The AM Forum

Just received the used, but still wrapped and sealed, HPSDR boards today. (High Performance Software Defined Radio) Found a super bargain for only $550 to build the complete HPSDR 160-6M transceiver. Included were the Atlas BackPlane, Pandora cabinet, Ozy computer interface, Janus sound card, Pinnochio extender card, LPU power supply,  Pennelope exciter and Mercury Receiver -     Don't ya just love those names?

Unfortunately, the EDS benchmat and straps I ordered won't be here until Monday... sigh.  If I were crazy (and I am) I could work 24 hours on assy and programming and actually have a working transceiver going with some luck.  But gonna just fondle the boards, in the static-proof plastic, and keep reading for now.

This kit will easily rival the Flex 5000 specs though it will put out only 500mW. I will have to add an SS linear later on, which is already built. The kit uses the same Flex PowerSDR software and will have dual diversity with null steering once I find a second Mercury RX board. The HPSDR is more for experimenters and not by any means a plug and play setup.

The second pic: There are over 700 pads to solder on this board alone. Definately magnifying glass stuff.

Third pic: What I hope the guts will look like next week.

This is my first jump into SDR other than a Softrock and KE1GF down-converter - thanks to Buddly and Huzman for lending those boards to me until I got going with this project. And thanks to Frank/GFZ for his SDR email mentoring.

I'm excited!  Wish me luck, especially ESD luck... :o ;D

T


More INFO?

http://openhpsdr.org/index.html

Looks like a fun project Tom. I'm looking forward to hearing it on the bands!

Back in the last century, I got hired as the second engineer for a 32-track recording studio under construction. I was assigned the detail of making up the patch bay and all its associated connections -- mic connectors in the studio and vocal booths, ouput connectors to the board, etc. By the time it was done, I'd made over 14,000 solder joints. You'll make the 700 just fine, Tom. Get a cup of coffee, put on some Edouard (sp?) Hill for background music and solder away. Good luck with the project.

ldb

Tom,
You can assemble Atlas without an ESD mat or static strap. Notice you will need a USB cable with the right connector at Ozy. You will need some 4-40 hardware to mount Atlas in the chassis. Find yourself a clean 12 volt linear supply. As I told you you can borrow my old power supply set up that plugs into the Atlas connector. You should be on the lookout for a nice microscope.
Soon you won't be able to work without one.
Good luck and soon you will be running the same set up I have been playing with. The only other issue. you need a calibrated generator to calibrate the S meter. It took a long afternoon to solder those connectors in. Make sure thry piont the right way.....

Da, missed the picture of the HP606 in the background.

Thanks for the encouragement guys!  Yeah, some focused work and in a few weeks from now it'll look easy.


Frank, OK on no ESD precautions required for the Atlas BackPlane. I was gonna axe you about that. Then I can start on it tonight.  I can do Pinnochio too, in that case.

I have a good regulated 13.8VDC supply, about 20A, so shud be OK.  I'm missing all the cables that go everywhere. Is there a list of them somewhere?  I figgered I'd wait to the end and hit Rat Shark.

TNX.

T


Anyone want more INFO?

http://openhpsdr.org/index.html

Mercury and Penny have BNC connectors so you will need to make up patch cables to get to a TR relay/amplifier. Look at the USB connector on ozy. It needs to interface with the USB port on your computer. You will need an 1/8 inch audio plug to get audio off Mercury. amplified stereo speakers will get you going. no need to pipe it into the sound card since there is an on board DSP chip. Then look at the mic connections and set up jumpers and a key if you want. I've never interfaced the key to my set up. i think lPU has a connector you need to mate. I don't have LPU and filed it out for a 115 VAC connector. I put a fuse on the back with switch and small neon panel light on the front.

Well, some good progress. Mounted about 45 surface mount parts and soldered about 700 connections on the Atlas backplane board. (Motherboard)    This is probably the hardest and longest assembly of the whole project.

I even tested all the caps, resistors and diodes on the board to be sure they were working in circuit.

Frank, on the D1- D5 LEDs....   They have small green dots marking the cathodes. On your board do D1-D3 cathodes point towards the board edge and D4-D5 point towards the board's center?  It is confusing in their description.


I set up a fan sucking air away to keep the solder smoke at bay. The tweezers worked FB and so did the solder station.  I used a pair of reading glasses and a magnifying lens/lamp together to see. I'm starting to like surface mount assembly.

The solder connections on the board bottom look strange in the picture below due to lighting effects, but are all FB in person.

Onto Pinnochio card extension and the power supply assembly tmw.

T

Tom,

Good luck with your new project.

Word of caution;  if your hair begins to stand up on its ends, you've made a mistake.

As always, hope my posts are helpful.

Fred

Gosh, I am slow... ok, so Tom you found a project that someone had acquired the "stuff" for and decided to bail out? Nice.

I'm reading the website, and I'm confused (nothing new there, eh?). A sound card that doesn't work as a soundcard?? And, what is the receiver? Looking at the block diagram, it's got me confused there too, they show a softrock or an SDR1000?? Say what? I need help on this...

Other than the several thousand dollars worth of man hours to solder the thing together, and the wring out with shaftware to run it, looks tremendous! :D

Otoh, not so sure I want to troubleshoot one of these things... whew!
Only a handful of parts there!!

So what would the thing (hardware) cost normally, not the "bail out" price?

So far i like it more than the SDR commercial product on several levels... And I am totally impressed that there are people out there that can design and bring to fruition boards like these - this is not trivial stuff... makes me feel electronically irrelevant and illiterate. Gee.

                              _-_-bear

Tom,
I'm at work and can't answer your question. Here is a quick test. Connect a 5 volt supply to the 5 volt input and see if the 5 volt led lights.  Each supply bus has a LED. You can check each positive and negative voltage rails if you have a small variable supply. Hope you clocked the connectors correctly...
There is no way to unsolder the connectors with an iron.

I've been watching the HPSDR progress from a distance for quite a while.  I'm getting close to taking the plunge, but the "open" nature of the project also seems to mean that it's not easy figuring out the status of modules and where to get stuff.  For example, I still don't know if TAPR is going to do another run of Mercury boards or where I could get a Mercury-EU board which does seem to be available somewhere from someone.  Googling doesn't seem to help.

Direct sampling definitely seems the way to go, but I have to say that I appreciate the value that Flex Inc. brings toward "productizing" their offering compared to HPSDR.  Just don't know if I have the time to play the experimenter to the extent that seems to be demanded by HPSDR.

Good luck Tom and look forward to hearing about your progress.

Barry

I've been involved with HPSDR since day one. Yes hard to jump in late but the smart guys are very helpful with the new guys.

Caution: Old Buzzard Transmission coming....


Frank - OK on the tests - please let me know what yours looks like when ya get home anyway....   The connectors are correct. I checked the polarity of the connectors many times to be sure... ;D

Bear:  I'm maybe 2 weeks ahead of you when it comes to SDR. I'm struggling and just found out that a FPGA is a field programmable gate array that uses firmware and dithering is used to reduce spurs. Maybe you already knew that!  There's maybe a dozen guys on this site (AMfone) that have a DEEP interest in SDR as shown by a thread about 2 years ago that went on for hundreds of posts. I realized I was left WAY behind and needed to catch up.

The critical HPSDR boards (LSI chips and some parts too small for humans) are all preassembled by automated systems - they are near or equal mil spec quality. The only ones needing assembly are the motherboard and two other simple ones. The boards need firmware updates, if desired, and use the free Flex software. Many of the team (who put this stuff out at cost and basically work for free) are talented hams in industry. They're looking for high performance boards just like you and me.

There are a few kits out there for sale if you look for them. I put out a “wanted” ad on a few sites and scored within 10 minutes. The retail cost is maybe $1200 for a full set of boards.

As the hardware evolves, I expect to unplug an older board, sell it and upgrade. There will be higher bit samplers, better FPGA and so on. The Flex software is always getting CUSTOM HPSDR modified by these guys and gets better all the time. Flex made an agreement to support HPSDR which was a nice gesture. Of course, they benefit greatly from these talented hams too.

BTW, Huzman sent me ads for two Flex 5000’s for sale that are about $2600-$2800. One had two RX’s in it. That’s a bargain for someone looking for plug and play SDR.

I would suggest  you keep reading and go through the threads in their archives. Read the manuals too.  To start, get an Atlas backplane, Ozy comm board and a Mercury receiver. If used, they will be reasonable. The prices new are listed on their site. There is a NEW Mercury run due out soon. I would get a used USA Merc board or new one when available, but not the Euro Mercury cuz of slight differences, minor, but why go thru the trouble. Better resale in US too.

Barry:  I’ve been following your SDR comments via the latest posts you’ve made. There’s many ways to do it, but if you want to stay real flexible, learn a lot and get the latest bells and whistles coming out, then HPSDR is a good way to go. If you are more of an operator, then Flex is better. Until the commercials come out with a knob radio with the equivalent of a computer inside, it’s hard to beat the total flexibility of the separate SDR hardware and external computer at this point in time.

I look forward to the day I can (on the fly) tighten my transmit bandwidth up to 2.4khz when working DX on ssb to be a nice neighbor or slide up the band and do 3.5khz rag chewing or  +-6khz on AM.  Or look at AM activity on the Pan Scope and click to be there with the presets – ready to go in a second.   I might even build a mono-band tube KW linear for each band that gets auto-switched in from the mouse. Some are building big SS linears too.  I also like the null steering of two receivers to take out noise. It doesn’t get better than ant phasing in software to null noise. A noise blanker is a loose band-aid in comparison.

As you can tell, I’m excited about the possibilities and the convenience of clicking and controlling everything with precision. I think that HPSDR gives the biggest bang for the buck and future expand-ability for someone who doesn’t mind working hard for a few months to get over the pain of learning…  I know I’m suffering now but I still force myself to read a little more each night. Some of these HPSDR guys are unreal in their depth of knowledge and experience.  Great role models.

Funny – I saw some posts from one of the HPSDR gurus marveling over Steve/QIX’s class E stuff. They have plans of building a class E PDM linear. I could understand everything he was saying cuz I’d been there before.  That was the only time I felt SMUG on that site…   Hope you guys join in and we can all have some fun comparing notes.

T

OK Tom,
Fabio and who's the other guy/transmitter there?? will have some company with your HPSDR.
Don't fondle the bags too much. I bet they're empty now and you're half way done.


Bear, it was probably the surface mount stuff that scared the other owner away. K7DYY's Class D 'kit' and SoftRock I.F. board had me swaying the white flag too.
You need good eyes and steady hands, the soldering tools, and maybe even a video system with macro-focus to see what yer doin' there. Some of that technology just uses a type of solder that you dab onto the PC traces with the components in place and put the work into a toaster oven. Latest tricks seen in QST last month for SMT.

It's amazing and really nice that " THIS FORUM" has embraced the newer technology coming into our hands and capable of challenging our minds with computer-age goodies. And we still use the Ancient Modulation mode. Nothing wrong with the tube technology. I still have stuff around and my R390A. I had broadcast transmitters with tubes and still enjoy the glow of hard working pubes blushing in their sockets.

Fred

I've directed a number of HPSDR guys to QIX site. They want to build an eer amp

Yep time has come to bite the SMT bullet - wide field stereo microscope on a boom, hot air rework station... damn no toaster ovens for this guy! That just seems wrong!?!?  :o Other wierd and micromini stuff, tiny teeny stuff. Oooops! that powdery looking stuff that was about 1,000 resistors... crud! I stepped on them!

Where is Tom Swift Jr. when I need him???


                           _-_-bear

Bear, I sent ya a PM with the ad ideas.

The thang wid  HPSDR is we need to cobble a rig together any way we can get it in the beginning. They don't keep making ALL boards once a new one is coming out. But once we get online and running, the new offerings are easy to get cuz they make 100's of boards. It's like jumping on a moving merry-go-round.   It's tough to get on, but once on, go for the ride and grab the brass rings.


I'll bet when the new Hermes transceiver comes out in a few months there will be plenty of used kits like I just found. But until then the Mercury, Penelope and Ozy boards will need seeking out. I'm gonna stick with separate TX and RX boards anyway.

Frank, I see your new Metis board (computer interface) is ready to be shipped real soon based on a post today.

T

Tom,
I was just looking in my Atlas with a bright light and I can't see the registration marks on the LEDs. You can ohm out a LED just like any other diode to check polarity. I just sent you a copy of the extender  manual and schematic.
Yes, I just read the post on the new interface board. The Check should be at TAPR by now.

Looks like I missed the boat on this.

I bought the Atlas when the whole project started up and I guess I fell asleep, since I went back and looked at the TAPR order site and, while a number of project are still available to order from, the receiver (Mercury) and the transmitter (Penelope), and the filters (Alex) seem to be now unavailable.

Do these boards come available ever (used, unused, otherwise)?  I ask because I could buy the kits that are available now and wait if the missing boards do come available on occasion.  Has the experience of this HPSDR project been worth it to those here who have participated enough to warrant the anticipated wait/hassle?

Have I missed the boat?

David,

There's another run of Mercury receiver boards to be produced from TAPR in the near future. Go on their site and you will find an "indication of interest" page or something like that to sign up.  I need a second one myself.  You can sometimes find them used and if hard up, there are Euro-Mercurys available from a German named Gerd. He can be found on the site.   He also has Penelope TX boards too, all available for shipment, but at full price.  You will need an OZY computer interface or better yet, the new replacement called Metris is being shipped soon.

No, you have NOT missed the boat. In fact you are very early. Things are changing so fast now that it's become a hotbed of amateur innovation. We will look back 5-10 years from now and it will look like the Apple II era in someone's garage... ;D  Heck, the big boys haven't jumped in both feet yet and Flex, a relatively small company, is dominating.  SDR has a long way to go and will eventually outperform conventional radios by a wide margin. Just a matter of time.

Frank, I figgered out the Pinnochio board, got it built and finishing up the LPU PS board now. That PS board was a lot of work too.  I'll look at the diodes tmw as you suggested. Tnx.

T

Dave,
The new interface board starts shipping in a couple weekd to replace OZY with an Ethrnet interface. TAPR is considering another production run for Mercury. There is a guy in Germany making boards.
The hermes 1/2 watt transceiver is supposed to come out this year.
The Alex filter module never shipped. There must be some issues with the design. The price of relays has driven the price kind of high for what it does.
Just join HPSDR and watch the posts.

We waited for years to get the first Mercury boards. It had a numer of software bugs at first but everyone did testing and the smart guys fixed the code. I think there was around six revisions then it has been stable for a long time. The dual mercury has gone through a number of revision but I read it works pretty well now. I would like to pick up a second one and a second Atlas for my test set up. There are plans for a spectrum analyzer and VNA.

Are the spectrum analyzer plans all software?  What is the differnce between the existing pan adapter and the planned spectrum analyzer in operation?

Well, tonight I finished the Pinnochio extender board and the LPU power supply.  I decided not to use those homo Molex connectors and instead just hardwire the wires in. I just hate those intermittent things, esp when I make them myself... :-0

BTW, where do I get those crazy looking red/black plugs? What are they called? I can see matching up all these sockets on the boards is going to be a job in itself.  (they didn't includes mates)


So, by right I can actually mount the backplane into Pandora's box and start popping in the boards, but I'll wait for the ESD stuff to get here before I open those ESD-prone packages. I can test the PS board and read some more.

Gee, aren't these beautiful boards? Super high quality.  Looks like many have multi-layered tracks inside - is this true?

T

The red and black connectors are Anderson Power Poles. They come in a number of sizes, but 15 and 30 amp are the most commonly used for ham stuff. Pretty handy connectors, I converted to them about 5 years ago. I usually but my from Powerwerx. http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/

I've never seen them at radio shack or any local outlets. They are becoming more common at hamfests, bagged in 10 or 25 piece kits.

That is a lot of radio for the money. If it's only 700 solder joints, it would be well worth it! I assume all the plug in boards parts are already mounted? Otherwise it could really take a month or more to build and all the SMT work could literally become a pain in the neck from the working position. When you get a round tiut on the RF power amps, will you post that info as well?

Gee Tom,
Thinking ahead you could be operational by the AM TX thing Steve is setting up. We could do a HPSDR to HPSDR QSO. You will need  a way to attenuate Penny output to drive erb. Cutting back on drive at the control panel will hurt IMD because less D/A bits are used. I use a 10 dB attenuator pad. You could use a couple 100 ohm resistors and a 1 K pot. Best to run wide open and attenuate the output. Erb wants 24 volts for the first two stages and you can run the final on 24 if power is reduced to 100 watts pep. Hook one of those switchers and you could do 300 watts. Then your erb will need a bigger heat sink.
I would power up Atlas before you install any boards and check for voltages.
At first power up.
Go into set up page and select clock source. Penney or Mercury. Check the manual I  forgot which one is better (External is best once you get the reference module)
Go through the other set up instructions for sample rates etc and follow the instructions. I usually run 96K. I get data drop outs at 192 but it works.
I think it is a computer issue with USB. 

Frank, that transceiver is sounding pretty interesting to me.  You know me and my love of small radios (it's the evil QRPer in me!   ;D). 

I remember first reading about this building block style SDR stuff last year and in 2009, but the sporadic availability of kits (no tools here to scratch build - such is apartment life) has been a turn off for me.  Oh well.

Once you go through the Power SDR stuff the rig should run with the software shipped with the boards but it will be a lot better when the latest firmware is downloaded into Mercury. There is one or 2 Penny upgrades but more related to interface issues on Atlas.
Once you get up and running the S meter and display will be going crazy. This is normal. Just go to the PSDR calibration page. Here you input your signal generator into mercury and tell the PSDR the Frequency and generator output level and press calibrate. I usually do this at 10 MHz. It takes about 20 seconds to calibrate and you are done.
You will need to do calibration after firmware upgrades.
I'm not sure if TAPR ships all the board jumpers with the modules. These are the same jumpers unes in computer boards so you can yank them from dead computer boards if you need more.

OK on the intial steps, Frank.  Should be straight forward if I take it one board at a time. Still need to figure out all the wiring and plugs yet.  

Patrick - yes, there are only three or four simpler boards that need assembly and you can see them pictured here as I built them. Not too bad. The other complex boards are already built and tested when they arrive - built by automated equipment. They use SMT that is too small for humans to do. The LSI chips with the tiny spacing between leads wud be beyond most human hand capabilities.  Yes, I'll post some pics of my SS linears. They are basically an ErbTech medical SS linear amp board and the more common CCI kit using MRF-150's. I plan to run these in class A at whatever power level they will permit, depending on heat sinking and fans, etc. A 75w super clean output (-50db 3rd IMD) is my goal to drive  a tube amp that is around -45db 3rd now.  If I can get at LEAST  -40db ip3 (IMD) at 1500w output overall, I will be vely happy.

As I was soldering some SMT parts last night I wondered why they didn't have this whole transceiver on a chip yet?   ;D   Someday they will, just like the cell phones. There just isn't enuff demand to make it worthwhile, I guess, and things are changing too rapidly to commit to one big chip at this point, perhaps.

T

Tom,
Take a look at Hermes. I bet 1/3 the parts count of today's set up. You can't do diversity though. I got in the mid 30s with erb on the stock heat sink but it got very hot in about 30 seconds. I think the final was biased at 3 amps, driver at 2 and the input around 1A. I put a slab of 1/4 inch copper under my erb so I could bias it higher. The new heat sink has 750 square inches of surface area.  I have not done any testing for IMD with the bigger heat sink yet. I think the CCI will need a different transformer design to make it better. I bet it will be ok on say 20 m but on 80 the cores saturate.
The DC shunt choke is too small compared to the ERB at 1/2 the power.
I think Stu told us about some National Instruments cards that could be pressed into SDR service. A rig on a chip is a tall order for HPSDR.

I'll have to look into that National linear amplifier chip that Stu mentioned. Do you have the link or part number?  The Erb and CCI amps sure seem like a lot of work for only 75w class A.

Today gots the power supply tested and hooked it up to the Atlas backplane. Notice the second pic below shows both the 12V and 5v LEDs on!    I decided to mount the PS away from the other boards to keep noise lower, thus the cable instead of a piggyback mount.

It may not look like much so far, but with my novice-SMT skills and the technical manuals assuming a sophisticated builder, I'm vely happy to get to this point without crapouts... ;D

So, all I need is the ESD stuff to arrive and I can start plugging in boards to test and program, etc.  The fun stuff is next once I find the proper inter-cables and plugs.

T

Tom,
You can plug LPU directly into Atlas there is no issue. Check the link I sent you I think OZY needs -12 volts from LPU but there needs to be a jumper added to turn -12 on.. Look at the tables I thought Ozy needs 1 ma of -12V.
LPU is set up to plug directly into Atlas so the power input connector sticks out the back of the chassis hole for the power plug. Notice the picture I sent you where I changed it to a 115VAC interface. LPU will get you up and running for now just keep an eye onthe heat sink temperature. I think some guys are running fans to keep it cool. The chassis is set up for a fan but my choice was to build in a bigger supply.
I never bought LPU because you can pick up power modules on ebay for the same price and I just wired them in with a switch on the front panel.

OK, Frank -

I got the -12V switcher running and hooked it up. Measures out OK into the Atlas.

A few problems, but solved:   The  LPU board output pins are not the same as the schematic on their website. Maybe 1/3 are incorrect on the board.  I ohmed them out as if it was a homebrew project.

