Title: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Art on January 08, 2006, 07:09:53 PM The first proposal, submitted by the Communications Think Tank group on the June 20, 2005, has been assigned the Rule request number RM-11305. For those who want to review the proposal: http://www.geocities.com/k3xf/Rver124F.pdf
The second proposal, submitted by the ARRL on November 4, 2005, has been assigned the Rule request number RM-11306[/size]. Hmmm, freedom vs despotism . . . thought that was already decided . . . break down that wall!! -ap Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WD8BIL on January 09, 2006, 09:12:46 AM OK Guys ......
Over the 8 years I've been involved with the Heritage side of the hobby there has been MUCH discussion on the topics addressed in these proposals. Some very heated exchanges have ensued. Whether pro or con, now is the time to speak up. Please take a few moments and file your comments on the FCC site. As the preacher says; Speak now or forever hold your piece! Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WA3VJB on January 09, 2006, 11:35:32 AM Bud is exactly right -- the best way to help the FCC decide IF any changes need to be made is to do what the ARRL has done with its bandwidth petition, and what the CTT has done with its deregulation petition.
Both become opportunities for the public (that's you) to file Formal Comments in support or dispute of the proposals. It is not yet clear to me, as a member to the CTT petition, when the Public Comment filing window opens -- it may not necessarily be at the mere issuance of an RM number for the two Petitions cited. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Art on January 10, 2006, 10:55:08 AM Indeed there will be supporters of the ARRL and/or CTT proposals who are truly invested in the greater good of amateur radio. Of course, there are those who will support or oppose on principle and I respect that as well.
Again, we see the spectre of digital or phone anarchy raised and again I reply: The CTT proposal is based on the concept of less mode based regulation and a shift of some of the resources currently policing mode based regulations to enforcement of the non interference regulations currently on the books. This applies to human, animal, vegetable, mechanical, or silicon based life forms, and whatever mode and automation status of any transmission. If they have a US amateur radio license they will be required to avoid interference with communications in process. I see no reason to leave spectrum unoccupied and subject to incorrect assessments by other services that it is unused. I see no reason to leave exclusive sections of the amateur bands allocated to specific modes that don't occupy the allocation when other mode allocations are crowded. I see no reason to restrict the majority because of a minority who will not follow regulations in any case. Some "exclusivity" would still exist, if that is important to you, in the license based sub bands as incentive (no, I don't even want to go to the incentive licensing discussion) for those holding more advanced licenses. Amateur radio operators have been recognized and respected as the gentlepeople of hobbyists from the perspective of those in the hobby and those observing our activities during communications emergencies, etc. etc. I believe this recognition is correct and we can conduct ourselves properly . . . particularly if the FCC is recognized by the licensees as stepping up enforcement of non interference regs. OK, so you have my opinion and you can take it or leave it. However, now is the time to hammer out a band plan. My partners in the CTT are probably thinking, Oh . . gee, there goes Art . . . again. However, I have done a 5 month band occupancy study (similar to my short term study presented in the CTT proposal) and find that the following occupancy exists CW~30%, Digital (all types) ~ 10%, and Phone ~ 60%. One of my discussion partners has suggested the gentlemans agreement need be no more complex than this three section plan. It would create a plan much like 160M is today, reasonably well aligned with the rest of the world, with segments of the band recognized as primarily occupied by a given mode but not exclusively occupied by it. Yes, this all goes out the window when contests occur . . . we aren't going to change that . . . So what do you think? Ideas, input? Now is a good time to thrash this out and be ready when the time comes so we can define our own plan vs others who may represent a small percentage of amateur radio ops or other interests entirely. . . . Art Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WA3VJB on January 10, 2006, 01:07:35 PM Both the CTT propsoal and the one from the group in Newington carry a 30 day Comment filing window from January 6th.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Art on January 10, 2006, 01:54:45 PM This may be of help in observing comments:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.cgi 'and this link for filing your comments: http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/upload_v2.cgi for reference the CTT proposal number is RM-11305 Everyone, please, comment. Your input is critical. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 10, 2006, 08:24:03 PM Thanks for the quick links Art ,
I just filed my comments on RM-11306 and it was very easy and painless. Just fill in the blanks. I have read all of the comments so far and they are as simple as"I am opposed "or "in favor of", to the more self-centered miserable ham type of comments. Kind of just like on the radio!! ;) After reading the two submitted RM's, 11305 and 11306. I felt the more important matter right now was to not allow the ARRL's " segregation by bandwidth" RM-11306 plan to succeed. That could be the end of the hobby as we know it or at least the beginning of the end. Now I know ,as with myself, that many that hang here on AMfone are not politically motivated, but we have a responsibility to our hobby and ourselves to comment on RM-11306. Those of you that know me understand I despise politics but this isn't politics, it is saving our hobby from the ARRL's attempt to sell us out for monetary interests and I can not stand by and watch this. CAN YOU? The participating level is important here. It will send a strong message to the FCC. I am asking all of our users and guests that frequent this site to file you feelings on RM-11306. We have almost 1000 registered users and more than twice that many daily guests that frequent AMfone. I am also asking for all to make sure we spread the word around to all Hams also because this is not an AM issue it is an amateur radio issue. I am offering my services to file for anyone that feels they can't or don't know how. All you will need to do is send me your comments along with your full legal name and address in an email an I will file your comments for you. If you feel comfortable doing this yourself then stop reading this BBS and click on the filing link Art posted above and spend 5 minutes for your hobby. We have 30 days to file and then it is out of our hands. That is 30 days from 1/6/06. If you wish that I file for you then send your comments with the info listed above to: stoprm11306@amfone.net Thank you and please take this seriously. Gary/W2INR Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 10, 2006, 09:00:12 PM Whew!
