The AM Forum

It's such a pleasant surprise to buy something actually made in the USA.  Today, tires, Goodyears.  I know not all Goodyears are made here but these were.

Earlier in the day, paint brushes, Purdy (or is it Purdee).  Great brushes.

I just bought Purdy trim brushes for the same reason. The Purdy trim brush I have been using since this time last year is starting to show its age but still very usable.

My HF rig is made in the U.S.A. So is my microphone, tri-bander, and coax. The dark chocolate covered raisinettes I just ate, were grown, covered in chocolate, and packaged here in the U.S. My Toyota was made in Indiana.

Pete,
       I got to chime in on this one, I believe Assembled should be the word of choice here. As of the last I looked into that a few years back, Most of the Japaneese cars had all of their parts manufactured overseas, then were shipped over here in parts and assembled here. This way they beat the import taxes, loading  and unloading fees etc. It was a loophole thing to maximize proffitability and get a leg up on the American car manufacturers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

                                                                     the Slab Bacon

The Federal Trade Commision has very strict rules for using the words "Made in the USA."   Basically the words can only be used if the product was wholly made in the U.S. except for some minimal operations or parts overseas.   "Assembled" is the language that is allowed if significant parts are of overseas origin.   The rules do allow you to mention specific processes that occur in the U.S.   For instance, a show can be marked "Handsewn in the USA" even if the upper was cut overseas.   

Ed

I believe new cars say how much came from where on the sticker.  Stuff comes from all over.  Toyota has an engine plant in W. Virginia and a transmission plant there too.  I think Honda builds engines and whole lot of other stuff in Ohio.

However, the only automotive assembly plant west of the Mississippi is the NUMI plant in Fremont, CA, a joint Toyota and GM operation.  GM has pulled out and Toyota probably will too leaving none.  We're left producing nothing but lettuce, computer chips, software, movies and weird politics but lets not dive into that last one.

"Cash for klunkers" has turned out to be a program to get all those nice big American made cars off the road and replace them with overwhelmingly foreign imports.

One might think this is an unintended consequence of shortsightedness but I am too cynical about government to think anything not in the best interests of Americans is unintended.

js

I don't really give a hoot where the individual parts came from. The finished goods, "the car" was made in the U. S. MY Flex 5000 was made in the U. S. I don't really care where the individual resistors, capacitors, or chips were made. Did you really think that every part in a Ford or Chevy was made in the U. S.   :)

Profits still go to Japan! That don't help US one bit.

Pete,
        I think ur kinda missing the point. Yea, even my Harley-Davidson motorcycle has a japanese carburetor and japanese electrics on it. (Unfortunately they are better than ours) :'(  :'(

But, there is a big difference between component level parts (which sometimes you have no choice where they come from) and specifically engineered sub-assemblies designed to get around import loopholes. If they are actually manufactured here from raw materials, then I have no bitches about it. Howeva, I dont think they are. (but I have been wrong before)

                                                                  the Slab Bacon

How come people didn't get all hot and bothered when German-owned Chrysler was a "foreign" automaker by the same definition I'm seeing here?

Many still lumped it in with the Detroit Big Three.

Seemed hypocritical to me.

Jack,

think about this--A lot of American car dealers are getting a ton of business--the rules of the program don't stipulate that you have to buy foreign import cars.  American companies are also making high mpg cars that fit the program.  Also, the purchases of Toyotas, Nissans, and Mercedes and maybe others all benefit American workers because these companies all have domestic assembly plants.  Also, not all American cars qualify.  I have a friend who would love to get rid of his Saturn, but they won't take it, even though it is 16 years old because it gets 31 mpg.

73,

Rob K5UJ

American workers are paid out of those profits, so they don't all go to Japan. The plants the foreign companies built were paid for out of those profit (or as a result of those profits), so once again, not all of it goes to Japan.

It's a global economy. Where do all the profits go from all the profits of Microsoft sales in Japan? Or all the Apple iPods and iPhones sold in Japan.

I heard that the #1 selling new car as a result of the program is...
(drum roll)

The Ford Focus.

Dealers can't keep them in stock.

Don't give up hope, gentlemen.

Say what you want but how is it the strongest country on the planet is also $11T in the red. sumpin ain't right

That's right Bill.
These are facts.

Actually, depending on which week you look at, the U.S. "clunkers" race shows first place both to the Ford Focus and the Toyota Corolla, both made (to some extent) by American workers drawing paychecks in the U.S. dollar.  The Corolla has been made at a California factory for more than 20 years.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota-corolla-overtakes-ford-focus-for-top-cash-for-clunkers-purchases/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/toyota-corolla-overtakes-ford-focus-for-top-cash-for-clunkers-purchases/)

Interesting information in the story linked above -- of the top trade-ins, there's not a single model from Toyota, Honda, or Nissan.

To China, of course.

js

Yes, but that is the ONLY US car in the top five sellers. The rest are from foreign companies. Further, the majority of the cars sold are from foreign companies. This program is but another of this governments payoff to special interests, except it's paying off the wrong special interests - a double screw up.

I didn't know Bill Gates, the richest man in the world, lived in China. When did he move?

My Simplicity riding lawn mower was made in USA and has a Briggs & Statton motor.  I saw a later model of the same mower the other day, with a decal affixed: Powered by Honda.  Last year, I took apart an old Hunter ceiling fan motor to clean it and check its internal condition.  One of those Original models with the cast iron motor in which you can look up through the ventilation holes in the bottom cover and see motor windings and spinning rotor, and has ball bearings bathed in oil, which requires oil to be added periodically. I was surprised when I removed the cast iron cover and saw "Taiwan" stamped on the inside face.  That one was manufactured decades before the manufacturing operation was moved offshore, from Memphis.

A salesman at a local garden supply store told me there is a much higher demand for power tools such as tillers, pressure washers, lawnmowers, etc that  have Honda motors over those with Briggs and other US manufactured motors.