As you said, the -12V switcher supply alone has spikes of about 20mV on the DC. After I hooked it to the Atlas the filter caps brought this down to about 2mV.  But it seems to contaminate the +12 and 5V slightly. Still, this is down about to a tiny .016% if I calculate correctly.    The other supplies were very clean before the switcher was added.

I can see why you chose analog for yours. Later I'll just add on an analog  -12V puck when I get situated.  Amazing that such a "high performance" system wud put in that -12V switcher, but I see the warnings all over the site.  Funny.   I wonder how much RX noise floor or degraded IMD on TX it wud make, if anything to measure?  The Ozy board is common to everything in there.

T

Tom the spectrum analyzer project is future and plans to go up to 1 GHz or even higher. Mercury as it stands is a great spectrum analyzer today good to 6 meters. Your scan width is just limited right now but you can find things like second harmonics and their level since it is calibrated. You just have to tune to say the second harmonic to measure it.  IMD you can get right off the display as it is today.
Just got a message from TAPR I'm in on the first batch of Metis cards.

Frank, I'm watching to see what improvements your Metis board does over the Ozy before I order one. You be a good guinea pig. ;D

Ready to plug in some boards -  Back View:

The Atlas backplane is mounted with the LPU power supply module.  There is a cut-out for a muffin fan and lots of holes for jacks and switches.

I'm ready to plug in the first board to add in the latest firmware and test it. Awaiting the ESD strap and bench mat next week.  There's even some room for another module, like maybe a small class A linear amp to bring it up to 15 watts or so.

T

I was waving my arms at the back of the bus when the HPSDR guys wanted to use computer power supplies to power this stuff. They quickly learned it trasned mercury. The noise floor of mercury with the RF amp turned on is close to -140 dBM.  You will be OK for a while but in time that LPU needs to go. It will not power Metis at full speed.
Maybe I'll put my HPSDR on the air today.

Been doing some serious reading in prep for next week.

Check this out. CW skimmer is a software routine that will read CW and automatically display horizontal dits and dahs of the QSOs  -  and display the QSO callsign.  Up to 700 stations at once .. :o   It will also do auto-spots to the DX clusters.   All this can be YOURS with HPSDR!    ::)

http://www.dxatlas.com/CwSkimmer/



This next link helps to understand many of the details and overall view of HPSDR stuff.  Especially look at the "HPSDR Radio Setup Examples" about half way down the page. These are write ups with pictures of some guys cramming both a computer and HPSDR transceiver into a computer case.   Great stuff.

http://openhpsdr.org/wiki/index.php?title=HPSDRwiki:Community_Portal


T

I fired up the rig yesterday to keep you motivated. You are getting real close to a working rig.

Frank,

Your HPSDR sounded excellent on AM. Best sounding lashup you have there by far.  The ssb should sound FB now that you've corrected the various levels.   Most SDR guys have initial level problems and is probably the #1 reason why sometimes SDR gets a rep for sounding poor. Once set, the SDR rigs will sound flawless.

Well, today I finished the HPSDR computer software downloads including the SVN for updates. Works FB.  I have a PowerSDR/Penny screen working FB and all configured to accept the HPSDR boards.

I see that the software already has a two-tone generator AND a belcher pulse in the PowerSDR software. That is cool. Also, they have a 10-band EQ for both TX and RX, along with processing. I'll have to see how my outboard audio boxes compare. Maybe I'll end up using the outboard boxes only for the class E  and Fabio/4X1 rigs.

I did have a problem trying to load SVN 64 bit. It said my processor did not support it. So I downloaded 32 bit SVN and it ran OK.  I see another choice for 64 bit USB software. Will this lack of 64 bit capability haunt me later?

Lastly, I'm reading about the firmware updates. I plan to update all boards as soon as the boards are installed.

BTW, I have the setup checks toggled to say I already have Ozy,  Mercury and Penny installed. Is this OK if I have just Ozy  and then Mercury in there for initial testing or do I need to indicate exactly what is in there as I add the boards - ie will I confuse the software?

T

** Update: The UPS guy just showed up with the ESD benchmat and strap.  If I only had the proper cabling, I could have this sucker running today.

Hey TOM
(Check this out. CW skimmer is a software routine that will read CW and automatically display horizontal dits and dahs of the QSOs  -  and display the QSO callsign.  Up to 700 stations at once .. Shocked   It will also do auto-spots to the DX clusters.   All this can be YOURS with HPSDR!    Roll Eyes

http://www.dxatlas.com/CwSkimmer/)

Shoot man,

My Ham Radio Deeelux MSK31 can show me a bunch of msk31 signals and the QSO taking place And their call in a 'super browser' screen app

Yeah Fred, you be SDR-Man already. Anythang is possible!   ;D

(How about voice recognition software labeling who's talking where?)

Alex (VE3NEA) has written some brilliant software. I love his free Voice Shaper software that does real-time audio signal processing.

Looks like you're having a lot of fun with the project Tom. Should be great fun to see that signal come up on the bands!

Rob

I warned you to get a USB cable last week. Kaplan in Manchester if you can't get it at radio slock. Just load Ozy and Mercury for starters. Also select clock source as Mercury. Start at 96000 sample rate.

Frank, I figgered I'd take it slow and see what cables I needed as I pulled the boards out of the ESD wrap. I'm reading that some of the cables shud be very short due to RF getting into the computer.  Maybe I shud buy some type 73 ferrite snap ons. I have type 43's , but probably not high perm enuff.

I have to take a look at that VE3 software, Rob. You are WAY ahead of me. But it's not as difficult as I thought to pull this off.


*** Here's the new ESD bench set up.  Pictured in #1 is 172K ohms resistance from the mat to hard ground. Pic #2 is the 1.01 meg resistance from the wrist strap to hard ground.

I checked all the ground continuity  to be sure the test gear, soldering iron, station ground and AC ground were all tied together.   All set for action now.  (All good ESD boys go to heaven)   ;D

T

Wow, not a single burn mark. Now all you need is a nice microscope.
Remember the chassis is sitting on rubber feet so run a JS between chassis and ground. I have about 6 foot long USB cable with a bead snapped on up near the ozy connector. I don't have anything on any of the audio or coax cables. This could become an issue in QRO land. I have been fine at 100 watts so far. Erb is not shielded and about 3 feet away.

Hi Tom,

That has been available for quite awhile.  It is without a doubt very cool, but seems like it is taking the operator and operating skill out of the loop.  Might as well just have computers talking to computers!

73, Jack, W9GT

Regarding the 32 vs 64 bit question Tom yes you would have to have a processor that is up to the task but you would also have to have a 64 bit version of Windows OS installed. Not many (if any) computers come with that. The 64 bit os would probably be a good choice for your project but most of the third party software on the market for Windows isn't made for 64 bit machines. Things like CAD and video editing need 64 bit.

Have a close look at what is running in the background on the computer you are going to use after an initial boot. Things like email, browsers and anti virus software can use up a lot of processor time and cause hiccups while your trying to operate.

Good Luck 

McAfee is bad news for power SDR. I'm running a dual dual core 2.4 GHz and still got dropouts.  I don't put the machine on the net. It was a pita stripping McAfee out of the machine. Tom my machine was a server in its other life but I think I am running 32 bit also.  I seem to remember reading that it would support 64 bit operation. Most of the time it only needs about 7 % total horsepower. I think I changed it to a high priority task though.

Frank, I have basically the same computer you do, 2.4 ghz and dual core.  We'll see.  Getting closer but having a few snags with the Alteris? firmware update software. I click on the exe. icon and just see a quick screen flash of text and then its gone.  Is that normal if I don't have OZY hooked up yet? Still have to find a USB cable or sort it all out and visit RS between snow today and Wed. (Another N'Easter coming)

Jack,  I've seen CW skimmer around for a few years, but never checked it out.  Yes, those automated set-ups must be "fun".  ::)   I don't even use a voice keyer, never mind all that other stuff.

Taking it slow so not to make mistakes. The last thang I need is blown boards that have to go back to Gerd in Germany for repair.

T

Tom, It's another can of digital worms. Analog is so easy to get along with.

About 64-bits. I wouldn't worry. My wife HAD a very nice fast as sczhit ACER laptop with Win 7 Premium 64-bit ($400 Wally world) and it was nice. I tried to load older software into it and it would not load coz it was 32-bit. She didn't like the color so we sold it on eBay. She likes her pink notebook, little screen, slow Toshiba................womens
The 'Puter had a compatibility button to emulate 32-bit,  I don't think you will get in a bind for 64-bit in our SDR whirl. Maybe some of the other digital types hiding  around here will comment.

Fred

I'm no expert, just starting to dabble in windoze 7 (after being bitten by DOS4 and Millenium, I always wait a year or three for a new Microsoft OS to prove out before adopting it), but from my reading, the 'Pro' versions that have the windows XP compatibility mode really don't do what you want. Apparently they launch a virtual OS window, and your hardware has to support virtualization, and it ends up not being terribly compatible anyway. Here's one article I read that talked about it. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1051975/xp-mode-windows-scam


I am just setting up a new shack computer, a Shuttle XS35 and I had the choice of installing Windows 7 32 or 64 bit and I chose 32 bit after doing some research because I wanted maximum compatibility with existing ham software. For specific needs, like PowerSDR, it might  make sense to install the 64 bit version, but from what I can tell, that will cause issues with some of the popular ham software that is in common use (for instances, UIView32, where the author went SK).

YMMV, probably will.  ;D  I'd like to learn more about the whole issue.

Tom, I'm running a dual, dual core so 4 processors. You should be fine though. Sorry I just don't remember the ozy download to allow firmware updates. That was at least two years ago. Maybe you do need the usb cable connected??? I seem to remember it was pretty easy. I think the code is stored in the ozy prom. The ozy prom loads firmware into the FPGA on power up. Make sure the jumpers are right on ozy. You may need to do something with the JTAG.

OK on the 32 bits guys. Guess I'm all set and have a reasonable machine.

Frank, I found a USB cable here, so gonna start mounting jacks on the cabinet and maybe fire up OZY later today.

T

good luck!
I hope you have some BNC cables and amplified computer speakers kicking around.

Tonight I wired most of the inside infrastructure.  This is the homebrew part of the construction phase. I installed the PTT, 13V IN, T/R antenna relays, LED ON, power switch, fuse and lots of 1/4" RCA jacks for future expansion.  I also cobbed on real man's SO-239 antenna connectors instead of those homo BNC's.

I figgered it would be best to do all this drilling and wiring before I added any boards... :o  

Maybe tmw I'll try sticking in Ozy, the communications interface board to the computer. If that works, then the Mercury RX is next followed by Penny, the exciter.  Still need to make some connections to the boards themselves, of course.

** I'm trying to show lots of detail in this project's construction for those interested in doing it themselves. I hope this is inspiring someone else to give it a try too. Misery likes company, you know.

T

Notice on pic #1 where the 12V red power lead clips on. I added a series diode there to be sure I NEVER reverse polarity. It wud be a crime to see the rig go up in smoke by a space-out.

Oh oh oh. Come  here Dick. See the pretty LED light. Oh oh oh. Jane likes the pretty light.

DANGER TOM I don't think you can drive a T/R relay directly from HPSDR.
IXDD414 may work with maybe a pull up resistor on the input. Look at the current rating of the output open collector drivers. Also remember to put a diode across the coil to absorb transient at turn off. I plan to build a small board with opto couplers and high current drivers to control T/R and output relay selection when i build my power amplifier enclosure. I don't want high power RF in with the HPSDR boards.

OK, Frank -

Well, the relay control-out rating spec said 60V at 100ma, open collector, IIRC. The relay is not installed yet. I'll have to look it up. I was going to drive a tiny  12V relay with it and then interface that with the outside world with bigger relays.    Open colector means I can have 12V on the relay and the collector will sink it to ground, right?   I will use the diode across the relay coil, of course.

I also want to use an isolation relay to key the PTT input to Penny too, so I will never make interfacing mistakes.

BTW, the docs say the PTT lock problem was corrected, but I will load new firmware anyway before I proceed, to be sure.

T

Very good Tom, that will work.
PTT problem was fixed in the first firmware upgrade to Penny I think. It could have been in power SDR, don't remember now. If you plug it in and it comes up in TX that is the issue. I think it comes up in TX but at zero output so you lose just RX. Sounds like you are getting very close. 

http://openhpsdr.org/wiki/images/4/4c/Penelope_manual_v_1-2.pdf
(1/2 way down page is open collector keying info)


No problem with Penny output keying inductive loads.  

Pin 13 of the 25 pin Penny output connector is for keying amplifiers. Rated at 100ma / 60V.   I will use a 12V tiny buffer  relay there just to be sure.   Already has the reverse diode installed according to manual.

Also, Pin 1 is the PTT input - just needs a closure.    

Optical buffering looks to be overkill, no?


* Actually I thought the PTT problem  WAS in PowerSDR and it required a statement in bootup to work around, but corrected for at least a year now. At least that's what I see in the threads. The site has a lot of dead info that takes a while to get updated. But that's how it is when run by engrs who are more concerned with board performance. There's no marketing or bean counters to pay .... :-)

T

Tom,
Don't rely on the board diodes for protection. At the relay is the best option.
If you rely on the board diode the coil transient is absorbed by the Penny VCC buss and internal bypoass caps. This means every time you release a relay the Penny VCC buss will transient upwards to absorb the pulse to protect the driver chip. Best to keep the transient current loop closer to the relay.
Penny 1.2 manual is the latest release so it should have the accurate poop on the stuck T/R and firmware configuration.

OK. Will add diodes to all the relays. Can never be TOO safe... :-)

MORE snow today.

T

Yup and you are about an hour away from watching snow static on HPSDR spectrum display. Fire up Mercury and play with it as you wire Penny interfaces.

Tom,
I don't know how much DC current you're talking here but, a quick and simple polarity guard is a bridge rectifier on the input.
Connect your load to the DC output leads of the bridge as usual and put your DC power into the AC input of the bridge.
Either way you connect it the bridge steers the polarity to where it outta be.
After all, that's what happens with AC.

Series diode is more than enough in this application. That is a reason I built the supply inside.

I'm sure it is, Frank, but in the event of a mistake you hafta re-connect.
With the bridge it'll work every time!  ;D

The bridge sounds like a cool way to go, especially if it was mobile with a lot of plugging.

Question:  I see there is a left and right channel audio AND line output for each receiver.  Since the receiver is mono, why stereo/ two outputs?

The reason I axe is I ultimately want to have two receivers in diversity  - one receiver in each ear.  Is each L/R  channel the same signal?   Not sure if I need to have a stereo output plug for each RX or not.  In other words, I want to have a mono from each receiver to go into stereo headphones.

T

I don't remember because I just used stereo speakers. I'll figure it out when i add the power amp and klh speaker. Or you will find out and tell me.
Turn the thing on and go for it.

Ya, fire that motha up!!

(opps, don't say fire!)

uncap the headers and roll her up

Not so fast... ;D

I decided to go ahead complete the wiring for the unit and the station interfacing before I fire anything up.  As far as I can tell, everything is now wired and ready to plug into the station.  With just two switch turns I can go from the FT-1000D to the HPSDR.

Added a buffer keying relay going to the exciter and a buffer relay from the exciter that goes to the bigger relays in the station. So, there is good isolation for the board.  

Also added stereo 1/4 jacks for the line outputs and headphones for two receivers. Also labeled everything.  Actually I'm trying to postpone the inevitable...   maybe tmw.


* Just to be clear, all of the external wiring, connectors and switches, etc, are not part of the kit and need to be homebrewed.  Just the boards are supplied with the kit.

T

Notice in pic #3 the station interface - it's begging to be plugged in!

Tom,
The HPSDR board connectors stick out the back. It looks like your cables are a bit short. You could rotate Alex 180 degrees if the mounting holes line up and keep everything internal to the box. I considered flipping it around but the +/- 12 volt Lamda power supply module was too big anl only left 1/2 inch behind the boards.
Remember Tom that LPU is a bit skroteless so keep an eye on the heat. Run all the relays off 13.8 not 12 volts from the regulator.
BTW Bud a reverse diode across 12 volts would kill the fuse and not add a 1 volt drop if a bridge was used. The 12 volt regulator may have problems if the 13.8 is low.

Yes, it looks like the Atlas board is mounted 180 degrees backwards. That's what I get for not plugging in the boards yet. No problem - I'll spin it around and re-route the cables. There's enuff cable length.

I do have the relays off the incoming 13.8 V.

BTW, I need to PROVE that the Atlas board sockets are oriented properly before I plug any boards in. It is not clear which end of the socket is #1 pin.  Could you tell me a way to positively tell if I have them soldered in right?  Like maybe, " looking from the back of the cabinet with the Ozy plugged in, the 3rd pin on the right side is 12V - or something like that?   I will have the board socket 180 degree corrected.

T

You mean you didn't try one board before you soldered all those connections?
Looking at the back of the chassis with the power connector on the left (just like the picture you sent yesterday)  the board connectors should face out the back hole.. Man you live on the edge. I soldered 2 pins on one connector and tried a board to be sure. if you got it backwards throw atlas in the trash and start again. The boards only plug in one way and if you get it backwards and power up the boards throw everything in the trash.
Looking at the back of my chassis with the connectors facing out the power connector is on the left side.

That's almost funny.  Looks like I'm screwed... :o

I checked and see that the Atlas board can be mounted only ONE way in the chassis. Spin it 180 and it will not line up. I first thought the Atlas board could be  mounted anywhere we chose to, so the board sockets facing out the back didn't mean anything to me.  Some guys don't even use a Pandora cabinet, so how would they know this?

When I initially checked the female sockets to the board print pattern, it was clear the way the sockets went in. Even the description said to mount them in line with the indent. Anyway, that turns out to be 180 backwards.  Yep, looks like I will have to order a new Atlas board. At least they have them in stock.

Strange, but I was fully aware of this potential problem and rechecked it many times using the manual's method above....sigh.

So, a board HAS to be plugged in to see the proper socket orientation.. that's kinda JS.

T

You might be able to grind the nubs off the end of the connectors and get them to mate backwards. Good thing I spotted your problem. I'll send you the assembly instructions again and I bet you quickly find the problem. When I built my board I soldered in 2 pins and tried a board just to be sure. Don'y bother trying to desolder the connectors. You might get lucky if you file the end registration nubs and get the boards to mate. Then you could save the board. I just checked my Atlas  nad the nubs face away from the power connector.

Yep, and mine face TOWARDS the power connector.   I have the manual and don't see that stated. O'well.

I just ordered another Atlas. $39 shot to hell.

So if I file the nubs off, the board can be used as-is, spun 180, huh?  Maybe I shud do that and just keep the new Atlas for future expansion.  As long as all boards face their socket towards the opening, I'm OK when plugging in. I could add on a red sticker to insure they go in right.

This is what the astronauts wud do if stuck out in space, right?

T

If you can get the connectors to mate backwards by taking off the registration nubs you are in business. I never tried it with a Euro VME connector backwards. When I built my board I just installed one connector with a couple solder connections then mated one board just to be sure.
My Racal RA6830 has the same connectors so I'm used to them. Also we use them at work.
Consider yourself hazed by the euro standard.

Success!

I took out the Dremel tool and filed off just the end nubs and left the center ones there for alignment. Works like a charm. The board slides in 180 degrees out now. Can't notice the difference.

This will be a non-event, cuz I'll make some fail-safes to be sure the boards do not get plugged in wrong.

I'll cancel that Atlas order. I really didn't want to spend another 4 hours soldering those 700 connections... ;D

You da man!

T

Looks like all HPSDR boards (current boards) will be back in production and sales will be handled by a new company.

This is good news for guys just jumping in.

T


See post today,  below:

-----------


***** High Performance Software Defined Radio Discussion List *****

Hi all,

Just so you don't think that we forgot about new production, we will be kicking off the new web page within two weeks.

Initial descriptions of the boards we will offer (Mercury, Pennylane and Magister) will be up by then, and the ordering pages will follow shortly. Those of you that signed up on the show of interest page will receive a direct e-mail message announcement.

Note that while the boards will be manufactured by the same manufacturer as the first production runs, they will not be sold by TAPR but by the new company.

The new company will be devoted to web sales of SDR and related hardware. HPSDR boards will be our first boards.

Dan and I will, of course, continue to support TAPR and HPSDR with the first production run of new boards. (We are getting ready for the marathon Metis testing sessions right now! :-)  The new web sales page will be for the "mature" products that TAPR has sold out of, to continue to make these boards available.

73,
Scotty WA2DFI
Dan, N4XWE

Frank -

On the PTT control of the overall HPSDR transceiver...

So far I am keying Penny at the Pin 1 of the 25 pin connector and will use its pin 13 as the output PTT for the station.  Do I also need to manually/relay mute Mercury too or is this automatically taken care of thru software, ect?.  How about the TX monitor - is this controlled in software so no need for pots and mixing outboard into the line/headphone outputs to hear one's transmission?

I also see a PTT input on Ozy too. Is that redundant once Penny is keyed up?


I'm hoping all I need to do is key up Penny and everything else mentioned above is controlled in software.  No RX audio feedback, etc.  

I also wonder how the final linear gets spec monitored on Mercury during transmit. Does some RF need to be sampled into Mercury via its antenna?

