How 'bout those Red Sox

[KA1ZGC]

The money does matter, big time. Just look at the at Red Sox lineup, especially the guys that can really get it done:

Beckett  & Lowell from the Marlins - big bucks.

Bad example.

The only money that changed hands in that deal was for Beckett. In order to get Beckett, we had to take Lowell, whom all of baseball had written off as worn-out, past his prime, liability, please take him off our hands if you want our star pitcher.

For Mike Lowell, the Sox essentially paid zero, and got a huge return on that investment.

That's the real money game in baseball: it's not how much money you have to spend, it's how you spend it.

Manny of course from the tribe bigger bucks
Schilling big bucks - Arizona I think
Daisuke -  ridiculous bucks from Japan
None of these guys came up through the Red Sox Farm system.

Nobody on that list did, but that's not the whole roster, and only a few of the real play-makers. Jacoby Ellsbury is a great example of the Red Sox farm system doing the right thing, and not the only example.

How many other teams have pulled guys up from the minors to pitch a no-hitter in their major-league debut?

Don't forget, the Red Sox current owners bought the team in '04. It takes years to work a kid through the minors and get him ready for prime time. Under previous ownership, the farm system was not being fed and watered properly, so the prospects were few. That is changing quickly enough.

Just as an amusing antectdote, Mike Lowell came up through the Yankees' farm system

The "small market" teams like the tribe cannot compete for these type of players.

Baseball is in dire need of a salary cap (ala, the NFL or NBA) or it will be a boring annual coronation of the Yankees, Red Sox, Yankees, blah, blah.....

So, when Cleveland obliterated New York in the ALDS, that was because Steinbrenner was delinquent on payments that week? What about their loss to the Marlins (the freakin' Marlins, fer peetsake) in their World Series bout a few years back? Did money cause the Yanks to fold like lawn chairs?

Money can buy you all the headline players you want, but it can't make them into a team, it can't make them execute the plays correctly, it can't make them ten years younger, and so on. Money can buy the talent, it cannot buy the outcome.

Baseball doesn't have a salary cap, but it does have the luxury tax structure. It's a sort of "soft cap", and it doesn't stop King George blowing his coin on every washed-up name-value-only player he can, and look where that got him.

Besides, just try and get the idea of a salary cap past the union and see how far out of town you make it.

By the way, I'm glad to see that Sox victories are simply going to be assumed from this point forward. Just a few years ago, we were the ones on the bottom, looking up.

After the almost-century-long drought we had, a few World Series championships coming to Boston won't kill the rest of you (though we much appreciate the resentment )

No matter how the money is regulated, no matter who plays on what team, no matter how level the salaries: there can only be one victor.

May the best team win! 

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

In two weeks, it won't matter.

Mbwahahahaha!

LOL!! You must know Bill, that even when that happens, there will be whining and excuses galore. The Red Sox are the only Boston team I don't like. I'm a Yankmee fan (credit to HUZ for the name), but would love to see the Rockies win their first. Indiains would've been nice to see in there, too.

[WD8BIL]

Money can buy the talent, it cannot buy the outcome.

Very well stated Thom.
My original assessment stands.
It was the experience that won it for Boston. (or lack of it on our part in Cleveland)
That type of pressure can be crushing for a young team. After the series with the ever present Yankees the Tribe was all but used up. They got a boost at home from the crowd but it just wasn't enough.

Again, congrats to the Sox. When it came to crunch time..... they did !!

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

So, when Cleveland obliterated New York in the ALDS, that was because Steinbrenner was delinquent on payments that week? What about their loss to the Marlins (the freakin' Marlins, fer peetsake) in their World Series bout a few years back? Did money cause the Yanks to fold like lawn chairs?

Nice cherry pick and incomplete analysis. So the Marlins beat the Yankmees. So did the Diamondback. Within a year or two BOTH of those teams were dismantled because the team could not pay to keep their BIG name players (you know losers like Beckett and Shilling. Who do they play for now? Or Randy Johnson who went to the Yankmees.)