Well with that all said I wanted to comment on the CTT's initiative or RM 11305 as we know it now. What a refreshing change from the old ways where the ARRL dictated to us our hobby. We have a choice! We could have had many more!! I appreciate the hard work taken by the CTT( where the hell did that name come from ???) and what it shows us. It shows that anyone that has a strong feeling about our mode or hobby can be viewed in the eyes of the FCC at the same level as the ARRL ( I really don't know if that is good or bad) with some effort. Just like many of the other countries in the world that have ham radio, dereg seems to work just fine and it should be a direction we are lookng towards in our future in my opinion. I seem to have many opinions today don't I. ;D. We owe it to our hobby to work towards holding this all together in todays world where anyone can talk across the world in seconds with a laptop, cellphone etc. The magic is gone as far as long distance radio is concerned to the NON radio populaltion in the world, but I think there is still hope. Just like Satelite radio has kicked Broadcast Radio in the butt and I believe for the better, change (dereg or something) in our hobby could also be a positive thing if handled correctly. Take the time to read and comment on 11305. It's time to ensure our future will be as fun and interesting as the history of our hobby has been. I do not know if dereg is the answer but the work put forth in this proposal by the CTT deserves a few momnents of our time considering the time and effort put forth by another small group of amateurs for our hobby. Thanks to the CTT group and thanks for the excitement your efforts I feel are going to bring to our hobby in 2006 and maybe our future. This concludes my political postings for the year, man I am glad I got it all out of the way at once!! ;) Back to building :) Thanks G Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W3SLK on January 10, 2006, 09:58:12 PM I just finished commenting on both proposals. It was very easy. However I did find it difficult to restrain my self from typing in ARRgghhL when refering to the Nutbags from Newington.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Ed KB1HVS on January 11, 2006, 03:40:12 PM I just got this.....Proceeding RM 11305 is not open for submission to ECFS. When I tried to submit my comment in favor of the CTT proposal. Did I F -up? I was able to submit my oppoisition comment though.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 11, 2006, 03:59:45 PM Hi ed you left out the "-" I think.
RM-11305 and don't forget to voice your opinion to 11306 also . Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Ed KB1HVS on January 11, 2006, 04:01:11 PM Hi ed you left out the "-" I think. Yes I was able to do that. I will try again.RM-11305 and don't forget to voice your opinion to 11306 also . Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: k4kyv on January 11, 2006, 04:13:14 PM As expected, this ARRL proposal has already brought the anti-AM element out of the woodwork:
Proceeding: RM-11306 Type Code: CO Date Received/Adopted: 01/10/06 Date Released/Denied: Document Type: COMMENT Total Pages: 1 File Number/Community: DA/FCC Number: Filed on Behalf of: Richard L. Tannehill Filed By: Attorney/Author Name: Document Date: Complete Mailing Address: 5410 W. diana Ave. Glendale, AZ 85302 -4870 Brief Comment I agree with the ARRL petition for regulation by bandwidth, and support it, with one major exception. The League claims that their plan does not favor one mode over another. Not true. It favors AM-DSB operators. It would allow for 9 KHz AM modulation, in bands which otherwise are limited to 3.5 KHz. These include the lower HF bands, which are quite crowded at times. The solution is simply to restrict AM-DSB to above 28.5 MHz. (10 meters & above) Amateurs and the league have been upset in the past over wide-SSB modulation, meant to improve audio quality. AM is no different from this. It is an old modulation that adds nothing to advancing the technological art, and should be confined to bands where there is ample spectrum available. Richard L. Tannehill P.E. - W7RT ARRL Life Member (45-years amateur licensed) Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 11, 2006, 05:12:09 PM That's right Don,
As I stated in my post above this could be the end of things as we know it. The ARRLs proposal does not mention the bandplan at all which is suspicious to me. Why wouldn't they? Giving them this victory would give them Carte Blanc on our hobby in the future. We don't have to agree with either proposal but in my opinion we must oppose the ARRLs proposal if we do anything. Participation in this matter is important to us and all amateurs. I have asked Paul K2ORC to keep a daily updated tally on the results from the comments. I feel we all need to know how this is playing out and having a running tally here is easier then going to the FCC's site. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Paul, K2ORC on January 12, 2006, 08:53:37 AM I will be trying to update the daily count on each petition by 9:00 am ET. You'll find the results in the Sticky thread Daily tally on RM-11305 and RM-11306 here in the QSO Forum.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Glenn NY4NC on January 12, 2006, 10:34:11 AM Done!.... How long will it take for comments to show after being posted?
We don't have to agree with either proposal but in my opinion we must oppose the ARRLs proposal if we do anything. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WA1GFZ on January 12, 2006, 11:00:52 AM I find it very easy to be against 11306 but on the other hand deregulation has really screwed up the power industry and I have never seen a case where it worked.
I have to consider a kid running 50 watts on cw while some slop bucket moron running 10 KW driving him off the air. I have to give 11305 some thought. There are a large number of AHs who will spread crappy operating across more bandwidth if the bands are deregulated. I do think digital modes can share space with CW a digital mode. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Paul, K2ORC on January 12, 2006, 11:11:22 AM Done!.... How long will it take for comments to show after being posted? Hi Glenn. My experience has been that comments will show up the following business day. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Art on January 12, 2006, 12:23:18 PM Hi Frank,
One could also cite telephone deregulation. Long distance before deregulation was a lot more expensive than it is now. But this is not about cheaper electricity or phone service due to regulation removal. It is about amateur radio operators. We have been recognized as one of the most gentlemanly and public service minded hobbies and justifiably so. The 10KW miscreants are a lot fewer than the solid ops who run a tight station. Further the 10KW gang won't follow more or less regulation anyway. The good news is they are a minority. The bad news is they stick out like a sore thumb. Sen. Lieberman provided a great analogy; there are 27 million Iraquis and 10 thousand terrorists ruining the country for everyone. So, the bottom line is more regulation restricts good ops because of the behavior of the 10KW twits. That's just not right. This ends my political rant for the year as well. -ap Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WA1GFZ on January 12, 2006, 12:49:53 PM I see your point Art but I don't think much of mr lieberman.
Just listen to 75 phone and you will see my concern. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Paul, K2ORC on January 12, 2006, 01:17:43 PM The rules are already in place for dealing with bad actors. They just need to be enforced.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WA1HZK on January 12, 2006, 02:05:46 PM Comments were supplied.
There is less than 50 comments. Half of them would have us slow roasted over a large fire. Don't delay. File your comments now or start selling your stuff on E-Bay! If AM is Outlawed, Only Outlaws..... You know the story. This is important. Get off your Ass and do it. Thank You Keith Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Todd, KA1KAQ on January 12, 2006, 04:09:47 PM Got mine sent. While I'm not quite up to snuff on all of the IARU requirements and how much it obligates us, I do think that RM-11305 is a big step in the right direction and that 11306 is a big step down the road to demise for ham radio.
