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Author Topic: Rca Transmitting tube manual TT5: page 299 unusual circuit  (Read 17799 times)
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 03:55:29 PM »


Then tell me what is at the junction of C7, C8 and T2.


While Dons last explanation winds a RF ground path thru C5,6, and 8,  'splain to me how that even comes close to good engineering by placing some level of the plate RF on the screen pins?Huh ... And why in hell would anyone use an RFC to the  L5 CT and then feed RF in to the bottom end that has to wander around before finding some sort of compromise ground?

All I see at the junction of C7, C8 and T2 is the  rf choke L4.  But L4 doesn't place any plate rf on the screen pins.  The other end of the rf choke is connected to the mid-tap of the balanced tank circuit, which is at precisely a cold spot on the coil, rf-wise, so the bottom end of the choke doesn't feed any significant rf to ground.  The purpose of L4 is to carry the DC plate current to the coil, which in turn carries it to the tube plates. Since the tank circuit may not be perfectly balanced, there may be a slight amount of rf voltage at the mid-tap, but the series inductive reactance imposed by L4 and the by-passing effect of C5 and C6 effectively remove any trace of plate rf from the screen pins. The second function of L4 is to isolate the mid-tap of the coil where it is connected to the +HV, from the rotor/frame of the split-stator capacitor. You never want to directly connect the midtap of the coil to the rotor of the capacitor, hence the rf choke.

There is undoubtedly more plate RF on the screen pins via the internal screen-plate capacitance in the tube than from the midtap of the coil, through L4 and C8, on the way to ground through C5 and C6.

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I also dont buy into the wandering explanation about grounding and an absolute need for a common point ground at low ham frequencies.

Did you ever try to get the parasitics out of a 160m-20m push-pull, cross-neutralised, triode final?

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Heck, that circuit doesnt even have any parasitic suppressors which limits its frequency anyway to low bands where the 813 parasitic paths are effectively swamped.

I do find that questionable, and I wonder what year that write-up was done.  I have never been able to build a final for the low ham frequencies without parasitic suppressors that was not squirrelly, whether using beam tetrodes or triodes, link-coupled or pi-network. Art Collins introduced the concept of parasitic suppressors some time about 1934 with one of his production amateur transmitters.  What was so amazing about that rig was how smoothly it tuned up.  The secret was the suppressors, which consisted of the familiar composition resistors with a few turns of wire wound round them.  Up to that point, the suppressors were absent from ham construction (look over the circuits described in the old Handbooks).  Hams just assumed that transmitters were inherently squirrelly to tune up, and put up with the annoyance, doing the best they could with what they had, until the Collins rig proved otherwise.

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I also detest an unswamped by a carbon resistor RFC in the grid circuit and always do that when substantial grid current is involved and a 2-3K carbon resistor alone is impractical. With a RFC and a HF effective value bypass the TGTP possibility is slim to none but it still opens the possibility of a LF oscillation which can often go undetected without an SA scan.

The TGTP oscillation caused by an rf choke in both the grid and plate curcuit almost always is LF, or near the operating frequency, not VHF. With a push-pull amplifier like the one here, there should be no significant rf grid current through the grid resistor, just DC, since the grid resistor is connected to the mid-point of the balanced grid tank which should be an rf cold spot. With a single-ended grid tank, the cold end of the coil should be by-passed directly to the common ground point with a capacitor, and another by-pass capacitor should be added to the other side of the grid resistor as well, where the lead to the the bias supply and metering circuits is connected.  There is no reason to use an rf choke here in any case.



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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 06:25:52 PM »

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All I see at the junction of C7, C8 and T2 is the  rf choke L4.etc, etc.....

Maybe in a perfect world but its still poor engineering and you still havent shown me a real life example or circuit in a HB or mag.

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Did you ever try to get the parasitics out of a 160m-20m push-pull, cross-neutralised, triode final?

Nope. It was either 80-10 with 250TH's and 810's or just 6M with 100TH's. Even at 17 I listened to an OT and it worked well following his suggestions. The 100TH's were years later.

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The TGTP oscillation caused by an rf choke in both the grid and plate curcuit almost always is LF, or near the operating frequency, not VHF

TGTP is near the operating frequency, LF (usually below the BCB) is a loop where most of the energy is in the input path and the output coil acts just as a piece of wire. Often there is grid current and no or very little plate current. Ive helped debug quite a few HB amps over the years that acted that way.

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With a push-pull amplifier like the one here, there should be no significant rf grid current through the grid resistor, just DC, since the grid resistor is connected to the mid-point of the balanced grid tank which should be an rf cold spot.