You are missing the argument. It's not that smaller market teams can't compete with big market teams like the Yankmees and Red Sucks, it's that they can't do it over any significant period of time. Let's talk about Cleveland. They had a very good team in the mid and late 90's. But nearly all their players left for big bucks elsewhere. Guys like Albert Belle, Jim Thome, Roberto Alomar, and Manny Ramirez (oh that's right he now plays for the Red Sucks). These guys were at or near the top at their positions. Do you think the Indians may have vied for a few more World Series in the lat 90's and early 2000's if these guys would have stayed? But they left and Cleveland had a relatively poor team until the last few years, a long period of rebuilding. Cleveland was lucky to keep those guys as long as they did because the general manager was smart and signed them to longer term contracts before they became big stars. We’ll see how long their current crop of rising stars stays.

How many World Series do you think the Yankees would have won recently if their young talent like Derick Jeter, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera and Andy Petite left for other teams in say 1998? My guess is zero.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

So, when Cleveland obliterated New York in the ALDS, that was because Steinbrenner was delinquent on payments that week? What about their loss to the Marlins (the freakin' Marlins, fer peetsake) in their World Series bout a few years back? Did money cause the Yanks to fold like lawn chairs?

That was 2001, not long after 9/11. Some say it was related to that, yet the Yanks had no problem getting to the Series to start with. My theory is the Marlins just beat 'em.

But you can always pick out the Red Sox fans by the way they marginalize any win the Yankmees have, while over-inflating their meager winnings to seem as if they've conquered the entire planet, solar system, and porn industry too! The 2004 ring ceremony comes to mind.  

Eh? You won the World Series? First time in how many years decades?

George is handing the reins to his sons though, so who knows what the future holds for NY. Boston spends big bucks to 'buy a team', the very thing they've criticized NY for over the decades. With a rivalry record of 26-6 in favor of NY, Boston is going to have to start winning every series pretty soon or we'll never see that record beat in our lifetimes. 

I agree with Steve and whoever else said that keeping your talent is at least as important to the end result as building it. 

[KA1ZGC]

So, when Cleveland obliterated New York in the ALDS, that was because Steinbrenner was delinquent on payments that week? What about their loss to the Marlins (the freakin' Marlins, fer peetsake) in their World Series bout a few years back? Did money cause the Yanks to fold like lawn chairs?

Nice cherry pick and incomplete analysis.

Huh?

Of everything I just wrote, you focus on that one paragraph as an "incomplete analysis" (I wasn't offering an analysis, complete or otherwise), and I'm the one cherry-picking?

You are missing the argument.

Maybe I'm missing your argument, Steve; but I've got my argument down pretty good. I don't recall arguing with you, either, but that's okay, I'm flexible.

It's not that smaller market teams can't compete with big market teams like the Yankmees and Red Sucks, it's that they can't do it over any significant period of time. Let's talk about Cleveland. They had a very good team in the mid and late 90's. But nearly all their players left for big bucks elsewhere. Guys like Albert Belle, Jim Thome, Roberto Alomar, and Manny Ramirez (oh that's right he now plays for the Red Sucks). These guys were at or near the top at their positions. Do you think the Indians may have vied for a few more World Series in the lat 90's and early 2000's if these guys would have stayed? But they left and Cleveland had a relatively poor team until the last few years, a long period of rebuilding.

"But they left"... as though that's all that happened.

Like a wise man once said to me, nice cherry pick.

What did Cleveland get in return for Manny Ramirez? Do you remember? I do. What did Cleveland do with what they got in return for Manny? How much of that is money, and how much of that is management of resources? You make it sound as if money is the only resource in baseball. A player is more than the sum of his paycheck.

Cleveland was lucky to keep those guys as long as they did because the general manager was smart and signed them to longer term contracts before they became big stars.

You're making my point.

How many World Series do you think the Yankees would have won recently if their young talent like Derick Jeter, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera and Andy Petite left for other teams in say 1998? My guess is zero.

It depends on what the Yankees got in return, and more importantly what they did with what they got in return. That's management, not money.

I stand by my initial point: money alone doesn't win championships. It takes talent: on the field, in the dugout, and in the front office. Two out of three on that list isn't enough, no matter how much money you throw at the problem.

--Thom
Kilimanjaro Africa One Zulu Goat Cheese

[KA1ZGC]

But you can always pick out the Red Sox fans by the way they marginalize any win the Yankmees have, while over-inflating their meager winnings to seem as if they've conquered the entire planet, solar system, and porn industry too! The 2004 ring ceremony comes to mind.  

You can always pick out the reflex Sox haters, too. They're the ones that marginalize any win the Red Sox have, like jilted lovers.

Eh? You won the World Series? First time in how many years decades?

...as if by example.