One thing that I firmly believe: we won't attract more people to amateur radio by making it more like the internet, or a cell phone, or a video game, or whatever else. While I'm not against other modes including digital, it's in our best interest to maintain the hands on, human factor in it. I think that the ARRL proposal, while dressed up in such a way as to appear to be doing this, makes it pretty clear what they see for the future of ham radio. Hopefully the rest of the folks out there will make their voices heard. I doesn't get much easier. :) Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 12, 2006, 05:23:42 PM The important issue in my opinion is 11306. That is dangerous ground there. 11305 offers a direction for our future and whether it passes or not is not the issue. The issue is the proposal was accepted and is be considered right next to the ARRL!! No more one sheriff towns for our hobby. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: k4kyv on January 13, 2006, 12:38:36 AM Just thinking out loud at this time, still trying to organise ideas for comments. But first I am carefully reading over and digesting the petitions, highlighting pertinent points.
One idea that comes to mind right away is that the stated objectives of the ARRL petition could be accomplished simply by adding additional "emission standards" to the existing table in Sec. 97.307 of the regulations, to the effect that an amateur station may transmit other modes not specifically mentioned in the list of authorised emission types for each wavelength band, so long as the "necessary bandwidth" does not exceed X number of kHz. We should keep in mind the important distinction between "occupied bandwidth" and "necessary bandwidth" as discussed in the petition. As I read it, the proposed bandwidth figures would be guidelines replacing the existing mode designators, not specific limits to the actual bandwidth used, just as there are no specific bandwidth limits in the present rules. The biggest problem I have is with relegating AM to a "footnote." And there is no guarantee that the FCC would come out with a proposal identical to what the ARRL has petitioned. They might just conveniently omit any "footnote" for AM, as in Docket 20777. Recall what happened with incentive licensing. The original petition was to return to the old Class A/ Class B restricted phone band system, but the FCC instead came up with the idea of dividing the bands into segments. NBFM which is presently allowed in the lower frequency phone bands, as I read the petition, would be eliminated along with ISB. One form of band segmentation I might still go along with would to limit automatic and semi-automatic operation to a narrow portion of each band, for the same reason that repeaters are limited to certain portions of the VHF/UHF bands. Regarding RM-11305, I would take it a step further and eliminate the licence class subbands as well, since the concept of Incentive Licensing has pretty much already been gutted by previous "restructuring." For example, what is the point of continuing to have Extra Class cw subbands, now that the code speed requirement for Extra has been reduced to the former Novice level, and is now the same as that of all the other licence classes allowed to use cw on hf? Originally, these choice segments for working DX provided an "incentive" to increase one's code speed to 20 WPM, but now the FCC is proposing to get rid of the code test altogether. The "crowded conditions" and QRM the anti-AM'ers are whining about could be much more effectively alleviated by opening up the vast wasteland of unused spectrum below 3700 kc/s, than by outlawing AM. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Ed KB1HVS on January 13, 2006, 09:37:40 AM Hi ed you left out the "-" I think. The FCC Acknowledges Receipt of Comments From …RM-11305 and don't forget to voice your opinion to 11306 also . Edward Keyes …and Thank You for Your Comments Your Confirmation Number is: '2006113937257 ' Date Received: Jan 13 2006 Docket: RM-11305 Number of Files Transmitted: 1 Dunno why I had trouble. Maybe I was getting QRMed ??? I am very much in support of RM-11305 and i hope it id adopted. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WD8BIL on January 13, 2006, 09:54:05 AM Quote Just listen to 75 phone and you will see my concern. Frank,the 75 meter problem is a factor of overcrowding for the most part. Allowing any mode anywhere in the band would help reduce the friction. Consider driving: There's far more road rage on congested freeways than there is on country roads. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: John Holotko on January 13, 2006, 01:10:23 PM Quote Just listen to 75 phone and you will see my concern. Frank,the 75 meter problem is a factor of overcrowding for the most part. Allowing any mode anywhere in the band would help reduce the friction. Consider driving: There's far more road rage on congested freeways than there is on country roads. Exactly right. I never hear the kinds of problems when I listen down on 160 that I hear on 75. Likewise I seldom experience the kind of problems on 40 that I do on 75. The more breathing room the better. The more relaxed it becomes. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Pete, WA2CWA on January 13, 2006, 01:37:43 PM One idea that comes to mind right away is that the stated objectives of the ARRL petition could be accomplished simply by adding additional "emission standards" to the existing table in Sec. 97.307 of the regulations, to the effect that an amateur station may transmit other modes not specifically mentioned in the list of authorised emission types for each wavelength band, so long as the "necessary bandwidth" does not exceed X number of kHz. I'm willing to bet that the petitioners would still be happy if they only got this. Quote We should keep in mind the important distinction between "occupied bandwidth" and "necessary bandwidth" as discussed in the petition. As I read it, the proposed bandwidth figures would be guidelines replacing the existing mode designators, not specific limits to the actual bandwidth used, just as there are no specific bandwidth limits in the present rules. The biggest problem I have is with relegating AM to a "footnote." And there is no guarantee that the FCC would come out with a proposal identical to what the ARRL has petitioned. They might just conveniently omit any "footnote" for AM, as in Docket 20777. Recall what happened with incentive licensing. The original petition was to return to the old Class A/ Class B restricted phone band system, but the FCC instead came up with the idea of dividing the bands into segments. Your first two sentences are correct and the significance of "occupied" vs. "necessary" bandwidth seems to always get lost in any discussions. Further, your