At least they put a 20-year limit on the age of the vehicle to be traded in.  Nobody will be destroying any 55 Chevys, 49 Hudsons, or 34 Hupmobiles.  Don't forget, millions of perfectly good classic American cars were destroyed under another government program: scrap metal drives during WW2.  It was hard to find gas, oil and replacement tires while everything was rationed, so many people patriotically donated their perfectly good Model A or Model T to be melted down for the war effort, rather than leave it parked to rust away for the remainder of the duration.  That's why there are so few of them in existence to-day.


Workers are not paid out of the profits.  Profits are what is left over after workers are paid and all other operating expenses are covered. 

Even GM and Chrysler pay their (remaining) workers.

You threw in that red herring.  We were talking about autos and hardware.  I chose to ignore Microsoft and you chose to ignore ipods and iphones.

Talking past each other.

js

Not really. We're talking about global companies and profits and where they go. Bill Gates is but one example. If you want to talk iPods, then the last time I checked, Steve Jobs still lives in the USA.

The point is that it doesn't matter that much where a big, global company is located. Their profits benefit people around the world.

In an accounting sense, you are correct. But if the company isn't making a profit, there are no workers or pay.

I forgot the details but it seems like a US car only leads the klunker race in administration provided propaganda.  It is in fact, an accounting trick that takes things into consideration that assure a US car is on top.  

The rest of the counters put it down the list quite a bit.

Another little remarked detail is the loop hole that exempts certain categories from the mileage requirement because there is none for that category.  This seriously distorts the propaganda that people are trading in for high mileage vehicles because it is, as usual, only half the truth.

js

That's nice but sounds like something Hillary would say.

Check the subject line and the comments that followed.  I believe that the consensus is that buying American is good for American. 

When jobs go off shore Americans lose.  Cash for Klunkers would be better for Americans if it were limited to American cars.

............

>In an accounting sense, you are correct. But if the company isn't making a profit, there are no workers or pay.

 Surely you jest?  Remember "too big to fail"?  I can think of quite a few bankrupt companies that are still doing business as usual thanks to us taxpayers.

js

I don't recall Hillary commenting on the subject. He was an awesome mountain climber though.

I don't care about the consensus. It's a global economy. If everyone only bought stuff made in their own country, lots of US companies would be out of business, or employ far less Americans. We must move beyond the xenophobia and 1950's thinking.

Ford's corporate sales manager said in an August 2 interview that all of their 4-banger (fuel efficient) vehicles have been flying out the door.

"..You are going to see large gains in almost every Ford product that is powered by a four-cylinder engine -- the Focus, the Fusion, Fusion Hybrid, the Escape small utility and its hybrid version, the companion Mercury products -- that is where the demand was, particularly this past week," Pipas said."

People *are* trading in for high MPG vehicles.

Here's the CNN top-10 sales list from yesterday:

#1: Ford Focus. Made in USA. Near 30 MPG.
#2: Toyota Corolla. Made in USA, Canada, Japan. Near 30 MPG.
#3: Honda Civic. Made in USA. Near 40 MPG.
#4 Toyota Prius. Made in Japan. Around 45 MPG.
#5: Toyota Camry. Made in USA. Around 35 MPG.
#6: Ford Escape SUV. Made in USA. Up to 32 MPG (hybrid).
#7: Hyundai Elantra. Made in Korea. Near 30 MPG.
#8: Dodge Caliber/Jeep Compass. Made in USA. Mid-20s MPG.
#9; Honda Fit. Made in Japan. Around 30 MPG.
#10: Chevy Cobalt. Made in USA. Near 30 MPG.

Note that there isn't a single large SUV or pickup truck on the list, *every* top-selling vehicle in the clunker program is fuel efficient.  Every one.

Seven of the top-10 best sellers are made in the USA. Is that so bad?

The top trade in for the above vehicles? The Ford Explorer.

.

People *must* trade for a higher MPG vehicle to take advantage of the offer.

Online site that lets one input their 'clunker' and new car choice to see if the plan works for them.   

http://www.cars.gov/ (http://www.cars.gov/)

Click 'MPG Ratings' tab, then 'I'm ready to begin'.

Ran through it myself using a 1993 17 MPG car I'd like to get rid of. Couldn't make it work for any vehicle I'd consider putting my family in  :-\

Yes, it is bad. They are using my money to do it and I don't get a car.


WTF? My 16 year old clunker gets better gas mileage than this. In fact, the MPG is high enough that it does not qualify for this bogus program. Once again, the American public gets ripped off and the special interests rake in the dough.

Yeah, well, it *is* a Dodge, after all.   ::)

I look at it this way: Getting all those beaters off the road is prolly going to save the USA some gasoline consumption. That way, I can afford to keep driving our F-250, Grand Cherokee or Crown Vic when the next fuel crunch hits.

Anyway, divided among us Americans, the $3 bil cost of the program is costing us $10 each. Not to lose sleep over it. You ain't buying a new car for $10 bucks, dude.

Your mileage and opinion may vary...

Yea,..But it sure would'a been Nice If we the free were Asked first.

73
Jack.

 

 Thank the politicians from the states that have Toyota Kia Honda etc, factory's in them for that one. for that one.

Bear in mind that no one is forcing anybody to buy a new car or participate in the program, and no one is specifying a particular brand to buy.

From today's WSJ:

DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. confirmed Wednesday it boosted output of its Focus car in response to declining product availability on dealer lots.

"We are taking appropriate actions," Ford spokeswoman Angie Kozleski said. She declined to provide further details.

However, two people in the United Auto Workers union said the plant, in Wayne, Mich., began working 10-hour weekday shifts Monday and will also work a series of Saturdays starting this week.

Ford is the second of the Detroit auto makers to increase output after the highly successful "cash for clunkers" program caused many dealers to run low on products.