Im rather well aware of that and how tank circuits work and was referring to DC current only which I had thought was obvious. Sorry if I confused you as I tend to assume too much at times and type fast.

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There is no reason to use an rf choke here in any case.

No argument from me but a few thick headed types keep insisting on using them "since if its in the book its gotta be a perfect design". I often hear TGTP artifacts on the bands popping in and out that coincide with identifiable stations on the band monitor SA.


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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 06:52:33 PM »

In my HF-300 rig, the split stator grid capacitor is elevated a few inches above the metal deck, so that the grid tuning knob is even with the plate tuning. It was extremely squirrelly even with the parasitic chokes. I had about a 3/4" wide copper strap attached to the mid-point on the  capacitor frame with the other end connected to the grounding point.  With much trial and error, I finally tamed it down by using two copper straps, each one connected to the common ground point, and the other ends each connected to one of the end plates of the grid tuning capacitor. That capacitor is only about 8" long. Just relocating those ground leads to the capacitor a few inches made the difference. Doesn't take much at VHF.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 10:48:20 AM »

I have discussed this circuit with several hams ota ... Rex, K4JBJ has built several 813 am tx and he commented that the circuit was a way to improve the performance of a 813 .... when he said this, I recollected ot qsos about how some 813's were 'hard to modulate'
Reed W2CQH decided to look at the turns ratio in a spare ART13 mod xfmr, which uses a tertiary screen winding ... he found a 3:1 turns ratio from the output winding to the screen winding ... I will use this for the 813 data entry

**** some of this data is extrapolated from user notes and will be marked ***

tube type      dc screen voltage      ac peak modulating voltage       notes

6146                175                         105                                    *** many designs over mod the screen - see other threads

4-65                250                          250                                    Eimac data sheet

4-125               350                          210                                    Eimac data sheet

813                  350                          350                                    ART13 mod xfmr

4-250/400         400                          350                                    Eimac data sheets

4-1000              500                          250                                    Eimac data sheet


conclusions are still being formulated but here are some ideas for discussion:

1. those tetrodes that need equal amounts of dc and ac peak voltages would  work most flexibly from resistor dropping the       modulated B+

2. those tetrodes that need lesser amounts of screen modulating would benefit from resistor ratioing of mod/unmod screen V

3. choke modulating the screen (self mod) MAY be difficult in those tubes requiring equal amounts of dc and ac V and require a 'boost' circuit which is what kindled this thread in the first place

4.some families of tubes (4x150/4cx250 etc) require a low impedance source to provide the required screen ac swing to modulate cleanly
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Beefus

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It would from many blunders free us.         Robert Burns
Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 08:46:30 PM »

In 1989, Deano wrote about this vis-a-vis the 6146.

http://www.amwindow.org/tech/htm/scrnmod.htm
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KM1H
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« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2012, 05:28:58 PM »

The Champ 300/350 used a seperate screen supply and a choke and sounds good on all bands without that RCA nightmare.
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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2012, 01:11:19 AM »


3. choke modulating the screen (self mod) MAY be difficult in those tubes requiring equal amounts of dc and ac V and require a 'boost' circuit which is what kindled this thread in the first place

4.some families of tubes (4x150/4cx250 etc) require a low impedance source to provide the required screen ac swing to modulate cleanly

3. Can you elaborate on this 'boost' please? I'm not sure I understand.

4. The only amp here w/ 4X150's makes negative screen current under certain conditions. Is this why #4 is stated?
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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2012, 05:31:15 PM »

Hi Patrick ... hows the bunker of doom going ?

3. the 'boost' circuit is the shift of the plate bypass cap (C8 in this TT5 circuit) from ground to the PA screens.  It is speculated that this would increase the screen ac swing as well as restore some higher freq response

4. the note about 4X150 family is from an Eimac data sheet application note.  The negative screen current is from plate secondary emission.  keeping this under control usually requires resistive loading to ground in the screen supply (from Econoco notes)

73   John
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Beefus

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KM1H
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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2012, 09:30:14 PM »

Is this "boost" documented anywhere?
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« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2012, 10:37:15 AM »

Hi Carl .... no, its just a possibility ... an ota discussion with Reed W2CQH this morning about this thread admitted that there is an opportunity to extend the am state-of-the-art here by measuring and quantifying the effects of screen voltage and current with distortion reduction in high level am ...any takers ?
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Beefus

O would some power the gift give us
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It would from many blunders free us.         Robert Burns
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