Audiophoolery

[The Slab Bacon]

Of the many parables of MURPHY'S LAW that is coming to mind here:

"never argue with a fool, because sooner or later no one will be able to tell the difference"


Always keep this mathematical equation in mind when evaluating speaker cables:

"the angle of the dangle does not always equal the arc of erection, but the mass of the ass stays constant!"
                                              The Slab Bacon

Bacobits,

Your approach here isn't very nice.
Sorry that you feel so insecure and inadequate.

        _-_-WBear2GCR

Who, me, feel insecure and inadequate Not a chance! Like Popeye the sailor said:
"I am what I am and thats all what I am!"  Remember that I'm the Slab Bacon "With the fat meat shakin!" all 270 lbs of it! I am not insecure, or even a little bit thin skinned!

If I  " put one across your bow" I dont expect you to walk away hurt and dejected, thats no fun. I fully expect you to fire one right back, thats the fun of it all. You definately dont know me at all!

You should use that callsign and get on the air once in a while and meet some of these people that hang out here! Many of these people here know me personally, I am an ornery S.O.B. with a rather twisted sense of humor. Remember that real men can always fire one back!! And it is statring to look like you're "On the ropes"
                                             
                                                               the Slab Bacon

[WB3JOK]

Of the many parables of MURPHY'S LAW that is coming to mind here:

"never argue with a fool, because sooner or later no one will be able to tell the difference"


Always keep this mathematical equation in mind when evaluating speaker cables:

"the angle of the dangle does not always equal the arc of erection, but the mass of the ass stays constant!"
                                              The Slab Bacon

Bacobits,

Your approach here isn't very nice.
Sorry that you feel so insecure and inadequate.

        _-_-WBear2GCR

Whereas your approach is full of it, but nice (at least up until that remark). I'm glad you are feeling secure and adequate in your opinions. I agree he could have phrased it more gently, but he's right. And you deflect questions with ad hominem attacks, or bloviation. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit", eh? Perhaps you can also hear the difference with one of these  power cords. You're preaching to the wrong choir here.

Meanwhile, The mass of the ass is indeed constant, proportional to the heat of the meat 

-Charles
(Enjoying the sound of my Phase Linear 400 and 16 ga. zip-cord speaker cables!)

[wavebourn]

Gentlemen,

are you sure electrons really exist and travel across the welding wire?
In some applications carpuscular model does not work so physics use wave model. Who knows, may be audiofool model is valid as well...

At least, I can clearly hear difference between very simple and very complex amplifiers; even when complex amplifier has much less harmonics measured it sounds worse subjectively.

My theory is, triode distortions are similar to native distortiuons of a human perceprion apparatus so we don't hear them. But we hear well distortions that are unnatural for us even if they are very small.

[K1JJ]

I don't get it.

As someone once axed, isn't the ac house wiring from the outlet back to the breaker box simple #14 Romex in most cases? And, the amplifier's power transformer uses thin magnet wire for the primary. How would a fat, specially designed power cord in series with that help?

And, aren't most speaker coils wound with thinner magnet wire? And, how about the audio transformer's secondary wire? How would a fat, specially designed speaker cable in series with that help?

Inquiring minds wanna know...

T

[wavebourn]

I don't get it.

As someone once axed, isn't the ac house wiring from the outlet back to the breaker box simple #14 Romex in most cases? How would a fat, specially designed power cord in series with that help?

And, aren't most speaker coils wound with thinner magnet wire? How can a fat, specially designed speaker cable in series with that help?

Inquiring minds wanna know...

T

This is easy!

If I tell you that when you are thirsty, feel sweating, you feel a hot air around, and know you can open a bottle of beer you love, you know how that bottle with testy beer looks, it feels cold in hands, and when you open it you hear whispering of bubbles in the bottle... You smell a beer.... You want to start drinking it... When you are thirsty... Do you like it?

Does it make you to feel anything?

The same, if you suggest to your happy buyer that afrer 23 and half hours of listening of right music through a magic power cord you sold him he'll feel, taste and smell the music better he WILL!!! He will tell the same to others amplifying your suggestions.

It is called hypnosis. Nothing special... Both are happy... One has money, other has a magic cable and feels happier listening to the same music... You've just sold him a happiness he could not achieve without your help. Actually, without your positive suggestion...