phrase "relegating AM to a footnote" tweaked me early on when I saw it in the early drafts, but Sumner and Company were unwilling to change the Table of bands and defined bandwidths to include the 9 KHz(for AM) on each specified HF band. Quote One form of band segmentation I might still go along with would to limit automatic and semi-automatic operation to a narrow portion of each band, for the same reason that repeaters are limited to certain portions of the VHF/UHF bands. If you agree in part with RM-11306, then your statement above, which is an excellent proposal to limit this type of operation by legal, not voluntary methods, to portions of each band, should be added to your comments. [/size] Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: k4kyv on January 13, 2006, 02:17:59 PM I wanna make sure about this -- we're only supposed to provide comments to the two RM's, NOT to comments submitted for the RM's from others, right? Mark K3MSB You can submit comments specifically in response to someone else's comment, and enter it as a "reply comment." Usually the deadline for reply comments runs 30 days or so beyond the cutoff date for initial comments. Since this would be in response to petitions by individuals, not a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking by the FCC, I am not 100% sure if the same reply comment procedures apply. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Pete, WA2CWA on January 13, 2006, 02:28:29 PM I wanna make sure about this -- we're only supposed to provide comments to the two RM's, NOT to comments submitted for the RM's from others, right? Mark K3MSB I personally would not get into "he said" " he said" from other comment posters kind of stuff when you file a comment. The issue is the petitions and their content. Of course, with carefully worded english, you can always refute other posters comments indirectly. i.e. Poster says "AM sucks - not good for anything"; you say AM has made me a better amateur radio operator and person, and I hug my wife and kids every day, etc. etc. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 13, 2006, 04:34:18 PM Typically the he said, she said's are ignored by the FCC . The are looking for comments on the proposed items only Mark.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: k4kyv on January 13, 2006, 09:11:24 PM Typically the he said, she said's are ignored by the FCC . The are looking for comments on the proposed items only Mark. The FCC invites your response to comments filed by others. To make a specific reply to comments already submitted by another party, open the Electronic Comment Filing System web page at http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/ecfs/ (http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/ecfs/). To the right of the page, find ECFS Main Links. Click on Submit a Filing. That will bring up a page entitled Electronic Comment File Submission. On the "Cover Sheet" form, go to item 12. Document Type (required) . The space should already be filled with the word COMMENT. Now click on the downward pointing arrow at the extreme right of the space. This will bring up a long menu of filings. Scroll down and click on REPLY TO COMMENTS. Then follow the instructions under Send Comment Files to FCC (Attachments) to submit your response. Title: FCC Filings Post by: WA3VJB on January 14, 2006, 09:33:53 AM It may clutter up both your response and the database of Comments filed if you were to take the time to confront the Comments of others filed in this initial phase of the proceeding.
The REPLY phase is consecutive, not concurrent, and is the place where such rejoinders are anticipated. The Electronic Comment Filing System, according to how other rulemaking proceedings look, is not ordinarily in the style of a BBS where people have a floating conversation on points and counter-points. That said, if you file a Comment toward the end of the 30-day period, you will be equipped with knowledge of points others have made, and can incorporate them into your Comment either directly or by inference. Although it is not stated in the instructions for the ECFS, the opening date and duration of the Comment and Reply Comment sequences are important windows as to whether your submission is accepted in what is known as a "timely filed fashion," in effect, constraining Comments to the Comment phase (30 days from Jan. 6th) and Reply Comments after that. Many people include in the filing itself the date, as well as their name, call sign, and callbook address. This allows anyone including the agency to print out your document with all the information. Notice that the ECFS header contains your identification and the date you filed it, but this does not appear in your actual document. Paul/VJB Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 14, 2006, 09:41:11 AM Don you are correct but - - - - are we going to end up in a pssing contest with someones comment that deserves no attention at all or address the item that most threatens the hobby? That would be 11306 not discontents and miserable ham types.
I say address the issue clearly not qualify the idiots in our hobby. ADDED COMMENT: This is my first time in this process so I may be wrong but I feel we need to stay focused on what the main issue is. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: k4kyv on January 14, 2006, 04:43:34 PM The following web page has appeared, in opposition to RM-11305.
http://www.w8ji.com/rm-11305.htm (http://www.w8ji.com/rm-11305.htm) There is a link off that page that goes to: http://www.w8ji.com/supporters.htm (http://www.w8ji.com/supporters.htm) Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: kc2ifr on January 14, 2006, 05:52:49 PM Boy......after reading the stuff on this a$$ holes site.....I cant believe the negitive spin he puts on all the "facts". This is the kind of lies and half truths that we have to put up with. Kinda makes u wonder what is happening to this hobby.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Steve - WB3HUZ on January 14, 2006, 06:51:40 PM One must remember, W8JI is a weak signal, CW, DX snob who thinks such operation is the epitome of amateur radio. All other activities must defer to his personal interests. That is tyranny. Thus, thus the democratic approach of the CCT is an anathema to him. His arguments only follow, but they are flawed since they are based on worst case hypotheticals, false straw-men and ad-hominem. It would be funny, if it weren't so sad.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WV Hoopie on January 14, 2006, 08:09:46 PM W8JI: More Sh** in him than a Christmas turkey. ;D
73's Hoopie, Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Steve - WB3HUZ on January 14, 2006, 09:05:29 PM I made some claims in my previous post. Below I substantiate. My comments in bold.
