The AM Forum

Let's try to break the stigma of daytime 160 meter coverage.  We're at the bottom of the solar cycle and it's winter time.

Anyone interested in getting on 1885 kHz. AM Saturday and/or Sunday at noon to 1 p.m. (the worst time)and see what we can do?

You should be able to do 100 miles no sweat, up to 200 with good stations.  More? Let's find out!  Hoo-rah.

I will make every effort to get on Sat at 1300 EST

HI Tom. I think that most of the time we work each other is when 160 is on the lax side. I maybe on doing some testing of the HN-500. 160 in the afternoon is like hitting a good repeater. Quiet and little or no noise. Joe, N3IBX and myself had the pleasure of working Chuck, K1KW, about 12:30pm. I wouldn't say he was a real channel master at the time but it certainly copyable.

Dave, Mike and all,

I should be available both Saturday and Sunday 12 noon to at least 1 p.m. + unless something comes up at the last minute.  Dave, your location is great for the test.  It would be good to have Chuck K1KW on board too.

I will be on 1885 kHz. AM at noon to 1 p.m. at least. 

Please make an effort to get on and test the waters.

Thanks.

At noon today I stopped in the shack for a quick listen on 1.885 with the FRG-100 and 160m dipole.   

Noise level perhaps S5.  Tom KLR you were a solid S9 with peaks of around 5 over.  Dave NP, not quite as strong, but still 100% copy.  Got a bit better when you allowed your feedline to radiate.

Got to resume the weekend carpentry project so cannot get on the air. 

Paul ORC

Sorry, but I had un-expected company stop by. I did manage to get some coax ran and all the audio cables hooked up to the HN-500. All it needs is the HV cable and hopefully, I'm back in business.

Saturday 28 Jan.  Some kind of cw contest on.  At 2 PM (2000 GMT), a little past noon, I heard a VE3, several W2's and a W8 in MI.  All had S7 signals or better.  Who said 160m daytime propagation is limited to groundwave coverage?

Last night, propagation on 75 was extremely long.  At 0500 GMT stations closer than several hundred miles were inaudible.  Friday night, low QRN, there were 25 kc/s swaths of empty spectrum in the 75m phone band.

160 meter propagation test 1/28/06 12 noon – 2 p.m.

I was on 160 meters AM today from 11:55 a.m. – 2 p.m.  Later short session at 2:30 p.m.  At first, it was just Dave W2APE and myself.  At 12:55 p.m. we were joined by Dave W3NP and later Dave KC2DMC, too many Daves.  Terry N4RQ came on–board later for a little bit, and then Bill N3TR arrived. 
About 2:30 I talked with Chuck K1KW and Carl WA2UJX.

For the original 4 stations, W2APE, KC2DMC and W3NP form a triangle with me in the middle.  Later when N3TR arrived he is even more centrally located than me.

Communications at these distances, at this time of day is E layer, one hop. 
The elevations angles are in the  25 (RQ - DMC) to 68 (KLR – TR) degree range.
At 2 p.m. web propagation site http://dx.qsl.net/propagation/ 
reports Solar Flux Index of 84 ( SSN = 26 ), A Index = 8, K Index = 2. 
Only thunderstorms is small activity in north Texas and Oklahoma. https://thunderstorm.vaisala.com/tux/jsp/explorer/explorer.jsp

Stations:
WA3KLR  100 watts, end-fed half wave at 40’ avg. ht.  Hrd and worked everyone fine.
W3NP     legal limit, ½ wave dipole, center fed, 42’ avg. ht.
W2APE  300 watts,   horiz. dipole, 123’ long.
KC2DMC   200 watts
N4RQ   BC1T
N3TR    IC-746 barefoot, ½ wave center fed inv. V, 48’ ht. 20’ at ends
- - - later - - -
K1KW   legal limit, ½ wave dipole, 170’ ht.
WA2UJX  Globe King