[k3zrf]

It's only as good as the weakest link.

I don't get it.

As someone once axed, isn't the ac house wiring from the outlet back to the breaker box simple #14 Romex in most cases? And, the amplifier's power transformer uses thin magnet wire for the primary. How would a fat, specially designed power cord in series with that help?

And, aren't most speaker coils wound with thinner magnet wire? And, how about the audio transformer's secondary wire? How would a fat, specially designed speaker cable in series with that help?

Inquiring minds wanna know...

T

[W3SLK]

The Slab Bacon said:

the angle of the dangle does not always equal the arc of erection, but the mass of the ass stays constant!"

Which is inversely propotional to the bounce of the ounce in turn causes better cushion to the pushin'!

[k4kyv]

It's only as good as the weakest link.

I don't get it.

As someone once axed, isn't the ac house wiring from the outlet back to the breaker box simple #14 Romex in most cases? And, the amplifier's power transformer uses thin magnet wire for the primary. How would a fat, specially designed power cord in series with that help?

And, aren't most speaker coils wound with thinner magnet wire? And, how about the audio transformer's secondary wire? How would a fat, specially designed speaker cable in series with that help?

Inquiring minds wanna know...

T

And don't forget the BREAKIN PERIOD.  Remember, when you first hook up the speaker cable and power cord, you are apt not to hear much difference because the cable has not been properly BROKEN IN.  But after several hours of use, the electrons flowing through the cable alter the molecular structure of the copper, and the sound just keeps getting better and better until the difference becomes ASTOUNDING.

Don't have the patience to wait till the cable is broken in naturally?  Then...

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0404/audioharma.htm

Price: standard version $649; pro version $779. Plus $12 insured shipping within the continental U.S.

[KB2WIG]

The position of the speaker cables in relation to the earths rotation will effect the length of the conductors, thereby changing the sonic quantities of the conductors. Parallel to the rotation will not effect the length of the conductor(only the width, ie, cross sectional dia.). Conductors facing in the direction of the earths rotation are reduced in length ( A. Einstein did the work..... not only was he a brilliant scientist, but look at his contribution to fashion in the 50's and 60's. Truly an example of a multi-modal summit complex individual.).    klc

[wavebourn]

The position of the speaker cables in relation to the earths rotation will effect the length of the conductors, thereby changing the sonic quantities of the conductors. Parallel to the rotation will not effect the length of the conductor(only the width, ie, cross sectional dia.). Conductors facing in the direction of the earths rotation are reduced in length ( A. Einstein did the work..... not only was he a brilliant scientist, but look at his contribution to fashion in the 50's and 60's. Truly an example of a multi-modal summit complex individual.).    klc

Also, if we put speakers pointing to wrong directions than musicians in the studio we'll get the wrong soundstage! 

[WBear2GCR]

Let me get this straight. Rock bands deliberately add distortion to the audio coming from their guitar amplifiers. Digital media, such as CDs, MP3s, and both satellite and the so-called "HD Radio" all throw away a lot of the audio information in the analog-to-digital conversions and in all the bit compression schemes used in the various recording and transmission formats. Many of the CDs currently on the market, especially in the rock and CHR formats, are horribly overprocessed. Most U.S. radio stations, caught up in the loudness wars that started in the glory days of AM Top 40, sound as if they're broadcasting pulsating DC (and the "total modulation" meter on the modulation monitor looks like it as well). Yet these people worry about speaker cable and whatever reactance is in that cable at audio frequencies?

P.T. Barnum was right.

This way to the egress...

Ummm, no.

But thanks for asking?

The people who tend to be into high-end more often than not gravitate toward classical and jazz. There are numerous labels that specialize in hyper-clean minimalist mic technique and recording gear.

As far as listening to those multi-track mono panpotted compressed monstrosities, sometimes it is fun to hear the distortion in the vocals exactly the way the engineers intended it - a wonderfully sad example of that is that first album "Blue" of that young talented blonde country singer (can't recall her name...) - the vocals are horribly processed and sibilant. The performance, incredible.

But, otoh, live audience recordings (bootlegs friends) of various electric acts come back *very nice* on a clean system... the better, the better...

