The AM Forum

Guess it had to happen someday, just wish it had been something else?

Received my rebuilt mod iron yesterday from Gary, WZ1M. The white van (private contractor, no doubt) was in my driveway when I got home. When I came around the side, he was moving a box over that looked more like a soccer ball than a square container. All corners rounded, holes worn through the end where it had been dragged across a concrete floor, etc.

I could see shiny metal through the holes, so I opened the end of the box to inspect further. Discovered paint worn off the bottom corners of the cast iron frames on both sides. Also some of the mounting studs were bent slightly, but none of the porcelain insulators were even chipped or cracked, muchless broken. The rest of the box wasn't as bad, so I figured this was the worst of it.

Before going any further, a description of the packaging is in order. Gary has shipped many big transformers around the country and knows how to pack well. He bolted the transformer to a 3/4" piece of wood with short carriage bolts, then placed the assembly inside of a box with thick, solid sheet foam surrounding it. He cut holes to snuggly fit and protect the insulators. He also placed sheets all around the sides and top of the transformer, then sealed up the box. He then placed this box inside of another box, also surrounded by solid sheet foam, then sealed it up. These boxes were a good fit, they didn't allow for a lot of shifting or movement - if any.

After looking at what I thought was the worst of the damage, I considered myself lucky, signed for the box, and hauled it inside. Without going into detail, I did speak with the driver about condition, he said it looked to him like it had been dropped.

For the next few hours I was busy, first with a realtor telling me the market sucks (no, really?) and I need to drop the price of my house $33K to compensate, then with a call from my wife, followed by a call from Joe, WA2PJP to discuss NEAR-Fest and other stuff like....transformers. Since his loaner is currently in my transmitter, I told him I'd received mine back and other than some superficial damage, it looked fine. Fortunately, he isn't in a rush to get his loaner back.

It was only later when I freed it from the box completely that I saw the real damage: looking at what appeared to be a skewed transformer and running my hand down the edge of the frames, I felt a sharp edge. Closer inspection revealed a large CRACK which ended up being a complete break in the cast iron frame! As well, all four of the top corners had slight damage, mainly the metal edges of the side bells were curled inward.

Someone clearly DROPPED this thing, maybe multiple times, rolled it, slid it, basically abused the hell out of it. 'Average' rough handling would not result in this kind of overall damage. How do you wear holes through 2 layers of thick cardboard, 2 layers of thick solid foam, and wear the paint off cast iron? How do you break thick, cast iron? How do you bend in all four of the top corners? How do you smash a 3/4" solid board it was mounted on into 6 pieces??

Through many discussions of shipping damage, I've always reminded folks that shippers are in the business to move your package from point A to point B, in the least amount of time at the least amount of expense - not to babysit it to your door. I've always said that, outside of a freak forklift attack or similar, a properly packed item will arrive in good shape. I'd never had anything damaged that was properly packed.

Obviously, I'd been VERY LUCKY. Yesterday my luck ran out.

When talking with 'PJP (before discovering the remaining damage), he mentioned having to build a custom box to send a transformer back to Dahl a few years ago - and even it got badly damaged. Luckily, his iron survived intact. Considering that FedEx only had to go from Maine to Vermont, you'd think less handling would mean less possibility for problems, right? Clearly this has no bearing. Gary really overpacked this thing, by all indications. But in reality, how can you possibly pack something to protect against intentional mishandling? Someone obviously felt that this 40lb package was too heavy for them, so it was dropped, slid, rolled, etc. Incidental damage isn't quite so all-encompassing.

Bottom line: The laminations appear okay, the end bells are okay (Gary packed so well that the 55 yr old decal still looks new), insulators and even the mounting ears are okay. If I'm able to locate a spare cast iron frame from a matching transformer type, it should be repairable. At worst, maybe JB Weld will do the trick, if I can locate the missing chunk of cast iron.

But my days of shipping heavy items are over. Nothing beyond small items that can go via USPS Priority. Live and learn. And please - if you weren't already convinced, learn from my misfortune. This did not have to happen.

I do hope you photograph and make a claim.  I assume it was covered for damage.  Remember Fedex and all carriers, even movers, are self insured and only provide mimimal coverage for items damaged.

Document the hell out of it and file a claim if there was additional coverage.  I feel sure you are in for a fight, but do put up the fight.  If you had the coverage, then a letter from a lawyer might have to be purchased.  That does get their attention though.