George is handing the reins to his sons though, so who knows what the future holds for NY. Boston spends big bucks to 'buy a team', the very thing they've criticized NY for over the decades. With a rivalry record of 26-6 in favor of NY, Boston is going to have to start winning every series pretty soon or we'll never see that record beat in our lifetimes. 

I sort of hinted at that, Todd, but it doesn't stop people from coming off like the Sox going to the series is something that happens every year, in responses to what I wrote.

Like I said, there seem to be quite a few jilted lovers in this crowd.

I agree with Steve and whoever else said that keeping your talent is at least as important to the end result as building it. 

As do I, but money alone doesn't accomplish that.

--Thom
Kerolene Apparatus One Zooming Golf Cart

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

In an effort to avoid a never ending line-by-line discussion, let me boil it down to this. I think we are basically in agreement. Where we seem to differ is on what management actually means and what it means over the long term.

No Sox hater here. Quite frankly, I like seeing the Sox do well. They are a much more interesting team (a bunch of interesting characters) than most others in baseball.

I stand by my initial point: money alone doesn't win championships. It takes talent: on the field, in the dugout, and in the front office. Two out of three on that list isn't enough, no matter how much money you throw at the problem.

[KA1ZGC]

Since you pulled the post down as I was responding to it, I suppose we'll agree to differ where we do.

Besides, we can have this conversation over the air some day and reach a consensus much, much quicker.

May the best team win.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Whoa big fella. I didn't score anything. I joined in on a discussion (a discussion I had already been involved with) on a discussion forum. That's what we're here for. If you choose to view it as a fight and a win situation, that's your problem. I don't, because I don't have a fight with you. It's baseball we're talking about, not something really important like ham radio.

[W8EJO]

Maybe we'll have to add baseball to the list of banned topics.




The QSO area is for any subject except political and religious posts (and baseball).
 

[WA1GFZ]

what Todd said.
Is there a baseball game tonight....I watched Wired Science on pbs very interesting show.

[Ed KB1HVS]

 Marlins and D-Backs lack a deep loyal fan base. Even after fairly recent WS wins, they cant fill their parks. Red Sox have a "nation". They seem to be everywhere. Camden Yards becomes Fenway South. Interleague  play with San Diego, the place sounds like Fenway in July. Even The Sox farm teams (Portland & Pawtucket)  games get sold out often. I dunno. It's just crazy and i love it. Like anything else in life this too will fade, but Im just glad to see it happening now.  Go Go Sox!

[KA1ZGC]

Here's where it gets interesting. Sox win 13 to 1, scoring 7 in the 5th inning alone.

Most fans would get cocky at this point, but Colorado was playing after 8 days rest. After that kind of pounding, I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Colorado galvanized for a comeback.

I predicted at least six games to decide the series, and even after game one's lopsided outcome, I'm holding out for a long series.

Steve:

We both thought better of it and backed down our last posts for good reason, so let's leave them down. I saw what you wrote, you saw what I wrote, but none of that's in public sight anymore. We can debate it on the air someday and spare these guys.

Ed:

It's hard to tell what brought on the nationwide Sox mania. Some places make sense: Baltimore's close enough to Boston that we can all drive down there and take the place over, Florida is God's Waiting Room, so plenty of New England retirees down there catching pre-season and D-Rays games.

On the other hand, you get a large contingent of Red Sox fans in places that just don't have a logical reason for them. Sure, every city has it's Boston transplants, but not that many. It may well be something as simple as the populace getting tired of the Yankees taking it year after year, and everyone knows the Yankees haven't really been beaten until they lose to the Sox.

If that's really what's behind the growth of Sox Nation, then some other team could do a similar thing if they can get their hands on Joe Torre. The general consensus I get from most baseball fans I talk to is that Joe Torre was mistreated for years, and handed the ultimate disrespect at the end (with which I agree wholeheartedly).

A whole lot of people would love to see Joe Torre come back with another team and stick it to the Steinbrenner Administration. That could be just enough impetus to start selling more seats, which in turn gives the team more capital, which in turn gives the team more signing power, and the ball would slowly start to roll in their favor. A few guys might even take a modest one-year contract to play for Torre in a situation like that.

Time will tell.

It's going to be a great series, and very interesting off-season.

--Thom
Killer Album One Zappa's Greatest Compositions

[W8EJO]

It's hard to tell what brought on the nationwide Sox mania. Some places make sense: Baltimore's close enough to Boston that we can all drive down there and take the place over, Florida is God's Waiting Room, so plenty of New England retirees down there catching pre-season and D-Rays games.