Meanwhile, Chrysler Group LLC and General Motors Co. have been more aggressive. Chrysler returned its minivan plant to three shifts Monday and will begin running Saturday shifts at its Warren, Mich., pickup-truck assembly plant. GM CEO Fritz Henderson said Tuesday he will increase output, but he declined to provide a timetable.

Like I said before, forget about the foreign manufacturers, this is good. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Actually it's more like $22 and it will likely grow as they continue to dump money into it. But that's not really the point. Multiply that by the hundreds or thousands of similarly useless and misguided programs and we're talking serious money. You are missing the forest for the trees.

Or look at it another way, if I walked up to you, grabbed your wallet and took $20 out, how cool would you be with that. Maybe I'd come back tomorrow and take $20 more.......

It's just a Band Aid for Detroit is all it is ...But ..After.. the gold rush is over Then what...we'll have a good Fall on the market...then Bang another Drop...at the end of the period Darn it...

73
Jack.

Just bought my daughter a new Pontiac G5
So XYL can have her 1996 Pontiac GP back which runs great
So I can have my 2001 Silverado back which also runs great
Each have over 100k on them.
Tell me how much you love your BMW when the battery goes.

Well, Steve, there's plenty of government programs that are grabbing $$ out of my wallet. Some that I disagree with.. Some that have been foisted on us years ago.

But in this case, my opinion is that the Cash for Clunkers program is a decent, if not perfect program, it's helped folks keep their jobs, it has helped incrementally reducing our energy use, it has helped a lot of our fellow Americans replace the polluting, gas-guzzling P.O.S. they were driving with something more efficient, and I don't mind paying for my share of it. The plusses outweigh the negatives, IMO.

No one is forcing anyone to buy a vehicle. Everyone is still entitled to buy whatever vehicle they want and can afford, inside or outside of the program.

Sometimes...You have to spray a little starting fluid into the carb to get it started up again. Or use the jumper cables.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. Don't forget that.

You are free to object to a $22 tax, I don't mind it myself in this case.. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree. I feel that it's money well spent.

When this program is done, it's done. It's not going to go on forever, like so many other government programs.

I didn't go clunker. My POS 96 GP gets about 26 on the open road and my HOS truck kisses 20 on a trip with a 5.3 V8.
My plan was to buy a leftover this year anyway. I was palnning a Malibu but a bit more car than my Daughter needed so looked at Cobalt. Then found G5 same chassis but more options and cheaper price. Almost went Ford but local dealer a crook.

How long has the govt. been subsidizing farms?

yes cash for clunkers should have been limited to buying "American" cars to keep the most money here.
I believe that would be Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Maybe some other? Americans will have to pay for the program. Therefore those who do not buy American do not deserve to be in on it. My tax money already goes to pay for a host of unspeakable abominations as it is.

I suspect that you know I was referring to the lady we all know and love who claimed to be named after him even though she was born (and presumably named) before he did anything worth noting.

>I don't care about the consensus. It's a global economy. If everyone only bought stuff made in their own country, lots of US companies would be out of business, or employ far less Americans.

You speak in absolutes.  How about if we just spent half the energy our competitors spend on promoting buying home made?  Or even suggest that it's a good idea instead of jamming globalism down our throats?

If lots of people bought lots of stuff made at home we would employ far more Americans and we would be making useful things instead of being the junk music and porn king of the world.

Unfortunately, "global economy" is just a piece of evil propaganda used by the globalists to anesthetize us so we just take it in stride. I don't think you will find the Japanese or Chinese media stuffing that sort of rubbish into the brains of the locals.

Sorry old boy but nationalism is good, globalism is bad.

> We must move beyond the xenophobia and 1950's thinking.

The 50's were the good old days.  I am glad I was around to remember them.

js

Yes they were, for me anyway.  But I've come to think they were an anomaly, other economies shut down etc.  There is a terrific compare contrast between the Almost Golden Years  (I think that's what he calls them) and the current times in Robert Reich's book Supercapitalism. I may dig it out to remind myself of just how very different those times were.

Of course, it wasn't a great time if you were black or really anything but white in the USA. 

Just FWIW I have had 2 Rangers, both are / were pinto powered. the first one was an 88, I SOLD it with in excess of 245,000 miles on it!! 1 set of tires, 1 battery, 1 muffler and tailpipe and 2 sets of brakes all the way around. I changed the timing belt twice for good luck but intentionally left the original serpentine belt on it just to see. This one got 26-28mpg (2.0 engine w/5speed)

The second one is a fully loaded 99 (2.5 EFI w/5speed) THIS ONE EASILY GETS IN EXCESS OF 30MPG! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 129,000 miles now on it. It still runs brand new, I have put 1 set of tires, a battery (just for luck) and an alternator on it. This vehicle has been virtually repair free for the first 125,000 miles other than routine maintenance!

Why drive a pregnant roller skate if you dont have to!!

                                                          the Slab Bacon

And I speak in absolutes? LOL. Thanks for proving my point.

And sometimes you must pay off the special interests that helped you get elected. That all this is and nothing more. The difference in fuel comsumption cannot be measured. Its impact on the economy cannot be measured. When it will end? No one knows. But, hey it's politics as usual. I guess I shouldn't expect anything less, despite all the propaganda.

The only point proven is that we all speak in absolutes (exaggerate) when defending our own ideas.

So far in this discussion, there isn't much we disagree on other than nationalism vs globalism and I suspect we would agree on a compromise there too if it were not for the grandstanding.

When will it all end?

When politicians have the brains and integrity to recognize and do something about rampant population growth.

What is the point in reducing carbon foot print 10% when in a few years the number of feet on the ground will have increased more than that?

Making a big deal out of marginal fuel consumption changes is laughable with a population growing exponentially.

Lots of people use that term but most of them have no clue what it means.

In the words of the Schmidling Productions documentary "The Rotten World of Fungus"...

"Nowhere in the natural scheme of things has man ever made a positive contribution........