I gave away a dead KW1 mod transformer last year. I can ask if the fellow would part it out for you.
Skip

Life isn't all bad Todd your KWM380 is working again....... 

I feel for you Todd,

Yep, they really don't care how they handle the stuff they ship.  I'll never forget the time I was leaving work a few years ago, when I saw this first hand.  It was summer, so the doors for the loading dock were open.  Since Fed Ex had come in a panel/UPS style truck, that was too low for the loading dock, the shipping people had taken the boxes we were being shipped that day, out to the Fed Ex truck on a small cart.  As I was walking past the Fed Ex truck, I was shocked to see the driver taking boxes off of the cart, and chucking them right into the back of the truck, like they were basketballs!  No attempt was even made to place the boxes in the truck.  They were just thrown in. 

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Hey Todd,

Really sorry to hear about the (mis) handling of that precious piece of iron!  I too have had some unfortunate experiences with shipping radios and parts. However, I can't help but wonder if problems like you had, and what Ellen referred to, are not instances of individual disgruntled employees' taking out their frustrations on your stuff.  I would be really surprised if FEDEX doesn't make good on your claim.  It would seem to me that they might also want to investigate the specifics of such obvious mistreatment of a package that was clearly well protected from any sort of normal bouncing around that could be reasonably expected during handling and transit.  Best of Luck in getting this resolved!!

73,  Jack, W9GT

Todd,
Sorry to hear about this disaster.  That rots.

I've had my share of damaged items delivered to my home but what baffles me is at work I've been working with a contractor who's been helping us build a test system for the electronic components used on the latest class of submarine.  The contractor is in NJ and we're in CT.  I've been shipping submarine components we use on the subs back and forth to this contractor for the last 2 years.  Not one has ever been damaged in shipping.  I've sent components with values up to $50K and I do the packing myself when I send it out to NJ and some of the components are heavy as well.  It's possible that I've been lucky or maybe when the shipping company notices the declared value of some of these components it might raise a red flag somewhere.  Who knows. It doesn't make sense.

It might pay to declare an insurance value on some of these collector items at a couple of thousand or more when shipping stuff.

Yup, I always declare a high value.

UPS actually stopped taking old radios sometime ago due to claims. Several folks tried shipping them and were turned away. I'd just put 'radio' or such on the slip, with a declared value and had no problems. I recently sent a receiver to Jason and had it packed by a store that had always done good work for me. They charged for 2 boxes, I think he said it was only in one but got there okay.

Seems I have to have an account with FedEx if I want to file a claim, so I've notified Gary and will go from there. But yes - this will be pursued as far as possible. I haven't taken pictures yet, hopefully this weekend (I'm currently digi-cam-poor). I do agree that this looks like individual mistreatment, not common practice from all I've experienced before. But how can it be allowed to go on at all? Union shop maybe? This isn't like someone with a black eye who ran into a door, more like someone beaten repeatedly with a baseball bat. It wasn't a large parcel, and not terribly heavy. So....?

Gary is only about a 5 hour drive from me, and I was planning to go up to get it, things have just been too hectic at home. There's a lesson in here for sure.

Skip, I'll email you on the dead iron. All I need is one of the side frames, but I'd buy the whole thing if that makes a difference. Not sure how to get it here in one piece, though!

 

Skip, I'll email you on the dead iron. All I need is one of the side frames, but I'd buy the whole thing if that makes a difference. Not sure how to get it here in one piece, though!
[/quote]

This time try DHL.  I have had good luck with them.  They seem to ride their contractors hard about damage according to the person who picks up here.

            " This time try DHL "

Some of this stuff is just bad luck...


 I ordered a solder station; it came in its "on the shelf" packaging. Picture this ... a 10X10X12 inch box placed  inside a box approx 3'X3'X3'....   and no other packing....... no peanuts, no news paper no styro.... nothing but air...

The packing must have broken apart and DHL placed the slober station box  in the only box they had on hand.. the station works ok, but WTF?????

klc

That sucks! That xformer was a work of art!

Yeah, I was plenty worried carrying the flimsy, beaten box the halli was in around back... very very relieved it made it in ok shape.

I guess the only thing that could have been done was entirely crate the thing in a cube of 1" ply and then filled the inside with expanding foam... but that would have been uber-pricey.

Sucks that people can't do their job well. All they had to do was be just a little bit careful with it, but nooo...