Some distances and signal levels:
KLR – NP 200 miles   NP 5 – 10/9 at KLR, KLR S7-8 at NP.
KLR – APE 80 miles  10/9 at KLR, KLR 5 – 10/9 at APE.
KLR – DMC 120 miles  5 – 10/9 at KLR, DMC hears KLR fine.
KLR – N4RQ 265 miles  KLR hears RQ well, RQ hears KLR weak.
KLR – UJX 130 miles   KLR hears UJX 15/9 ( 2:30 p.m.), UJX hrd KLR fine.
KLR – TR 60 miles  KLR hears S-9, TR hears KLR 10/9.
KLR – K1KW  270 miles (2:30 p.m.) KW 10-15/9 at KLR, KLR S-9 at KW.
NP – APE 265 miles  NP could not hear APE at first, APE copy NP o.k.
NP – DMC 290 miles  DMC copies NP, NP copies DMC.
NP – RQ 240 miles  OK both ways.
DMC – RQ 380 miles  * longest haul, DMC copies RQ but weak, RQ hr DMC??
APE – RQ 260 miles  OK both ways as I recall.
APE – DMC 130 miles   no sweat both ways.
DMC – TR 170 miles  TR hears DMC S-7, worked both ways.
RQ – TR 220 miles.  TR heard RQ weak.  RQ left before TR tx.
APE – TR  100 miles  TR hrd APE S-9, OK both ways.
NP – TR  150 miles  TR hrd NP S-9, OK both ways.

WA3KLR receiver residual noise level S-6.  Drake R-7 6 kHz BW, country location.

Before the test, I felt that 100 miles was doable no sweat, and that 200 miles or more would be very difficult.  The overall results of the longest distances obtained was better than I expected.  Most of us have cloud-burner antenna patterns due to the low height of the horizontal wire antennas, maximum gain at 90 degrees elevation.  Most contacts would be using the sides of the pattern, -5 dB to -12 dB from the peak.  Looks like vertical antennas may be a big help for these 100 – 400 mile daytime contacts in addition to the traditional night-time DX use of verticals.

We will be doing another session tomorrow, Sunday noon to 1 p.m. 
It would be good to get some people with verticals in the tests tomorrow.
Don, if you can make it, this would be great.   However you are 750 miles from me.
BCNU.

Tom,Mike(y),Others,
                           I'll try to be on tomorrow (Sunday) at high noon with the T-368.
                           The propogation results and contacts are fantastic.
                                                                                             Huzzah!
                                                                                                  Joe N3IBX

If you fellows will turn the RF gain up a bit and listen, I'll TRY to check in with you Suday, but if I can't get in, I'll at least get reports posted on here for you.

Last night I was listening to the CW contest.  The band was absolutely packed up to 1865 with some seriously strong signals.   S9 plus was the norm on my TS480.  And remember I'm using a 37 foot long linear loaded dipole in the attic.  I was impressed by my receive capability, but I didn't work anyone.  No surprise considering the antenna.   But remember on AM I'll be runninng 25 watts of super piss weak RBM (ricebox modulation.)

Like I said, I'd like to give it a try, but reality is I won't be holding my breath.

About 5 years ago I lived in Belton, TX which is about 140 miles North of Seguin, TX.  There was a station there with a 93 ft (as I recall) vertical using about 75 radials.  I had an Inverted L that was 40 ft. vertical and about ~130 ft. horizontal with about 25 radials. 

We ran tests over several days during the month of July, 2001.  We would try contacts every hour starting at about 10:30 AM until about 2 PM.  In each test we were able to make contact with readable signals in the range of S8 to S6.  The Seguin station ran about 100 watts and I had 300.

160 can be a good short range band during the day out to almost 150 miles when the sunspot cycle is not that good.  Now that it is, I have worked the same station in the past 30 days at about 2:30 PM and I now live almost 350 miles from him.  We have the same antennas up now that we had then.

The key to long distance is vertical polarzation or dipole height.  Get them up as high as possible.  If you can't go very high, do something with a veritcal component.  My current Inveted L is 44' vertical and about 120 horizontal with about 25 radials over poor ground (clay and rocks) and over big gulleys wilth lots of trees.

As I write this, I can hear stations on 1.885,  from the NE in 3 land.  They are just in the noise and one is just above it.  It is 8:45 PM and a few static discharges from thundershowers.