Pop stuff? Eh, who cares... you guys listening to that stuff anyhow??

Listen boys, friggin Sinatra on LP of the highest caliber playback system will knock ur socks off... and I'm not even a Sinatra fan.

JJ, you should KNOW that "thin magnet wire" in a transformer is seen as a lumped inductance, as opposesd to a large series resistance. The 14 ga house wiring is definitely a limiting factor in terms of amplifier performance IF you draw power on peaks that is at all significant. Look, my 180 watt/ch amplifier has ~4kva of power transformers and only 500,000 ufd of filter caps which sit on solid copper buss bar, with directly mounted 400 amp Hexfed diodes. (stupid design, eh?) With a low Z load on the end of the amp, there is significant peak current drawn from the line. I run a 240vac line to an 8kva iso/step down tranny to power it. It would be better to run direct from 240, but then it would be tough to take the amp anywhere, should I want to do so. Can you hear it? Yep. When? On creshendos of massive choral pieces, quite easy. I have recordings where mere "mortal" amps just lose their focus and soundstage on those peaks entirely... quite obvious when you hear an amp that shurgs it off... and fwiw, the primary wire on these power tranny's is heavier than 14 ga. (been a while since I looked). For the unit that uses 4 stacked toroids, the sum of the gauge is ~10ga. I use SPC 10ga for all the power & speaker wiring in the unit.

The common joke in the audio community is those 5.1 "200 watt per channel" amps with a 16 ga. line cord. Yeah right - now where's the snake oil??

Putting this roughly in ham radio terms, this is like running a BIG ASS BROADCAST TRANSMITTER & a 200ft Tower vs a DX-60 & a G5RV up 30 ft. Most home stereos are DX-60s or unmodded rice boxes, they're not even PLATE MODULATED RIGS!! You guys who are running good Plate Modulated Rigs are roughly the equivalent to the average high-end audio guy. The guys who build their own rigs are like the audio DIYers...

Fact of the matter is that those who are into ridicule don't know much of anything about what they are ridiculing, or have had negative or limited experiences, and closed minds too boot. Sad.

I'm trying to tell you guys that there is something to all this, and that an awful lot of it is valid and NOT BS.
And, it's a lot of fun besides.
Plus <shock> tubes often beat the crap out of solid state stuff.
So, what's to complain about?

          _-_-WBear2GCR

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

Fact of the matter is that those who are into ridicule don't know much of anything about what they are ridiculing, or have had negative or limited experiences, and closed minds too boot. Sad.

This is quite a statement considering you don't us or our backround.
Said plainly ...... anyone stupid enough to by speaker cable for $10K deserves to be taken.
Unless, of course, they're wiring their whole town!

Now ... where's those black caps ?

I believe in the old saying: "A fool and his money will soon part"

Regards,
           Joe N3IBX

[W1UK]

Bear,

Just curious what the scientific basis is for the arrows on higher end speaker wire and interconnects?  If I hook them up the wrong way will all the energy be reflected back and cause my amplifier to blow up?  I really wish Belden would put those arrows on their coax cable.  I almost hooked up some LMR-600 the wrong way once.

Jim W1UK

As far as listening to those multi-track mono panpotted compressed monstrosities, sometimes it is fun to hear the
JJ, you should KNOW that "thin magnet wire" in a transformer is seen as a lumped inductance, as opposesd to a large series resistance. The 14 ga house wiring is definitely a limiting factor in terms of amplifier performance IF you draw power on peaks that is at all significant. Look, my 180 watt/ch amplifier has ~4kva of power transformers and only 500,000 ufd of filter caps which sit on solid copper buss bar, with directly mounted 400 amp Hexfed diodes. (stupid design, eh?) With a low Z load on the end of the amp, there is significant peak current drawn from the line. I run a 240vac line to an 8kva iso/step down tranny to power it. It would be better to run direct from 240, but then it would be tough to take the amp anywhere, should I want to do so. Can you hear it? Yep. When? On creshendos of massive choral pieces, quite easy. I have recordings where mere "mortal" amps just lose their focus and soundstage on those peaks entirely... quite obvious when you hear an amp that shurgs it off... and fwiw, the primary wire on these power tranny's is heavier than 14 ga. (been a while since I looked). For the unit that uses 4 stacked toroids, the sum of the gauge is ~10ga. I use SPC 10ga for all the power & speaker wiring in the unit.