I once did field service work and one of the customers was American Airlines at Logan Airport in Boston.  One of the machines I worked on was in the luggage handling area. The suitcases were moved by a conveyor belt.  I recall one of the geniuses coming in to work at shift change while I was there.  He was obviously pissed off about something before he entered the work place.  The first thing he did was randomly grab a suitcase off the conveyor belt, slam it on the floor as hard as he could, and then stomp on it!  Then he kicked it, and finally grabbed it and slammed it back onto the conveyor belt.  The other employees just stood around and laughed at him.

I thought about reporting him, but I'm sure the knuckle-draggers would have figured out exactly who did that, since they all knew I was standing there to witness the event, and it would have been trouble for me every time I came back to service that machine.

I tried to pack this mod iron as good as one can for its trip. Luckely I have ALL the paper work with a declared value for this transformer. As soon as I get a few pictures from Todd, I will fight to the bare knuckles for him. There is no need for this to happen and if it did, just admit that it was handled improperly and get on with life. Todd, if you read this, I just loaded my 44 mag and will defend your claim till hell freezes over.
Gary...WZ1M

I remember sitting on the apron in Khartoum, Sudan, while the ground handlers unloaded about 50 diplomatic pouches from an Ethiopian Airlines 707.  Khartoum being what it was, they had no conveyer belt so a couple of guys climbed into the rear cargo hold on a rickety ladder and literally kicked the pouches out the back of the airplane onto the tarmac - about a 15 foot drop.  Luckily nothing was damaged; all of the stuff was packed in gray Zero cases with plenty of foam.

Zero Case can take it no problem. We have a couple dozen the Air Force has been banging around for 20 years and only managed to dent the corners. We had to take a 30 inch drop off a bench and not hurt the electronics inside.  Zero used to be about 20 miles from here years ago.

For your approval.


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.advertisementave.biz/images/preview/americantourister-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.advertisementave.com/tv/category.asp%3Fu_category%3DTransportation%26u_category1%3DAccessories&h=84&w=112&sz=15&hl=en&start=17&tbnid=wHfSJ4r6t6YsDM:&tbnh=65&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3Damerican%2Btourister%2Bluggage%2Bcommercials%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

I remember that commercial!  It was actually kind of funny, albeit sad but true in it's own way.

Ellen - AF9J

Hell, I saw this happen to my luggage at Midway/Chicago back in 2000. Connecting flight between Southwest Airlines to Northwest into Minneapolis. I was already on board in a window seat when they rolled up with the luggage train. It appeared to be a 'boss' baggage handler teaching a newb how to do it. Big, fat guy teaching small, frail female heh. Anyhow, my large suitcase was removed from the cart and tossed face-down on the tarmac, while the others were loaded on. He then made her climb down out of the aircraft and load it by hand onto the conveyor. Scuffed up the front of the suitcase a bit and probably contributed to the EZF (early zipper failure) it suffered.

Gary has gotten the damage claim rolling with FedEx, I need to get some pics sent to him. But I do want to stress that he did a fine job of packing this thing up for shipment with double boxing, double layers of foam sheeting, and a wood mounting base. The lack of damage to the side decal with packing material against it tells me it didn't wiggle around in the box during transit, and the external damage clearly shows severe, direct impact in several places. It just amazes me more since he's sent these things all over the country for years without problems.

Must've been my turn. ;)

        Must've been my turn. ;)

Let'a all remember to try the "AM Express" on these kind of things. Just make a posting of where your item is and where it needs to go. It's unusual when no one steps forward to help in these situations. I would have treated that package like something from King Tut's tomb!
Keith
WA1HZK

Hate to say it, but this is pretty typical of UPS.

When I was at Netezza, we were having hard drives shipped in by the case via UPS. We routinely had a busted-up drive or two in each shipment.

One day I was walking through the lobby when the UPS guy was dropping off a dolly full of drives. Rather than set the stack down and slide the dolly out from under it, he grabbed each case (marked "fragile" and "do not drop") and threw them down on the floor.

"Can you read?" I asked him.

"What?" he deftly responded.

"Can you read where it says 'fragile' and 'do not drop' on those boxes?"

"So what? They're wrapped up in bubble wrap or something."

I was about to offer to wrap him in bubble wrap and toss him off the roof when the purchasing guy came by, read him the riot act and called UPS. When told we didn't want this guy handling our shipments anymore, they said it was his regular route and there was nothing they could do about it. They agreed to have someone else handle our shipments, but the same idiot was back within a few days, still throwing our stuff around and insisting there was nothing wrong with that.