T

Tom,
Ozy PTT was for interface to SDR1000 to eliminate the parallel cable between SDR1000 and computer. HPSDR started life as a best possible sound card interface for the Flex. Ozy / Janus is better than any sound card. We all used Softrocks or in my case homebrew tayloe detectors until Mercury was done a couple years later. I have not used any of these discrete interfaces yet. I want to use opto couplers to avoid any ground loops to the fianal amplifier. I have some nice RF relays from laPointe days to select filters. They look to be good for around 500 watts.
When I select TX manually with the mouse the Mercury audio is muted and TX spectrum display comes up. Take a look at the power SDR set up pages. You might need to select PTT source Penny or Ozy. I wish I had better software skills so I could have controlled my tunable preselector from that ozy connector. I have a cool Cubic preselector that tunes in 10 KHz steps.
I also have a nice collins preselector I got from Bob Stone years ago with a 4 section variable cap and a bunch of vacuum relays that could be pressed into service

OK, so you're keying the system with a mouse and I'm keying it with a standard hand switch that goes to pin 1 of Mercury.  Hopefully it will do the same thing and mute the RX in software too.

When in transmit and the spec anayzer goes on, you are seeing 500mw RF, not the final amp, of course.  The Flex guy told me I'd have to sample RF from the amp and feed it into the Merc.   I left an extra SO-239 on the back for a small whip antenna sampler or standard capacitive sampler off the RF 50 ohms line for that prurpose.

I can see there will be some JSing needed to get the HPSDR doing what the FT-1000D does for station functions. Things like monitor, dual RX's, muting, monitoring spec of TX, etc, will take time to optimize.

Well, after that slight delay, I'm ready to proceed forward again without any smoked boards to boot..


T

Today I gots the newve to plug in the boards and turn on the power.  One by one all boards came up and were recognized by the computer. The software drivers were loaded and all seemed FB.

However, then the computer screen said that the boards needed up-to-date firmware flashed into the FPGA's. (Field Programable Gate Arrays)   It says I need >= the xx versions now in there.   I gots to figure out how to do that.  Frank, there's a way to show what version each board contains, right?

I downloaded the very latest PowerSDR software, so it probably needs the latest firmware to work with.. duh.

The LEDS are flashing on all three boards, so all looks potentially good. If something didn't work, it wud be beyond my capabilities to fix without mucho trouble, so I'm vely happy at this point. Just have to do some reading on firmware updates.  They have to be done periodically anyway, if ya want to keep up with the latest bells and whistles. Evidently this used kit had older firmware from original.

We're getting there. Not bad for a tube hack.

T

Tom,
I'm going to try and send you a couple emails adding up to 25Meg that has the data you need to load latest firmware. Power SDR ver 19.3 looks like a good version. You need to get set up to do SVN downloads when new software gets released. This stuff I'm sending you has nothing to do with diversity but should get you going. look at the read me file for instructions.
You can download the diversity stuff later but I'm not sure there is ozy updates in it. Dump all the files in a folder and follow the instructions.
I have not updated any of my firmware in a while because the updates were not stuff i was interested in or needed. Just load the latest rev of each batch of firmware. These files include all releases. Some of the early versions were pretty funky. Feel free to ask Phil the VK guy questions he is very helpful if I don't answer your questions. Also post questions on HPSDR someone will jump in and help. Great you have LEDs lighting up. My penny does not do full power because my output transformer is backwards. It steps down rather than up. This is easier on the final and still drives the pants off ERB. I think i get about 300mw.

Frank,

Don't worry about sending me any files or info.  I expected to get everything on the site. Your stuff may be out of date anyway.

Yes, at least the boards are working. I'll just take my time and fine tune everything and see what happens.

Thanks for the help so far!

T

will there be a plug-in board called Barista ?  ;D

You are best off asking the hPSDR gang for the latest SVN site since it has changed a number of times and i'm not sure if the links in WIKI are up to date. You are so very close to operational.

Just to keep this thread's continuity, I'm presently working with one of the HPSDR members who is helping me to load firmware for the boards.  Ozy's firmware (comm board) gets loaded automatically on bootup from the PowerSDR software. However, Mercury(RX) and Penny(TX) must be done manually when desired.

He's the info and software needed to do it and then later maintain auto-updates with a couple of mouse clicks:



"To update firmware in the FPGAs it is only necessary to download the Quartus II Programmer, not the entire Quartus II development package.  Sorry I didn't make that clear in my earlier post.  The Quartus II programmer may be downloaded free from

https://www.altera.com/support/software/download/programming/quartus2/dnl-quartus2_programmer.jsp

and is only 177 MB in size, relative to the multiple GB full development package for Quartus II." 


T

You should be on the air today.
It all comes back to me now.
Great you got the latest links.
Please email them to me or post the link

Here's the continuation from my last post. See below the instructions to get the USB_Blaster working and how to load the firmware into the two Mercury diversity receivers. Joe/K5SO  has been very helpful. I'll post the next set of instructions as I get to those steps.

This HPSDR stuff sure isn't plug and play.

I'm going up on the shack roof to do some shoveling... ;D


T



See below:
-----------


We won't be running the Quartus II Programmer directly, we'll use a batch-file (usbblaster.bat) to do it, but first let's get things we will need.


From my website page http://www.k5so.com/HPSDR_downloads.html, under the "TO DOWNLOAD ONLY MERCURY V6.3 FIRMWARE" click on the  "USB_Blaster to load Mercury v6.3 firmware only (0.7 MB)" link to download the USB_Blaster_Mercury v6.3.zip file.  Unzip it.  In the unzipped folder you will find the files needed, including a README.txt file that contains step-by-step instructions on how to proceed.  Open the README.txt file (you can use any text editor that you happen to have available.  I use Notepad.)  


Now you have already performed Step 1 in the the README.txt file by downloading the Quartus II Programmer and installing it.  Start at Step 2 in the README.txt file to install the Altera USB-Blaster device driver.  


Here is step 2, for reference.  I see that the "SUBSEQUENTLY GOTO STEP 4" should actually say "SUBSEQUENTLY GOTO STEP 3" but no matter, we want to perform Step 2 and Step 3 and Step 4 in sequence this time anyway so do what is listed in Step 2, exactly:


**************************
2. THE FIRST TIME YOU DO THIS DO THE FOLLOWING. SUBSEQUENTLY GOTO STEP 4.
    
   These steps load the Altera USBblaster drivers.    


   Connect just your Ozy board to the Atlas bus, connect the USB cable and power it on.


   Run the file usbblaster.bat. This will load the code in the FX2 to make it appear
   to be an Altera USBblaster.


   Windows will detect a new USB device. You need to install the drivers for it.


   See http://www.altera.com/literature/ug/ug_usb_blstr.pdf for driver installation instructions.




   Most of this installation instruction deals with the 10-pin programming cable.
   What you need can be found in section 1.3.


   After running the batch-file usbblaster.bat, the Found New Hardware Wizard will open.


   Select: Install from a list or specific location and browse to


   C:/altera/[version]/qprogrammer/drivers/usb-blaster where [version] is the version you have downloaded


   The Wizard will then install altera USB-Blaster




   Check that the drivers have installed correctly by looking in


   Start\Control Panel\System\Hardware\Device Manager\Universal Serial Bus controllers


   there should be an entry marked  Altera USB-Blaster


**********************


If this step worked as described, great! You're almost there!  Power off the HPSDR Atlas bus, move your Ozy board to slot 5 on the Atlas bus (second from the power connector), install a jumper on the "Last JTAG" pins on the Mercury board as described in Step 3, plug the Mercury board into slot 6 (next to the power connector) and power the Atlas bus back on.  Proceed on to Step 4, etc to load the Mercury v6.3 into the Mercury FPGA.  When the "Program-Mercury-EPCS16.bat" file executes it will bring up a new command line window (black background with white lettering), select the version of Quartus II programmer that you have downloaded (v10, I think) and hit Enter, the bat file will then begin running the Quartus II Programmer and the lettering in the window will turn green as it proceeds.  It will run for a bit and if everything is going okay all the messages will be in green lettering, if there are errors you will get messages in red (ouch!).  When all is done you will see a white lettered message telling you to hit any key and the FPGA is now loaded.  Power cycle the Atlas bus (turn it off, wait a couple of seconds, then power it back on.  You should see a couple of flashing LEDs on the Mercury board if all is okay.  


You can now run the KD5TFD PowerSDR program and it should operate fine.  If so, check the Setup > General > HPSDR menu to see that the Mercury version that is being reported is Mercury v6.3.  Let me know if you get this far!

Tom Remember when you power up power sdr for the first time you have to set up the clock source. Penny, Mercury, external etc, Then the sample rate
I use 96K then the RX select the two extra modes Dither and the other.
Once you get mercury to run the S meter and display will be carzy. Go to the calibration page and put your sig gen into mercury. Select a frequency and level and run the calibration. Once you have a cal stored you are functional.
Make sure you go through the mercury and penny manual that show all the set up. You should be full up soon

Yep, gots that covered, Frank. That was HPSDR 101 a week ago and now we're in 301 class... ;D

And to think, only a short 40 years ago it was a simple peak the grid, and dip the final - lice all done!

T

Yea, but just think how smug you will be, or sell it to me for $100 after you give up

$100 bux won't even shine your shoes... on Broadway.

Well, not to scare any potential builders, but the following is the next series of steps to get the firmware installed and working automatically for future updates. This is the FULL text. I'm in the middle of it now.

What did you get me into here, Frank?   ;D

T


See Below:
--------



Phil Harman - VK6APH - 25 Arpil 2010
mod: K5SO 18Dec2010 reduced size for Mercury v6.3 loading only

 *******  NOTE:  Altera indicates that their software will run on 32 bit versions of XP and Vista. Support or Win7 or 64 bit vesions is not presently indicated. ******



Here are the steps requried to progam the EPCS16 on the Mercury board.



1. Install the Quartus II Programmer application (112MB) from www.altera.com i.e.

 
https://www.altera.com/support/software/download/programming/quartus2/dnl-qu
artus2_programmer.jsp

   Install in the default directory. If you install in a different directory then edit
   Program-Mercury-EPCS16.bat to reflect the change.

   We need to install this application in order to load the large number of
   DLLs requried to run the simple command line  programer (quartus_pgm.exe)
   - if there is a better way of doing this please share it!!

2. THE FIRST TIME YOU DO THIS DO THE FOLLOWING. SUBSEQUENTLY GOTO STEP 3.
    
   These steps load the Altera USBblaster drivers.    

   Connect just your Ozy board to the Atlas bus, connect the USB cable and power it on.

   Run the file usbblaster.bat. This will load the code in the FX2 to make it appear
   to be an Altera USBblaster.

   Windows will detect a new USB device. You need to install the drivers for it.

   See http://www.altera.com/literature/ug/ug_usb_blstr.pdf for driver installation instructions.


   Most of this installation instruction deals with the 10-pin programming cable.
   What you need can be found in section 1.3.

   After running the batch-file usbblaster.bat, the Found New Hardware Wizard will open.

   Select: Install from a list or specific location and browse to

   C:/altera/[version]/qprogrammer/drivers/usb-blaster where [version] is the version you have downloaded

   The Wizard will then install altera USB-Blaster


   Check that the drivers have installed correctly by looking in

   Start\Control Panel\System\Hardware\Device Manager\Universal Serial Bus controllers

   there should be an entry marked  Altera USB-Blaster


3. To update your Mercury board, fit a jumper to the header pins marked
   LAST JTAG JP7 at bottom left of the board just above  the Atlas connector.
    

4. Power off your Atlas board. To program Mercury, plug just your Mercury and Ozy board into the Atlas bus.
   The board to be programmed MUST be closest to the power connector and the Ozy board in the NEXT slot.
   Turn the power on to your Atlas bus.  

5. To program Mercury run the batch file Program-Mercury-EPCS16-v6.3.bat, select which version of the Altera Quartus
   programmer code you are using, there should be no errors.
   It takes approximately 1 minute to load the EPCS16.


6. Power cycle the supply to the Atlas bus.

7. Run PowerSDR.

8. Test Mercury with PowerSDR. If necessary recalibrate Frequency and Level.
Mercury version number should now show
   as Mercury v6.3 in the Setup > HPSDR firmware menu.

NOTE: The jumper inserted at step 3 can be left in place for now.


This is how the process works.

Firstly the FX2 is loaded with code to make it appear as an Altera USBblaster.
We have previously  converted the usual *.sof file into a *.jic file (see Altera application note AN370).

We then load code into the FPGA that enables it to write to its associated flash memory.

We then use quartus_pgm to run *.cdf. This loads *.jic into the FPGA, the imbeded *.sof file is then loaded into the flash memory.

So close, but no cigar.  I got thru all but the last step.
 
As per the steps in the last post, I have the USB Blaster in the correct systems folder - checked it and it's there.
 
I plugged in the OZY to position 5 and Merc position  6 (with Merc jumper) and ran the EPS16... bat file.
 
It starts to load and look good until it asks for the Altera version. There is a choice with versions going up to version 10.0.    I am using version 10.1 according to the screen when I do an .exe from the bin file on it.  I type #8 choice (ver 10.0, there is no 10.1 listed)
 
Then the .bat routine  says, "Installing Mercury ver_ 6.3" and then:
 
"The system cannot find the path specified."  "Press any key to continue."  When I run it again, same thing.  I tried cycling the boards on and off, NG.
 
What path is it asking for? Could it be looking for  v10.0  vs: my 10.1 installed?  I think maybe the installation .bat is out of date and does not recognize the new Altera version I'm using... sigh.

I sent an email to Joe and awaiting an answer.  Maybe I need to find an older Altera or they can change the .bat file choices.  This FPGA stuff sure uses a lot of code to do what it does.

T
 

Tom have you restarted the computer since you loaded bit blaster? Might need to. I've had the same problem when I selected the wrong version of bit blaster. Since you do not have the option to select, I don't know how to proceed. That is the reason I thought you should load older stuff first.
Sounds like you are working with wrong EPS16 version.
Did you check the control panel in the computer to see if it is set up properly?

try editing the path in the bat file.

Install in the default directory. If you install in a different directory then edit
   Program-Mercury-EPCS16.bat to reflect the change.
Yes, it is possible EPCS16 is looking in the wrong spot.

C:/altera/[version]/qprogrammer/drivers/usb-blaster where [version] is the version you have downloaded
  EPCS16 also wants the version correct to find the path so if you can't select the correct version you are hosed.

Did you check this in your computer?:
Start\Control Panel\System\Hardware\Device Manager\Universal Serial Bus controllers
Did it come up found new hardware?

This is the hardest part then you are home free. I think I am using an older version of bit blaster since it was at least a year ago. I know i get the same error message if I select the wrong version.

Hang in there Sgt. Andersen
I sure Jay would buy your hardware if you want to go back to your stone ax

Tom,
You may have downloaded the wrong software let me check when I get home. Ask HPSDR guys also.
http://www.altera.com/download/drivers/dri-index.html

It is not a 177MB file I think you downloaded FPGA programming software.

Joe said it WAS the Altera version 10.1 causing the bad path. He updated the batch file and resent it to me. I'll give it a go.  I want to stay with all this latest software, so don't send any older stuff. We'll figger it out.

T



Joe said:

"Yes indeed, that's exactly what's happening.  Sounds good, you're making great progress!  

Attached is a modified "Program-Mercury-EPCS16-v6.3.bat" file that includes an option for Quartus II Programmer v10.1.  Replace the "Program-Mercury-EPCS16-v6.3.bat" file in your "USB_Blaster_Mercury v6.3" folder with this one and run it instead.  Hopefully that'll fix you up. "

**UPDATE:  Tried the new .bat file and same result. Checking further.

http://www.altera.com/download/drivers/usb-blaster/dri-usb-blaster-xp.html

I think this is what you need. You just need comminication software not the ability to program FPGAs

Tom could you mail it to me if it works so I can update my driver?
I don't think many guys are using diversity yet so maybe there need sto be better instructions to get Joe's stuff going.

Remember Joe is writing FPGA code, you just need to load it not edit it.
I remember the last link I sent you and setting it up. It doesn't need to be a 177M driver. 
Heck when Metis arrives I'll be doing the same thing.

Yay! Got it working!

The problem was the "quartus" folder  should be named "qprogrammer"

Maybe Atares changed it in the recent 10.1 ver.  I changed the .bat file and it updated the Mercury FPGA normally.  It appears that I may be the first person going thru these new software set ups, cuz the diversity is new and I wanted to use the latest client, etc.

I tried PowerSDR and Merc works FB as a receiver now. I see the noise floor is high, at about  -80db, but understand that will be corrected when I set the levels. It's just bare bones now, but at least working. I'll see if Penny's firmware is recent when I fire it up next.

So, guess the next step is to get the diversity PowerSDR working. Hope it's as easy as adding a few critical files to the exisiting folders - or might be more complex. I'd like to do it now that I'm hot on this stuff.

What files do you need, the .bat file to work with Alteras  Quartus II ver 10.1?  Everything else is in the links posted above.   I will let ya know about the PowerSDR for diversity when Joe gets back to me. That is our next step.

T

Tom,
You should get a noise floor of about 140 dBM with the preamplifier on. You select it from the left side near the AGC. Calibration is easy.
Joe has been doing firmware releases  and power SDR releases about every three weeks since he got diversity working. It has only been working since about Thanksgiving
The hardest part is done for you. Loading firmware in penny will be easy.
BTW did you read about the guys who want two penny boards to drive two finals and have option to shift phase on TX??
Thanks for the info. I'll store it until I upgrade. Hope you make the QRP net Sunday running HPSDR.

Yep, Joe is a good guy.  He spent a few hours (over two days) working with me via emails. Just finished up with him and gots his K5SO diversity PowerSDR software running. It is beautiful!!!   Nice coloring, has the radar screen for diversity nulling, the panfall look great and my noise floor is at -140 out of the box before calibration.. :-)

The software setup is real easy. He explained it in the doc below. For some reason I had a problem understanding the stuff on the website, but his writings are a breeze, including the firmware downloads.

I got his permission to repost his comments. It will help every newbie like me to get out of the woods. I plan to post a link to this thread on HPSDR later on when it's complete. He thought that's a good idea to help new people get going.

BTW, why would someone want to change transmit phase, for antenna phasing from the shack? I suppose that wud be a good complement to the RX phase nulling. A pair of antennas spaced a wavelength wud be interesting.

Here's Joe's steps to get his K5SO PowerSDR diversity software running. It also includes files for both Merc and Penny firmware updates. Just get Quartus II going and you're all set for quick download in the future.

T


Joe’s comments:
-------------------

---Hi Tom,


Congratulations!  Now you're really getting your feet wet!  Way to go!


Yes, after you calibrate the levels using the calibrate routine, with a known signal level of course, in the Setup menu your baseline will be suitably low.  


Now, the PowerSDR diversity program is based on a variant of W5WCs version of PowerSDR.  It has a much nice looking front panel but you pay for that in a little bit more complexity in setup.  


Basically, the two programs use different ways to store the myriad of settings in PowerSDR.  The KD5TFD version uses a file called PowerSDR.mbd for that and its located in the same folder where the PowerSDR.exe file is located, whereas the W5WC version (and diversity program) use a file called database.xml which is not located in that folder at all.  


In fact, to get the proper display for the W5WC version (and the diversity version) we will need to put some folders onto your system.  If you haven't run W5WCs version before you will need to download a pretty large file from my website (www.k5so.com/HPSDR_downloads):  


PowerSDR v1.19.3.1.diversity15 (K5SO 19DEC2010) distribution files (60 MB)


since you will be installing this from scratch.  It contains, among other things, the FlexRadio Systems folder, which is what we need right now to get your system set up with the "skins" overlays for the front panel display.  It's a bit of a pain in the rear but its worth it (you'll see!) and you only have to do this once.  


So download the zip file referenced above, unzip it, and do the following:


Put the "FlexRadio Systems"  folder into the "C:\Documents and Settings\<your username>\Application Data" folder.  


Note that "Application Data" folder is a hidden folder on your system so to see it you will have to go into "Control Panel" then select "Folder Options"  the go to "View" and select "Show hidden files and folders".  


After putting the "FlexRadio Systems" folder into the "Application Data" folder you can simply go to the PowerSDR v1.19.3.1.diversity15 folder in your unzipped folder, click on the green/black PowerSDR.exe icon in the PowerSDR v1.19.3.1.diversity15\bin\Release" folder to run the diversity program.  Of course, you may create a shortcut for the program and put it on your desktop or "pin" it to show up your "Start" display, or where ever you prefer to make it easy for you to access so that you don't have to keep navigating to the unzipped folder to run the diversity program.  


Let me know if you have troubles and need more hints.


Joe K5SO

Well, I’ll call it a clean sweep today.  Got Mercury updated, Diversity software installed and next Penny firmware later tonight. That should be easy with Quartus working with the .bat file. There is a different .bat file for Penny that I need to modify for 10.1, as you know.

So now it’s fun stuff like connecting up station cables and optimizing the transceiver with software bells and whistles.

Gee, I wish I had that second Mercury RX now. The radar screen is waving at me.

Install the diversity ASAP and check it out.

