbors also, but without a visible outside antenna, the pitchforks are kept on standby. If someone gives him a 6 buck half-wave dipole for 80m, the neighborhood may just promote him to SK.

What I would like to know is how they came to blame the radio station knowing how f'ed up the gutter idea actually is. Maybe the ricebox manufacturers need to address these issues in they're manuals.

Yaecomwood addendum:

Warning: Do not hook your new radios' antenna jack to objects other than actual antenna designs. Unacceptable antennas would be objects like;

Rain gutters.

Water pipes, (while they are installed in your house and have water in them.)

Electrical outlets, (those holes in the wall that electricity comes out of.)

Garbage cans, (neither metal, nor plastic.)

Pets leashes, chains, or otherwise anything connected to a living creature, this includes yourself. *See below

     ** This includes nipple clamps, earrings, or any other body piercing.

Cable TV wiring, (The picture box)

Telephone wiring, (Your Internet porn porthole)

Metal table legs. (This also includes chair legs)

Metal table frames

Aluminum siding, tin roofing, chicken wire, or anything else your home may be made from.

Car bumpers*

     **Exception: Car bumpers may be used if the car will not be moving any time soon.

Any household appliances: (this includes units installed on the front lawn as well as functioning indoor units.)

If any of these guidelines are not followed, your 1-year warranty may be void.

Please contact the manufacturer for further explanation of these guidelines

[WA3VJB]

Jared you're right that the manufactuers could helpfully warn against oddball antennas, unless the user really understands what's what. Once upon a time the lobbying group for the hobby would, itself, check out a complaint and make suggestions before they EVER would take that to the outside world, for the sake of protecting public relations.

Here, the complaint was either not checked, or not understood before the lobbying group apparently passed it directly to the broadcast engineer. They are lucky the person happens to be a ham and has the OPTION of tutoring the aggrieved ham in antenna design.

But the risk is very high such a letter would reach a non-ham, unfriendly corporate staffer who could get a bad impression from any suggestion the staiton, not the ham, is having the problem.

I see a lost opportunity for the lobbying group to do its part to nurture a ham in antenna design, first and foremost, and not burden the engineer with what appears to be a complaint without basis from an unknowledgable radio hobbyist.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Not knowing all the specifics of this case, any conclusions drawn are invalid and amount to nothing more than speculation.

[WA3VJB]

Didn't the fact that someone was using metal gutters as a receiving antenna register with anyone from this ham organization before they complained? No one tried using a different receiving antenna, like a simple loop? No one understood the possibility of rectification in exposed, corroded, wet metal joints before complaining?

There are some good questions raised.

[W1ATR]

Paul said: 'Here, the complaint was either not checked, or not understood before the lobbying group apparently passed it directly to the broadcast engineer. '

As Steve said, we don't really know any specifics. For all we know, this organization Bill received the compliant from could just be the local repeater bunch. If this is the case, perhaps they don't have access to anyone who can offer up experience dealing with RF problems in the HF band. This is unfortunate, but very possible.

I agree with you, Paul, a zillion percent, on elmering others into the hobby, but I've noticed a few times too many, that some people just don't want to hear it. There's plenty of Op's around that just get to one point in this hobby, settle in, and never express and desire to go any further.

Then there's my favorite kind of people. The "Pass the buck" personality. "Well, it can't be MY fault, it MUST be someone else's." These types find it easier to bitch about something rather than actually DO something about it. Those people won't help themselves, and usually won't receive help from anybody else. I noticed this type of behavior a LOT when I first received my NCT and started yacking on VHF.