Bottom line: the people handling the packages for UPS don't give a damn about the condition of the packages they handle, no matter how they're marked, because the people who supervise them don't care either. As long as the package gets from point "a" to point "b", they get paid, and the majority of customers will buy the excuse of "it must not have been packaged properly" and not pursue the matter any further.

The only numbers that matter to them are productivity, the number of packages shipped. The condition of the packages doesn't enter into that number, especially if the customer buys the excuses instead of formally complaining. When enough people go public about the lack of quality in UPS's work, they will be forced to change their ways. In the meantime, a whole lot of people will be told what bad customers they are for letting their merchandise be packed in a way that it won't survive being moved from one UPS center to another by catapault.

Each pissed off customer gets them one step closer to doing something about it.

So go get 'em, Todd, and give 'em one for me, too!

--Thom
Keep Away One Zorched Ground Conductor

Fwiw, UPS and the others really really whip their employees constantly. The poor drivers now have a GPS tracking device running all the time, they can't even stop and talk during their day anymore for more than a minute or so.

Same deal in the terminals and hubs, the handlers are expected to haul arse all shift long. They do get paid pretty good, so there is a line out the door for the jobs, which makes it easy for the company to crack the whip. And they certainly do.

It's not much of a wonder that the workers often do not have respect for the packages or the customers in that world. Too bad that's what we've come to.

I double box everything I ship. Have had exactly one failure in many many years, that was a FED Ex overseas. Looked like they ran a forklift through the box or something like that to do the damage they did. Had to fight a bit, but they paid off - of course the irreplaceable product that was damaged was not replaced - the customer had to be happy with the money.

That packing should have been good enough. I'd perhaps have applied a second plywood piece to the top of the iron and then used strapping tape or that plastic shipping wrap all around to secure it - which might have avoided the damage, even after the box(es) were sufficiently abused. I think they were playing "forklift soccer" with that package??  :o :o ::) ::)

Consider silver brazing to fix the broken cast iron piece - you want to get the rest of the cast piece quite hot before doing the actual brazing and then cooling slowly - iirc. Should make a virtually invisible repair.

Fwiw, Jackson Bob K1REC might be able to cast a replacement piece for you... he specializes in that sort of thing I am told.

                 _-_-WBear2GCR

Remember that the supervisors and people above him came up through the ranks at UPS.  Their first job is loading long haul trucks from about 4 AM until about 11 AM. They are not going to change their behavior.  If a driver gets stuck or has an accident, then that can spell trouble for them, but not mis-handling packages.    

I would bet Todd's transformer was at the top of the stack, at the door of a long haul trailer when it was opened.  They stack every package they can in those trailers right back to the door then slam them shut.  I would bet the transformer was at the top and fell to the ground when the crew used a 6 ft. hook to open the door and the package fell about 8 ft.  They use the hook to prevent paying someone workman's comp claims should a package fall on them.

I DO NOT use UPS.  They care less about the state of the packages they deliver.

I should've corrected the subject line to read "When It Comes to Smashing Stuff, FedEx..." since I've never gotten anything this trashed from UPS.

But I agree with the statements of this being bad luck on my part, as it has been for others in the past. Jim, your theory would certainly account for the broken frame, but this thing looked worse than a baby harp seal on opening day of seal season. The box corners were crushed down to the point that the container looked more round than square. Paint worn off where the box was dragged along a concrete floor or similar, wearing through two layers of cardboard with 3 layers of solid foam board between. It was clearly a case of mishandling overall, not merely one impact.

MrMike was over Saturday and took some shots for the claim. He sent them to me in zipped format, unfortunately my new work PC lacks anything to unzip them. I'll see if he minds posting a couple of the more obvious shots to the thread.

The thing that gets me about this, is half a century ago, this stuff got shipped exactly the same way, and DIDN'T get trashed.

Maybe teaching a few brownshirts some respect the hard way would help? ;)

Here are a few shots. Note the skewed threaded rods on the top shot. When the frame snapped, it was shoved backwards, causing this.

And a few more...

Last ones. If the boxes and packing look insignificant, it's because they were pulverized. The foam and cardboard not damaged are still quite stout, there just isn't very much of it. There were two boxes, separated by foam sheets (blueboard and Styrofoam) along with the shattered board as a base.