T

More comments from Joe below…

-------



Joe on computer capability:

By the way, I might mention that when you run some of this high performance hardware/software on single core machines they sometimes have a hard time keeping up, especially if you're trying to run multiple application programs simultaneously.  So don't be too surprised if your single core machine is quite busy in terms of percentage of CPU needed to run PowerSDR.  You may even need to run at the lowest sampling rate, 48000, to keep from having audio dropouts, or maybe not!  We'll find out!

Good work, OM.  Let me know if you run into any more trouble.  I'll be happy to try to help.  Good luck with it!  I'll be very pleased to hear how your FB antenna farm plays with the diversity code. 

73,  Joe K5SO



More from Joe on firmware updates:


When you download the distribution zip file that I referenced in my previous email you will see that it contains a folder called:

nRxBlasterBinaries

In that folder you will see, among other files, a batch file called "Program-Penelope-EPCS4.bat".  That is the one you run to update Penelope, exactly as you did for Mercury.  It's easy now that you have the Quartus II Programmer in place. 

However, before you run the batch file you must put a "Last JTAG" jumper on the Penelope board and put the board in slot 6, next to the power connector, and have Ozy in slot 5 next to it.  No other board with a "Last JTAG" jumper can be on the bus at any given time.  You may simply remove the Mercury board from the Atlas bus while you do this update for Penelope, of course. 


Joe K5SO

Another tip from Joe for the archives. This pertains to making an error in hardware that confuses the software - best to power on/off/on (reset) the hardware.

T

====


Oh, by the way, relative to the messages below:  When (if) you try to run Program-Mercury-EPCS16-v6.3.bat twice in a row it will fail just like that.  To run the .bat file a second time you need to power down and up the Atlas board to reset things, then run the .bat file again. 


Sometimes this will happen, for example, if you try to run Program-Mercury-EPCS16-v6.3.bat when the USB cable is not plugged in to Ozy.  In such a case you simply need to power down the Atlas bus and power it up again (after a couple of seconds) and try again. 

Joe K5SO

Very cool. I guess I will  be asking the same stupid questions when metis arrives. Glad you are up and running. When you get to the RX set up page, I run quantize and dither modes turned on. I get audio dropouts at 192k. I think I could use more ram since I have 4 cores running at under 10% horse power. I'm told I get an audio drop out once in a while at 96K on TX.
Your hardware seems to be about the same age as mine so don't be surprised Penny output is low. Many boards were built with the output transformer backwards.
Don't try to put line level audio into Penny. I think there will be way too much gain. The internal EQ and compressor seem to work fine. I looked at the schematic and didn't see any way to change the gain since mic audio goes into the Penny DSP and is controlled by firmware. Maybe you could take a look at the TX set up to see if the gain can be modified i didn't think to look there last Sunday.

I was going to axe you about the gain issue. I want to come in with 1V line from the audio gear. Maybe I'll post a question on the HPSDR forum about it.

Hey, it's working!!  The screen is OMG! OMG! I don't even have the speakers on yet but the spec analyzer and panfall are unreal. Even the diversity radar screen works, but needs a second RX.  The noise floor is very low. I need to calibrate everything tmw. This is WAY WAY more refined than the Softrock, I must admit.

It was all worth the work just to see this pretty screen tonight.  Penny's firmware is now programmed, so all set with software updates. Just fine tuning now.  I sent you a .bat for both Merc and Penny to update. I modified the Penny .bat myself, so beware...

I'm so afraid of popping something that I walk around it like it's 5KV in there.... :o

Upload Joe's diversity software.  How can anyone have so much fun and learn so much for $550? It must be illegal.

T

And here's what's producing those pretty pictures. The station cabling is not hooked up yet, just the computer interface.

T

This pile of silicon no-soul junque is a working ALL-MODE, high proformance SDR 160-6M transceiver, baby!... :o

More helpful comments from Joe/K5SO concerning auto- software updates, firmware, etc:


HOW TO AUTO_UPDATE K5SO’s Diversity PowerSDR software:


Yes, certainly.  However, as I noted in my previous email, my code does not reside on the SVN so updating via the Tortoise client is not possible.   

To update to the latest version of my diversity code simply go to http://www.k5so.com/HPSDR_downloads.html

and click on the link

•   TO UPGRADE FROM AN EARLIER DIVERSITY PROGRAM VERSION:
•   PowerSDR v1.19.3.1.diversity15 (K5SO 19DEC2010) (37MB) (executable, source, debug, and Visual Studio 2008 solution)

I update this link to a new version when I have a new one to offer that either fixes bugs in the present one or offers new or enhanced capabilities.   At the moment I'm working on a three-Mercury board implementation of the code for directional phasing of three antennas but at the moment it is still in the early stages of development and has some problems and unfinished sections so I don't have a download on the website for it yet. 



Penny firmware comments:

I believe that v1.2 is the current version for Penelope.  It hasn't changed for quite a long time, at least not that I know about, hihi.  Of course, the latest versions of all the "official" HPSDR software resides on the SVN repository. 

The reason that my diversity code isn't on the SVN is that it is officially only "test" code presently and not formally part of the formal HPSDR software suite; to be politically correct. 

Well, plug in some computer speakers so you can listen to the audio.
Then read the manuals on mercury and Penny and play with the set ups.
Cool display.
So you think HPSDR is cool. Today a friend who is a GE apps engineer  was telling me about some boards they have that sample at 250 MHz for use in SDR receivers. We can't afford them though.
Now imagine this hardware in a K4 or K5 transceiver
I'm running Penny 1.2 , agree with Joe.

I listened on the headphones last night. Without the panscope on it sounds FB and smooth. (CPU at 14%) But when the scope is on the audio is dropping out every second for an instant. (CPU at 40-56%) Like a rapid fire oscillation. Looks like the computer is too slow for the job. (Four years old, 1G ram, 1 core, 2.5G speed, Dell dimension 3000)


I tried changing the sampling to min at 48K and all the buffer settings, but still there.  Tried many other settings, but NG. Looks like I need a four-core computer or something like that. This is a one core and Joe warned me about it. O'well. Chuck went out and bought a new 4-core for his Flex knowing the problem. Well documented.

We'll take a look at fine tuning and testing later today.

Anyone have suggestions for a FAST computer that is under $700?


T

I wouldn't give up too quickly on your current system Tom. I use WinXP with a single core P4 running at 3.0ghz with 1G of ram and it handles PSDR chores while multi-tasking with Photoshop, Adobe Audition, email, Firefox, my chat program, and all kinds of other assorted miscellaneous stuff. The CPU utilization runs between 18% - 22% with the panadapter enabled. When I'm rendering video or converting audio with other programs it will jump to 85% - 100% but no audio dropouts occur. From the thread, I'm guessing that the HPSDR hardware uses the USB interface rather than firewire. If you have other items plugged into the USB interface it might be worth unplugging them to see if your bandwidth through the interface improves. I know this has caused issues with the Flex 1500 which also connects through the USB interface, especially if older USB 1.0 legacy devices were plugged in. Cameras and printers sharing the USB interface have been a problem for some. There also may be non-critical services running on your system that are resource hogs. It might be worth a few minutes watching the task manager to see what resources are being allocated by programs running in the background.

Hope you get it running smoothly. Everyone whirl-wide is waiting to hear it!

Metis should be a lot better for moving data over ethrnet. I went into my task manager and set PSDR to high priority. I still get drop outs now and then. Seems to to be better if you leave the rig and computer on for a while. also increasing the amount of ram also helps. HPSDR guys think firewire is going to go away and settled on Ethrnet  with a PHY chip that can go 1000 MB.
They plan to limit it to 100MB for now because the LPU can't supply enough 5 volt current to Atlas. Tom you should look out for a bigger 5 volt module.
I am able to run at 96K sample rate.48k is plenty unless you want to monitor large hunks of the spectrum.
Rob, I should be on the QRP net with my HPSDR rig again Sunday running about 20 watts.

Sounds good Frank. I'll re-schedule my nap and see if I can sign in tomorrow with my 807 power equivalent!

Tnx for the suggestions Rob and Frank.

I looed closely at the task mgr and see only the SDR taking up CPU.  (Except for the "idle process")

The CPU% is still about 20% with no scope and smooth - and about 55% with scope and very choppy.

I don't have any USB stuff plugged in except for the mouse and keyboard on this computer.  I tried many toggles on the sdr software and see no differnce in the drop outs with the scope on.  Interesting that yours is smooth at 90% there Rob.

I also set the SDR to high priority and even real time, but made no difference at all compared to its original setting.

Also ran a program that cleaned up the system registry, but no affect.

Gonna do the SDR calibration now.  If youse guys come up wid some more ideas to try, let me know.



T

My mouse and keyboard ard direct connect. Maybe that is the bottlekneck. Looks like you need metis

My Mercury noise floor without ant is S7! About -95dbm on the panscope after calibration. The FT-1000D drops to S0 with no ant.

 A 50uv signal into the Merc gives S9 as expected.  Something is wrong here.  Been digging around with no luck so far.  Weak signals are buried way down in the noise compared to the FT-1000D.

** Update:  Bad BNC connector. I hate those homo-jacks!  Now the noise floor is at -135dbm and I can see on the pan - and hear a 0.1 uv signal clearly.  Life is getting better.

T

Get rid of that POS SDR thing. Real men don't use such things.

Gee I walk away from the computer for 1/2 an hour and come back to a string of emails starting with Tom Vu loading the whole thing in a box and throwing it at  me to happy as a clam.
Tom go back to the HPSDR site and read about getting started. There is a link to a program that will tell you if the computer is up to the job.
http://openhpsdr.org/wiki/index.php?title=Quick_Startup_Guide
Look at "System real time...."
I'm running around 8 to 12%. The HPSDR guys have been dreaming of a better interface for a while I think Metis will fix this. But LPU isn't up to the task you need more 5 volt current.

My attorney, Huzman, sez to get rid of this POS. What can I do?

It's working about as good as the FT-1000D now. I had the preamp on for awhile and couldn't hear dick. I started seeing ADC overload flashes on the screen..  I turned it off and now it's much cleaner. That preamp sux on a noisy night. Just like any RF preamp on 75M for that matter.  (Unless I have something wrong there)

Yes, the 5V supply is getting hot. No doubt.

After this detour maybe I can make some progess.  This thing is as tough as getting Rico Suave, the PDM e-rig  working right. At least Rico was all hardware.

T

That is sooooo not true Steve.

Awesome!

Well if you are flashing overload  good chance the noise floor is well above -135 dBM.  HPSDR does need a nice preselector. My overload flashes once in a while but not when the band is quiet. Hope you don't have any BCI.

Hello This is Sgt. Andersen from the Marloboro Police Dept.....would you like to donate some SDR boards to a good cause?

Tom This all started when you wanted a good spectrum analyzer. Now you have one.

Got Penny transmitting on AM and ssb. Ran some two tone tests on ssb and appears to be TOO clean to be true at 100mW.  It looks like each band has to be calibrated to put out more than 10mW. I have about 400mW pep out on ssb and about 140mW pep on AM. That's plenty.  The % mod on AM is upwards of 200% the way it's set at 35% carrier on the setting.

The RX is working well now.  

The computer is still skipping with the pan-scopes on but smooth without them.

Maybe the mic input will work when the gain is all the way down, but I notice the ALC and mic meters are real close to red line, NG.

I have Penny keying PTT all by a single ground input.  If I have enough time, I'll try to get on with 100mW on AM and check into the QRP net and we can talk later on ssb too.

*** Update:  Phil/ VK6APH sent me a .bat file for the line input tonight. I sent you a copy to try too. As busy as they are designing this stuff, these HPSDR guys are really helpful.

T

Tom,
Remember 1/4 carrier power on AM so even if your transformer on Penny is right you will only get 100 mW. I think I'm driving erb at under 20 mW on the display. Yes you can get some real positive peaks if you want. So now after all this trouble over the past two days you get to see the TX. So tell me can Flex generate a signal that clean?
TNX for the file. I still have a real lot of extra gain with the condenser mic on penny. I could use some help setting up the EQ. I might get the JN or ZYL to listen to  me. The delay will make your head spin. I never looked at the ALC. I need to check it out. I'm running 25% on AM.
I find 3870 a good quiet test frequency in the afternoon.

Tom,
Batch files seem pretty easy to modify. Just have to know which one and where. When I first started playing with this stuff I had a Motorola DSP Eval module.  Pete WA1SOV gave me some code that I would modify to get different bandwidths. It really worked well but you had to reload code every time you changed bandwidths. It looked a lot like the DSP batch file Phil sent you.

Frank,

Use the "monitor"  function in the software and plug headphones into Mercury to hear yourself in real time without the delay. However, it does not work on AM. I will use a separate mod monitor for that, but will have to figure something out for the delay problem.

What do you SDR guys do on AM?  I bet Rob knows. He knows everything there is to know about using a Flex on AM.. :-)


Yes, the .bat files are EZ to work with and edit.

You can set the AM carrier level all the way to 50% and still see 170% modulation. It does not seem to mean "50%" of pep power like you'd think.  But I notice when the DRIVE slider is all the way up it produces some nasty spurs on the audio peaks. I wonder if the drive control is what changes the number of bits used, thus the desire to have it all the way up?  Where do you run your drive control?   Did you get into the transmitter section and play with the db gain for each band? It seems I needed to set it to 38db and do the calibrate function to get the power up there for both ssb and AM. Originally it was set at 10mW.   I'll fuss with it again today to get things optimized once the line level works with the .bat. 

Yes, keep an eye on the whole list of audio levels at the top right meter next to the S meter. Some are dangerously close to red line with the mic input all the way down, thus the new .bat mod attempt.

T

gain 38 sounds right. I need to check the manual on drive and gain
 My drive is not all the way up. Maybe I should put the HP141 on the kaz and monitor myself. SSB it is easy to watch the display and see the unwanted sideband come out of the noise floor. I need to determine how to watch the AM display to see when you get in trouble. I'm going to play with settings today to see the best settings. The power supply on the Erb final is not regulated and only does 24 volts. It makes nice positive peaks but the voltage isn't stable when you lean into it. I never noticed the ALC thing.

Why can't you monitor your own spectrum with the HPSDR?

Steve,

The Merc RX samples RF directly from the Penny board at 500mW.   According to the Flex head guys, anyway,  there needs to be an attenuator put in and a sample manually tapped off the linear stage ahead. I have already placed connectors and relays for that on my rig.

Frank or Rob: (or Flex users)   How to you preset the AM TX bandwidth and ssb TX bandwidth so that it automatically adjusts for each mode? Under the setup/transmit area, I see the TX bandwidth and can adjust it for 2.8kc or +-4.5 Khz. However, it does not remember these settings and uses the previous setting whether on AM or ssb.   I hit apply and OK after selecting DX or default selections, but NG.

Now that I think about it, I really need to reread the Flex software manual...  There's other stuff I'm wondering about too... like how do you easily change freq when the panadapter is off without using the mouse thumbwheel? A simulated tuning knob on the screen might be nice too.

T

The .bat file to change the audio in from mic input to line level did not work.  So, I reduced the internal mic gain, preamp gain to minimum - and also brought the internal EQ down to -12db  and this simulates line input nicely. I now have the same input gain as the FT-1000D - perfect.

I found that the drive control for power is OK all the way up. The error was the internal two tone test puts out too much audio and causes spurs when the drive is too high. But running the rig at for drive is normally OK.

The signals on both AM and ssb look very clean with the line level audio, so think we're all set wid that w/o a .bat file.   I'm going to put the rig online with the station and play around with final adjustments. Maybe see ya on later for some tests.

I will be running 25mW AM carrier for the QRP Net, if I have the time to finish up here... ;D  Into the Henry amp would make that about 400mW... wow!

T

Tom,
I checked my Penny on a power meter and getting just shy of 200 mW out on CW. with gain set at 38. I'm running drive pot at max. I think my transformer is backwards but the ALC seems to function fine. I have plenty of drive for the erb amplifier. I'm running about 125% positive peaks at 20 watts out. Just spent some time with Rob W1AEX on 3870 getting things dialed in on SSB and AM. We heard a carrier a couple times but not sure if it was you. Hope you can check in to the QRPP net. I found the TX monitors so looked at ALC. Rob thought it good to look at mic gain showing compressor action. Condenser mic seems to be working fine.

Hi Tom,

Earlier today, Frank and I spotted some subtle differences in the software audio chain between the version of PowerSDR distributed by Flex and the modified version that the HPSDR guys are distributing, but I suspect the TX Profile procedure is the same.

The mode function and TX bandwidth function are separate, so it is necessary to select your desired mode, and then select the TX profile you wish to use for that session. When you have all your TX audio levels, TX EQ settings and TX bandwidth settings the way you want for AM, go to the "Setup" menu in the top left corner of PSDR and then select the Transmit tab. In the upper left you will see a "Save As" button that will allow you to keep that profile. I created four different AM TX profiles, one for 12kc, one for 10kc, one for 9kc and a last one I named AM Scratch that is just for messing around with.

Another setting worth exploring for AM is the AM Carrier Level which is also located on the Transmit tab. By reducing that below 100% (75% - 60% is a nice range to play with) it's possible to take advantage of the asymmetrical audio capabilities of your hardware and produce some impressive positive peaks.

For sideband, I created profiles from 2.7kc - 6.0kc in .1 steps so I can quickly look at what the station I am talking to is using and match right up to them.

Each TX profile you save will take a snapshot of your TX power level, TX audio level at each stage of the audio chain, TX EQ setting, and TX bandwidth setting. Each time you load one of these profiles, those settings will be faithfully retrieved. You can create as many profiles as you like, and you can delete profiles you wish to discard.

When you have things set up really well, if your version of PSDR allows it, you can then save your entire database to your computer's hard drive, allowing you to preserve every setting, including custom receive filters you design in PowerSDR. This allows you to import all your user settings into new versions of PowerSDR as you upgrade to newer versions.

Your 10mw signal was quite readable today on the AM QRP net. I believe you win the prize for lowest power! When you get your HPSDR squared away, it might be fun to play around with bandwidth and audio up on 6 meters. Having encountered your signal on that band a few times, I suspect your 10mw will be S-9 + 60dB at my location!

73,

Rob

Excellent, Rob. Thanks for the detailed explanation to getting the presets right. Yes, I saw those options, but didn't look closely yet. That's a nice feature to have - to be able to save complete session setting to call back later. Will do.

Glad you're getting zeroed in, Frank. I'll give you a listen next week.

I ran into some minor issues after the net with the rig, so wanted to focus in and not get on 3870.  It seems that when I PTT unkey, whether if the Mercury has an ant plug on the board connector or not, I get a spike that slams the S-meter to the end for an instant. What has happened is sometimes the software will lose its mind and push the AM carrier up to full output and look fuzzy on the scope, needing reboot.

OR, more common, when I unkey, the RX goes into a weird audio ramp up like a siren and then starts sweeping up and down in freq. The display then get frozen. If I turn off the computer, I can still hear a slight sound in the headphone, like the hardware is the cause.  It seems more sensitive to this when I run the dummyload and on AM. On the ant on ssb is doesn't seem to occur.

I'm thinking that maybe the unkey spike is clobbering the RX ADC input or something like that. When I power on and off and reboot the software, everything is fine again until a random PTT keying spike causes it again. Funny, but it started at the station position and never did it at the bench.

Anytime I turn off the RX I hear a short motorboating for a second and it dies.  Maybe I need some toroids or some kind of filtering.  It seems more stable when I key the MOX on the screen and manually key the ant realy. I dunno.

Other than that, the rig seems pretty close to operational. I ran some receiver tests and listened to the ssb bandwidth and it's CLEAN CLEAN!  When the TX filter is set at 3kc, it brick wall down. I ran a TX sweep with the audio gen and have never seen such a sharp filter in my life.

T

Notice I added a little fan. It definately keeps the PS and boards cooler:

After giving it some thought, I'll bet the spike I see in the RX on unkey is the inductive kick from that one relay connected to Penny's output keying. Even with the diode across the coil it's probably causing an arc.  I'll disconnect all three relays and see what happens.   The relay probably spikes the supply voltage and cause Penny to lock up in TX. That's probably the sweeping audio sound I hear in the RX and the trash I see on the scope when it happens.


Frank, do you see an S-meter kick up on unkey during AM operation?

I may need to go with those optical keying buffers.


T

Tom,
Too bad you didn't listen it this afternoon. Rob and I were on 3870 between 1:30 and almost 3:00. We set up my audio and shared set up ideas between Flex and HPSDR. I saved a couple set ups for AM and SSB. I don't know why SSB bandwidths track RX it is just a software decision. I don't think Merury monitors the TX signal since there is no connection between the TX and RX. I think is is some sort of digital interface to the display. The TX output signal is detected and fed back into software. I do know what to look for when in TX SSB. Your idea of looking at the ALC is a good idea in TX.
I'm not sure what your transient issue is. I'm still two switch operation but can tell you I have been out of sequence a number of times without any issues. BTW try the multiple RX mode. You can listen to two QSOs at once.
I had the QRP net on 3870 and the guys on 3.838. Both need to be on the same mode though. The range is limited by the sample rate.
We even dialed in my TX frequency offset which is quite easy.