"Exponential population growth means that given enough time, the human race will be expanding into outer space at the speed of light."

No matter how many gas guzzlers we got off the road.

Check it out at your local library for the rest of the immortal words of yours truly.

js

I agree, except that I never made any statement in favor of absolute globalism. I said it's a global economy. That is a fact, not my opinion. I buy American when I can and when it makes economic sense (best price, best quality, best value, etc). But I also believe in competition. So, I will not just blindly buy American when some other country is making something better. That's it, that's all. Please don't read any more into it.

I guess Frank doesn't drive to impress  ;D

we just got the 2004 dodge ram 1500 inspected. The original brakes r still on with 115K miles. no problems. 3.7 v6,  5 spd OD stick, gets actual 22 mpg on highway. is not clunker, does not qualify.  8)

havent driven it since march 2006. Sux.  :(

Built by UAW in St. Louis, MO. engine in detroit, tranny in michigan at New Venture Gear.

Steve, politics has always been about greasing the wheels. It's been that way in the good old USA since day 1; even Honest Abe made policy to pacify supporters and contributors. Early American history shows us that presidents have always given jobs and business to supporters. Even more blatantly than the corrupt Chicago and New Jersey politics that are cited today. I'm not personally so much of an idealist that it bothers me much any more. But if the laws get broken, that's another story.

In any case, yes, the results of the program *can* be measured. Here's from today's Bloomberg news, and the source isn't government propaganda.

" Aug. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Ford Motor Co., benefiting from the Obama administration’s “cash-for-clunkers” program, said it’s boosting factory output by 26 percent in the second half to meet the increased demand.

Ford, the only major U.S. automaker to avoid bankruptcy, is increasing production by 18 percent in the third quarter to 495,000 cars and trucks. The Dearborn, Michigan-based automaker plans to raise plant output by 33 percent in the fourth quarter. " (Example- Doesn't that mean Ford will be paying out ~ 33% more wages later this year? That's a LOT of money)

"To increase Escape production, Ford said it is bringing workers back from scheduled shutdown at its Kansas City, Missouri, factory to work beginning Aug. 21-22."

Steve, Ford can quantify what the clunker program has done for its American workers in terms of employment and wages paid, and at some point, so can the other auto manufacturers. I'd rather my one-time $22 tax for the program went to supporting gainful employment rather than paying a perpetual tax for the welfare line.

Once the exact records are compiled at the end of the program, it *will* be possible to quantify roughly how much (if any) fuel savings the program generated instead of speculating one way or the other.

On edit: Among the beneficiaries of the clunker program are the stockholders of Ford Motor Company, most of whom are Americans or American investment companies.

We are getting dangerously close to agreement.

We could argue if better also means cheaper. But I would be putting words into your mouth.

There was a time when I would pay more for equivalent if  made in USA but at this time in my life (70) and now recognizing that our government is bent on self-destruction, I just don't give rip beyond talking about problems.

The root of all evil is population growth.  That is a fact not not an opinion.

js

Nah  that's what I have a motorcycle and my dynamic personality for  ::)  ;D  ;D

The data shown is too short term (or just not enough of it) to draw any conclusions. Of course Ford is going to put a good spin in it. They are getting paid off by the government. So, yes, it is government propaganda. And I don't buy it.

Further, there is no analysis showing what could have been done with the billions that would have had a postivie long term effect. Creating a false economy to bring workers back for some short period of time, without addressing any of the root and long term problems is laughable.

Finally, using the two wrongs make a right argument to justify this program illustrates how indefensible it really is.

My gripe about some government incentive programs is that they reward stupidity.  Those with the foresight to buy fuel efficient cars in the past can't benefit from the clunkers program.    Those of us who built well insulated homes with efficient heat and cooling sources can not now benefit from the government rebate programs.    When these programs come into being there ought to be a tax credit for those of us who already have done what the programs are trying to accomplish.

Naa I wouldn't even mention Stupidity on this subject matter, Rather Rifleling, the way the money is being fired off, there are very well paid analyst's that do nothing but plan, average and proof ideals like these before they're put into action, they already know what the Public will do.  Nothing.

So we save a coupla shifts for ford or chevy on the line big deal...Long Term man...this does what for that..?


73
Jack.





 

Hey we can't give it all to Haliburton.

You imply Halliburton provided nothing ("give") for the $1.5T allocated to them for the various services they provided over the course of 5 years. (This $ per the DNC so it must be true.) And that the bailouts are an insignificant number compared to current outlays.
Money wasted is support for failed businesses who supply nothing but debt for the bailouts. As of February the US spent $1.7T in bailout money in about one quarter (90 days). Some of which went to auto companies, ostensibly to save the jobs that were lost anyway when plants and dealerships were closed after the car companies burned through their bailouts.
Halliburton provided a bargain compared to that boondoggle.
Apples and kumquats Frank.

Yea, really. Halliburton actually did something for the money. The whole Halliburton thing is only bandied about by those who do not know history. The company has had contracts with the Federal government as far back as the LBJ administration. Just another of the lame stream media talking points. All BS and no facts.

More toward Made in the USA topic. Halliburton is providing revenue back to the US from overseas contracts. They do pay their taxes, employ US citizens, and maintain a ROE of nearly 17% with little debt. XOM also is a good corporate citizen, paying taxes and bringing out of country capital into the US. Even the villain dujour WMT provides more jobs in the US than the government in some areas (Harrisburg, PA for instance). In fact throw in ESEA and CPB and you would have a nicely diversified portfolio. . . .that provides you a quarterly check better than t-bills. . . Yep, the villified companies are often the best investments. . . . Why, because they are profitable, don't require support from the government, and their employees spend in the USA because they still have jobs.

Disclosure: I own HAL stock and bought it during the frenzy about how expensive it is to build infrastructure in a war zone and how that must be related to VP Cheney having a $15K (yes, that's fifteen thousand, wowsers) HAL 401K, and HAL stock options.
(Gee, I wonder how that would relate and what order of magnitude we would be talking if we considered the speaker of the houses' holdings and government contracts and support associated with them? Nvm, we can't go there or risk being called an angry mob. . . ) We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing When its said and done we haven't told you a thing . . . .