==== If you support the ARRL's RM-11306 plan and file comments, please mention 160 needing regulated band segments. To be fair and get a good picture of how RM-11305 can affect us, we should look at operators who support RM-11305. These are the operators who are pushing for freedom to move to be able to operate any bandwidth mode on any frequency their license class allows. Ad-hominem. The claim here is just because someone supports 11305, they are bad characters. My God! These guys want freedom. They must be evil. But he did preface it with, to be fair, so I guess if what follows is unfair, it's OK. After that, please look at what RM-11305 means in the text below. You'll see why it is imperative RM-11305 be stopped cold. The text below are just W8JI opinions, based on flawed analysis, faulty logic, and no documentation. What the proposal means is something completely different. Notice, he does not request the reader to go and actually read 11305. Instead, just take his word for it. This is taken right from RM-11305 on the FCC site: "This petition is centered on the premise that all operating interests and emission types enjoy equal status in the amateur service, with emergency communications taking priority. Operation of an amateur station includes a "listen before transmit" function that involves searching for a vacant spot on the dial. Recognizing that all non-emergency communications are of a hobbyist and experimental nature, we propose access to any vacant frequency for any amateur activity within the scope of privileges granted by license class." What They Want The self-anointed "Think Tank" is asking ALL FCC regulations and restrictions of who-does-what-where, within a license class, be removed!!! Anywhere you decide to set your dial you would be free to operate any mode. Notice the derisive name calling. The Think Tank is no more self-appointed than he is with his comments. His tyrannical nature shines through here. "How dare these self-appointed one speak or even have an opinion." Notice his objection to freedom. Quite revealing. He also utilizes incomplete information or a half truth by claiming the proposal means that "Anywhere you decide to set your dial you would be free to operate any mode." He left off the part about a band plan and the bigger part about not interfering or following the frequency is in use rule. He attempts to pander to the worst fears of others, by hinting at complete anarchy and massive interference. He's laying the ground work for later claims. What This Means Let's consider what anyone could legally do as an Extra class holder if RM-11305 is adopted as written. The following is the result of RM11305 passing: I like AM phone, and I could go on any mode anywhere on any amateur band. There would be no FCC restrictions. What I do would be up to my own good nature and judgment. It's early in the day, the band is pretty dead. I decide to start talking to my buddies 200 miles away on 7015 kHz AM. We get in a 10 minute per transmission roundtable, and the occupation of the frequency lasts well after sunset. During that time, my Viking I driving an amplifier is occupying from 7000 to 7030 kHz with a -50dBc or stronger signal at 1500 watts PEP. I now legally raise the noise and QRM floor substantially for anyone operating between 7000 and 7030kHz or higher. I have effectively shut down the entire useable 40M long distance CW portion. No one can do anything about it! I was there first, so the channel is mine. This tactic is called a strawman. The idea is to put forth the absolute worst case scenario (at least to people like W8JI, DX hounds) and argue from it, as though such a situation would pertain universally. Such an approach is flawed. It's a fallacy. My friends want to try a new mode. We go to 14,035 KHz FM and operate until daylight on a puny band with 15kHz wide FM. Since we were there first, or at least we thought we were, we stay long after the band opens to Asia. Even if we knew better, we could simply pretend we were there first and deny all requests to move. We could take out 14,027 to 14,043 kHz over much of the world with 1500 watt FM signals and be legal. Another strawman, invalid as the previous. If you are on PSK working a PSK station and I can't hear you or recognize your signal, I could open right up with 1.5kW SSB or worse yet with 1.5kW PEP HiFi AM right on top of you. It would be up to you to get my attention and ask me to move, and up to me to be a "nice guy" and move. Another strawman, invalid as the previous. He also plays to the worst fears or digital operators - the dreaded phone interference. If I hear a SSB station on 3500kHz USB, and wanted to work him....I could. Never mind that W3AAA is trying to work a European on 3505 and the IM3 products of my transmitter at -33dB PEP have placed a 3/4 watt SSB splatter on 3505. Another strawman, invalid as the previous. I love how he just pulls numbers out of the air. No factual basis for any of it. In my opinion, the above scenarios coupled with the obvious attitude of supporters is what makes this proposal moronic. No intelligent thoughtful considerate amateur operator would ever think amateur radio would benefit or improve by allowing any operator to operate any mode on any frequency within his class of license, yet this is what RM-11305 asks for! A complete mischaracterization of the proposal. 11305 still calls for a band plan. Also notice the name calling again. In other words, if you disagree with me you are a moron, unintelligent, thoughtless and inconsiderate. Check out this logic. "... the above scenarios [which are bogus strawmen] coupled with the obvious attitude of supporters is what makes this proposal moronic." Huh? How would the attitude of supporters have anything to do with scenarios he MADE UP? He has not even supplied any evidence (a statement by ANY supporter, let alone ALL) as to the attitude of the supporters. Further, he lumps ALL supporters together, a dangerous thing to do, in general. It's even worse to do so without providing any data. This is a lame attempt to link any supporter of the proposal with the type of operation described. Since he claims such operation is bad, those who support it, by extension, are bad. This amounts to either a blatant attempt at smear tactics, or weak and faulty logic leading to a foolish conclusion. Neither one is acceptable. Right now, an Extra class licensee can operate CW anywhere in the amateur radio bands. Using his logic, such freedom should be banned because a CW operator could jam an SSB net providing emergency comms for Hurricane Katrina, resulting in hundreds of deaths. Yea, I can be absurd too. Please, let's not let any small group drive a nail in the coffin of amateur radio by turning it into a licensed form of freeband CB where anyone can do anything they want! Ah yes. A bogus amateur radio argument is never complete without the obligitory reference to CB radio. What no reference to Hitler, or someone's mother? He also makes the claim the proposal will drive a nail in the coffin of amateur radio but provides no evidence or proof (sorry, stawmen don't count). This is a gratuitous assertion and, as such, is just a easily gratuitously denied. RM-11305 will not drive a nail in the coffin of amateur radio. See, how easy this bogus argument stuff is to spew forth? A west coast amateur said it best in the following comment from the Topband Reflector: "Any self-appointed group that has the arrogance to call themselves the "Communications Think Tank" gives me the shivers to start with, but the content of their proposal lays waste to even the pretense of intelligent thought. I'm not at all against change in our