Tom,
Low voltages like 3.3, 2.5 and 1.2 volts are very sensitive to power transients. This is my reason for wanting to use opto couplers as an interface.  You can cause interesting logic lockups if one supply gets out of range. I have even seen part failures when power come up wrong. Newer FPGAs are less sensitive.  Even transients fed back into the 12 volt supply can couple to the wrong place. This is my reason for having only linear power supply modules in my pandora. Everything is shielded or twisted with a ground lead. The chassis does not carry any power currents. I treat the chassis like it is an insulator so all power leads are twisted with a return back to the supply. May help to put a good size cap on 13 volts at the input of LPU.
LPU not my idea of a good power supply. You saw my pictures.

I'll check the monitor function now and see...


Update:

With the relays disconnected, I STILL get a spike on unkey that pins the S meter. What does your S-meter do when you unkey on AM???

I found that when I unkey and hear that sweeping racket in the RX, it's Penny locked up and sweeping the band. I pulled off its coax and the noise dropped way down, so it's Penny that stays keyed up and goes into a weird fuzz on the scope.  It gets ativated like that from the spike I think.

What ya think?

Rob,
I'm running 25% in the TX tab. I set the drive slider to maximum then go into the gain tab (which I don't think you have) and adjust the gain for maximum power in CW. There was an assembly error in a number of exciter boards when the output transformer was mounted in step down rather than step up. So I have 1.5 to 1 rather than 1 to 1.5. So now I'm at 1/2 output voltage or 1/4 power. I should get almost a watt out on 75 but actually only get 25 dBM less than 1/2 watt. I have to put 16 db of attenuation ahead of my MRI final so there is no motivation to increase the power. I was glad to see the ALC working fine today. I would parallel R14 on penny if I needed more ALC action.
I was getting under 150% modulation but had it a lot higher at one point.
I need to find out what is on the display during TX. The only connection to Mercury is relay leakage.

I hope you have a load on penny when you do this. The output stage might oscillate if it sees an open. NEVER STORT THE OUTPUT or good bye fianls.
Try doing it with the output set very low. Think about what is going on. Turn off TX the 13 volt cuttent drops a lot maybe setting up a transient in LPU. How about a big cap on 13 volts input to lpu? I would get rid of that thing.
The output stage is class A so if it still happens at low RF it could be a dc power issue.
I have no issues going from TX to RX

We posted at the same time . Yes, I willl add a big 13V cap there.

I checked the monitor function and it works FB on ssb. But has the delay, of course.  That IS a problem for monitoring. I guess the Flex crowd lives with it.

I just disconnected Pin 13, the Penny output that was driving the relay to gnd. I connected the relay to the input keying instead. That seems to have solved the feedback problem I had. I gots to get a linear supply and get rid of that LHU switcher crap and use twisted leads as you say.

Right now the only keying interface I have to Penny is a set of isolated contacts keying pin 1 to ground. Do I still need the optical isolation or are these contacts OK?

T

Again, what does your S meter do from transmit AM carrier to RX? Does it stay at the bottom of the meter or jump up to some value??

BTW, a 20,000 uf cap at the 13.8V input to the LHU helped somewhat. Seems more stable and there are no lock ups anymore. Tnx for the hot tip, OM.

Tom,
I don't have any issues going from TX to RX and never noticed the S meter take off. I'll check the next time I have it on. Your PTT input on a set of contacts should be fine as long as nothing else shares the contacts. The input to penny has an RC filter and diode protection. Sounds like you had a sequence problem.

I can key the boards using the mouse MOX on the software - with the boards disconnected from everything and the s meter still jumps up to full scale on unkey.

T

Frank:  Correct, there is no gain tab in the Flex version of PSDR. The AM carrier setting is interesting and I have run into guys running a very low percentage such as yourself. The potential is there for massive positive peaks. I found that the 60% - 75% range allowed me to easily and cleanly reach 150% positive peaks on the scope. If I go much higher, some receivers don't take kindly to it. Whatever you are doing, it sounded very clean today on AM with smooth and very well balanced audio. I believe you are using an electret, which is my choice as well.

Tom:  There is definitely latency when you monitor your audio in sideband through PSDR. The length of the delay can be minimized by lowering the TX buffer size at the sacrifice of filter sharpness. Regardless of processor speed, motherboard bus speed, interface speed, and PSDR buffer settings, there will always be latency due to all the audio processing that is taking place in real-time. I only use the PSDR monitor while setting up a new profile as I transmit into a dummy load. The audio lag is typically just enough to seem like an echo as I speak but it's still a good indicator of what the transmitted audio sounds like. There's no way I could carry on a conversation on the air with someone while listening to that. You can often tell when someone is monitoring themselves with a Flex in a QSO as they lose their train of thought and stumble while they speak due to the disconcerting latency. It takes the smugness out of their voices...

OK on the delay, Rob.   Well, I consider monitoring important to me for knowing instantly if we have a problem and also old DJ habits are tough to break.  The delay really is hard to deal with. Yes, you can hear it on the air when guys use it... ;D

With this new lashup I still have the computer dropping out when at 50% CPU, when viewing the panadapter. I'm not in the mood to buy a new computer at the moment - big waste of $$. The two I have now are FB as-is.

Bottom line is it appears this rig will not be my main rig. It has its advantages and several disadvantages. I still don't know how it will hold up under QRO conditions. I may end up using it as a self-contained fun QRP rig and as a spectrum analyzer for testing.  I may go back to the FT-1000D, E-rig and 4X1 rigs and put this rig and computer next to my desk on the other side of the room as studio B, QRP.

I learned a lot and now have a spec analyzer, the main goal, for $550. Can't complain. Maybe in a few years when the SDR rigs are self contained, a generation or two past this technology,  with no external computer, I will take the plunge and get one as a main rig.

[fade to black]

More to come...

T

Have you run the little "DPC Latency Checker" utility to measure your system's ability to handle real-time SDR streaming and processing? It's a tiny executable that needs no install, you just run it. It evaluates how your system responds to delayed procedure calls as services and hardware make demands on the OS. Run if for a minute or two while you have PSDR doing its thing and it will tell you if your system is up to the task.

http://www.thesycon.de/dpclat/dpclat.exe

I sent Tom the link to run it from HPSDR Yesterday. I should run it also just to know where I stand. I think changing priority may have been my problem with mouse and keyboard locking up.

Tom,
I run hot and cold with HPSDR. I agree a very good test tool. Sometimes I don't feel like running the computer. I find most of the time I have the Mercury receiver running in parallel with the Racal. The KAZ system is usually on the HPSDR. Interesting that I have good front to back between the two antennas when I monitor myself with a scope. Maybe 10 dB with the dipole 100 feet away.

Thanks for the test link Rob. Yes, I'll run it today and see what it sez.  BTW, that was a cool recording you did yesterday of the 11mW PW signal here. Gawd it was PW!  It's funny to think that if I went from 11mW to only 110 mW it wud come up 10db. And from 110mW to about a watt it wud increase another 10db... :-)


Frank - I still have some energy left in me today to try a few more things with the rig. I will add in the twisted power supply leads for the 12V and 5V that goes to the Atlas backplane.  However, I think I may have damaged Penny with of the relay it keyed. I wish there were warnings on the website about that. It said "60V, 100ma" capability, but nothing about inductive loads. It was a small 12v RS relay I used with a diode across it. The problem now seems that Penny is very noisy on unkey causing that spike and also will very occassionally lock into a freq sweeping mode when unkeyed, requiring me to shut off the power and reboot. 

I hear this spike even when all the connectors are off and I MOX key it with the mouse. I didn't remember this spike before I hooked up that little 12V relay... sigh.  Now I have no relay keyed by Penny and it works most of the time except for the spike on unkey. 

T

put your scope on 13 and 12 volt supplies. Switch to ac coupling on scope vertical input. Look for a transient on each voltage when you unkey. AC coupling allows you to set the scope at 1 volt and still have the trace on the screen. This sounds like a power supply issue. You might reload firmware as a last resort.
make sure you have a 50 ohm load on the output.
I have never seen this sweeping mode you talk about.

BTW those little driver chips are pretty tuff. We have been using them for almost 30 years. I notice you don't have a ground return between LPU and Atlas so current must be going through the chassis. That is NG.

Yes, I have a PS gnd wire between the LHU and Atlas. Unless you are thinking of something else.  Are you talking about an additional gnd strap? There's three leads connected - one for 12V, one for 5V and one for gnd return.  I'll replace that with twited pairs today anyway.

I'll check the PS with the scope on AC and magnified up. Yes, maybe firmware too.  I sent a msg to both Phil and Joe about it to see what they think too.  Gads, a bad Penny wud be a deal breaker for me. I need another Merc anyway and this wud push the cost up, esp if I had to get a new computer. Flex 5K-price city.

I was really impressed by the opposite sideband suppression. I had the lows going down to 0hz and the opp was quiet. Mormally an FT-1oooD type filter rig wud make S9 rumbles.  The TX skirts are unreal. Yes, the SDR had its advantages.

Just dug of the generator. That snow was 4' in places like an iceberg. Never seen it so deep. Just imagine another 10" with ice.

BTW, when keying the pin 1 of Penny with contacts, they say to use "ground".  Then they list a pin for digital ground and audio ground. Which ground do I use with pin1?  I ended up using chassis ground cuz it didn't work with digital gnd at all.  Hope that didn't hurt something when I tried it.

T

You should have 4 leads. 5, +12, -12 and ground. Ozy needs -12.
PTT referenced to D ground
I think you should have mounted LPU the way it was designed to interface.
The computer power plug is fine. I never had any problems when I used it.

My showblower shoot is all the way up so I'm hoping for rain

Yes, just checked and I have four leads there. I forgot about the -12V.

Later I will erase and load the firmware again.    If I can't find the problem I'll stop by and we can plug these boards into your Atlas and maybe screw yours up too... ;D

T

The only common thing between Penny and Mercury is the power supply and Atlas data bus. Try plugging penny into a different slot.

Tom go into set up and change your clock source and see what happens. If you are using
Ppenny change to Mercury

When you think about everything that's going on as SDR rigs are keyed and un-keyed it's not surprising that issues like this come up. There are complaints from some Flex users about this as well with certain versions of PowerSDR. Issues with leading edge spikes while driving solid-state power amplifiers have been mentioned, along with complaints of loud noise bursts appearing when transitioning from transmit to receive. My current version of PSDR is not exhibiting either of those behaviors, but the un-keying issue was a problem for me with an early beta version. I wonder if what you are seeing is related to the version of PSDR the HPSDR guys used?

Here is another short audio sample showing the pileup you created yesterday when you asked if anyone was copying your little 10mw signal. Think how much stronger you would have been if you had used your modified Radio Shack "ARCHER Space Patrol" walkie talkie that ran 10 times the power!

You know Tom you are using a different power sdr program from Joe. Maybe Rob hit on something. Maybe you should ask him. I looked at penny schematic and can't find anything common to both boards.

Frank,

I tried swapping the boards around yesterday - no change. I was trying to eliminate the Atlas board.  I also tried the different clocks and no change either. Still have that unkey spike.

Rob, that's a cool recording. You can certainly hear the difference between 10mW and the guys coming back who were QRO at 1-5 watts..  ;D

I'm glad you mentioned others were having PTT spikes too. Maybe it's the new diversity PSDR version. I will reload an older version if these newest fixes don't help.  I just added twisted power supply pairs, though that will probably not solve it. But also reloading the Penny firmware now. Then will look at the PS for spikes on the scope.

BTW, I was running some tests last night looking at cleanliness. I found it real easy to overdrive the audio and produce peak crud. Listen on a RX to the opposite sideband on ssb and when the crud starts, the opp will show it first.  There needs to be some kind of limiting there, though maybe the line input will help tame it down. So far the line .bat files did NOT work to change it from mic in to line in. I mentioned this to Phil and we'll see if he gives it another go.


Thanks for the additional info.

T

Your observations are right on the mark. Opposite sideband suppression with SDR platforms can be outstanding, but there is enough latitude in the user settings that it can also be horrendous. If gain distribution throughout the software audio chain is set correctly (never crossing the 0 dB point in PSDR) it should run very cleanly. Unfortunately, in an attempt to sound loud, you will hear stations pounding the audio and generating tons of artifacts.  Another setting that is problematic is the TX buffer size. If it's too small you will enjoy low latency, but the trade-off will be much looser filter edges and ingress into the opposite sideband along with a tendency to suffer from audio dropouts. So... when you couple over-driven audio stages along with poor buffer settings and then add in a DSP filter with a low frequency TX cutoff of "0" it's a recipe for horrific transmitter performance.

Tune around and you will see quite a few of those signals...

Well, I tried all the changes including new firmware and still have the spike. I will try new PSDR next.

New info: On AM,  I listened to the PTT unkey  on a RX and hear a short beep up 2kc from the carrier freq.  If I am on 3800, then when I unkey I hear a short carrier beep on 3802.  It's like an offset for 1/2 second that is about the same strength as the carrier. Its strength goes up or down with drive, just like the carrier.

On ssb I don't hear it, but will try some audio in and I bet it's there.

It causes a slight splatter up 3-4 kc on unkey and seems to have a fast attack.

This seems software related from sequencing and an offset generated. It does not appear to be what I thought, which was some kind of transient that wud have a harsh arcing sound. This is a clear CW note.


It sounds exactly like a roger beep, but up 2kc from center freq! I will try new PSDR from the site and see.

Hmmmm. I hope its not related to computer latency.. or maybe I do.
T

More info:

Ran the latency program and it said I may have some drivers that are behaving badly - to disable them one at a time.  Will try that.

Also found the spike is there whether the CPU is at 12% or 78%, no effect. So guess the spike is not caused by latency.

I do not hear a beep on ssb with audio tone going in, just a pop from the spike. On AM it's a roger beep.

T

a question for those in the know:

is latency LESS of an issue with machines running unix/linux ?

Peter

It depends on whether you're running background processes or the machine is running background processes.

Tom,
I just don't know because I'm still using the mouse to key the rig. I think you have a Joe version of mercury so not sure if that is an issue. I'm running the same penny software as you. My guess is the rig isn't broken. Also I find the internal audio processing pretty good if you want to try some addioional compression. I have beads on audio lead and usb lead.
My EQ is set to minimum on the main slider with mic gain at 10. Compression at 13. Direct mic into rig. BTW guys I had SSB minimum frequency at 0 so may change that. Rob didn't complain so didn't change it. 

Peter: 

I'm not sure that I qualify as someone in the know, but a few variations of this question have appeared in the Flex reflectors. The responses from several Flex representatives indicated that no matter how fast the computer is, or how lean the OS is, there will always be latency due to the digital processing taking place in "real time". There's a lot of signal processing going on throughout the transmitter chain. With the hardware currently available many users would probably not find it objectionable. On my 6 year-old PC it is definitely there when I monitor my signal and various DPC latency utilities indicate that it's in the 100ms - 200ms range. Most of the latency complaints seem to be coming from the CW guys who work break-in rather than the phone operators who want to monitor themselves.

Frank:  I didn't see any energy at all in the opposite sideband when we were messing around on 3870. Your signal looked very clean.

Rob W1AEX  

Rob, is yours a single core?   What CPU % does it run at when the waterfall is on?

Excuse me if my terminology is not correct, but I think much of the problem is that PSDR needs to run under an OS, namely, Windows. For example, I have a telescope tracking program that controls stepper motors. It can run flawlessly under DOS with an old 386 computer without a stutter. But when using a new Pentium running under Windows, the steppers miss steps and stagger/false  terribly. Thus, the designer recommends to find an older computer that will run DOS.  Windows is a CPU task hog.

BTW, this same telescope programmer has a second product that does away with the stepper control and uses stand-alone servo motors that then take their positions  from a Windows based astro sky program. Works fine under Windows cuz it doesn't need constant real time tasking.  As long as the software doesn't need real time or close to real time interuptions, it's fine with Windows.  

That's why I think the day will come when we do away with the computer for intensive calculation threads and rely more on a self contained set of chips. The computer could be used for more lax data management and screen interfacing.

T

Yes, it is a single core Pentium 4 (3.0g) with 1 gig of ram. It will typically run between 18% - 24% when PowerSDR is reduced to its smallest screen size. If I stretch PowerSDR all the way across the screen then CPU utilization will climb into the 30% - 40% range. The size of the spectrum display has a major impact on how hard the computer has to work to draw the fast-changing graphics.

The attached picture shows my CPU utilization, and also shows a really ratty signal in the spectrum display. Pretty nasty looking sideband suppression eh? The vertical lines in the spectrum display represent 1 kc per division so when you do the math it looks like 7 kc on lower side and 5 kc on the upper side for a whopping 12 kc single sideband signal!

Yay!  One down with one to go...

Looks like Rob was correct.  I downloaded the KD5TDF PSDR and the CPU is at 20% with the band scope running. No stutters.   My computer is just too slow to handle the diversity. Joe says the KD5 uses less threads running together so is better for my single core for now.  

Either way, I will need a 4-core in a few weeks when I add the 2nd Merc receiver.

However, the spike is still there. Still working on that.

T

Tom,
I was just looking at the Metis manual and they say you can send PTT into OZY and Metis duplicated the function. Also your keyer goes directly into ozy. Maybe that is worth a try. Maybe the data bus is better set up if PTT goes into the hub rather than the arm. There may be a timing issue. You might ask further up the food chain.

Tom,
I have not upgraded power sdr in a while. what version is it and where did you get it? I think I have the latest svn download but have not tried it yet.
I need to study metis manual to see how much work it will be to integrate.
I'm not going to make any changes until I see what I need to do to integrate the new board.

Frank:

Create a folder and dump this into it via SVN. It was just updated on Jan 29th?.  KD5TFD. You may see your CPU use go down, though I like Joe's screen skin much better.

svn://184.81.173.3/svn/repos_sdr_windows/PowerSDR/branches/kd5tfd/PennyMerge



Just talked with Phil. He said another VK is working on the line in .bat. He said they forgot to include a gain block command, so shud be available shortly.

I am going to reload the stock Merc firmware, since I don't need diversity firmware until later. They both work, but the KD5 software may like stock better.

I will look into keying OZY.  Both Phil and Joe said they do NOT have that roger beep up 2kc on AM.  Joe said he has s meter spikes and Phil said he did not.  I have no spike issue on ssb, just AM.

T

I would suggest buying the computer piece-meal rather then from one of the major vendors that pre-installs Windows and a ton of other stuff that you don't need.  Some of it always runs in the background, eats up memory, and can increase CPU usage, latency, spikes, burbs, etc. With Tast Manager, you can see all the processes that are running in the background. Sometimes you can tell what they are; others have non-descriptor file names and descriptions.

Tom,
Just downloaded it a couple days ago so I have it. I'm going to read metis manual before I make any changes so I only have to do it once.
I'm sure there will be a couple bugs to fix but this thing should scream and I have the power supply to go full bore.
I'm sure Joe likes your feedback but it could take a while to sort things out. There were many times when software was released just to find some users having communication problems. they get sorted out but the guys writing the code tend to have newer machines so they don't see problems until firmware is distributed.

Thanks for the tips, Pete.  I'll look around and see what's out there.  I will definately need a 4-core for diversity later on.

With stock Mercury firmware installed and the stock KD5TFD PSDR, the CPU is now down at 10-15% !! whether the pan adp is on or not. Looks like the Merc firmware used up maybe another 10% when the pan was on before with the diversity.  The diversity software took another 30% when the pan was on. So I will look for a 4-core later on.. :-)

FINALLY, I have a working rig! But I can still see the spike on the panadapter on AM only. It is 2kc up and about 1/2 the size of the carrier.  Still not sure what's causing that. I'll try Frank's OZY key idea and then I'm out of ideas. I've now changed all firmware for both boards and have new version PSDR installed. Swapped boards around and tried all the toggles in software. The other guys sometimes see the S meter spike but not the roger beep. Imagine that - a build in roger beep that won't go away, CAW MAWN.

T

Check this out. Was just posted by a member on the Flex reflector. Claims CPU usage 1-3 %. Running it with SDR-1000.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7108906&CatId=3508#
You'll also need keyboard, mouse, OS

Nice looking machine. I would make sure to get a bit of extra ram.
The bus speed is key. These new ram chips scream. Good price also.

Wow - good to know that kind of performance is out there at a reasonable price. I will probably get one later on.


Frank, I jacked up the audio sampling to 92K and 2K buffer - the CPU is now at about 14-22% MAX with the pan adapter on. Happy camper with that, being a single core machine.

The spike problem - I'm starting to think I got clipped with a bad board. If you look back at my first post in this thread, you will see one ESD bag sticker ripped open. It was sold to me as a used board. The others were unopened.  Bet some gorilla man-handled it. I'm running out of ideas to fix it.  Got a few more and that's it.  Other than that the rig is working FB, OM.

T

Well, I just sent you the "line in" L & R connections use analog ground as the shield termination. I guess nobody uses it so Phil may have forgot it was there. I'm thinking the DSP is the issue. You might monitor line out to see if the DSP is generating a transient.
What is the input voltage into LPU.
It should be a couple volts above 12 volts so there is some head room for the 12 volt regulator to work. Can you set the power supply to 14 volts. if you put a bridge in series with the power leads you just lost 1.3 volts of headroom. I prefer a big diode across the line to blow a series fuse. The 12 volt regulator will see a transient when you key and unkey due to load on the supply changing. The output amplifier is class A so it may draw a couple watts. The TX chain is DSP input to do audio processing and conversion to digital. Then into the FPGA to do digital up conversion. The FPGA drives the output D/A to generate the waveform. Then the output amplifier. Since the signal is clean on TX the D/A is good. Since the output is on the right frequency the fPGA must be good. (they usually die hard when they die) The only thing left is the DSP and power supply. There are some internal voltage regulators that could be an issue but they would also be a problem during TX.
I bet your problem is power supply related. It appears you are generating some sort of weird modulation when you unkey and it gets through the whole chain. Try hooking penny directly to an antenna with no relays and listen to the signal as you try different things. Put the FT1000 on another antenna to monitor yourself.