Art said:
Welcome back Art. We missed you, (at least some of us did)  ;)

Tnx Mikey. never really gone, just quiescent. 'winter project is an 80M ant. . . .
w0ba

I hope Ford sells these 495,000 cars under the CFC program in order to meet the demand. Hope their timing is good.  They may get stuck with some of these vehicles when the program ends if one considers the other manufacturers involved or competition.  The CFC rebate program will only provide 667,000 vehicles at $4500 per trade-in and 857,000 vehicles per $3500 trade-in assuming $3billion is all that is allocated to the program.   And how long is the program going to last?  Maybe a month at the rate they're currently going. What will it do for the overall economy. I don't think much in the grand scheme of things but hopefully not. My thinking is it will only produce an erratic blip for local economies, nothing for the national overall economy and then its status quo until the national economy picks up in its natural cycle as everyone follows suit. CFC is a band-aid for a select few and not a benefit for all.

I don't know if the CFC  has any controls to prevent the dealers from jacking up the price of the new car so they can double dip.  Even without CFC, many dealers still offer around a $5k trade-in for the old POS, but jack up the negotiated selling price of the new vehicle by about the same amount, so the buyer thinks (s)he is getting a discount.

You are better off just buying the new car without the trade-in, and selling the clunker for best offer.  If CFC takes enough clunkers off the road, the remaining ones might actually command a little real money.

I thought I heard haliburton was moving their HQ off shore? WUWT

Reality Check.... from Financial Times today....

 Cash-for-clunkers boost Japanese car sales

By Bernard Simon in Toronto

Published: August 17 2009 22:45 | Last updated: August 17 2009 22:45

The US’s cash-for-clunkers scheme, designed to bolster Detroit’s embattled carmakers, is turning out to be an even bigger boon for their Japanese rivals.

According to data published by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Monday, Americans are using the scrappage incentives to buy more vehicles from Toyota than any of the three Detroit carmakers.

js

Cash for Clunkers is saving jobs up and down the entire auto supply chain, from dealers to assembly workers and parts markers. Cash for Clunkers also helps autoworkers across the country. Many of the Toyotas and Hondas sold in the program are made by American workers right here in this country. The program achieves multiple goals in that it stimulates auto sales, increases the overall fuel efficiency of the cars on the road, and people will be driving safer cars. I personally don't care if they're buying lots of new Toyota's, Ford's, Honda's or Zippo's - everyone wins.

"Cash for Clunkers is saving jobs up and down the entire auto supply chain, from dealers to assembly workers and parts markers. Cash for Clunkers also helps autoworkers across the country. Many of the Toyotas and Hondas sold in the program are made by American workers right here in this country. The program achieves multiple goals in that it stimulates auto sales, increases the overall fuel efficiency of the cars on the road, and people will be driving safer cars. I personally don't care if they're buying lots of new Toyota's, Ford's, Honda's or Zippo's - everyone wins."

Are you sure? Since the government is fully into a record deficit spending spree, literally we are borrowing from our children to buy cars today. They will be paying back the cost of this program long after the vehicles being purchased are on their way to China as scrap. How about the auto parts industry? Won't they take a hit from people not keeping their paid off vehicles on the road? Won't this add to the debt load on consumers causing further cut backs in their spending? Add that to an already anemic consumer and you reduce spending now. Vehicles purchased today are not purchased tomorrow. That sounds less than profound but it creates a demand today at the expense of tomorrow. That means people will be laid off when the demand abates as money is drained from the program and taxes are increased on all because of the program. As for saving gas, when the information is allowed to be released from the government data on vehicles being purchased you will find (per KBB) the majority of vehicles being purchased are SUVs and trucks. Is everybody winning?
I can support regulation to prevent monopolies as I remember 50 cent a minute long distance. However, if the government had taken over or regulated to the point of controlling the technology would we have 5 cent a minute long distance? I don't think so. The government is not noted for its excellence in management.
I think when the government interferes with free trade everyone loses except the government. This is short sighted for a government of and by the people. Ultimately, this and other ill advised programs will awaken the apathetic and the politico Euro worshippers.
You can't spend your way to prosperity. It is an illusion at the expense of tomorrow.

-ap

I know some of you guys view California as a foreign country but those Corollas are actually made here in my backyard, in Fremont, CA.  I don't know if the guts are made in their US plants in West Va or in Japan but the cars are assembled here in what might be the last hurrah for car manufacturing west of the Mississippi.  It's the only plant still operating in the West and it's probably a goner now that GM is pulling out of the NUMI Toyota/GM joint venture. 

Not to mention that the program is so ineptly run the dealers aren't getting the rebate money from the government. What a joke.

Clunker-Gate.

So I guess $>6T in 8 years would not be considered record defecit spending

Not hardly when compared to $2T in 6 months. Did you stop keeping track?

Why would I get rid of the car that is paid for to go into debt and pay sales tax?

Doesnt make a whole lotta sense.

"So I guess $>6T in 8 years would not be considered record defecit spending"

Not no mo. There's absolutely no restraint on the spending now (admittedly, there was darn little restraint in those 8 years. . .  particularly the last two.). . let's play a little projection game: if you spend 1.7T in 3 months, how much will you spend if you are allowed to do this for 8 years? That would equal something like 6T in one year. Congratulations Frank, you have a new winner. . . .and the grand total is $48T in 8 years. Now take the 3T or so that is extorted from those who work for a living per year in the US, deduct operating and pandering expenses of say 2T (yes, I know this is low but I am hoping we fix the problem sooner than later) and apply the rest to reduce the spending spree less interest. In that case it will be significantly more than 50 and more like 100 years until the US is solvent. However, that won't happen because the dollar will be devalued to pay back these huge sums. (AKA "monetizing" the debt) That is called inflation. It won't be long before this is biting you and everyone else who has saved for their retirement in their southern extremities. . . .it won't fall on just your (grand)childrens standard of living. Enjoy your new car.