hobby, and I'm willing to accept the fact that change might come in the form of regulations that negatively impact my own operating preferences. I'm trying to keep an open mind on RM-11306 from the ARRL (band allocations by bandwidth), but RM-11305 from the "Communications Think Tank" is just plain stupid. It would be interesting if a group put a proposal forth that perfectly agreed with his views, if the name Communications Think Tank would be so unacceptable to him. When one does not have a cogent argument at the core of the issue, they will nitpick at the periphery. Stating that a name a bland as Communication Think Tank gives you shivers, comes off as a histrionic. Here's an excerpt from the filing: "Our proposal, if approved, would reduce potential friction among operators when bands are in heavy use and congested, especially during contests. Greater flexibility in selection of operating frequencies will enhance cooperation between those who choose to participate in organized operating events and those who do not." What kind of thought process could come up with that conclusion? Yes, what kind of thought process? Illustrate why the idea is bad or the thought process is flawed. That's right, when you have nothing, just ask open-ended questions. RM-11305 goes on to suggest that the ARRL and the Official Observer system would establish and enforce new and flexible voluntary band/mode plans ... as if any of that has ever worked well in the past. It's never been done in the past, so any references to such are simply incorrect. WD8BIL appears to be the leader/spokesman of the "Communications Think Tank", and this quote from him (per Amateur Radio Newsline Report 1455 dated July 1, 2005) might give some insight into the real intent of the petition: "Under heavy - for example - phone operation right now, particularly on some of the lower bands where overcrowding in the peak hours is just horrendous it gives us the opportunity to spread out into areas of the bands that are under utilized." Yep, we wouldn't want to fully utilize the spectrum alloted. That would be bad! RM-11305 is so silly I find it difficult to believe the FCC would give it serious consideration, but who knows these days." Not one cogent argument given. Not one rebuttal. Just claim it's silly and poof, it is. Magic! And W8JI thinks this guy said it best. Wow! Let Your Voice Be Heard! We really can't afford to allow a group of AM operators hijack any frequency they want. While they cleverly write the petition as something for the good of all, the fact is the bands work really well right now for most people. The only operators without enough room are the people who choose to run wide modes or choose to use substandard equipment. They are the frequency hogs, and they need to be kept penned up. We need to discourage band hogging, not encourage it. "Keep them penned up." Those who run a mode different than W8JI are akin to animals. Lovely. Also notice the false premise: only those who run wide modes (not further defined) and those with substandard equipment (once again, not further defined) don't have enough room. Seems to me, many who run sideband complain about having too little room. I guess W8JI considers SSB a wide mode, anyone who runs it a frequency hog and a user of substandard equipment. Nothing like condemning the vast majority those who operate on HF. Also notice the sense of ownership of frequencies. If an AMer wants to use a frequency, any frequency, even if it is not in use, they are hijacking it. Last time I checked my dictionary, hijack, when used as a verb, meant to take arbitrarily or by force. How could an AMer (or any other operator) take an unused frequency by force, unless one thinks they are entitled to the frequency EVEN when they are not using it? And this guy has the nerve to call the Communications Think Tank arrogant. To file against RM-11305 please click on this FCC link and fill in the form. You can type in a "brief comment". Please help save amateur radio from crackpots like K1MAN! I'd like this hobby to last many more years, and not be turned into licensed CB. Of course the jammers and wideband phone operators want more space, but should digital and CW operators give up space to accommodate those who use three or more times the necessary bandwidth for broadcast-style QSO's? OK, now we get a substantial argument, a reference to K1MAN and another one to CB. Not! Notice how he equates wideband phone operators (whatever this means, since he still hasn't defined it) to jammers. When I speak of faulty logic, this is what I mean. No reasonable person would equate illegal operation (jamming) to legal operation phone (be it AM or SSB - both are perfectly legal under Part 97). But when you don't really have a legitimate argument, you have to resort to such lowbrow tactics. Also notice the flawed term necessary bandwidth. This is another undefined term that appears to mean any bandwidth wider than W8JI deems appropriate. Since all amateur radio communication, other than emergency communications, are non-essential, any mode/bandwidth uses more than is necessary. It's ALL unnecessary communication. What, pray tell, may a "broadcast-style QSO" be? Even when this guy makes up terms, he is illogical. A broadcast is a one-way transmission. A QSO is a two (multi-way) transmission. Can you say oxymoron? I think not, and I hope you agree! Let's not turn 500,000 licensed amateurs who are now going into a "no-code" phase loose on the world. We don't need to add to the existing problems, we need to reduce them. We need solid bandwidth guidelines, not rules that encourage bad behavior. Yes, he thinks not. Clearly, no thinking going on! Yet another number pulled from the air. Where is even one piece of documentation showing 500,000 amateurs are "going into a no-code phase" (whatever this means)? Even if this were true, it is irrelevant, unless you believe learning the code will ensure you never become one of those dreaded wideband phone operators who hijacks frequencies. This entire piece is rather disjointed, undocumented, illogical and just plain incorrect. If this is the best effort to be mounted against 11305, we have little to fear. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W3SLK on January 14, 2006, 10:36:50 PM Steve said:
Quote Can you say oxymoron? No, but what he should be saying is "Imamoron!" Brought to you by the fine designer of Ameritron amps. Tom Rauch. To paraphrase Rich Measures"...Rauch means smoke..." I think he's been smoking too much lately. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Jim, W5JO on January 15, 2006, 09:24:06 AM Rauch is on Boatanchors@the porch pushing his agenda. If anyone pays to subscribe to it, they could take him to task.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WD8BIL on January 15, 2006, 11:16:34 AM Tom has much personally invested in the status quo. When that happens, all threats are targets for the type of un-substantiated attacks as this.
Most reasonable people see it for what it is. Knowing Tom personally, I fully understand where he's coming from and , more importantly, WHY. Our proposal comes from a belief, at least on my part, in the inherent good. Yes, we have some rotton apples, and they make a lot of noise. But, for the most part, operators are civil. Obviously, Tom has a low opinion of phone operators and people in general. This comes across very strong in his rantings. We all have an idea of how things should be. In the end, his is ONE voice.... same as mine. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Steve - WB3HUZ on January 15, 2006, 11:20:56 AM "Yes, we have some rotton apples, and they make a lot of noise."