Not to drift off too far, but, I had one knuckle head tell me something was wrong on my end because I was dropping out during TX.(This was on a VHF simplex freq.) Ok, are you sure it's not on your end because everything here is new? (My station consisted of a homegrown 8el yagi, Andrew 4-buck-a-foot feedline, and an ICOM 910H.) He tells me, in a nicely condesending tone, "No, it has to be on your end. I set all this up last year and I know everything is good." The next day, I checked everything out from the roof to the desk and all was clean and tight. I never got any bad reports from anyone else, so I carried on as normal. I had to go to that guy's QTH to pick something up, and I was looking at his antenna setup and noticed a rather large lump in the co-ass where it come out his window. I swear this is an exact account. I asked what the lump of tape was all about, he told me he had to put together two pieces of coax to get to the roof and he didn't have any connectors. I slit the tape open and there were two red wire nuts under there and the copper center and braid were all green and nasty. He refused to let me put two connectors on, and I even offered a short piece of feedline for free, but he didn't want to change it. He told me one of his buddies told him that was OK to do. I told him to ask his buddy if he knew the difference between ladder line and coax!!

Some people can't be helped.   

[W1ATR]

Phil said: "got into ham".

That's funny, I'm getting into some ham right now as I'm reading this and some provolone, and a nice hard roll, LOL.

I agree that we should clean up the whole license testing structure, but, I go easy on the whole chicken banders thing. So far I helped 3 guys "get into ham", hihi, all three were old chicken banders from back in the day, and all three are doing just fine. Operators behaving like lids is directly proportional to maturity. I was listening on 39*3kc last night around 1am est (just picked up a cheap cv-591 detector for my 390a, but it didn't work until last night), and these guys had echo, and arguing, and what not.

Now I haven't been a licensed amateur for more than a couple of years, but I've been a radio tinkerer for more than 20. I was a late 80's mid 90's chicken bander, but was never into that whole echo splatter distortion trash the band kind of thing. I lived on a hill with a nice size lot, had a 70 foot rohn 25 with a 7el yagi (40ft boom) on top and big enough tubes in the basement to keep the ice off it. This is where my love for Junkston's came from. (This is where the learning curve kicks in as there wasn't anyone around to fix these BA's) We ran invader2000's on SSB, at one point there was 3 Johnson 500's on the bench, (only one being my personal rig which I still have. It'll be here till the estate sale), and a mountain of gear, test equip, boxes of parts everywhere, piled to the ceiling. I would hunt the yellow sheets,(remember those), and classifieds, and festers and spend every available dime buying parts, and more parts. The final grand finale was the J500 driving a converted Henry 3000D(with a very short tank coil , into that 7el and the town came up and said the ant was 40 feet too high and it was causing interference to the neighborhood.(Come to find out it was some cheap jerkoff stealing cable up the street with a bad connection.) Lowering my antenna did nothing but bring in all kinds of rfi to my house and close neighbors, and by that time, my interest was waning anyhow. After 12 years off the air and dumping off most of that old gear, I decided I wanted to take a new start with the radio, and went and "got into ham".

There really isn't a point here, but I think the kind of Op's we want to help into the hobby need to be the kind that want to learn, that want to experiment, and have a genuine interest in radio. The average Joe Shmuck Public walking around with an ipod in his ears and his head in the clouds isn't interested in this form of communications anyway. If they aren't willing to actually learn something about radio,then they're time here will be short and discouraging.

The loud mouths and other jackasses can all stay put, we have enough lids here as it is. 

[Bill, KD0HG]

OK, Gents, here's what I did.

I went out and re-measured the 3rd harmonic of the AM BCB station at -86 db down from the carrier, the FCC spec is -80 db, just to verify everything was still OK.

I advised the ham having a problem along with the others copied on the complaint of my measurements and I suggested that the problem might very well be rectification occurring in the unsoldered joints of the gutter antenna system. I suggested the use of a shielded receiving loop as described in the ARRL Antenna book, or a simple *balanced* antenna lying on the ground, sufficiently decoupled from the home's gutters.

Look, I don't want to flame the ham having the problem, but I am dismayed that no one at the ham club bothered asking fundamental questions OR provided some simple suggestions as I did before registering a complaint with the radio station.

[WD8BIL]

Of course, if Congress would give the FCC a decent budget, they should eliminate the Volunteer Examiner system, as we are now reaping its sad results.