HUGE Thanks to MrMke for helping me out in the photo department.

What a tragedy!  All that beautiful work down the drain, not to mention the time and money.  I use FedEx exclusively and have had very few problems, but this just goes to show it can and does happen.  Gary has shipped several things back to me and they have always been packed well just as this one was.  I'm sure sorry Todd, can it be salvaged at all?

Rick/K5IAR

Sigh...

Whenever I have to ship a heavy transformer, I  always use a wooden box. I bolt the xfmr to a wooden base, (usually 1/2" plywood) then place the thing in a stout wooden box.  I build the box frame from  2X4's and then wrap the box with nailed plywood sheet  5/16ths thick. I add some more 2X4's to the outside.  I screw the 2X4's together with sheet-rock screws.

I keep spare boxes in my garage. I'd love to find a metal tape wrapping machine cheap; that would really finish the packaging in fine style.

Yes Rick, it can. I don't think the laminations suffered and damage, but there's really no way to know until Gary opens it back up and tests it. Had it not been for the cracked frame, I'd have it installed now. The bent studs and paint loss on the corners are minor. Finding a replacement frame will be the fun part.

It's just another nuisance I don't need right now, or Gary either for that matter. 'PITA' comes to mind.

Ed, I'm not sure they allow banding unless you're shipping freight. 'PJP did exactly as you described, built a solid wood box to ship iron to Dahl. It also got trashed, he said the transformer was hanging out the bottom when he got it back, but it survived at least.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the insulators are cracked and you won't find them until they see high voltage.
Looks like the 97 pound weakling handled this package...

Todd,
        FWIW, I have always had pretty good luck welding cast iron. If you can get it to me I can prolly weld it for you. I'd be happy to do it with one condition! I hear it back on the air!!

                                            The Slab Bacon

I don't know what else this stuff is, except freight !     ;D  It sure aint  mail!!!   

Ed, I have a UTC power transformer that must be 2 feet long or more. It's built into a rolling cabinet power supply. Now, that would easily make the 'freight limit'. This mod iron was maybe 40 lbs, if that.

Slab, you have a deal! As soon as I can find a replacement, I'll get it to you. Skip is looking into a dead transformer just like it, so we'll see what happens. I had thought about JB Weld, but SB (Slab Bacon) Weld should do the trick?

I've always been told that cast iron can be welded, but it's very tricky. An art form, really.

Hi Todd,

I live in a rural farm community and there are a couple of guys here who have a lot of experience with cast iron-if you find a community with lots of farmers near you I bet you could find somebody who is good with cast iron.  JB Weld is about the only welding I can do, anything else goes to professionals.  Growing up on the MS gulf coast I recall seeing a self-styled "welding expert" showing how good he was with some cast aluminum spiders from a cubical quad that was damaged in a hurricane.  Apparently it was high magnesium content aluminum and it made a beautiful fire and it also took care of the welding problem too since once the flames died out there wasn't anything left to weld.  After seeing that little demonstration I decided that welding would not be a skill for me.

73, Rodger WQ9E

Welding is just like building radios. Itz an acquired skill. Like everything else in this world,
"practice makez poifikt" I picked up a stnger for the first time when I was 10 or 11 years old. And besides when you are buildin somethin big, weldin takes a lot less time than drillin a million holes!! Especially in heavy steel.

                                                                                the Slab Bacon

Two things:

- the cracked part looks like a band around the lams, and the plate on the front looks like stamped metal, yes?? If so, the "band" has to come off.  Then it can be repaired, OR a new band can be fabbed from steel (easy enough). (they did the cast, because it was cheap at the time) New feet can be welded on, no prob. Looks like two steel bits, one for the top, one for the bottom - drill through holes (make simple jig then--->), weld on new feet (spot through a hole, or weld along the sides) and weld on thinner stuff (1/8"?) for the sides (spot a hole, and then weld the edges to the top/bottom sections, grind round & clean/smooth), paint. Small mig or Tig. Even gas Brazed is ok.

The question is what holds the stamped plate to the band? -just the through threaded rods??

- two, notwithstanding Frank's offer, the usual fix for cast is Braze, not weld. Weld gets too hot and makes the surrounding cast super brittle and can cause stress craking. Of course Slab may have some tricks. But Braze is really easy and simple on something like that piece.

My 2 cents.