This is another fallacious argument used by W8JI. It's called spotlighting. You point out the very visible few of a group and the claim everyone associated with the visible few are bad too. And by extension, so are their ideas. It's rather sad that he chooses to utilize arguments that wouldn't muster in a high school debate club. I'm glad he's speaking out. It will only help the cause of 11305. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Ed KB1HVS on January 15, 2006, 11:22:13 AM W8JI Has a FB webste and I enjoyed what I read there. Until I got to the RM-11305 supporters page. Apparently some of the comments, opinions and quotes he has used from the AM community are very much taken out of context. Cant get anywhere with me by doing that. AM is what drew me into this hobby and I enjoy the mode and the people who use it. Naturally I will do what I can to try to protect it.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W3NP on January 15, 2006, 01:18:57 PM I was just reading the latest comments on RM-11306 and W4VR has now made an additional comment which is aimed at "lawless" AM'ers that are beginning to '"deviate" from the "bandplan" and are now running loose all over the band wrecking havoc on what he infers to be the only legitimate phone mode - SSB. He is also ( like W8JI) advocating penning us up on assigned frequencies.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: John Holotko on January 15, 2006, 01:57:22 PM The following web page has appeared, in opposition to RM-11305. http://www.w8ji.com/rm-11305.htm (http://www.w8ji.com/rm-11305.htm) There is a link off that page that goes to: http://www.w8ji.com/supporters.htm (http://www.w8ji.com/supporters.htm) I don't understand his point. Matter of fact he doesn'tseem to be making any point. If anything he is also contradicting himself. He is certainly not making a viable case for why the bands should't be open. First of all he accuses AM'ers of wasting space but then he says he uses AM. If AM is so wasteful then why bother ? Then he praises AM'ers and says he greatly respect them but then goes on to talk about AM'ers as a fringe group and as the scourge of ham radio. Why is that ? If he respects AM'ers why is he so offended by the idea of AM'ers having more space with which to operate ? If AM'ers are such a small fringe group as he claims then why is he so threatened by a proposal to open up the bands. If anything it would benefit non-Amer's just as much or more than AM'er's. Look how much underused space exists on the lower half of the 75meter band which AM'ers and SSB'ers cannot use because we are not allowed to. Would it not benefit AM'ers and SSB'ers alike if that space could be utilized. We have a similar band plan already in place on 160 meters and I don't see what the problem is. This guys reasoning will only assure the bands remain segregated, overcrowded and nobody gains anything, not the AM'ers not the non-AM"ers. So, other than making a web page and tooting his own horn (or hoisting his own petard) I don't see what point this gentleman is making other than saying, "lets keep the bands overcrowded and overused or underused as they are now". Makes no sense to me. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Art on January 15, 2006, 02:33:44 PM I think you have hit it on the nose. . . Mr. Rauch seems a bit Baxtardish . . . look up Rich Measures and Tom Rauch in the same google . . . I don't think you will get a felony affidavit but he has been known to use threats of law suits to pursue his technical disagreements. 'another facet of the gem . . .
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: John Holotko on January 15, 2006, 02:54:01 PM I also like the way he picks on the no-code operators and calls to restrict them. Instead of taking his snobbish approach and turning our backs on the new operators and restricting them wouldn't it make more sense if we as hams reach out to them and try to encourage them and teach them to do REAL radio the RIGHT way ?? Unfortunately guys like =w8ji prefer the turn your back on em and then piss and moan approach. Guys like this do little to promote and expand the hobby. Instead they show a self centered, snobbish side that if anything will turn off new ops. and discourage them. I also love the way he equatea the AM community and the new ops/with K1MAN. Fortunatelyguyslike w8ji are in a minority, I think there are a lot more hams that would rather expand their horizons, open to new ideas, and embrace young new operators in a positive light and help them to hone their skills and become good ops. Unfortunately w8ji seems to come from a narrow world that cannot accept new people and new ideas.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2INR on January 15, 2006, 03:24:46 PM It just goes to show you what "dumbing down" the hobby has done for us.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: John Holotko on January 15, 2006, 03:43:14 PM Mr w8ji also fails to explain why he feels it is so important that 160 meters have mode segregated band plan. Does he feel that whatever phone is on 160 needs to be crammed into a narrow space. From what I've heard of 160 it gets along quite well with no segregated band plan.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Art on January 15, 2006, 05:23:59 PM "If it is true that you get what you expect from life - "expect the worst and you won't be disappointed" or alternatively, "you get from life what you put into it" ("as ye sow, so shall ye reap" if you prefer the biblical equivalent). An internet search will provide countless cases of "thought structuring" an outcome in advance."
"It is understood by all that sloppiness, carelessness, waste, and indifference to the desires of others will be punished. Of course, the punishment is not physical, administered by a malevolent authority, but rather the punishment of not getting what one wants, or least not as much as one wants, because people have chosen to deal with others instead." If you cannot relate to these quotes you cannot possibly feel comfortable with freedom and, peripherally, the CTT proposal. Ultimately, you will get what you expect, ARRL, CTT, or FCC mandate not withstanding. Comments against the ARRL and CTT proposals far exceed comments for. And yet, the same people who comment against them complain about the state of the bands today, want to outlaw modes, want to exclude others from "their frequencies", and deride those who try to make even their world a better place. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this? Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W2VW on January 15, 2006, 05:46:01 PM I'm ordering some Nichrome wire first thing Monday.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: WD8BIL on January 15, 2006, 05:47:27 PM Quote Am I the only one who sees the irony in this? No Art, you're not. ie.... "Careful what you wish for. It may come true." Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: W3SLK on January 15, 2006, 06:07:40 PM I dropped a line to Rich Measure about his 'arch enemy's' latest antics. To quote what he said, "Tom has a history of contradicting Tom.... (and) it's funny but in a sad way" Like Art said, you reap what you sow.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: w3jn on January 15, 2006, 09:22:32 PM He is rather the master of the ad hominem attack. I am apparently excoriated because of the article I wrote on receivers that is posted on this site. It appears that all he got from that article is that I am into "hifi AM". Yep, Hammy, that's my ONLY interest in life... ;D
It's interesting that he doesn't have a "contact me" link on his website. Wonder why...? Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Steve - WB3HUZ on January 15, 2006, 09:57:34 PM If he posted the article without your permission, he is also a thief.