C'mon Phil ..... they need that money to give illegal aliens social security benefits !!!

Seriously Bill, A well stated letter explaining the gutter antenna's downfalls, along with a number he can reach you at work to discuss a better antenna, would probably go a long way toward reconciling with this guy.

But I'm just a buddly..... whatdoiknow ?

[Jim, W5JO]

I advised the ham having a problem along with the others copied on the complaint of my measurements and I suggested that the problem might very well be rectification occurring in the unsoldered joints of the gutter antenna system. I suggested the use of a shielded receiving loop as described in the ARRL Antenna book, or a simple *balanced* antenna lying on the ground, sufficiently decoupled from the home's gutters.

Boy I am torn by this.  Maybe there is an opportunity to gain some of their confidence and turn them into knowledgeable hams, but most will not.

Otherwise I am a bit hesitant to get into repairing, directing the repair or suggesting solutions unless they directly ask for the help.  Until they realize they have a problem, you are preaching to the wind.  It might be good for them to make a formal complaint and go through the process to see that their operation will be scrutinized.  The officials will direct them to cure their problems first.  That would be a good lesson by someone outside the debate.

If you ilnvolve yourself in the repairs, then you may have bought the problems and given them an avenue to make a louder complaint.  It might be better to just inform them officially that your station meets the technical requirements of the law, and should they need futher assistance, suggest they contact someone else and give them a list of names.  It seems as if they see you as part of the problem and most likely will not rely on your suggestions.  I don't think, at this point, I would go any further.

[The Slab Bacon]

Being a ham and living in a close neighborhood I have dealt with rfi complaints for many years. Sometimes it all comes down to "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome. I have had 1 neighbor call me on the phone and cuss me out 1 day when I had the entire shack ripped apart for rewiring and couldnr have transmitted if my life depended on it. I had 1 neighbor call zoning on me because the local crappy-assed cable company wont fix the leaky cable system.(you can watch cable tv in my back yard on any tv with rabbit ears) Zoning then issued me a $12,800.00 fine for my tower being over Baltimore county's 50' total antenna height limit. I had 1 neighbor call the FCC before before contacting me and having numerous hissy fits with me after they told her that "you and him will have to work it out". But the best one was one wacko old ladiy who used to be waiting in my driveway tapping her foot on the ground and waiting for me to come home from work, because her crapped out remote control would turn the tv on and off , and change channels by itself.
ALL WHEN I WASNT EVEN HOME!! After showing her that all of my equipment was shut off and disconnected she still wasnt astisfied that it wasnt anything that I was doing. I am courteous enough that i run low power during tv prime time, but as far as anything else goes they all can pound sand where the sun doesnt shine!!

Now for the crux of the biscuit! A new neighbor has a friggin hot tub, the heaters in that SOB raise total hell in my receivers, sometimes to the point of all bands except vhf being unlistenable.

Now one of the things that I have had slapped in my face is that "you are interfering with my right to watch tv". I should have every bit as much of a right to listen to my radios as they have to their tv's, but I have no choice but to deal with the interferance from their appliances. So from here on most of the rfi complaints
(especially the ones with bad attitudes) fall on very deaf ears at my qth! The ones that call me on the phone and politely ask me to take a TEMPORARY standby because they are on the phone or something like that I will oblige, but the rest can kiss my a....!
                                                       The Slab Bacon 

[W1RKW]

I don't think this person is a ham but just a scanner enthusiast but look at this antenna install that appeared on hamsexy.  http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/?p=695#comments

I think it's safe to say that these types are in the ham ranks too.  God be with them.

[WA3VJB]

Jim this speaks directly to my point about a lost opportunity for some good PR.

If you ilnvolve yourself in the repairs, then you may have bought the problems and given them an avenue to make a louder complaint.  It might be better to just inform them officially that your station meets the technical requirements of the law, and should they need futher assistance, suggest they contact someone else and give them a list of names.  It seems as if they see you as part of the problem and most likely will not rely on your suggestions.  I don't think, at this point, I would go any further.