          _-_-WBear2GCR

[The Slab Bacon]

The Slab Bacon said:

the angle of the dangle does not always equal the arc of erection, but the mass of the ass stays constant!"

Which is inversely propotional to the bounce of the ounce in turn causes better cushion to the pushin'!

Mikey,
         You have to be very careful in thet area as you could fall prey to the inverse square law!

If the mass of the ass is insufficient to push the arc of erection, the arc of erection then becomes inversely proportional to the heat of the meat an the whole situation deteriorates rapidly!
                                               The Slab Bacon

[wavebourn]

Bear,

Just curious what the scientific basis is for the arrows on higher end speaker wire and interconnects?  If I hook them up the wrong way will all the energy be reflected back and cause my amplifier to blow up?  I really wish Belden would put those arrows on their coax cable.  I almost hooked up some LMR-600 the wrong way once.

Arrows point to the best direction for the fastest break-in. Connecting wrong side you will defenitely break-out your transmitter cable.

[The Slab Bacon]

Bear,

 I really wish Belden would put those arrows on their coax cable.  I almost hooked up some LMR-600 the wrong way once.

Arrows point to the best direction for the fastest break-in. Connecting wrong side you will defenitely break-out your transmitter cable.

You have to be very careful when installing the connectors on your coax cable,
If you dont solder up all of the holes on the connector, the SWRs will start to leak out and eventually the coax will be unuseable.
                                                           The Slab Bacon

[KB2WIG]

If you use rosin core solder, will not that effect the sound of violins, and other string instrawments etc???  dont they use a different form of rosin??   My rosin is grown on the reverse side of hills so the sun will not overstress the tree. This allows for some brillance on the higher portion of the hill, but yet provides for a rich bottom end.    klc

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

The Slab Bacon said:

the angle of the dangle does not always equal the arc of erection, but the mass of the ass stays constant!"

Which is inversely propotional to the bounce of the ounce in turn causes better cushion to the pushin'!

Mikey,
         You have to be very careful in thet area as you could fall prey to the inverse square law!

If the mass of the ass is insufficient to push the arc of erection, the arc of erection then becomes inversely proportional to the heat of the meat an the whole situation deteriorates rapidly!
                                               The Slab Bacon

Slab-a-Dabba-Doo,Mike(y),
                                   This only proves two things:
                                 
                                    "Tis not the size of the wand, but rather the magic it makes"

                                     "Brave is the man who'll fight with a sword
                                      or climb Mt. Everest in snow
                                      But the bravest of all owns a '34 Ford
                                      and will try for 6,000 in low"

Mod-U-Later,
                 Joe Cro N3IBX

[k4kyv]

When the compressor in my central air conditioner trips on, my momentary a.c. line voltage sags noticeably.  The lights flicker dim, and I can see the pointer of the  line voltage meter on my transmitter jerk downwards.  Even a $100,000 line cord would do nothing to correct this.  I have had the power company out here a couple of times, and all they  have said is that they put their instruments on the line and that the power line  regulation is up to their specs, and they suggested that I call an electician to check out my house wiring (as if anything could be wrong with the house wiring that would cause the voltage output of their pole transformer to sag under load).

Despite the bullshit one may read in audiophool publications, the only possible way the power cord, a.c. outlet fixtures or even the house wiring could have any effect whatever on the sound of any kind of amplifier, would be due to power supply voltage sag at load peaks.  If you are really using a half-farad of filter capacitance with a tube type amplifier, I doubt if the voltage is going to sag measurably, given the maximum current the tubes are capable of drawing at full saturation, unless maybe you are running several hundred sweep tubes in parallel, CB style.

I thought those multi-tens of thousand $$$ high-end tube type amplifiers all ran single-ended parallel tubes (usually triodes) in class-A.  By definition, a class-A amplifier draws a steady plate current regardless of the signal it is amplifying.  If you are pushing that amplifier to the point that the plate current increases on peaks, especially to the point of causing the DC supply voltage to sag, you have already generated severe distortion, and all that the $10,000 speaker cable is going to do is transfer that distorted waveform to the speakers, intact.