Frank,

Good idea about the line in on the 25 pin. No one on the list saw that. I'll try it next.  I hope that I can use chassis ground into the audio ground input, right?

On the spike:  I checked all the board jumpers against the manual and they were correct.   I then looked at the 13V input and see it is at 14.1v and holds steady during PTT keying.  On the scope it has a slight bounce of a few millivolts on key up/dn.

The outputs of the -12, +12 and 5V regs are rock solid on the scope with the AC coupling on and sensitivity turned way up. I can see a little hash on the -12V as expected. So the supplies seem stable.

I did notice that when I first power the rig up that the pulse is either not there or weaker on the first key/unkey. But on the next ones it is back to every time and strong.

I hooked the Penny directly to the dummyload, no relays, and listened in on the FT-1000D - the pulse is loud and clear up 2kc.

On the waterfall display, I can see it after the normal carrier goes by. It looks very narrow.

I see it on all bands. The computer latency has no effect after trying tests.

I'm running out of ideas to try...  sigh

T

my guess the DSP is generating a transient. You are welcome to borrow my HD power supply breadboard I used before Pandora came out.

Tom and I spent an hour last night running tests on our HPSDR rigs. I confirm the roger beep on unkey but my rig the transient is at least 90 dB down and very short. He has a higher level. Even at 40 dB down that is 1/10 of a watt at 1 KW out. I suspect there is a register house keeping issue on unkey.
He was concerned that the S meter flies way up on unkey. In reality there is no RF connection between mercury and penny so again a register issue.
Tom will report that minor bug to the Borg.

Now for the big one that all Flex and Softrock users should be aware of.
Never shut down Power SDR by Xing out. Always hit the stop button first.
As P SDR shuts down a file is updated and saved. When you just X out random data gets stored so the next time you power up P SDR could do weird things. Tom was getting into some strange conditions of no transmitt and stuck in transmitt.
I learned this the hard way when I would have a locked up P SDR on power up and would need to reload the program. This appears to be Tom's biggest issue. I also got into trouble having too many versions of Power SDR loaded on my machine.

OK on the old version of software causing interaction problems.  I always clean out the old PSDR versions as I load new ones. But they do not have uninstall routines, so who knows what dingleberries are hanging on by doing a simple delete file.

Yes, the keying spike/transcient  problem appears to be in software timing. I was glad to see Frank's rig had it, though to a lesser degree.  I posted about it on the HPSDR board and a couple guys are checking it out.

As is, I can probably live with the unkey spike. My big concern was damage to Mercury RX and Penny losing its mind. But as you said Frank, maybe my "Xing" out of PSDR caused the lock problems later. And the spike is down about -30db on my rig, so that's not as bad as I thought.

I think the bottom line is I can be a perfectionist when it comes to shaking down new rigs. Most guys wouldn't give the spikes a second thought. But after years of experience with sequencing big rigs and seeing the damage they can do when not working perfectly, I usually push on to cure them.

Frank, I will reload PSDR today and see if it smooths out.  BTW, Gerd thinks it's softwware too and axed me to run a few simple tests for him.

Also, the line in .bat file is working - Phil sent it to me to try.  Said it works at around 2V audio in, no problem.

Tnx for the help last night, OM.  Maybe we can get on and do some chatting HPSDR to HPSDR over the next day or two.

T

Tom,
Remember there is no RF connection between Penny and Mercury so the S meter thing is just another sw hack. It does not hurt anything. The beep is just a dirty register somewhere. I bet in the DSP. These guys are usually quick to fix issues when they are pointed out. Glad you got the line level thing working. Looks like softwsare releases in th efuture.
I wonder if you saw the response to my loading firmware question using metis. No more big file just to move data. Metis firmware takes care of downloads. So the only issue is the jtag. Bummer they could controlled in with firmware so you don't have to remove boards and swap them around.
I have not updated anything since last spring so not that big a deal. i bet there will be a rash of them when diversity is released.

There shouldn't be any issues with multiple versions of PowerSDR software on your machine since each one is loaded into a separate directory. I have five different versions of PowerSDR on my machine and there are no issues with that. The big issue is having multiple Firewire or USB drivers still resident and active on your machine or using firmware that isn't compatible with the version of PowerSDR that you are using.

And, yes, it has always been recommended that PowerSDR not be shut down by simply "X'ing" out the program.

Some of the guys on the HPSDR forum wanted to take a look at the screen shots and layout to evaluate what's happening with the spike and locked spurious TX problems.



THESE SHOTS ARE FOR DIAGNOSIS of the SPIKE/Transcient Penny problem on PTT UNKEY. Using Penny, Mercury, Ozy, Atlas, KD5TFD PSDR and current firmware off the HPSDR site:


Pic 1: Normal AM signal on transmit

Pic 2: The UNKEY SPIKE (to right of red line at ~ 3805 kc, middle right on screen, with a spike peak at about -68dbm. I snapped it before it reached maximum height at about -40dbm.)

Pic 3:  The spurious images up and down the band when Penny locks up from unkeying spike. Cannot stop it until power is turned off. Software has no control.  PTT is unkeyed at this time as shown by DBM meter and "ADC Overload" message from Mercury.

More below

Current Rig Layout for evaluation:


Penny is keyed via #1 pin on 25 pin socket.  

I added 20,000 ufd at the 13.8v input to the LHU regulator board.  The various voltage outputs appear stable with no bounce on keyup and keydown when viewed under high scope magnification.

T

Very strange that in the third picture of the sequence PSDR is in LSB mode rather than AM or SAM. When it's locking up due to the un-keying pulse is it also jumping modes?

Hi Rob -

No it was already in the LSB mode. That was the first time I saw it take off in LSB cuz AM or FM usually has bigger spikes under unkey due to the carrier I think.

So far, by moving the db gain per band to about 42, I haven't had it take off in spurious again. Though the spike is still there.  I'm trying a few new tests as the HPSDR guys are offering them.   Wish I had a new board to swap in... :-)

BTW, the antennas are loaded pretty heavily with ice, but nothing broke yet. How you doing 25 miles north?

T

Tom, I have never seen anything like that on my set up. I wonder if you deleted Power SDR and reloaded it fresh since you Xed out so many times.
Something is latching up power SDR to force it into a different mode and stuck in TX. HPSDR is just a slave so control comes from power SDR.

Do you have a load on the TX and is the cable any good? Try putting a cap across the PTT input to ground say .1 uf. maybe you are getting contact bounce.

You could have a solder short on Atlas. Odd you see A/D overload in TX

Yah, it would be nice to be able to easily isolate if it is hardware or software. I have to agree with Frank that PSDR may be the biggest suspect here. There have been enough complaints about the "sloppy" transition from TX to RX with the Flex users that it makes you wonder. Some installations never experience it, but there are enough who do that it's an acknowledged problem.

The first link below at the FlexEdge reflector is one example. Note the comment by Tim Elision indicating that Flex is dinking around with the transition to improve the turn-around time from TX to RX. (Note: He is referring to the Quadrature Sampling Detector when he mentions QSD.)

"The noise (I call it a thurp, a combination of a thump ad a chirp) is a
consequence of keeping the QSD on while transmitting.  This was done to
decrease TX->RX transition times.  They are still working on it to make it
better."

One user mentions that adjusting the Phone RX buffer changes the behavior. Might be worth checking that out.

http://www.mail-archive.com/flexedge@flex-radio.biz/msg00717.html

Another thread here about sloppy TX/RX:

http://www.mail-archive.com/flexedge@flex-radio.biz/msg01957.html

The thread below talks about this issue emerging again with the latest beta version 2.0.16:

http://www.mail-archive.com/flexedge@flex-radio.biz/msg04947.html

I haven't read about anything as severe as what you are seeing, but it might be worth trying a variety of PSDR versions that the HPSDR guys are offering. As Pete CWA mentioned, there is no issue at all with multiple versions co-existing. I have 8 or 9 installed at last count, and as he said, they hold all their data in their own directories.

We lucked out here and the ice did not arrive! Just 6 inches of wet and heavy snow. I'm hoping the new ropes and wire on my antennas will hold up!

:O)

Frank,

Yes, I have changed out PSDR many times. I did it twice tonight. It seems when I stop the program and exit via the X, I load it back and my power output is way down and the receive box is always checked "receive only".  Sometimes the audio is way low and will not adjust back up.  I then reload new PSDR thru SVN and it works normally again.  I am definately hitting "stop" before exiting.  I think that spike may be corrupting the software, but that's hard to believe. In fact, my audio external EQ lost it's mind and had weird digits showing until I reset it. I never saw so much spike effects from such a little PW box.

With the PA set above 40db, the spurious doesn't happen now.   The mode does not change - I already had it in LSB for that screen shot above.

The ADC overload is when Penny is locked on without being keyed. It is stuck in TX and Merc is receiving at the same time.  It seems to happen when Penny is set at 38db gain.

I will try some caps across the relays, however, the problem spike occurs with no cables attached, no relays clicking, just the mox mouse.

 Rob, that's interesting info on the T/R transistion. If Flex is hearing a thurp, then it must be a problem for some. That's what I hear - a thurp   and a backlash on unkey.  At least Penny is not taking off when set higher. Frank, you saw the post about keeping your final set about 41.5 or so, right?

T

Why do you check receive only when you have Penny?
I will check my set up tonight
The transient does nothing to my Software. I did not see the post about adjusting the gain to kill the transient. I'll give it a try but I'm almost 100 dB down so non event.

What I mean is I always manually uncheck "RX only" when using the rig, of course.  But when I hit "stop" and exit then I reboot back into the PSDR later, it is always checked. The program is not saving the file for some reason.

This is software related, but I don't see anyone else mentioning it, so it must be my computer.


*** BTW, Gerd in Germany found the same spike on one of his Penny boards. I sent you a pic of it, Frank. It's .BMP, so can't post it here.  He's looking into it.



T

Tom,
Do you have another computer that you could load PSDR into?
It sounds like you are not saving set up information. Let me look at my set up to see if there is a save button that needs to be pressed for RX. Rob showed me the one in the TX page for audio settings. Go to the main HPSDR page where you install mercury and penny with the clock source. See if there is any additional buttons you need to press to save the set up. My Version of PSDR is 1.10 SVN XXXX so goes back a way. I'll give you a call tonight if I find anything. I think we went through all the set up stuff so I'm at a loss. We have the same settings but your P SDR may be newer.

Tom, I had MacaFeece anti hiv on my shack computer for a while. It drove P SDR crazy. I removed it and don't put the machine on the net. Do you have any anti hiv software in that machine?

I have Avast in their and deactivate it sometimes. Trouble is I do use the computer on the web sometimes for HPSDR related stuff right now. Later on I will disable it when the rig is running right.  Yes, that could be some of the cause, no doubt.  

BTW, It appears that Penny's locked up spurious thing happens only when the PA db is set at 38db. When set higher (42DB) it doesn't occur at all. Little by little ironing out the bugs.  Now if Gerd finds the spike issue, I'll be all set for now.


I'm looking at the SS linears here now.   It wud be nice to run the CCI dual amps at say, 40w out. Maybe that wud keep them clean in class A.  I don't need much drive for the Dr Love chain on ssb or AM.


T

I think the erb amps are cleaner since they have a much better transformer design that will work on 6 meters.. Maybe the CCI amps will be ok at lower voltage say 28 VDC I'm not sure you could get 40 watts with 1 stage of gain.
Erb will easily give you clean 40 watts. Just need to attenuate the input.
I bet you could eliminate the first stage and feed .5 watts PEP into the driver but it would take some transformer design to match the new input. 
I only download HPSDR stuff with the computer when I have to. Otherwise the network cable is disconnected. Metis will be the new interface to that connector.

Well Tom,
Looks like you set the collective in motion based on all the email traffic.
We have not had a good bug in a while. Watch, one of these guys will solve the problem with the spike quickly. Interesting on the gain thing. Maybe I don't see the problem since my output transformer is backwards

I'll have to see if your Metis does anything better with the current boards.

Hey, just took the Erb solid state amp out of moth balls. Using a linear power supply with 0-35V, I found that at about 20V and using 0.3 p-p volts of drive (0 dbm) I am getting out  50W.  I set the bias so that the finals and driver idle warm.  Thats about 1.8 mW of drive, if my calcs are right.    I have 50V peak-peak out into 50 ohms. (50W)

So that's about 43db of gain.    Not bad.  I will definately need an attenuator for the HPSDR which is capable of 400 mW.

Do these figures look right for the ERB?

I do have one MRF-150 that is running hotter than the other. Maybe it's not seated right on the heatsink. If I can get that one cooler, I can run them both up idle some more. But looks like a winner and I will use it.  It looks like Erb will not need a fan. I had it running at 50W out for 30 miinutes and the sink is barely warm.

T

T

Tom 50 watts is 50 volts RMS so you need to multiply thaty by 2.8 so you really need 140 volts peak to peak output. Run the whole strip ad 24 volts and you will easily get 100 watts PEP. Reducing the power to 50 watts will improve IMD. You will need to bias each MRF150 at 3 amps to get best IMD performance. Look up the motorola spec on the driver to get it class A.
I bet that will be a couple amps. The first stage is biased at class A running at 900 ma so you don't need to mess with it. So you are talking close to 9 amps bias to get best IMD performance. At 24 volts that is 216 watts of heat.
Even my heatsink with 750 square inches and a glob of 1/4 inch copper spreader I think I might blow a little air at it running class A. Those motorola heat sinks do not have enough surface area for that kind of power without blowing air past them. Yup over 40 dB of gain I agree. Running higher bias may increase gain. I was wondering about doing more RF feedback to reduce gain. I have not run any numbers yet though.

OK, sounds good. There shud be plenty of headroom cuz I only need 30W or so for the Dr. Love linear chain.


In general, which should give better IMD at maximum heat idle?

1) Running at 18V with higher idle current

2) Running at 24V with lower idle current

I wud idle setup each until they are at max heat.  


  
I will run some IMD tests later to see where the sweet spots are, but I don't think I could get 216 watts of steady state heat from that particular heat sink system. Though the sink is pretty good sized, with two 3/8" aluminum slabs and large fins below that.  But not as big as the CCI amp. I don't have a copper slab in there, so that's the limiting factor to quick heat transfer.

Gonna build a small 50 ohm  input RF attenuator for it today.  50 ohms to gnd, variable pot in series and 50 ohms to gnd.  What value shud the pot be to give about 30db attn max?

T

Tom,
I don't have any IMD curves for other voltages in front of me. Most MIL rigs ran 28 VDC on the final. I would think the higher voltage would be better because all the Motorola curves are at 50 volts.
The first stage is set up for 24 volts so run it there. 
I don't remember how I set up your bias maybe two pots. My erb I went with 4 pots and a master pot on the voltage regulator. At minimum R for the master I set all the 4 pots for
suggested current at class AB. The the master can increase the bias on all the pots to run them up higher.
Attenuator 200 ohms should get you close maybe even 1 k.
I'm running 16 dB of attenuation pads but your penny output transformer is right so might need a couple dB more.

Built up the adjustable input RF pad and got Erb running with HPSDR. Seems to work FB. However, the IMD is not any better than -32db or so. It's about the same as the FT-1000D.  I tried it barefoot, normalized the signal and the HPSDR is way way cleaner than when running the ERB.

I tried various VCC voltages on Erb and different idles. It seems the higher Erb idles, the better the IMD, of course, but I need to run the VCC down around 16V for best prerformance, otherwise it gets too hot.

I keeping playing with it to see what I can do.  But it IS a working system as-is and would pass the normal IMD tests.  I need more like -40db 3rd to reach the minimum goal of the cleaner Dr Love amp chain.

T

Yup, You need to run the bias up to get better IMD. I don't have any curves for low voltage operation so you are on your own. You need to make heat to make clean, no free lunch. Note as you lower the voltage the bias on the first stage goes down and could come out of class A.
There are two trim pots near the input stage FETs that set their bias. It wants to run at 900 ma both devices. There is a current sense resistor where you can monitor voltage to get current. check schematic.

Yes, I see those pots for the predriver.

Now that I have a clean -50db 3rd IMD exciter (HPSDR) I'm going to drive the Dr. Love linear chain with it and see just how clean those are. Before, I only had the -32db IMD FT-1000D exciter.  This will tell me if I am wasting my time with these low level stages or not.

Worst case is I cud build up a class A tube predriver.

T

Well, I tested the HPSDR into the Henry amp, which is modifed for 1500V and loaded heavily, giving about -45db 3rd.  It is definately about 10db cleaner than the Erb amp.

I tried more Erb tests but find it is cleanest at lower voltage but more current.  I realize the MRF-150's want to run at 48V and more heat to be cleaner. 

All I need is about 30 CLEAN watts to drive the tube amp.  The Erb seems like a lot of trouble to sink more heat, so I may look into building a simple two stage tube amp with negative RF feedback.  Not sure what to use for tubes at this point, but I've seen the 6146 driven by  a 12BY7? using neg feedback that has worked well.  Or maybe a 6146 driving an 813 in class A?  I dunno.

The Erb wud be good  as-is for low power and normal use, but the Dr. Love chain is cleaner and deserves better.

BTW, I had a couple of Penny lock ups into the amps. I added a 50 ohm resistor across the Penny output and this seems to have stabilized it. I think the spike shock was setting off the instability of a less than perfect load into the amps. As Penny unkeyed, she went crazy w/o the external load.

T

I told you the attenuator was a pi with two 50 ohm resistors to ground. The pot is the top element series. Both penny ad erb want to see 50 ohms. At 16 volts the first stage may be coming out of class A. Why would you want all that tube BS when a simple BB amp will do the job 160 through 6M with one power supply.
You just need to do the heat sink right which seems a lot easier than designing a tube driver that will be a lot more work. How many man hours do you think it will take to make it work 160 through 6. The tube will need to be close to class A to give you better than -40 dB IP3 so pick your heat source.
A push pull stage is a lot easier to make clean.

"I told you the attenuator was a pi with two 50 ohm resistors to ground."

Yes, that's what I built.

Oh I see...  I had the pad in the linear amplifier after the relay so the receiver would not be affected. During unkey it was out of circuit. I should have put it into the HPSDR cabinet right on the output of Penny's RF out so it's always there.   Well, I added the 50 ohm resistor there so we're all set for now.  I may not be using Erb anyway.

I dunno. I think these SS amps need some additional serious negative feedback.  Plus,  running class A is mucho heat sinking - not easy to implement - and maybe tubes are easier to cool.  Even running a small signal thru the SS amp, that can be considered class A, is not all that clean.  In contrast, my Henry is cleaner as well as Dr Love.     Maybe even a simple class A GG 813 driven by a class A 6550 in GG  (or whatever tubes are best for linearity) wud be stable, easier and work well.


T

Hey, I just came up with an idea that may work.

The FT-102 -  I have two left here:

"Third order IMD Better than -40dB (14MHz, 100W PEP) "
http://jvgavila.com/ft102_0.htm


Use the linear amp inside. Drop the power down to 30 watts out and it may clean up more. It's rated 160 w out.  I could put that unit on the table and have a smaller footprint than the exisiting SS amp and PS.  And see at least -40db 3rd.  It will accept a 10mW signal IIRC.

It also says:
"Negative feedback level Approx. -6dB at 14MHz "
Heck, why not increase that even more than -6db since there's extra gain available. I did that with a TMC amp once until I could barely drive it... :-)



I'll look into this and see how it works out.

The key here is they are doing this cleanliness with RF negative feedback, not class A operation.  I'll bet that Erb amp wud clean up really well with a good 10db wrapped around it. There's plenty of gain to work with, esp with those little chip pre-pre-rivers. Let me know if you know how to do it, Frank.  Maybe it's as easy as adding a single toroidal transformer from the output back to the predriver, out of phase.

T

If you have 50 ohms at penny and 50 ohms at the pad then the  penny is looking into 25 ohms. Take one of them out.
Each Erb stage has negative feedback. Too much phase shift over the frequency range to wrap it around all three stages. I've measured well above -32 dB IMD3 but never tried it with higher bias yet.
What is the current in the first stage at 16 volts you might be heading into class B land.
You will not improve imd until you bias the stages for low IMD and fix your thermal problem. Those FETs are very clean when biased properly, I would assume they needed to be clean for MRI service. The digital bias control keyed the bias on just before a pulse was generated to save power/heat.
I think Jay will agree with me that erb is designed very well.

I've brought the VCC up to 33 volts several times testing to be sure everything was idling hard. Set the bias pots until the driver and finals were warm to the touch.  Still, even with a smaller 10w out, it was not as clean as the FT-1000D.  I saw the same wid the CCI amp.  Sure it's acceptable for ham use, but I'm trying to go a step beyond that.