Jim said:
This is the thing Jim, Joe, N3IBX and myself both use dipoles. I think Joe's is up about 50~60 feet while mine in 30 feet at the ends and at the feedpoint with sags in between. The ground here is very poor, loose shale so a ground wave doesn't propogate all that well. Joe, myself and others have been farting with this since about Nov. Most times the copy is Q-5 with a slight band fade. But very quiet and copyable with 100 watts into the aerial.

Interesting stuff guys.

 I have been working a lot in SW Wyoming the last 5 years and normally can't hear KOA 850 in Denver during the day shortly after dawn. That's about 420 miles. However all this month almost any day, but not always, I can copy them with excellent signals. There must be no D layer, or a really weak one. Wonder if any of you guys out east have seen this on the BC Band?

73, Marty WB2RJR

Hi Marty - The D layer is there every day.  It's property as an absorber is worst at 160 meters.  At MF and LF the D layer can reflect signals, like the E and F layers. Perhaps with the bottom of the solar cycle and the winter-time, the D layer and E layer is at lower height with D layer diminished at morning now and you are getting some enhancement that way?  D layer is directly related to Sun elevation angle.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

PROPAGATION TEST AGAIN TODAY, SUNDAY NOON !

I will be on 1885 kHz. AM at noon to 1 p.m. at least. 

Please make an effort to get on and check in.

Thanks.

Tom,
      You did a great job of organizing the daytime event today and being net control on the air. I had a lot of fun and was very surprised to hear Steve, WB3HUZ as well as I did. Ditto on Brent, W1IA and Bill, KC2IFR. Bill may be the Northernmost station located in Glen Falls, NY. I think he's located close to the Canadian border.

I'd like to try this again sometime soon and especially during mid-Summer; when D layer absorbtion will be at it's highest.

Mod-U-Later,
                 Joe Cro N3IBX

Marty, my guess is you are getting KOA via groundwave, so the D layer doesn't even come into play. Although, it is curious why you would hear it now, and not in the past. Check out the coverage map for KOA at the URL below. Are you within the blue area?

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KOA&service=AM&status=L&hours=U


====
Lots of stations on 160 today. Here's what I heard. SNR is a rough measurement made using the 51J-4 meter, IF bandwidth at 6 kc. It's more a relative indicator than anything else. My local noise was around 5 on the meter (read in db, 0 to 100). So a station with a SNR of 20 would have pushed the 51J-4 meter to 25. Miles is the distance of the station from my QTH, Williamsburg, VA

Call            Name                 QTH                            SNR           Miles


W3NP         Dave    Ft. Ashby, WV                          25-30**        190
WA3JYU      Bert     Coatesville, PA                        15-20           193
K3ZRF       Dave    Denver, PA                               20-30           207
W2APE       Dave    Beachwood NJ                         10-15          228
WA3KLR     Tom     Quakertown, PA                      10-15           231
N3IBX         Joe      Washington Crossing, PA        15-25           231
KC2DMC    Dave    Stone Ridge, NY                          0 *            345
KC2IFR      Bill        South Glens Falls, NY                  0              446
K1KW         Chas    Bolton, MA                                   0 *            447
W1IA          Brent    Derry, NH                                     0              483


* - SNR was not actually zero. This indicates no copy. I could detect the carrier with the BFO, and for short periods, even hear audio, but could not make out words.

** - Before I signed out at 1:25 PM ET, Dave's SNR was up to 40-45.

= = = =

Lots of fun. Thanks to Tom for setting this up and MCing.

160 meter propagation test 1/29/06 12 noon – 2 p.m. 1885 kHz. AM :

Thanks Joe and Steve for the kudos.

I was on 160 meters AM today from 11:55 a.m. – 2 p.m.  Most signed off before 1:30 p.m.  About 1:30 I talked with Dave K2DK and Phil K2PG.