On the other hand, you get a large contingent of Red Sox fans in places that just don't have a logical reason for them. Sure, every city has it's Boston transplants, but not that many. It may well be something as simple as the populace getting tired of the Yankees taking it year after year, and everyone knows the Yankees haven't really been beaten until they lose to the Sox.
--Thom
Killer Album One Zappa's Greatest Compositions

My experience may partially explain this phenomena.
As a die-hard Indians fan since 1954, I can tell you that my second favorite AL team is whoever plays & beats the Yankees. So I was pulling hard for the Red Sox in 2004 when they came from behind & whipped the Bronx boys. I'm sure this sentiment was/is shared by millions of others out in fly over country as the Yankees have always been the most hated franchise. Problem is the Red Sox have adopted the Yankee model & are quickly becoming the new Yankees.

[KA1ZGC]

My experience may partially explain this phenomena.
As a die-hard Indians fan since 1954, I can tell you that my second favorite AL team is whoever plays & beats the Yankees. So I was pulling hard for the Red Sox in 2004 when they came from behind & whipped the Bronx boys. I'm sure this sentiment was/is shared by millions of others out in fly over country as the Yankees have always been the most hated franchise. Problem is the Red Sox have adopted the Yankee model & are quickly becoming the new Yankees.

 

(cough, cough, splutter, cough...)

Bite your tongue! 

The "Yankee model", as I see it, is to spend huge amounts of money on players who bring rock-star name (and advertising) value to the team, and pray they live up to it. The Sox may be spending almost-as-huge amounts of money, but their spending criteria are very different from the Yankees.

The current ownership and management got away from buying up players for the sole purpose of depriving the Yankees of them, but the Yankees still do that. The Yanks' farm system is a wreck, because it's still being managed the way the Red Sox farm system once was.

The Red Sox' previous owners were more focused on competing with George Steinbrenner, their current owners are more focused on owning a winning team. That started in 2004, and carries over to today.

If the Red Sox really are becoming the next Yankees, it's because they've stopped doing things the Yankee Way. They may have almost as much money, but that by itself isn't the reason the Sox are winning.

At any rate, I'm with you insofar as I'll always root for the American League team in the World Series, as long as it isn't the Yankees! 

--Thom
Keep Away One Zorched Ground Conductor

[W8EJO]

(cough, cough, splutter, cough...)

Bite your tongue! 

The "Yankee model", as I see it, is to spend huge amounts of money on players who bring rock-star name (and advertising) value to the team, and pray they live up to it.

You mean like Manny, Beckett, Schilling & (talk about publicity & fanfare) Daisuke.

[KA1ZGC]

The "Yankee model", as I see it, is to spend huge amounts of money on players who bring rock-star name (and advertising) value to the team, and pray they live up to it.

You mean like Manny, Beckett, Schilling & (talk about publicity & fanfare) Daisuke.

Nope... those guys were bought for their talent, and they brought it with them. Unlike the Yankee's headliners, the Sox headliners have lived up to the hype.

I was thinking more along the lines of Roger Clemens. What a waste that was! Don't forget Alex Rodriguez. Sure, the guys a good ball player, but not for the money he's being paid. He was bought for his name, the streak he went on this year was a fluke. I'll never forget him swatting the ball out of our first baseman's hand a few years back. What a fraud. Every team he ever left went on to greatness the following year. Many of the top-dollar vets the Yanks are holding on to are getting too old to play like they played 9 years ago, but they're still there, mostly out of sentiment.

So they've got three expensive guys who can play, but they've got just as many guys dirt-cheap who can play equally well: Ortiz, Lowell, and Ellsbury are at the top of that list.

They are two very different teams. That's why one is playing baseball tonight, and the other is watching baseball tonight.

You're more than welcome to root for the Rockies, if it'll make you feel better.

--Thom
Killer Aircraft One Zeppelin Goes Crash

[KB1OKL]

Well, I'll tell you, the Sox played a great game tonight. They proved they got what it takes to win. Their pitching was excellent, especially the two relievers. The Japanese reliever (you can tell I'm a fair weather fan) was really good. I like that guy. The worst hype or what ever you want to call it is calling the 20 million dollar Japanese pitcher Dice K like he's some kind of Japanese rapper or something. He'd probably be embarrassed if he knew how stupid it sounds. 