The ham club, that I mistakenly thought was based in Newington, missed a chance to ascertain that the ham's station met technical standards expected of us, and certainly caused some risk that we, the hobby, would be seen as know-nothings had the recipient of this complaint been less charitable than Bill.

I also sense, without more than a guess, that getting involved in the repairs could create a dependency for many future faults, real and imagined, that could be laid at the feet of the broadcast station.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Above all, do not even think about working on this idiot's equipment. By getting further involved in this matter, you would be incurring liability upon yourself and the broadcast station. Make sure that the results of the harmonic measurements and pictures of the spectrum analyzer display are readily available in the broadcast station's files. That way, if the matter escalates, you and the station are protected. You have documentation in case this wannabe "ham" files a complaint with the FCC.

The ham club, that I mistakenly thought was based in Newington, missed a chance to ascertain that the ham's station met technical standards expected of us, and certainly caused some risk that we, the hobby, would be seen as know-nothings had the recipient of this complaint been less charitable than Bill.

Unfortunately, most of the "graduates" of the cram schools run by various radio clubs in conjunction with the Volunteer Examiner program are a bunch of know-nothings. And that is exactly how I would have seen this clown and his radio club buddies had that complaint come to me, rather than to Bill. I probably would have been much less charitable as well, since I am fed up with the progressive deterioration and CBification of amateur radio in this country.

Phil, I am also appalled with the ham radio 'big picture', but a refusal to help out isn't going to fix the problem. I really believe it's incumbent on OTs like you and me not to be @holes but to offer counsel and suggestions and not to flame or publicly embarrass anyone.

I agree that it would prolly be prudent not to pick up a soldering iron, but I did offer suggestions and make measurements and that's as far as I'm going with this. Regrettably, those days of hands-on assistance are probably gone, for the reasons that you and Jim have mentioned. My life is complicated enough!- LOL.

Again, the reason that I brought this up to begin with was this complaint shouldn't have passed muster with the ham club to begin with, until satisfied the complaintant has set up his station using good engineering practice, which it clearly wasn't. I'm not flaming any individual, but I'm frankly just very surprised at something like this being escalated without getting their ducks in a row first...

[W1RKW]

The problem will be is how will the FeCee weigh the issue, ham vs. commercial station.

This is just my opinion but I think if the FeCee were to get involved because of this moron ham chances are that after any investigation the idiot ham would have the burden of proof and ultimately look like the idiot that he is and the commercial station would be OK fine.  Just look where the money goes.

As long as the commercial station is legal with respect to it's rules and regs the point is moot. 

This sort of parallels the dim wits who own part 15 devices and blame amateurs (expert amateurs to boot) for their problems.

[W1ATR]

I don't think this person is a ham but just a scanner enthusiast but look at this antenna install that appeared on hamsexy.  http://www.hamsexy.com/cms/?p=695#comments

I think it's safe to say that these types are in the ham ranks too.  God be with them.

Here's a link to the thread: http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57865

There used one of those people across the street from me. The dumba$$ clamped a satellite dish to the masthead. The homeowner was a real jerk, but his neighbor was a customer of mine. I told my customer how to get even with this dummy, but he had to time it right. The guy was supposed to be a big football nut, and I told my customer to wait until 8am on Superbowl Sunday and call CL&P and tell them you just saw a spark on the neighbors house where the wires come in. I didn't witness it, but I guess the util. came up right away for that call and tossed his dish on the lawn.

Would have loved to see it.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Maybe the best thing is to contact the Colorado Technical Specialist program which is part of the American Radio Relay League Field Organization.
http://www.k0nr.com/ts.html
Let one of these people try to provide some education to the radio club and possible resolutions to the problem. You can provide them with your analysis and tests and let them handle the problem solving. It's great to be the nice and helpful person, but you're fighting a losing battle if you try to do it alone.

Here's the list of Technical Specialists in your area as part of the Colorado program:
http://www.k0nr.com/contacts.html