It is precisely the kinds of amplifiers that audiophools avoid like the plague: solid state power amplifiers and push-pull tube type amplifiers running class AB2 and class-B, that draw substantially more current from the power supply during audio peaks, compared to what they draw during idle periods.

If I were really worried that much about voltage sag on audio peaks, instead of using a half-farad of filter capacitance, I would purchase a bank of car batteries and wire them all in series and keep them charged with a trickle charger.  Let's see.  If I bought a bunch of VT4-C/211's at $100 apiece to use in the amplifier, I would need about 1250 volts on the plates.  It would take 91 fully charged "12v" car batteries (at 13.8 volts each), to deliver that voltage. Naturally, an audiophool wouldn't want to use anthing less that the very best available car battery for this purpose, so I checked on the price of the top quality maintenance-free replacement battery for a Cadillac automobile with the largest size engine, and the price at local stores for a Mega-Tron Plus - 85 Months - 800 CCA  is listed @ $119 each.  91 of those batteries would come to $10,829 - about the same price as the speaker cables.  You could homebrew a 1250 volt trickle charger for under $100, and the terminal connectors required for seriesing up the batteries would run a few hundred $$$ as well.  The charger wouldn't need to deliver but a few milliamps at that voltage to maintain charge, if kept on the batteries 24/7.

Of course, if the amplifier used a few puny 2A3's or 300B's, you would need only about 400 volts, or 29 batteries @ $3451.  Quite a bit cheaper!

In addition to concerns about the A.C. line cords and "hospital grade" outlet fixtures, what about the DC cable that runs from the power supply filter cap(s) to the output transformer?  I have heard a lot about "high end" speaker cable and power cords, but nothing about "high end" under-the-chassis hookup wire for building amplifiers.  Maybe welding cables would work for this purpose, but I suspect there would be a problem soldering it to the transformer terminals.  Does anyone sell "oxygen-free" copper hookup wire, with "high-end" insulation? 

Let's hear the debate over whether it's best to use stranded or solid hookup wire.  For DC wire leads with the minimum  self-inductance, I would recommend Litz wire... Ready for the next audiophool ripoff fad, genuine N.O.S. Llitzwire (you supply your own insulating sleeve) @ $100+ per foot (price will vary according to gauge)?

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

Don,
      I agree with everything you stated in your last post. One thing however, remains to be constant. Regardless of the market, there are those who equate cost with performance and quality. When one believes to be deficient in knowledge, he compensates by throwing more money at something. There is a certain validity to that theory - to a point where it becomes absurd.

Let me pose this rhetorical question: If someone would spend the exhorbitant sum for "oxygen free copper wire" or "cyrogenically treated" high vacuum rectumfryer tubes, he is more or less forced to claim their superiority rather than admit defeat. Nobody wants to look foolish in the eyes of their peers. I repeat the statement I made earlier: 'A fool and his money will soon part".

Unfortunately, those of us that have rigs that use 2A3's in their speech amplifier, or other audiophool type tubes pay the price for what some people believe to be superior audio. I could give a damn about whether the tube was a 2A3 or 6L6, etc etc as long as it works in a circut.

[k4kyv]

                                     "Brave is the man who'll fight with a sword
                                      or climb Mt. Everest in snow
                                      But the bravest of all owns a '34 Ford
                                      and will try for 6,000 in low"

                             Burma Shave

[W1RKW]

Also, if we put speakers pointing to wrong directions than musicians in the studio we'll get the wrong soundstage! 

I know of a little pill that has the same effect.

[W3SLK]

Joe said:

Let me pose this rhetorical question: If someone would spend the exhorbitant sum for "oxygen free copper wire" or "cyrogenically treated" high vacuum rectumfryer tubes, he is more or less forced to claim their superiority rather than admit defeat. Nobody wants to look foolish in the eyes of their peers. I repeat the statement I made earlier: 'A fool and his money will soon part".

Don't for get those fancy dancy 'tube anti-resonance rings'. They will make sure that you amplify and pass along the proper harmonic, not the ones created by self-oscillation of the tube, quivering in the socket!

[John Holotko]

Wonder if anyone has gone into thye business of blessing the cables. I mean blessed cable sounds a whole lot better than non-blessed cable.

[KB2WIG]

    then there is the "laying on of the hams"