I've had poor luck with SS amps for cleanliness so gonna give the tube amps a go for now.  I have an old TMC 100mW in, 6CL6 > 6146 > 4CX-300 amp with neg feedback that says -40db 3rd in the manual. I might stick in a pair of 6146's in place of the 4CX's and have no blower noise. EZ 30w pep out, Add some more NFB and see how it plays.  No LP filters needed.

Either that or the FT-102, not sure yet.  I'm done with the SS amps for a week anyway.

T

Well, your choice is high Q tuned circuits or high conduction angle.

Back to testing the solid state Erb amp.

Had it on the bench running. After an hour of success, the thing suddenly flashed and took out the two finals and drivers while adjusting the bias. I put caps across the pots and will not adj bias on the fly anymore. The pre drivers are OK. Fragile stuff. 

I'm replacing them using FETs from the other Erb and CCI amp.  Got a fan going on it and a 24V supply for the predriver and a 40V supply for the driver/finals.  The MRF-148 appears well rated for 40V, right?  I see 125V rating IIRC.

I see the specs for MRF-150's , etc show -50db 3rd IMD, so worth another try.

T

Tom I think the high voltage (40) is only on the final but don't have the schematic in front of me. Anyway sounds like it took off on you.
I was looking at the erb and I think we can add more feedback around each stage pretty easily. Need to study it some more. Maybe we should add some temperature compensation on the bias. Just bolt a diode to the heat sink and put it in series with the bias pot on the ground end leg. As the diode heats up the junction voltage drops reducing the bias. Turn the pot down because it will offse the bias about .7V higher.

Gots it working again.

I can get out 150w when pushed at 45V VCC.  But I backed it off to 40V for tests.

When I idle the MRF-150's in maximum heat class A, the waveform looks FB up to 50w. But as I drive it into AB2, the waveform shows signs of compression/clipping on the peaks. It's the finals cuz I checked the driver and predriver and they look OK.

Does yours show this slight flattening of the peaks when it AB2?  It looks like saturation, though the amp will put out another 100w after the first clean class A 50 watts.  If I idle it harder, then I can get more clean watts out. For some reason it doesn't sem to like gate current in the finals.  The 24V and 40V power supplies are totally stiff with no drop at all from zero signal to full signal, even at 150w out during this compression effect.

I'll run some more tests and see how the IMD at 50w class A loooks now at 45V.

T

Nope, the Erb amp just ain't cutting it.  I drove it with the clean SDR. 

It's slightly better at higher voltage, but not much. I brought VCC up to 50V with a hot idle on the MRF-150's. The drivers are running very warm too. I can almost fry spit on them after 20 seconds.  Even at only 20W pep out, in full class A - stable drain current,  it's still is no better than -30db 3rd.  When I hit it harder, like for 75w AB2, it degrades down into the mid to low 20's.   The predriver is at 24V and the driver/finals at 40-50V. The driver at 24V doesn't change anything.

There's different Fets in there now, so I doubt there's a problem with them.

It's putting out the soup and is stable with no parasitics or trash. Just that it is rough around the edges.

To see another 20db 3rd IMD improvement would take something drastic to be changed I think.  No hotter idle will improve this as-is.

As a comparison, the barefoot SDR driver is so clean I can barely hear side products at all - like they're not there.  All measurements are normalized first at +40db over to prevent receiver overload..


Any other ideas to try?

T

Tom,
I was working on the transient and drop out problem tonight. Go into your set up  DSP tab and reduce the buffer size to 1024 for both RX and TX. Then go to the audio Tab Primary and reduce that buffer to 256. This seems to fix things and allows me to run at 192K sample rate. Horsepower went up to about 16% from 7%. I need to do more testing but this seems to work.
I wonder if the erb needs a low pass filter. I'm looking at adding more feedback but have not decided which way to go. I need to build up another power supply before I can get into that. I do remember looking at the gates of the finals and it seemed distorted compared to the driver. Maybe the transformer cores are saturating. I was thinking of rewinding them with two cores stacked at one point but Jay thought they were fine. I do agree with Jay that type 61 material was fine and I did not see much change when I swapped over to type 43. It looks like there is enough room for extra cores to lay flat on the board. Type 43 saturates easier than type 61 so that could be the reason it didn't change anything. I would rewind the transformers with twisted teflon wire

We could just use cores off dead erb boards. Do not use any predriver drain cores. They are type 43 material. We need to be careful with the maximum gate voltage rating on the MRF150s. We don't want to drive them into failure.
Do not try to pull more than 100 watts output at high bias.
Try 40 or 20 meters to see if the gate voltage looks better. This will tell us if the transformers are saturating on 75M. Maybe the inductance is a bit too low and stacking cores will fix that.

I played around with the buffers and yes, it does help the spike somewhat. But if I go to 256K I get drop outs.  I'll keep the DSP buffers about 500 and live with that.

I drove the FT-102 internal linear with the HPSDR. It uses three 6146's. I tapped into the pre-driver. It worked pretty well and was very clean. I estimate it was about -45db 3rd as the manual says. The side crud was about S5  compared to the Erb amp at S9+5.  The HPSDR alone is like S2.  

I was testing the Erb for about an hour and was working FB.  Then suddenly it stopped working. Looks like some gates opened up.   After seeing how good the tubes linear is, I'm going to go back to the TMC and continue working on that for now.  The Erb is too fragile for me to continue dicking around with it.  If you gets yours working super clean later on, I'll try again.

Update: Got the TMC working with a pair of class A1 6146's. VERY clean, even better than the FT-102 linear. Running AB1 requires the tubes to have no grid current, of course, thus the power out is low. I may have to replace the 6146's with a single grid driven class-A 813 to stay with those good IMD numbers.   Trying to get 30w out of a pair of 6146's starts to make garbage. 15-20 watts out pep seems the limit for -45db 3rd..  They will do 150W with heavy grid current, but IMD goes to hell.

T
T

Tom,
Try raising your screen voltage a bit to see if you can increase the power without grid current. Also might get away with raising plate voltage. Nothing like high Q tuned circuits.

If your numbers are correct, the FT-102 setup is 40 dB cleaner than the Erb setup. How much more do you need?  ;D

I've measured erb in the 30s but not all the way into class A.

Tom,

     I'm interested in this because I have a mostly hacked TS-830 with the pre driver, driver and final intact. Was going to use it for the N.E.P.W. net.

R.U. just using a decoupling cap and load on the interface or what?

I'm currently getting 5 watts carrier from the HP8640B/30L-1/30S-1 ! Going for the record. Most power wasted to make a QRP signal.

You know how non-linear those FT-1000D S-meters are in the lower ranges.. :-)  I would say the FT-102 "linear"  is maybe 18db cleaner than the Erb SS amp in real numbers. That's quite a bit, actually.

Over time, I've compared many amplifier’s relative IMD using a normalized S9 +40 over on the FT-1000D or FT-102.  When using the 2.8khz position on LSB, tune up the band 3.5khz and while talking into the mike with nasty yallos, take a reading. If it is S9, then it’s borderline and on the verge of bad reports. If it falls into the S7 range or lower, this is about as good as BIG AB2 amplifiers will be.  The SDR transmit IMD is way down, actually stellar, like hovering at S1 to S2, if that much.  The FT-102 “linear” and TMC NFB amp using modified 6146's falls into the S5-S7 range.   Another test is to switch the receiver to USB on freq. The garbage should be very muted and hard to understand. Bad IMD will show S9+ crud and easy to understand. (this also depends on the receiver's opp SB supp, too)

I ran some IMD two tone tests using the Mercury spec analyzer and was able to put rough numbers to this.

Bottom line is I've learned a lot playing with this stuff and find it to be difficult to create a complete chain from exciter to QRO and still maintain ~ -45db or better.  Once you HEAR the difference between -30 and -45db on the receiver, you neva go back!  ;D

Dave - I found the transistor just before the 12BY7 and tapped in with a series 150 ohms, then 50 ohms to ground and then .005 cap to the base. This required about 10mW for full output. You can go back one more stage if needed. Watch for the ALC action, since it might still be in the circuit, most likely.

I may take out the 6146's and put in a single 813 with 900 V plate, 300V reg screen and bias to make it class A. It will have heavy negative feedback.  All this just for ~40 watts CLEAN to drive the Dr. Love chain. Dr love chain already is -45db-ish, so had to get rid of the FT-1000D's -30db garbage.  Though, the FT-1000D seems maybe -40db 3rd when running at about 30w pep out.  So you will probably be OK, Steve, when you drive the new amp chain as we discussed.

Frank, you are right about the higher screen. I need to add another series reg to ramp it up for the 813. Since it must draw screen current, it is regulated.  I'm already at full plate  diss with the 6146's and see only 15w clean in class A1, thus the 813 is needed. [sigh]

T

Tom, The FT1000D at 40 over nine is generating internal IMD or your calibration is bogus

Tom how about a pair of 4D32s

Relativity is what counts.  Even with the big amp on (Dr. Love) I see only S7 crud up 3.5khz.  Why would the 1000D generate internal IMD with a short piece of wire off the back?   You need at least  40db over signal in order to hear the low level IMD.  Bottom line is many of my tube amps in the past had IMD problems as reported on the air and heard it also in my test receiver. They both confirmed. Now that I have verified Dr. Love to be clean in the receiver, I have gotten no bad reports. I also verified it with Steve's high-tech spec analyzer last year when he dropped by at about -38 to 40db 3rd.   I have improved the rig for better figures since. In addition, the Softrock using a computer 2-tone test showed the same thing.  My receiver measurements do show the difference between a good amp and a problem.

Bottom line is the CCI amp and the Erb amps SHOULD be acting cleaner, but they are not for whatever reason, I dunno why.  The data sheet specs say they shud be -50db 3rd using my parameters. You can try both lashups over there if ya want, but I doubt you have the time right now.. ;D


BTW, I decided to put the 4CX-150's back into the TMC and make it stock again. I will run reduced voltages and find the sweet spots for 40w pep output.  It will make a good "barefoot" amp as well as a good HPSDR IPA for the Dr. Love chain.  Can't fight a good designm.  Gonna try a slow pressurized muffin fan under the tubes for quieter operation at low pwr.

T

Tom,
40 over S9 is about 95dB above the noise floor with a calibrated S meter.
Close in there is a good chance the receiver is generating IMD. Look at the Sherwood specs and you will se you are well above the point that would produce IMD. I have been tricked many times falling into this trap. The HPSDR Mercury is my best spectrum analyzer for dynamic range.

If there was bad receiver IMD, then it would show up equally on the Erb or the tube amplifier since both were normalized the same into the RX. Why would one look poor while the other looks good if it were not the case?

Besides, I have used the Mercury (and the Softrock) spec analyzers and they show basicsally the same thing as the FT-1000D. So I simplfy it and use the RX for now.  But later I will go back and look at them on the Merc again.

I have tuned in many stations on the air that were even +50 over and were very clean. And have seen some +20 and dirty.

Bring your Erb amp over here so we can take a close look at its the performance and see if there is any difference from mine.  Or I could bring my Erb to your pad.  

T

Tom,
I got faked out using my HP141 at a level that generates internal IMD
Yes relative is a good test but not without a step attenuator or something as clean as Mercury.  A quick test if you are generating internal IMD. Drop the input level 10 dB if the IMD drops the same amount you are ok, if IMD drops more than 10 dB the RX your using to measure IMD is generating internal IMD

My HPSDR

Modified Erb MRI Amp

Nice pics!  So you learned how to upload... ;D

I see the bias board and vertical orientation of the heatsink.  BTW, what was the Richter reading when you got hit over there in pic #2?

Hey did it!!!  Tonight I got the TMC linear working with the HPSDR. 10mW in gives me a VERY SUPER clean 50W pep out. I'm seeing an easy -45 to -50db third IMD now. The S-meter is down around S2 to S3 using the same test as before. The cleanest amp of any yet. I added some more NFB and will try some more tmw. Really pleased.  It's within an S-unit IMD of the HPSDR at 30W pep out. All I need is 30W to drive Dr. Love anyway.

The sweet spot found when the pair of 4CX-250's are running only 650 volts plate and 200V screen with 100ma idle each in class A.  I can barely hear the difference between the -55db HPSDR barefoot and the linear on.   Maybe we can get on with Rob over the next few days and give it an on-air check.  At 50w pep out the plate current does not move at all. The tubes stay luke warm.  Great overkill.

I defy anyone to hear ANY side crud on that signal now... ;D  

I still have a pesky RF intermitant in it. Something drops the power down to 1/4 when it happens.  

T

I'll give you a bad report, if you really want one.

Just to let everyone feel smug and realize they aren't the only one who screws up big-time...

Yesterday I  dumped 200 watts into my Mercury SDR receiver board and fried the front end. Picked the wrong cable and it became the dummy load... [sigh]

Funny thing is I kept pumping power in trying to figure why it wasn't apperaing on the scope. That board didn't stand a chance. Looks like a fried zener and preamp chip at least.

I was troubleshooting the new TMC amp and started to lose track of things after a long session of looking for an intermittent.

 T

Tom,
Why not use your HP606 as a source while looking for the amp problem.

I WAS using the HP-606.

The SDR coaxial cable was hanging out there from some tests before to see if I had the right amount of drive.  The intermittent was in a coax, so I was rapidly switching them around for tests and finally grabbed the wrong one.

Too bad cuz I had the Mercury BNC pulled off before to prevent such a problem, but it was on this time.

Just like getting cut and going to emergency, I sent it off to Gerd in Germany to repair with his microscope.

T


*** Update: Went to pack up the board and found the box, ESD wrapping, spare Janus and Pinnochio boards. They were covered in cat piss. Looks like "Precious" didn't like the smell of the original user...  Tough week here, electronics-wise.

now that really sucks
But if I share my week I bet I got you beat
It is even worse when people working for you who don't care blow stuff up.

There's even more screw-ups that I didn't mention... too embarassing.  It really comes in trends. The only way is to stick with it until success.

My Merc board is 6-10 days shipping there, a week to repair and the same back.  Maybe a month until I get it back..  My little mistake cost a lot.  Worst case is he says it's toast... :-(

The good news:  That last spike problem on Penny - Phil said he's working on it now and may solve it soon, in software. So I wasn't crazy after all. Still surprised many that had the problem never spoke up. And strange that not everyone had the problem too.

Back on the TMC - I decided to do it right and supply 1500V plate, 350v screen, etc. Might as well make it a stand-alone 200w pep out clean class A amp.  I can easily run it lightly as a driver.  I found even the Henry is up around -45-50db 3rd when run at 50W out.  It pays to run these amps at way reduced power and use more stages if need be..

T

Your not alone Tom. I pumped full output from my Johnson Viking II into the front end of my prized 75A-4 once and held it keyed down wondering why the watt meter wasn't moving. Sometimes the Bird slugs don't make contact internally. The receiver was behind me and it wasn't until I smelled that awful acrid odor of electronic death did I let up. I too misconnected a jumper while testing. That was one of those days I should have seen coming. I had worked for hours ignoring food and rest while chasing a problem. I was tired, hungry and convinced I was close to solving my problem. Instead I made a big mess.

You and Frank are light years ahead of me on many levels and I'm following this thread with interest. Keep up the good work and be assured we all feel your pain. I think I might have an HPSDR transceiver some time soon.

Mike

Mike,
The HPSDR Hermes transceiver will be out this year. It is Mercury, Penny and Metis all on a 4 by 6 inch board. I think this is a great way to get into SDR.
There were issues driving the atlas motherboard early on but I think solved. All on one board eliminates all the interface issues and extra hardware.

I think I have solved my drop out problems by reducing the buffer sizes.
This allowed me to increase my sample rate to 192k. I was making the mistake of trying to run at the lowest horsepower which limited my performance. I uncapped the headers, rejetted the carb and moved the advance curve up a bit quicker. I didn't hear a single drop out this afternoon.
I was busy working on the big rig so didn't get a chance to tx but hope to get on Sunday. Still only running 16%.

Whoops, looks like I missed your post there, Mike.

Ouch on the 75A4.  Yes, I'll bet all of us smoked a valuable something or other at one time or another... :o   I think the rule is don't work on rigs when we are tired, frustrated or especially ANGRY with our progress. When we're POed, we take stupid risks that we normally would not.

As Frank said, the Hermes sounds like an excellent step forward. It's almost like going from an HT-37/SX101 to a Swan 750 transceiver. (Maybe that's not an upgrade)   The Mercury, Penny and Ozy boards are winners for sure. To combine them all into one board is slick. The only downside is there will not be dual diversity receiving with two Hermes due to technical problems.


Thanks for the encouragement, Mike.   (as we slug on)  I'm working on my TMC class A linear right now.

T

Tom,
Do you know power SDR has a built in two tone generator? I plan to do some testing Sunday afternoon with the HP141 on the KAZ antenna.

"Tom,
Do you know power SDR has a built in two tone generator? I plan to do some testing Sunday afternoon with the HP141 on the KAZ antenna."



Sure. Been using it for a while.  Download the Flex software manual and dig in. There are wonderous things this system will do that are not user obvious.  I still want to try that zero beat function Al talked about, assuming it works on HPSDR.

How about trying an IMD test with the Erb using the generator and Penny?

T

Tom,
I was able to zero beat the TX by putting a 30 hz offset into the TX. I have not tried the zero beat function. This fixed the SSB offset you guys were telling me about. I need to build the reference board one of these days.
Yes, I plan to check IMD today with the 24 volt supply on the final with different bias settings.

Interesting on the ssb offset. I thought it was my rig or imagination, but I also heard the tiny offset between TX and RX. I wonder what that's all about in siftware?

Anyway, GL with the IMD test today. Too bad you don't have one of those 48V supplies for the finals.  Come on over and borrow mine if you need.

I'm still in the middle of building a new power supply for the TMC linear. I decided to build a new separate 1600V plate supply and the regulated LV supplies. Will take some pics of it later and post.  The original supply I built had so many changes it started to look JS. Just had to start with a new chassis.... ;D

T

Tom, I just finished some IMD  tests with Erb. At 30 watts out I was able to hit 40 dB IMD3 but it took a bit of doing. First I had to drop my sample rate back to 96K to reduce the unwanted sideband. Then I had to set up an EQ profile for maximum attenuation. When I looked at the two tone signal it looked very over modulated on P SDR display. The audio profile with max attenuation allowed me to reduce test signal levels to look cleaner on the display.
When I run the output up to 100 watts the IMD drops to about 32 dB with heavy bias. I have one more 48 volt supply but want to run around 40 volts and just need to finish the supply I started.
I think Erb can be improved and will get into it later when the new supply is up and running. I know the first spot to distorte is the gates of the final so maybe the driver output transformer needs help.

Tom,
I looked at penny stand alone and found IMD3 better than -60 dBc IP3 at 75 meters with reduced audio levels. I received a file from Joe K5SO to reduce audio gain at the DSP. I just sent you a copy. IMD3 was around -50 dBC IMD3 before I changed the two tone level.

Yep, -60db is outstanding running Penny barefoot. I can barely detect any side crud, even when it is +40 over on the RX.   With Penny driving the TMC, I am able to get the TMC (with extra NFB) within about 1-2 S-units of that when running at 40w.

I saw the same 2-tone overload too. It was just a matter of backing it way down.  I already sent you the same .bat file last week for line input to essentially reduce it.  The 00XX08, etc code that Phil just gave you on line is in the .bat file.  That's what that discussion was about last week.

Gee, I definately will have to bring my Erb over for comparison to yours. If you are seeing -40db at low power or -30 at higher power, then something must be amiss with mine. I even used -45 vcc on the driver and final. Though if the TMC works out, it will be cleaner than the Erb and run a coupla hundred watts out to boot  - or be a +50db 3rd 40w driver when I'm done wid it.

*** A little known secret is that the input to the PA board to most riceboxes is a VERY clean spot to tap off 10 mW or so. These low levels stages are usually very clean but get mucked up by the succeeding power amplifiers. My FT-1000D at this 10mW level was about equivalent to Penny at -60db 3rd.  Heck I shud drive the TMC with that and screw the  HPSDR... just kidding.. ;D

T

Very common information that a double balanced mixer and crystal filter will generate some very clean sSB. Usually stages up to about .1 watts are class A so there are no harmonics generated driving the fianl. Usually the driver and final run class AB where the distortion is created.
Your erb is exactly the same as mine except I have 4 bias pots and you have 2. I bet your two tone generator is also too hot. I checked Joe's code and Phil's code and they say the same thing for level. Phil's code just selects the line in. I suspect the internal test panel still runs the same.
I tried 08  15 , 08   14   changed to both lines 08   14 and as I suspected no gain reduction.
At 30 watts out I saw about -32 dB and at 100 watts about -25 dB until I set up an EQ file with the levels way back. Then it was about -40 dB and -30 dB.
At 192K samples I had a good spur in the unwanted sideband. As you saw on my signal unwanted sideband comes up when you hit the audio too hard.

The average newbie ham would not know about the clean low level tap. It's not printed in radio docs.  It's an EZ way to get a super clean exciter signal. That's why I mentioned it - not for sophisticated guys like you... ;D.

I was able to get a clean 2-tone by adjusting software, EQ level backed off, etc.  Also used SigJenny program from computer. Clean tone, same result on Erb.

Still hacking away on the TMC PS.