Speaking of which, if you buy an American car the workers are employed and the profit goes to an American company and is spent in America. If you buy a car made in the USA for a foreign company workers are employed and spend their wages in the US but the profit goes there and is spent there. Perhaps an American car (or preferably a Zippo) is the right choice if you cannot resist the urge to spend your childrens way of life.

0ba

Art, please stop bringing logic and facts to this discussion.

Steve, Have I achieved disruptor status yet?
-----
"Why would I get rid of the car that is paid for to go into debt and pay sales tax?
Doesnt make a whole lotta sense."

Wow, someone with common sense. Extrapolating from that, I think you want to live within your means, be responsible for yourself, and create a better way of life for the future? Hmmmm, very suspicious.
-----
"These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

Be careful my friend common sense may soon be outlawed and the book burned in the town square.

There is another thing that was made in the U.S.A.: Freedom of speech is part of it. Has this become outlawed. Can this actually be undermined and disestablished by the government? Courts have said no many times but still this kind of behavior persists. If so, what next?

0ba

Freedom of Speech can get you jailed for a hate crime now

I believe that the ability to do heavy manufacturing (autos, aircraft, ship building, appliances, etc) is vital to the national interest of the USA.

If there's truth to that, then any constructive ideas to support these homegrown industries would be welcome, if one doesn't philosophically agree with the Clunker cars program.

Any pragmatic suggestions out there other than dissing the Clunker program?

If these industries aren't vital to the security of the USA, well, then, never mind..We can always buy everything from Communist China.

I agree Bill. We should build our ground transportation around CNG as they have done in Utah. The transition to CNG both for new and converting existing vehicles would be multiple heavy industries. Build nukes (ya I know NIMBY) in the desert near the solar panels and wind turbines. Build the distributed sources grid. Drill more oil and trade it for appliances if they can be made better in a country with a lesser standard of living. My point is it may not be specifically ships, planes, and appliances but heavy industry will be required if we become the energy supplier to the world.
If we do decide to build appliances competing with the lowest common denominator should NOT be the goal. Build the best and charge accordingly.

0ba

It's a little late for Nationalism, the program is geared for Global Marketing now, these are not Protectionist Times.

The Clucker Program is functioning FB, as it was designed, to pull in more dummies, and spend money...like they're really going to kick start something here, that's the truth.....anybody remember Wool Pulls... ;D

As far as anything Pragmatic...sure I can tell you right where to start with the FED..start printing your own money that belongs to this country...The FED is Not an Entity of the federal Gov, it is Contracted to, I believe there is a book written about a fellow who pulled the same thing on France and was given the Boot.

Security an Industry are two different Animals, what is perceived to be security when Business is Functioning by Regulated Design is what has changed There was a Nation wide call for deregulation and there you have it..and now we are living in it...you have to remember that..First.


73
Jack.

 

Yea, cut taxes on businesses, most especially small business.

Cut the red tape and over regulation.

Get the government out of the business world. Most of the corruption comes from the government. Get rid of it and the jobs will follow.

Cut personal income taxes so people have money to invest in USA companies, or better yet start one. Even better, get rid of the icon of government corruption and over regulation – the current tax laws. Replace them with a flat tax or a national sales tax.

Let the USA car companies compete. If they fail, let them fail. Another better company will rise in their place.

Develop an actual energy strategy for the next 20-50 years. Stop with the slogans and pandering to wacked out special interests groups like Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. Ignore the screams of the green weenies, nimby’s and other obstructionists who want to have it all (energy) but do not want to sacrifice anything for it.  In other words, get real. We’ll need to utilize oil and coal for a long time. Get over it and move on. Develop a strategy that will allow us to use these resources for the next 20 years and do it inexpensively. The money saved can then be put into developing alternative resources. Use our own oil, gas and coal and tell the Middle East and other oil rich dictatorships (Venezuela) and unstable countries to go f#$% themselves.

Stop with all the band-aid, feel good measures, cut all the BS rhetoric and get out of the way. The government is too big, too bloated, too inefficient and too corrupt. Taking money of out the economy to put it back into the economy to “stimulate” it is nothing more than an obscene shell game.

Hear..Hear...Bravooo...if they Fail They Fail....the Others have already arrived.. :)

73
Jack.

great idea HUZ but just add in a way to deal with the poor insurance  company crooks.

Steve: IMO, you're not offering pragmatic suggestions. Piggies aren't about to start flying anytime soon.

Art: I agree with you on almost every point. IMO, the main reason for our (past?) American prosperity has been the availability of cheap, abundant energy since the industrial era began. Wood, then coal, electricity and petroleum.

Abundant energy will be the key to America's future. Without which, we might as well move back into the caves. I have no reasonable guess what our energy future is going to look like decades hence.

There's been a big push for harnessing wind and solar energy, it's a good start but only a piece of the puzzle. Wind and solar are things that there aren't too many serious national objections to. I'm also a believer in natural gas. Coal is abundant and affordable, but has more of an environmental price to my own personal liking. Ethanol made from foodstuffs like corn may also be a mistake...

It is essential that we move on and start using nuclear during the transition period to a new and undefined energy future. We have to.  But there hasn't been a single politician with the cojones to push it, or a final plan to safely store its waste material.

I will guarantee you that a century from now we will be relying on energy sources that we have no idea about in 2009. I'd love to see it.

No one could have comprehended nuclear power or AC electrical distribution systems in 1860, gas was manufactured from coal, petroleum was used for pitching boats, but a century later, they were facts of modern life.

The easy way out Bill. Just say it can't be done and it never will be. Do you think the idea of breaking away from England seemed pragmatic to very many people when it was first proposed? No, it wasn't. In fact, even when the revolution was happening, there was not a majority of the population in favor of it.