It's called projection. His life is clearly heavily intertwined with amateur radio. He is just projecting his emotions and views onto you. Once again, a product of emotional, convoluted and illogical thinking is shown by W8JI, (OK, I'm being kind calling it thinking). As Gary said, a sad result of the dumbing down of amateur radio. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Glenn NY4NC on January 16, 2006, 09:27:35 AM That's pretty obvious... the only possible reason for someone suggesting a segregated band plan on 160 would be their fear of increased AM activity. (which has been the case these past couple of years)
I operate CW on 160 and everyone seems to be good about not operating phone in the lower 25khz segment even though it's legal....and on the other hand, CW ops don't operate above 1825... even though it's legal. Cooperation between phone and CW operators on 160... it works... Cooperation between SSB'ers and AM'ers on 160?....well.... how about a show of hands,,, how many time have you been jammed when attempting to carry on an AM QSO somewhere other than 1885 or 1985? Mr w8ji also fails to explain why he feels it is so important that 160 meters have mode segregated band plan. Does he feel that whatever phone is on 160 needs to be crammed into a narrow space. From what I've heard of 160 it gets along quite well with no segregated band plan. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: John Holotko on January 16, 2006, 01:08:50 PM That's pretty obvious... the only possible reason for someone suggesting a segregated band plan on 160 would be their fear of increased AM activity. (which has been the case these past couple of years) I operate CW on 160 and everyone seems to be good about not operating phone in the lower 25khz segment even though it's legal....and on the other hand, CW ops don't operate above 1825... even though it's legal. Cooperation between phone and CW operators on 160... it works... Cooperation between SSB'ers and AM'ers on 160?....well.... how about a show of hands,,, how many time have you been jammed when attempting to carry on an AM QSO somewhere other than 1885 or 1985? Mr w8ji also fails to explain why he feels it is so important that 160 meters have mode segregated band plan. Does he feel that whatever phone is on 160 needs to be crammed into a narrow space. From what I've heard of 160 it gets along quite well with no segregated band plan. Yes, I agree. It appears that w8ji has an intense fear of the phone modes and in particular of AM. Thus rather than present real data and real fact he has to resort to belittling the AM operator and the equipment many of us use. What I find amazing is that he refers to our transmitters as old 1950's technology. Apparently he is unaware of class E and the reality that many AM operators, myself included, actually incorporate a wide range of technologies, both old and modern state of the art. Many of us are well versed in the old school i.e. heavy iron, vacume tubes, etc. as well as the new school, solid state, power MOSFETS, digital signal processing, computers, and al the various maniffestations of todays high tech. In that light the AM'ers are among on of the most diverse and well versed groups spanning an extremely broad range of technologies from the old to the state of the art. Stever/HUZ summed it up beautifully a few posts earlier where he gave a line byline synopsus of w8ji's claims and rants. The way he is clearly using the strawman and worst case scenarios to generate FUD yet with no data or substance to back up his claims. And yes, gentlemans agreements and voluntaryband plans do work. Time has proven they work very well. It's ironic that w8ji calls for mandatory segregation of 160 meters yet 160 meters is a prime example of the fact that a mandatory FCC enforced band plan is not needed. John/N2IZE Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: Paul, K2ORC on January 17, 2006, 10:26:34 AM Not to be outdone, the ARRL's website gives CTT some coverage.
Quote Group petitions FCC to eliminate segregation of emission modes (Jan 12, 2006) -- A group calling itself the Communications Think Tank has filed a Petition for Rule Making asking the FCC "to discontinue mandatory segregation of emission modes and the activities using these modes in the Amateur Service." Instead, the petitioners would substitute "a voluntary system of coordination" on the bands. The FCC has designated the petition as RM-11305. Comments are due by February 6. The petitioners assert "there is a chronic need to allow greater leeway in selecting a place to operate" on the ham bands. "We propose ending mode-based subbands in the Amateur Radio Service, and we seek affirmation of established operator responsibility against interference as part of this request for greater latitude in frequency selection," the petitioners state. A survey, "An Analysis of Band Occupancy by Mode" accompanies the group's petition. Title: ARRL coverage Post by: WA3VJB on January 17, 2006, 11:04:15 AM That was sweet of them to mention what the FCC considers the counterpoint to the League's proposal, a page or two down from where they've got theirs placed on the ARRL web page.
Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: nq5t on February 05, 2006, 08:28:24 PM It just goes to show you what "dumbing down" the hobby has done for us. I just read this crazy thing. Frankly, I think we should beat both rotten ideas to death with the Wouff Hong. With one, we get digital crap everywhere, and once someone notices the "exception", no AM. WIth the other we simply get crap everywhere. This "self-regulation" thing is a farce. We are able to do it now, somewhat, because there's an over-reaching framework. Without the framework, we'll just have anarchy. What the h*ll were we thinkin' ? Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: KL7OF on February 05, 2006, 09:43:12 PM quote]
What the h*ll were we thinkin' ? Quote I wonder also???Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: John Holotko on February 05, 2006, 10:09:08 PM It just goes to show you what "dumbing down" the hobby has done for us. I just read this crazy thing. Frankly, I think we should beat both rotten ideas to death with the Wouff Hong. With one, we get digital crap everywhere, and once someone notices the "exception", no AM. WIth the other we simply get crap everywhere. This "self-regulation" thing is a farce. We are able to do it now, somewhat, because there's an over-reaching framework. Without the framework, we'll just have anarchy. What the h*ll were we thinkin' ? I wouldn't entirely dismiss the idea of "self regulation". Given the right motivation people can be quite capable of regulating their behavior. I have seen it happen and in some of what would seem to be the most unlikely places. I cannot say for certain it would worj 100% of the time on ham radio. At the same time I would';t dismiss it entirely as a crackpot idea. Perhaps some level of compromise is needed. Maintaining a basic underlying framework (which we can do) and at the same time allow for a greater level of self regulation. Title: Re: CTT Proposal is assigned an RM number by the FCC Post by: K1MVP on February 06, 2006, 07:58:01 AM It just goes to show you what "dumbing down" the hobby has done for us. I just read this crazy thing. Frankly, I think we should beat both rotten ideas to death with the Wouff Hong. With one, we get digital crap everywhere, and once someone notices the "exception", no AM. WIth the other we simply get crap everywhere. This "self-regulation" thing is a farce. We are able to do it now, somewhat, because there's an over-reaching framework. Without the framework, we'll just have anarchy. What the h*ll were we thinkin' ? I wouldn't entirely dismiss the idea of "self regulation". Given the right motivation people can be quite capable of regulating their behavior. I have seen it happen and in some of what would seem to be the most unlikely places. I cannot say for certain it would worj 100% of the time on ham radio. At the same time I would';t dismiss it entirely as a crackpot idea. Perhaps some level of compromise is needed. Maintaining a basic underlying framework (which we can do) and at the same time allow for a greater level of self regulation. John, You "are deamin" John,--self policing DID occur 40 years ago,--2006 IS a different world in terms of behavior, IMO. The "more" you give away,--the more people want, or will "grab",--it`s just human nature. The FCC has better things to do than "chase" renegade hams,--again just my opinion. 73, K1MVP P.S,--I did file my comments at the "eleventh hour" yesterday on RM-11306 |