[KA1ZGC]

The worst hype or what ever you want to call it is calling the 20 million dollar Japanese pitcher Dice K like he's some kind of Japanese rapper or something. He'd probably be embarrassed if he knew how stupid it sounds. 

His name is "Daisuke Matsuzaka", and the "u" in "Daisuke" is practially silent, so it comes out sounding like "Dice K". Some people write it that way, but that's only because this is America, and people use their rights and liberties as an excuse to be functionally illiterate and ignorant.

The pronunciation is correct, however.

If you think that's hype, you should see how ga-ga the Japanese press goes over him. He's bigger over there than any rapper over here.

--Thom
Kilimanjaro Africa One Zulu Goat Cheese

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

The Sox are definitely emulating the Yankees - spend, spend, spend. Unlilke the Yankees, they haven't won as much. If they win this year, they can claim success. If they win 4 series in 5 years, they can put an NY on their hats!

[W8EJO]

The "Yankee model", as I see it, is to spend huge amounts of money on players who bring rock-star name (and advertising) value to the team, and pray they live up to it.

You mean like Manny, Beckett, Schilling & (talk about publicity & fanfare) Daisuke.

Nope... those guys were bought for their talent, and they brought it with them. Unlike the Yankee's headliners, the Sox headliners have lived up to the hype.

Your last comment could only be made with the advantage of 20-20 hindsight. At the time these players were aquired the Red Sox hoped & prayed they would produce for them as they had produced in the past. As you know there are no guarantees, particularly with pitchers & their various & sundry arm ailments. Daisuke may have been the biggest risk in the history of MLB.

[KA1ZGC]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, guys.

Blaming it all on the money is the easy way out. I expected better than that out of both of you, but trying to discuss this objectively with either of you has been like trying to teach a card trick to a dog.

Talent doesn't enter into it. Management doesn't enter into it. Hell, the umpires don't even enter into it. Nope, just the money, nothing else. Every ill that ever befell baseball is the fault of the Red Sox for finally having some money to spend.

You're right, just because you're you; I'm wrong, just because I'm me.

Satisfied? I hope so, because this conversation is over.

--Thom
Keep Arguing One Zealot's Gold Coin

[k4kyv]

Talent doesn't enter into it. Management doesn't enter into it. Hell, the umpires don't even enter into it.

Not even faith-based baseball?

http://sport.independent.co.uk/general/article3033367.ece

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Thom, it's hard to believe you're looking at this objectively with the comparisons you make. Like, the Yankees didn't lose to the freakin Marlins! (for peetsake), they "folded like lawn chairs". IIRC, the Yankees still beat out every other team in their league that year for he right to play in the championship - including the Red Sox.

Or: the Yankees spend money, the Red Sox "buy Talent". Suddenly the Red Sox are doing pretty much exactly what the Yankees did successfully for decades, yet it's different somehow. Very objective.

Same thing about either team buying players just to keep the other team from getting them. Red Sox, no more. Yankees, still doing it. What about Ruth, Clemens, and so many others? Did the Yankees force their sale somehow? Considering the prices paid these days, I'd sure like to see some proof of that beyond opinion, if you choose to state it so certainly.

'Hey George, let's go spend 50 mil on players we don't really want or need, just so Boston can't have 'em'. 

They are two very different teams. That's why one is playing baseball tonight, and the other is watching baseball tonight

No differently than the many more times the shoe was on the other foot and the Red Sox, for 86 years, were doing the watching.

I was actually relieved, even a bit glad they finally won in 2004. Like any team. the Red Sox have many, many more good fans than idiots like the one who threw his drink in Sheffield's face while he was making a play for the ball a couple years back. I really thought that winning the series would relax everyone.

Then they pulled the stunt with the rings, waiting until they played the Yankees to have the award ceremony - like they were gonna show them a thing or two! But it did more or less fit with the 'wait 'til next year' whinge, and the constant marginalizing of the Yankee's far superior record. Love 'em or hate 'em, you can't deny history. Unless you're a Red Sox fan, perhaps?

So in my experience, the Red Sox 'haters' are more along the lines of folks getting some satisfaction from seeing the loudmouth/crybaby/whiner types get theirs. In reality, the Sox are just another team playing the All-American pastime and trying to come out on top. The difference seems to be, when they do win it's soooo much better than anything any other team has ever done. Pay no attention to the historical record, recent or otherwise.