So, ask yourself, has the last X (pick a number) years of saying, oh well, it can't be done because pigs can't fly, improved the situation or has it caused us to arrive at the current (and I assume unacceptable to you) state. To continue doing the same thing and expect a different result is the definition of insanity. Hardly pragmatic, no matter how you look at it.

Steve, the changes you suggest aren't going to happen because the public doesn't really want, and is not clamoring for those changes.

Sure, the flat tax makes sense, but no one is willing to give up their mortgage tax deduction, or their child care exemption, or their medical deductions.

Why are there even mortgage tax deductions to begin with?
Social engineering through taxation. Home ownership promotes a less revolutionary and a more status-quo society.

Why have deductions for children? Doesn't that only encourage having more offspring? How does that benefit the country?

Think consumerism. Which is what drives our economy. More is better.

The manure would hit the rotary ventilation apparatus if removing the dependent tax deduction was ever seriously discussed.

People WANT government regulations because they feel more secure with them.

And, frankly, as Theodore Roosevelt found, some government regulations are necessary, human nature being what it is.

The public DOESN'T want to make sacrifices, no matter how trivial they might be. Or as a Washington politician once said, "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree." And that public sentiment is exactly why we have the system we do today, and that's why the piggies won't be flying anytime soon.

Finally, the American public does not share the same issues, educational level, or motivations that they did 200+ years ago. God save the Queen.

What we can do is make incremental changes in a many-ways screwed-up system, but you first need to build a public consensus for those changes. Government is NOT going to make changes unless the public demands same, not based on what you or I think.

The public wasn't clamoring for a cash for clunkers program. Yet it was done. Your logic is failing here. Same goes for converting to CNG. No big public cry for this. Same for:

biodiesel
wind energy
solar energy
nuclear energy.....

Shall I go on? The US public is largely apathetic and won't ever come up with any new ideas. Those come from visionaries and leaders. We have none in our government now, and probably never had but a few. The new ideas come from private industry and entrepreneurs. Getting the government out of their pockets and out of their way will lead use to new and better ideas far more quickly.

You also make quite a few claims about what the public wants or doesn't want that just aren't true. We've never had a real public discussion of the flat tax. So to claim people don't want it is false. They've never been asked. One thing is for sure, if the public thinks it will lead to them paying less taxes, they will be for it.  :)


The current system is broke. Making incremental changes is akin to shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic.

Time for a Pole then :) ....I'm for one Flat Tax...

73
Jack.

Yes they did, Steve, note how last November's election turned out. The recession hit, and there was a huge outcry to "do something". And the above things were pursued.

We're not up to the same level of interest in a tax revolt. There was NO interest in intelligent candidates or ideas like congressman Ron Paul, who advocated a flat tax and a return to the gold standard.

BTW, the only question about biodiesel is whether grease from Chinese or Mexican restaurants is best. My truck and tractor run like a bat out of hell on deep fryer and bacon grease. And the exhaust smell makes you hungry.


The facts are-  Business taxes didn't seem to affect the innovation by people and companies like Bill Gates at Microsoft or Steve Jobs at Apple. Or Google. Or many of our innovators and inventors.

What about one of the most taxed and regulated businesses out there- The Wall Street brokers and investment bankers and banking companies? A huge part of the economy in the NE CONUS. Like the auto biz in Michigan. Should their taxes be lowered and their regulations eased for the benefit of the country?

Could there be *more* innovation if there were fewer regulations and less taxes? Maybe, maybe not.
As I previously mentioned, I think the larger problem is the American public. Laziness, poorly educated, and unwilling to sacrifice. These are points of philosophy that can can be endlessly debated and I really don't want to do so here. Let's do it over a beer some time.



I stand by my assertion. The public doesn't have an interest in discussing a flat tax because of self-interest and ignorance. It's off the radar screen.


I prefer to look at it as "Great journeys began one step at a time".

Gary's Rule #6:

6. No political or religious posts will be tolerated on this site, unless directly related to our hobby.  There are thousands of sites one can go for that subject matter including the TV or newspaper.  People do not come to AMfone for that.


Do we really need this discussion here  ??? 

Until alternative energies are competitive or cheaper than oil, coal, and n-gas, then fossil fuel will continue to rule. Until it hits home with the main population (they wake up and get out of dream land) we'll see what happens.

The election was about biodiesel? Wow. Beer must have been involved for you to come up with that one!

There was no public clamor for any of those so called alternatives. If there was, to use your line of reasoning, something would have been done about it. But there wasn't. Further, they have been quietly pursued for years if not decades by private interests. If anything has changed since the election it has been merely in the realm of rhetoric and feel good slogans. Useful, significant change will not come from Washington. It never has. Why do you think it will now?

Actually, you introduced the subject of biodiesel to this discussion, not I. Remember?

There's now enough interest in the old grease that it's not going into landfills any more. It's selling for a premium, in fact.

That's called American ingenuity at its best. Why do you ridicule it?

(Uurrpp)

I don't. I'm not ridiculing anything. I'm questioning your assertion that the election was about biodiesel, or the claim it was the result of some public clamor. The facts just don't support this. It was an election, like any other. You can insert CNG, solar or anything else in place of biodiesel. The facts are the same.

But I do want some of that beer you're drinking. It must be some good stuff.   ;D

"Do we really need this discussion here  Huh"  

Pete, I am sure Garys rule applies because many folks tend to go off the deep end and get personal in such a discussion. This one has been a civil and respectful exchange of ideas. I am impressed and admire the ability to step outside ones self and see other points of view. All parties to the conversation have done so. We do have something in common and it may be the glue that holds us together in possibly contentious discussions; We are all AMers.

Perhaps you could do as I do for the ARRL posts? . .  just avoid the thread. . .