Communications at the distances covered on 160 meters, at this time of day is E layer, one hop.  The elevations angles are in the 10 degrees (3HUZ – W1IA) to 70 degrees (3KLR – 3IBX) range; using HamCAP 1.4/VOACAP MUF freeware programs.
At 11 a.m. web propagation site http://dx.qsl.net/propagation/ 
reports Solar Flux Index of 80 ( SSN = 21 ),
A Index = 7, K Index = 0, slightly better ionosphere conditions for 160 meters than yesterday.  Only thunderstorms is activity in southern Ohio and Indiana. https://thunderstorm.vaisala.com/tux/jsp/explorer/explorer.jsp

Stations:
WA3KLR  EPA 35 m. north of Phila.  100 watts, end-fed half wave at 40’ avg. ht.  Hrd and worked everyone.  Receiver residual noise level S-5 ½ to S-7.  Drake R-7 6 kHz BW, country location.
W3NP  WVA   S of Cumberland MD.  legal limit, ½ wave dipole, center fed, 42’ avg. ht.
W2APE  NJ shore, east of Lakehurst.  legal limit, horiz. dipole, 123’ long.
KC2DMC   NW of Poughkeepsie NY  TS-440/amp. 200 watts
K1KW   legal limit, ½ wave dipole, 170’ ht.
N3IBX  EPA border just NW of Trenton NJ, T-368 legal limit, R-390A, 260’ dipole
WA3JYU  PA  35 miles W of Phila. 115 Watts, 75A4, 160m inv. V.
WA2GEZ   Princeton NJ.  100 watts, low dipole.
K3ZRF   16 miles NE of Lancaster PA, 110 W, R390, 180’ inv. V.
KC2IFR NY  45 Miles north of Albany.
WB3HUZ Williamsburg VA  300W, dipole 70’, R390A
W1IA   So.E NH, 350 W Class E tx.
- - - later - - -
K2DK  VA 30 miles SW of Wash DC. 
K2PG  So.NJ near shore.  BC Tx., R390A, folded uni-pole vert. ant.

Some distances and signal levels:
KLR – NP 200 miles   NP Q5 at KLR, KLR S9 at NP (better than Sat.)
KLR – APE 80 miles 18/9 at KLR (better than Sat.), KLR 25/9 at APE (better than Sat.).
KLR – DMC 120 miles  15/9 at KLR (better than Sat.), DMC hears KLR fine.
KLR – HUZ  230 miles  KLR hrs HUZ S8-9, HUZ hrs KLR 10-15 dB above QRM level.
KLR –  IA 270 miles   KLR hears IA S-7, IA hrd KLR S-9 to 10/9, hrs IBX, KW also.
KLR –   K2DK 170 miles  KLR hears S-9, DK hears KLR S7-9.
KLR – K1KW  270 miles  KW S7-9 at KLR (weaker than Sat.), KLR hrd at KW.
KLR – PG  85 miles  PG 15 – 25/9 at KLR 1:30 p.m., KLR hrd gud at PG.
KLR – IFR 220 miles.  KLR hrd IFR S-6, one S-unit above noise level.
NP – HUZ  190 miles  NP hears HUZ the strongest of all, OK both ways.
NP – IA  460 miles *3rd longest haul, NP can detect Brent’s carrier.
NP - KW  450 miles * 4th longest haul, NP hears KW weakly.
HUZ – K1KW 470 miles * 2nd longest haul.  Just detect carriers both ways.
HUZ – IA 485 miles * longest haul.  No signal detection either way.
HUZ – GEZ  235 miles  HUZ not hr GEZ.
HUZ- ZRF 210 miles. HUZ hrs ZRF best of all, ZRF can detect HUZ’s mod. only.
APE – DMC 130 miles.   no sweat both ways.
DMC – HUZ  345 miles   DMC barely hears HUZ, HUZ not hr DMC.
JYU – IA  310 miles JYU not hr Brent.
JYU - HUZ  200 miles JYU hrs HUZ S6-9.

I see a hole in report here for 300 – 400 miles.  Looks like you can work a station up to 300 miles if both are proficient stations.

After being through this test net twice now, I think the way to do this testing is to get everyone checked in during a gathering period and create a round-table list.  Everyone transmits in order for 30 seconds, everyone logs all other stations’ received signal levels.  On second go-round, each station reports receive levels of all other stations.  In this way, we completely fill in the signal level matrix; efficient and fairly fool-proof reporting.

Pencil in Saturday July 1 and Sunday July 2 for High Noon 160 Meter Summer Solstice Test.    (June 24 and June 25 is Field Day.)

Thanks to everyone for your participation.