T

T

Yup, I just found a two tone generator on this machine. Maybe better to try an external source. I'm thinking Erb needs some help at the driver output/ final input. Maybe those small cores need to be stacked. I need to study the schematic some more.
I bet you could do the TMC +/- LV supply like we did the audio driver. This is for the plus and minus 150 volt sources. TMC did a bit of JS to create the lower voltages.

Ya know, when I was testing Erb stage by stage on the scope, I did notice that the driver output was the first stage to look funky as the drive increased.  Look there first.

However, the IMD results were poor even when lightly driven at 30w out. All I wanted was a clean 30w at that point.

Will probably hook up the TMC tonight and try on the bench wid the new supplies.  I'm hoping it's even cleaner at 1600V/ 40w pep out than with 600v before..

T

I guess it will depend on how low the tank Q goes when you raise the operating Z. Interesting how plus and minus 150 volts was used on the two driver stages. good luck!

Looks like they fixed the spike unkey problem I reported. EXCELLENT! So it WAS in software and just simple T/R sequencing as suggested. The solution was basically a variable sequencer created in software. It will be nice to see a soft T/R break now. I won't be able to test it til my smoked RX board gets back... sigh.:

T



"Doug, W5WC, has found the problem in PowerSDR that was causing the unkeying spike.
What was happening was that RF was still being sent for some 10's of mS after the PTT had released.
Doug has added a variable delay so that you can select how many mS after PTT is released, and the RF stops, that you hold the PTT on.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention - hot switching a PA is never a good idea!"

Tom,
please send me a link to the file to my home email.
I'm not seeing the transient since I reduced the buffer size. I didn't listen for it with another receiver though.
I ran some numbers on the driver output transformer and find the inductance needs to be about 2 to 3 times higher at the drains of the driver. Also the balance transformer would also need more inductance. So maybe stacking cores will help the drain waveform to be cleaner at the final gates. I also saw the problem on the scope when I was playing with transformers but changing to type 43 didn't fix it. Need to study some more to find the best solution. The 4 output transformer cores can be easily stacked but the balance transformer is fairly tight layout. I'm thinking it may need to be a torroid to get the inductance higher and still fit. 

Frank,

There is no available file fix yet. W5WC is supposed to announce the fix (for his own software version, I presume) later today. Then the various writers will have to incorporate the fix into their own software. So it depends what you are using and when it is fixed.

Good on the Erb. Since mine is sitting with blown finals, I will wait til you optimize yours and go from there. I may not even use Erb once the TMC is working, I dunno yet.

Gads, I'm running outa room to fit in this stuff. I was almost tempted to tear down my perfectly running 4X1 rig to make room, but snapped outa the stupor before I did any damage... :-)   The class E rig takes up some prime space too.  Some of the SDR guys have just a computer and an SDR box for the whole station. (and linear)

T

There is a whole new world outside the shack double doors...

Yep, Mo Room. That's what we all need.

This TMC linear amp is killing me. The 6CL6 predriver kept popping until I found I had +40 volts positive bias on the grid. I went thru four tubes b4 realizing it. There's a weird + - 150 supply configuration AND they borrowed some bias from the finals - that I didn't realize and built the PS incorrect.

Then I blew out a 90V SS regulator.  But little by little I'll get the bugs out and it will be a nice amp. Gotta stick with these problems sometimes even though they kick your ass around.  One day I'll come into the shack, flip the main HPSDR switch and everything will come up working FB... ;D

T

I guess you didn't read my 2-13 post at 7 59

Yep, I was aware it was +- 150V cuz I built the supply for it.  But the AH designers sneaked in extra bias from the finals that ran back to the predriver. This set the grid reference for the 6CL6 grid circuit. I shuda traced out the circuit instead of relying on the description that called it "PA bias" only.  Cost me four 6CL6's plus new PS mods to find out.

T

So you didn't look at figure 4.2

Hindsight is 20-20 Frances... ;D

Of course I didn't read the manual - does anyone before they get in trouble?

T

I think the Designers did a good job

I have a request and a question. The request is can I see a simple translation list of the names of the boards and peripheral equipment for what they do regarding the HPSDR?

My question is will the single board transceiver that is in the works need the same back plane/power supply as the earlier component HPSDR TX system?

I'm still in SDR-1000 mode here. I am upgrading to an FA-66 sound card soon so the technology has raced ahead a bit. If I could have my wish I would want a single board HPSDR and a clean 100 watt PA in one package. Any hope of that? I know, that's two questions. Charge me extra.

Mike

It might be helpful, for future reference, to insert a post near the beginning of this post with a reference table for acronyms. I know, it's imposable to insert a post but in this case, and for future long running posts like this, it might be something a moderator could grant to give a thread more continuity. By the way, What's an ERB?  ;D

Mike

Hi Mike,

Look back near the beginning of this thread for links for info on what you axed about - in greater detail.  But I'll do my best here...

The new Hermes transceiver board will be using the Atlas backplane. The Atlas is more or less a universal set of sockets for power and data distribution.

The Hermes is still a 500mW output board, but the PennyWhistle is the 100w external linear. PennyWhistle is not as clean as the Penny exciter, only about -30db third IMD or so, so some of us are seeking out cleaner external amplifiers.

Penelope (Penny) is the exciter, Mercury is the receiver, Atlas is the backplane, Metis is the brand new communications board, though I still use Ozy, the current comm board used by most. Janus is an older sound card, not needed anymore.   Pennylane, the 100w linear amp.

Go thru the thread for more info.    The boards I mentioned above will probably be easy to find used and fully working, once the Hermes is avaialble.

Erb is the company name (ErbTec) of a 10mW > 150w MRI SS amp both Frank and I picked up on eBay a year ago.

Hope this helps and it wud be fun if you joined in, Mike.


Frank, yes, the TMC designers did a good job - just wish I found a factory-made  PS to go with it.

T

Will I need the communications boards (either Metis or Ozy) with this new Hermes transceiver? When I get home in a few weeks I'll look into the boards your using and the next generation in more detail. Thanks for the downshift.

Mike

I have an Erbtec board here I never used... scavenged some parts, that's about it...

Tom,  do you want the 150s off it?

Mike,

Here's the info write-up on Hermes:

http://openhpsdr.org/wiki/index.php?title=HERMES

Yes, it does have built in comm that does USB to computer. No need for Ozy.  Frank, is there any reason to include Metis with Hermes?

Looking over the specs, eight independent receivers using the same antenna, and all the other nice stuff, it's quite a rig.


Bruce, so you have an ErbTec too?  Well, since I've lost the MRF-150's, I could use a new pair when Frank finalizes the mods. From the thread you probably see I'm trying to get it cleaner. It's the cores in the driver, Frank thinks.  Send me a price for the two MRF-150's and I'll pop them in once the design is finalized. Tnx, OM.

T

Hermes: On the air and working well. Just waiting for it to become available to public.

The Hermes design was modified to the metis Ethernet interface. This is a stand alone transceiver.

Finally some success.  The HPSDR transmitter system is working and very clean.

After a week+ of playing with the TMC amplifier as a linear for the HPSDR rig, I decided it was just too much voltage, blower noise and space for a measly 200w pep.  Instead, I went back to the FT-102,  using it as a linear amplifier.

I increased the RF negative feedback cap from 6pf to 18 pf. This really made a difference in its cleanliness, but was harder to drive, of course. Also idled up the three 6146's to 110ma.  I tapped into the pre-pre driver of Q9's base and the Penny's 10mW will drive the pants off it there.

The result was 50w pep output that is close to -50db 3rd! VERY clean side products. If I push it harder, I can get out 150w pep but at about -40db 3rd.  And, the FT-102 is self contained, small and quiet. A no brainer. What a FB 10mW > 150W linear it makes.

I tried driving the 3-500Z's with this system and it worked FB with just ~30W pep drive.  My Mercury RX is still out for repair, but using a separate RX, I plan to get on the air with this system for some tests ASAP.  

Frank, I got rid of that ant T/R keying relay in the HPSDR and made a direct connection to the FT-102 linear input from Penny..  The adjustable pad works great.

Rob/AEX , you around tmw?

T

Hi Tom,

It looks like you have been busy and making lotsa progress! Shoot me an email or a PM and let me know when you plan to put your newest creation on the air. I'll have my staff rearrange my busy schedule to make time for Mr. Vu today.

Rob

I'm wading through... trying to find the best place to look for information/announcements when Hermes will become available..

The last updates I found were from June 2010.... ?

Sounds good, Rob, thanks!

I'll send you a PM later in the afternoon.  Otherwise leave your RX on 3765 LSB about 3PM.


Bruce, take a look at the archives for any talk about Hermes, otherwise, join the reflector and axe them directly what is going on with Hermes.  I would like to know and wud axe, but have spent my nickel already about the keying spike and all the help I received getting up and running... ;D

Right now there is a lot of thread traffic about the new comm board, Metis that was just shipped. Seems to be working FB.

http://lists.openhpsdr.org/pipermail/hpsdr-openhpsdr.org/

http://openhpsdr.org/

As you know, this is not a commercial company, so thangs go slowly and there are often shortages and delays. But the end product is worth waiting for.  

BTW, Please let me know the price for those two ErbTec MRF-150's. I'd like repair it for some new mods. Thanks.


T

Seems odd Tom that they would have eight independent receivers and not dual diversity. I wonder if the receivers are fully independent and can operate on different bands and modes at the same time?

I'm just starting to read up on the Hermes project. By the time they ship I'll be up to speed.

I think Alberto was the last to even ask about it..

quite a while ago....

There is likely so much interest, that those of us outside the circle will not see one for a very long time.  ;)

Mike,

From my basic reading,  "independent receivers" means it's one hardware receiver, one antenna source, but being broad-banded as it is, they can write software to select the particular frequencies to listen to.  Maybe Frank can expound on this.

In contrast, dual diversity requires two truly separate sets of receiver hardware because of two antenna sources.
The tech reason for problems using two Hermes in diversity were related to synchronizing them  and other thangs that I did not understand fully. They said it COULD be done but wud be too complex for whatever reasons.

I understand that they CAN operate on different bands at the same time, but the frequency difference is limited to some maximum. It's in the specs somewhere. 


Bruce,

Check to see if there is a waiting list for Hermes. There are for other boards usually.  They will make as many boards that are ordered for the first run, so you have just as much chance as anyone to get one, I wud think. I agree they shud be a hot item. Heck, they even built in a 2.5 w audio amp to drive speakers directly along with a built in 75M Yagi in software..  ;D


T

That is about what I expected. One mode and up to 8 locations. I'm still wondering if it (the receiver) is truly broad banded. I read in the Wiki information Hermes has "Uninterrupted coverage from 50kHz to 54MHz". It would be beyond cool if you could set your receivers to hot spots on say 40, 80 and 160 and work 10. Limitations being the antenna system.

When you mentioned a second discreet receiver and antenna port, the light came on. Some things stay the same even with the magic of software.

What do you know about the 15 watt Pennywhistle PA? Will that be clean enough to drive my single 8874 to complete the driver stage?

Tom,

Already looked for a list, doesn't appear to be one...

Not the easiest set of webpages to navigate!  ::)

I'll send you those 150s... If they are good, send me some $., if not.. don't.!

I have no good way to test them. They are still on the board.

Thanks Bruce.  Maybe the Erb amp can ride again.

Mike,

The PennyWhistle 16W linear is rated about -30db 3rd below tone or -36db below pep.  Personally, I wud look for something cleaner since the Penny exciter is -55db ++. What a waste of a clean exciter.   Get something at least -40db if possible. 

Another thing, to drive your amplifier, you would be pushing the PennyWhistle to full output. From the tests I've run, most amps are cleaner when backed off and (tube amps) loaded heavily. My SS FT-1000D acts better at lower levels too.  So find a 100w -40db 3rd IMD linear amp and work it easy at 20-30W. That's what I'm trying to do.

Wish there was something out there that did 10mW in > 100w out, 40V devices, -50db 3rd, right off the shelf cheap. There's lots of nice SS amps on eBay, but they're VHF, UHF, etc. There's not a big market these days for HF amps.

T

Tom,

I need a solid 100 watt capable driver for the 4CX3000 amp (Gates Vanguard 1). I posted here some time back regarding the use of my Alpha 374 amp with one of the tubes pulled. It dose a good job at 100 watts but I'll need about 15 watts predrive and Pennywhistle is tempting. I'll have to look at the Motorola rf handbook to see if they have any magic devices with specs like -40db 3rd IMD but I'll bet it will take two stages at least. Every stage adding noise.

I have my erb amp doing -40 at 10 watts out but have more work to do with the driver transformer and feedback. A pair of MRF150s class A at 6 amps bias are rated by Motorola at -50 dBc at 100 watts out.

One might axe, if a final linear amp is only -30 db 3rd, why bother with a super clean exciter and IPA? There's a few reasons.

1)  A -30db final linear will always be dirtier than -30db, depending on the driver. If the driver(s) is very clean, then the final will be close to -30db.  If the driver is  also -30db, then the final will be down around -29db.  If the driver is -27db, then the final will be below -27db. You get the idea.

2)  If the driver is very clean, then why not improve the final linear by idling it higher, loading it more heavily or running it at less power output?   If the driver is marginal, then cleaning up the final will have much less effect.

3) When operating and power is needed for say breaking a pile up, pour it on. But when the QSO starts, back the power down. If the driver is clean, the final will clean up more at reduced power. When we are transmitting alone, people notice our splatter. In a pileup or on a very noisy band, we blend in.


Mike, that Alpha 374 could make an excellent IPA driver for the 3X3 linear.  Load it very heavily (lots of C2 capacitance giving a broad plate dip) at low power and see about adding some higher plate current idle by reducing the cathode zenor.  Maybe reduce plate voltage with the xfmr tap.   I did that with a Henry 3-500Z amp and it's stellar clean.

T

According to HPSDR software writer Doug/W5WC, the unkey spike problem has been fixed and is now available in the latest PowerSDR software:  (sent out on the reflector today)


"Updates were added to PowerSDR/OpenHPSDR v.1.19.3.3 that addresses the issues users are having with “hot switching”. A noticeable 80mS or more of rf was still present after returning to receive. The delay is not consistent and varied greatly depending on the computer in use. This may not correct the problem for everyone so if you find my default settings or limits need adjusting please let me know.

 Added to the Setup/Options tab are three controls that to help fine tune your radio.  Enable PTT Delay will enable the PTT Delay up/down control. The PTT Delay control adds delay between the release of the PTT until the PTT Out line drops. The third is the MOX Delay up/down control. This allows the user to fine tune the delay between when the buffers empty and the dropping of the PTT out line.  If this control is set to low the carrier will still be present at the output after returning to receive.  I added the MOX Delay because of the vast differences noticed with latency in systems I used to test with.

The PTT Delay is not active for the CW modes. Delay control for cw break-in is already present. The MOX Delay is active for all modes.

Also added was a display distortion fix sent to me by Joe, K5SO. Many thanks for that info.


73, Doug W5WC"

Here's the new Hermes transceiver status as reported today. Looks like they had a working version months ago but decided to add some further improvements:



"Hermes beta with PHY is under development, Phil has the FPGA code almost ready and we are now in the process to try and see if we can add a 2M front end for Hermes without degrading HF performance or adding spurs.

The delay has been on my end i'm afraid, morning QTH has been rather busy lately.

I have completed the placement for Hermes with ONLY the HF components so far, a lot of progress has been made on the PCB and we are confident that we'll have the final version ready very soon.

73s,

Tony"

I'm curious Tom, I'm sure you have a reason for wanting 100 watt IPA that runs on 28 volts instead of 13.8 and I understand the distortion issues but if somebody was entertaining the idea of developing such an amp wouldn't it be one that uses the same voltage as Hermes?

Mike

Higher volatge amplifiers are cleaner. Hermes uses high frequency OP amps as output stages.

I had some thoughts on the Erb amp and cleaning it up.
Tom and I both agree the drive signal to the gates of the final is the first signal that gets distorted as you increase power. The 300 watt Erb amp is loaded with 2 10 ohm resistors in parallel on each final gate. I noticed that my 1200 watt Erb amp is loaded at a higher resistance. 24 ohms if I remember or maybe 2 in parallel. Both are the same basic design using MRF150s.
So if the input resistance to the final is increased by a factor of two a couple things will happen. First it will be easier to drive the final with a clean waveform. Second the higher input resistance will increase the negative feedback. Both the 300 watt and the 1200 watt amps use the same value feedback resistor.

Mike,

The HPSDR boards require very small power (+12V, 5V) to run them. Any external linear amp would need a big supply in comparison and wud be separate anyway.  Mobile operation wud be an exception, but I'll bet 99% of all are home stations.  Actually the newer Fets are 50V or so and the specs for linearity are MUCH better than the 13V devices, as Frank said. It's very worthwhile to get something that is at least -40db 3rd, in my opinion.

BTW, I have the SS linear problem solved. A good friend is swapping me the PA unit and LP filter unit from a junker FT-1000D in exchange for some gear I don't use anymore. I have my own FT-1000D and at 40W it is about -40db 3rd. This shud work out fine for the HPSDR as a 40W driver or a barefoot stand-alone 200W out pep rig.

Frank, I wonder if Penny will accept ALC back from the "protection board" of the 1000D PA Unit?  It generates a signal when swr is high or power exceeds a certain threshold.  Or maybe I wud be better off to trigger a fast SS switch at the input of the RF drive to the 1000D PA unit?  One way or another, I don't want to run that thing naked.. :-) It requires 30V for the finals and uses MRF-422's, 150W bipolar devices rated at -30db 3rd at full power, but my tests show much better specs at reduced power.

T

Here's an interesting post on the HPSDR reflector. It was a reply to my search for a clean SS linear. He's water cooling a pair of MRF-429's, a CCI module with a CPU water cooled assembly, idling at 50V, 8A = 400W. He sees -50db 3rd at 100W out.

This technique requires lots of heat dissipation for sure.

Frank, I tried both Erb and the CCI MRF-150's at low power, class A levels for short periods and didn't have such good IMD numbers.  Maybe I can find a way to water cool the junker 1000D PA module as he suggests.

T


------------

Tom,
I am using behind Penelope a CCI kit with two MRF433 as a driver stage to maximal 8 W in class A (bias current 3 A) with IMD3 better than -50 dB overall at 7 MHz.
I am just measuring in detail a next stage following with two MRF429 (50 V), that's a CCI kit as well (AN-758).
If run in class A with 8 A quiescent current it delivers up to 100 W with
IMD3 a little less than 50 dB below one of the test tones (clearly better than 50 dB at your envisaged 30 W).

Since 400 W of steady state power must be dissipated in this mode of operation I have water cooled the transistors by using a computer processor cooling system.

I am just busy measuring all specifications in detail, that's IMD3 as function of power at all bands.
I will send a paper on it to Stan for publication in the next PSR, the TAPR quarterly newsletter.

Best 73, Hans, DL2MDQ.

I'll take MRF150s over MRF429 or MRF433s any day. IMD5 and above better with FETs. I have a pile of MRF429s. Bias at 8 amps man that is making heat.
I don't know of any ALC back to penny check the manual.
I'm headed to the shack to integrate metis. I hope to be on 75 later.

I might chop out my single board CCI amp using four MRF-150's and see what it does for IMD. It has the combiner on it and is two boards presently. (eight FETS) Maybe the combiner and splitter was adding problems. It was no better than the ErbTech. I heard an ssb guy on with four of these CCI boards a year ago and he was 10kc up the band. I'm probably just wasting my time with that particular design.


The 1000D PA unit sends the ALC back to the IF board. Maybe I can trigger a SS device at the PA Unit RF input to open up when there is a fault threshold.   Even an active  pad attenuator would fold back the RF more gradually.

T

Frank,

Here's an intersting statement by the same German ham who is seeing -50db 3rd with the 400w dissipation bi-polar amp.  He feels the IMD improves with less power with his bi-polars.


I sent you the pictures and spectrum results of his tests.

T
_________


 "I've never seen better IMD results in amateur equipment, didn't expect it with this kit.
The MosFet amplifiers they are building with the new Mitsubishi transistors are not bad, however, only at full output power. I was very much disappointed with my FLEX in this respect, since IMD3 is rather poor reducing the output power to less than about 30W. That's not the case wih this bipolar amplifier chain. IMD continuously improves when reducing the power."

I saw the pictures. Interesting. That may be the same board as the bipolar amps we built years ago but the output transformer is a lot better. FETs by nature have better higher order IMD though. Gee I have a pile of MRF429s and a MRF433 driver amp in a collins module.
Still, I'm sticking with FETs. I get back to that at some point. Last night a 4X4 friend sent me an article on a FET amp that does -40 dBc IMD3 at 400 watts out. Big FETs though.

BTW METIS is up and running. Just came upstairs to download the programmer software to update Mercury and Penny firmware.
Hope to be on the air soon.

I wonder if the Metis reduced your CPU % usage?  It seems most of the guys are seeing it.

Yeah, it's about time the HPSDR guys focused on a reliable, repeatable, 100w amp that has super clean output like Penny or Hermes.  Right now everyone settles for less or gropes around looking for something.  Use a big heatsink with water cooled options and let the guys set the idle and power output wherever they need to achieve their goals.

T

CPU down to around 10% from 16% with the USB interface
Audio settings seem tamer with the new power SDR.

HPSDR upgraded with all new firmware / P SDR. Works great.