0ba

I have not mentioned one political party. I've kept this purposefully apolitical. Besides, Bill is buying the beer and what could be wrong with that?

As long as posters keep the politics and political views off the thread, I don't have a problem with it although there are other forums where this type of topic would probably find more interest. Of course, the thread has now moved pretty far from the original post that started the thread. I also suspect, and as the Rules point out, that many come here, for the radio-related and technical discussions. We have many members and they are not all AM operators. Our technical and QSO discussion areas embrace a wide variety of radio-related topics.

As to your phrase, "just avoid the thread". Sorry, but I can't accommodate you on this one. As a Moderator, I make it a point, as much as I can,  to view all posted threads.

I much prefer Tequila, Steve.

I'm still buying anytime you want. I doubt that I shall ever venture east of the Ohio River during the rest of my life. I'm too busy farming, ranching, killing prairie dogs, helping horses have babies, working in obsolete radio and being a ham radio operator.

Funny thing that most people have never noticed...Here in the west, you leave your money on the bar for the bartender to make change from until it's used up, in the east, you don't do that. You guys whip out the dead presidents later.

Seriously, I respect your opinions, but I don't often agree.
And vice-versa.

I'm OK with that. Like I've said, opinions are like @ssholes, everybody's got one.

Let's leave it at that.

Peace?

"As to your phrase, "just avoid the thread". Sorry, but I can't accommodate you on this one. As a Moderator, I make it a point, as much as I can,  to view all posted threads."

OK Pete. Do what you must. One might consider your moderation somewhat superfluous considering this discussion is well represented by moderators. Your dedication to duty is most impressive though.

0ba

Well, if we ever meet up, I will buy you some Tequila.

It's more interesting to disagree. Keeps me thinking. So, thanks for the discourse and on to more important things, like killing prairie dogs. That sounds like fun!

Remember, FCC Docket 20777 was officially titled "Deregulation".

Nanosolar has broken radio silence with a nice video. The thin film photo voltaic factory in San Jose, CA is now operating.  The highly automated panel manufacturing plant in Germany seems to be going too. 

http://www.nanosolar.com/company/blog#66

Everyone in the video seems to have a German accent except the good looking blond.  But the first  factory is in San Jose, honest

I can't blame them for having the second factory in Germany.  Germany represents 43% of the world market vs 18% for the US of A.

They're competing with First Solar, the #1 thin film company, HQ AZ, factories in Ohio, Germany and Malaysia. 

Watch the video. Some of it's recycled but some is new and cool.

Checked out that company on a web search.
Very interesting..Seems that solar electric using their thin-film technology costs around 30 cents/watt, a real breakthrough.

A 500-megawatt coal fueled power plant costs more than a billion bucks to build these days, the raw cost for 500 MW worth of Nano's panels is a fraction of that. And the fuel is free forever.

Problem is as I see it, 500 MW of solar is gonna use a *lot* of real estate on the ground, unless it's distributed on top of existing buildings and the like.
The NIMBYs would have a field day like they do now with wind power.

Heck, I see they're complaining about solar projects in the Mojave. They don't want no coal, no wind, no oil, no solar, no nukes. They can move into their caves.

Nevertheless, this looks like a promising piece of a possible energy future. I'd hang their panels over in a minute at $300/KW.

Funny, but the first place I would think you would WANT to build a solar farm would be in the middle of a desert.  Think about a few thousand (go big or GO HOME)  acres of solar panels in Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico. 360 days of sunshine per year.  they say 16% efficient so at ~1kw/m^2 solar at the surface thats 160 watts per square meter of panel. so a one mega watt plant would require about 6250 sq meters or about 1.5 acres of surface.  Pad that for conversion efficiency (inverters heat up) and losses due reality, structures etc, so figure 2 acres per megawatt, put 500 acres under panels and you have a competitive (on an output basis) power generation plant.  I wonder what the cost per square foot or meter is?

Of course there is  the whole what do you do when it's dark thing... Thats a LOT of batteries.

They've been using pump hydro for that here for decades. The Cabin Creek project at Georgetown, CO consists of two mountain lakes, one is higher in altitude than the other. When there's a surplus of power available, water is pumped into the upper lake, when power is needed, the equipment is reversed, pumps become generators as in a conventional hydro system. They can also take advantage of lower rates on the spot power market, say, at night or weekends during the summer and turn the generators on during the day's peak demand.

The Cabin Creek plant was originally built, in part, because of the great New York blackout of '77 when multiple power plants tripped off-line. Coal plants use a lot of power to operate, giant blowers, conveyors, offloading rail cars, coal crushers and etc. So there is a need to provide a lot of electric power to jump-start the area infrastructure in a similar emergency.  The nice thing about hydro is that it always works, all you need do is open the water spigot. You generate AC and don't need monster inverters.

In any case, there's a set of 115 KV lines running from the plant, tied into the grid in the Denver area.

Batteries not included.  :D

In other places, I suppose that you could pump sea water up to an elevated reservoir of some kind.

Here's a picture of the two lakes of the Colorado project, scroll the picture to the north and you can see the power lines heading to Denver along I-70. Neat stuff.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/2727290

I'd have to check my figures but I don't believe the installed cost is competitive with coal.  They predict what they call "grid parity" in a couple of years.  These thin film guys boast they will be cheaper than coal in a couple of years.

You are right about real estate, and your comments about Mojave echo my sentiments exactly.  Come on.

But here's a story for you.  My nephew is wandering around  near Sacramento looking for places to put little PV farms.  The Sacramento utility company (city owned utility) wants to buy PV power.  It turns out ranchers often have some funky chunk of unfarmed, ungrazed land near enough to the HV lines that they are more than happy to lease out.   This is about the last thing he thought he would be doing when he graduated from engineering school last year, but what the heck. It's work.

Rubles for Wrecks (http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=8996860&referralPlaylistId=ad0207d555d845cfe1a4295a9d6dc8dd0f2b3139&maven_referrer=staf)