                  _-_-bear

Finally, something I know something about. 8)

Bear, just remember one thing about brazing, it's a wetting technique and the repair will only be as strong as the filler used. The parent metal isn't bonded at the molecular level.

In Todds' case, that piece probably has some force on it from the threaded rod pulling against the lams, so actually welding it is the preferred method. looks like it's made from 'gray iron', the most common with about 4-5% carbon in it's makeup. Piece of cake

first off, sandblast it, takes a second, cleans the surface, and the piece is going to need to be repainted anyway.

Your going to need a 5 gallon bucket of clean sand, like beachsand or whatever. (This really isn't totally necessary, but will kill any chance of cracking from brittleness altogether. Pour a small pile on the floor or whatever maybe 2-3 inches deep, (half a bucket, your going to need the other half in a minute)

Grind a slight relief along the break to allow penetration.

Clamp it down in place with some c-clamps or whatever to hold it still.

Mark the piece with a 650 degree paint stick.

Get the welder ready to go. about 120A, DC, 99Ni, or 55Ni Nickel rod

Preheat the piece until the 650 deg paint mark gets glassy looking.

strike and push the weld along, not dragging, about an inch to 1-1/2 at a time. In this case, do it all in one pass.

As soon as the welding is done and the area turns dark, pick it to find anything loose so it's clean (move fast) then put it ontop of that pile of sand and pour the remaing sand over that to cover it.

The fun with the sand could be skipped all together on a non critical part, but the purpose is to slow down the cooling. Do it, and there won't be any chance of brittle material around the weld.

Sounds like a lot when it's typed out like this, but in real time, only takes a few minutes to do.

I have an old mod reactor from a 20v downstairs that I broke two of the legs off,(opposite sides) that I need to get to one of these days, but it still stands up just fine, so no emergency there.

Ni-rod 55 is the berries for cast iron. They also make a phosphor bronze arc welding rod that is very good for cast metals.

Another way to do it is to preheat it with a hand torch. Weld it while it is still hot, do not allow it to cool between passes. chip the slag and make the next pass while still hot. After you have finished welding the crack, put the torch back on it for a few minutes to help relieve the stress rizers. (keep it cherry red for a few minutes)  While it is still hot, toss it into a pre heated kitchen oven turned up a high as it will go. After about a half hour, turn the oven down to around 375 for about an hour, and then turn the oven off, leave the door closed and allow the part to cool slowly in the oven until it reaches room temperature. (several hours)

I have used this technique on cylinder barrels, exhaust manifolds, antique gas engine parts and other tricky pieces of cast iron for many years. I have also used this technique to weld steel to cast iron and other difficult repairs. If You cant find NI-ROD 55, you can also use 308-16 stainless steel rods, but you have to really pre heat the hell out of the work and cool it more slowly.

                                                                         The Slab Bacon

(CBS4) DENVER Six UPS workers were hurt while moving acid Friday night.

The incident happened at about 10 p.m. at the UPS freight division facility in Adams County.

Fire officials told CBS4 it was an accident. UPS employees were moving hydrofluoric acid from one forklift to another when more than a gallon of the liquid spilled.

Hydroflouric acid is often used in pharmaceutical production and can dissolve glass.

Whoa!

Also known, i think, as Aqua Regia?
Or, a component thereof. Maybe it also has some HCL in it...
Dissolves gold.

Not a good thing to get on ur self.
Not a good thing to breath the fumes after it reacts and releases some Flourine gas...

Well packed!  :o ??

                _-_-bear

Hi Bear,

Not quite.  Aqua Regia, is a mixture of Hydrochloric, and Nitric acid in a ratio of 3 to 1 respectively. It is called that because it can dissolve most (but not all) noble metals such as Gold, Siver, Platimum, etc.  Here's some more info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia

BTW Hydroflouric acid is still, VERY nasty stuff.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

The shipping companys are just getting worse . Wonder how many temps are working there now ?

You welder guys are just too cool.....coming from a guy who makes a beautiful slag bead.

Just like everythin elze pwacktiss makez poifict!!

thatz allright, We still need you to answer all of the tough rf techincal questions.

That is one of the very cool things about this group. As a collective intelligence we got it all!! there is someone here that can give an intelligent answer for just about any question on just about any subject. This is also pretty much true of the entire AM community in general!! This is what makes it all work!!

                                         The Slab Bacon

imagine if all the talent here and formed a company.....but who would be the boss?

biggest strapper
best shot
longest old buzzard TX.