Tom:

Nice to work you last night on 160.  Will most llikely be on this evening.

I referred to an article that spoke to Noon Time AM Band DX that appeared on E-Ham.  Here is the url to that article:

http://www.eham.net/articles/12830

There are also some groundwave distance v/s frequency tables from the course I teach at USCG CAMSLANT.  Will try and find a way to post those.

/r

Hi Chuck,

It's great to have you on board here.

There was a thread here a couple months ago about ground wave propagation.  I posted 2 graphs from engineering books in the thread at the bottom of page 1:

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=6412.0

See you on the top band.

Dave the APE Man mentioned trying the top end of 160 to see if the propagation was noticably better than on 1885. My dipole probably won't work up that high, as it current is resonant at around 1760 kHz/ :P  I need to do some trimming.

I was thinking about Marty's post today. I noticed WBBR, 1130 out of NYC was very strapping here as early as 3PM. It comes in well down here near sunset, and I think I've heard it piss weakly in the day (probably via groundwave). But I don't recall it ever being that strong, that early. And since it is higher in the band, it's rather likely I was hearing it via skywave. For a while it was strapping WRVA, 1140, which is only about 50 miles up the road in RIchmond, VA.

"Communications at the distances covered on 160 meters, at this time of day is E layer, one hop.  The elevations angles are in the 10 degrees (3HUZ – W1IA) to 70 degrees (3KLR – 3IBX) range; using HamCAP 1.4/VOACAP MUF freeware programs."

No wonder Brent and I couldn't hear each other. We were both using dipole, which on 160 will have a take off angle of 90 degrees! If we both had verticals, we'd have a shot. Unfortunately, no one in the Q yesterday had a vertical radiator.

Steve,

Perhaps the enhanced BC signal from NYC is due to the squadron of cloaked UFOs loitering over the Washington DC - Philadelphia corridor?

Anyhow, yes, if both 160 meter stations on the 450 - 480 mile hauls had verticals and legal limit power, I think they could work each other.

Hmm. Might be time for an Inverted-L.

Steve- interesting that you mentioned that. I've been thinking along the same lines. I can go about 80-85 ft vertical but have problems extending horizontally out from there due to other tall trees.
Joe N3IBX

I've got a perverted L up now.

I get good reports in the later evenings from Central New York to the east coast. But nothing to write home about.

Problem is, it don't hear worth a darn. Way too noisy. A seperate receive antenna (beverage, mag loop, EWE ...) is in order.

Another thing to consider about Ls is the electrical length of the vertical section. To be real effective I found anything below 45 degrees electrical length is probably not worthwhile if there's another possiblity. The feedpoint impedence gets real low and the horizontal (high angle) componant does more harm than good.

On the other hand, you do get more low angle vertical from it than you would from a low dipole. And, they are easy to play around with in a confined space. It definetly falls in the "compromise antenna" catagory.

I agree with Bud suggesting it's possibly a compromise situation....  More to consider:

In a small, closely packed residential area, a 160M  inverted L or vertical is a tough game to pull off. To offer a better low angle component than a dipole, they require a radial field that extends at least as far as a dipole's space - and needs 360 degrees of room. This is for pure I/R efficiency. In addition, if the useful LOW angles are expected to even get out of the area, the surrounding houses/ elec wiring/plumbing, etc and other obstructions need to be clear for at least 300' or else these low angles are distorted and attenuated. Lots of coupling.  Also, the vertically polarized noise picked up from surrounding neighborhood appliances/computers, power lines, etc can negate the advantages over a dipole.  RFI can occur more easily too.

ie, To BEAT a simple 160M dipole at 60' high, they need a lot of radial work, and more importantly, they need favorable placement in the clear, much more than a dipole needs, else it will be a wash between the two systems at best. [sigh]


T

Well said Tom. I even read it all instead of drooling at Mrs. VU.

First chance I get the the perverted L is coming down. To be replaced with a dipole.
It would be interesting tho to put up a loaded dipolio of say 120' overall length and see what it does in comparison. Might give some useful info to those locked into a small lot.

Hmmm..........
 

Given my limitations of tall supports, I chose the L.  Have 44 ft. vertical (not enough) but it works fine for me.  When I say fine, I mean I talk to those I hear and many I can't give me good reports.  This is out to 12-1500 miles.  I also do not have trouble close in to my station. 

My vetical is about 50 ft. from the house and the horizontal (~120 ft) is close to my 75 meter dipole.  Given we all have some sort of limitations we have to make what we can put up work.  In my case the L is the best since I can't get a dipole more than 40 ft. up.  My only advantage is that I live in a rural area and not subject to all the noise a subruban location has. 

The other night the band was iffy at best and a guy out in AZ came on with a folded unipole matched to frequency.  I was in with a group who were using different lenght vertical radiators from 193 ft to 93 ft and one had a full wave horizontal loop at 60 ft.  My report was right in there with all them.

I have poor ground beneath the antenna and only about 16 full size radials.  There are about 15 other radials of various length beneth it.  What it come down to is we design what will fit and then make it work.  The other night I heard WB3HUZ with a fair signal, but the transmitter was cold.  I couldn't get on in time to catch HUZ, but am sure if I had been ready, we could have talked some.

I sure wish I had a flat field to put up a 1/4 wave vertical with 60 raidals under it, but am satisfied with the antenna.  It took some work to get the noise down and the radials lay over very uneven ground, but it works.  Should 160 ever settle down, I am sure I could work most of you back east.  I have my fingers crossed.

Came home from work a little early today, 1930 UTC.  Worked KC2DMC (up in the Catskills) on 160 AM.  Gave hime a 4-3, he was PW although copyable here in beautiful Chesapeake, VA.

We going to try any tests tomorrow?

Chuck

Hi Chuck,

No more high noon 160 propagation tests for now.  The next one scheduled is the High Noon 160 Meter Summer Solstice Test for July 1 and 2, 1 week after Field Day.

The band has been proven to be quite useable by the tests done last weekend; at least 300 miles range at the worst part of the day. 

The point is let's all get on and QSO.  I will set up on 1885 kHz. AM now.

Some thoughts on the Inverted L.

Take a look at the modeling. You will see, even a compromise L will beat a dipole at lower take-off angles (which is the best reason for using an L in the first place). If your main objective is to QSO with the homies within 200-300 miles, you'd be better off with a dipole, even a short one.

If the vertical section becomes too long, and the horizontal radiation too great, consider a T antenna. No matter how short the vertical section, if the horizontal portion is symmetrical, most of the horizontal radiation will be cancelled.

I used a T about five years ago. When working station at distances greater than 400-500 miles out, the T beat a 50 foot high dipole, usually significantly. The most dramatic was when I worked a station in Minnesota. On the dipole, the MN station couldn't even hear me. With the T, I was 5-by. The T only had 8 radials (about half were elevated 6-8 feet off the ground). The vertical section of the T was only 50 feet.

A separate receiving antenna is generally must, when using an L or T. Having a specialized receive antenna is a good idea on 160, even if you are using a dipole. I used a small tuned loop made out of RG-6 and tuned with a broadcast variable. It was cheap, easy to make, and worked well.

Hope to work you on 160 sometime Jim. If you'd like to make a sked, let me know. I haven't worked very many stations out west on 160 this year.

Steve, How long was the flat top section of yourT?
One could use a 75 meter dipole as a t if fed with open wire line.

The flat-top section was about 180 feet. Each end of the horizontal section hung down vertically for 30 feet, so the actual horizontal portion was 120 feet. The T was, in fact, my open-wire fed dipole, with the feeders tied together and fed against ground/radials. A 75 meter dipole could be deployed similarly.

Is this ant. on the www someplace? Just want to take a look at it. The loop here works like gangbusters on the broadcast band but I want to get it to transmit on 160 just as an exercise.

Which ant? The loop. It's receive only. I guess you could use it for TX, but you'd be PW!

Yes, the loop. I am used to being PW.

It was more or less the same as the one shown below. Mine may have been 3 or 4 feet on a side.

(http://www.amwindow.org/misc/jpg/loopschematic1a.jpg)

Full size
http://www.amwindow.org/misc/jpg/loopschematic1a.jpg

Another option, posted a few years ago by Bill, KD0HG.

TNX. Mine is very similar to the first one but matching needs work.