Audiophool's - Funny stuff

[Glenn NY4NC]

It has everything to do with imagination and nothing to do with hearing.

Anyone who doubts this stuff, and can still hear worth a damn is welcome to contact me for a first hand demonstration of this sort of thing. It's rather trivial to demonstrate.

What exactly and precisely is going on is entirely unclear to me, and rather annoying to boot. It would be far better if this sort of thing DID NOT HAPPEN at all. But it does. All the time.

[Tom WA3KLR]

All hearing results will always be subjective by definition.

Bear, what you describe is not a double-blind test.  You knew you had changed something and you knew what the 2 configurations were.  There is a lot of room for imagination here, not to rule out if there really was a difference to hear.

But the only audio testing I put objectivity in, is the double-blind test: an A versus B test where the listener does not know what the equipment was, does not know if B is an equipment or configuration change at all.  Repeat said testing with a few golden ears and look at the statistical results to get a conclusion.

For example:

Test Plan –  Listeners do not know actual configurations, just (4) A vs. B tests to judge.

Listen and mark which is better, or both same.

             First this        then this
Test 1. config. A  vs. config. B

Test 2. config. A  vs. config. A

Test 3. config. B  vs. config. A

Test 4. config. B  vs. config. B

Analyze results.

[W3SLK]

The best one and most notably the earliest of sparked debates amoungst audiophools, is the debate about 'Monster Cable'. In an issue of Stereo Review circa 1988, they did a comparison between the effects of Monster Cable and 14 ga. zip cord. The only difference with the exception of size and current handling is that the zip cord rolled off at about 28kcs, whilst the Monster Cable freq. roll off was near 50kcs. I can't recall the exact set-up used but I believe the hearing test involved a 250 watt amplifier. The A vs B tests resulted in no notable differences detected by the human ear. Still people will lay down copius amounts of cash (especially now. Have you seen the price of copper lately?) for technology based soley on myth and deception.

[Tom WA3KLR]

Perhaps we have forgotten, but there is a ham audiophool.net board at:

http://audiophools.net/phpBB/

There hasn't been a posting since last November.  The member list is a small subset of this board.  I think the administrator is Tom 'ZGC.

This topic could carry on there.

[The Slab Bacon]

What it all boils down to is "placebo effect" and maybe also money spent for bragging rights and "one upsmanship"!!!!! Some years ago, I was in the automotive repair industry. I had a neighbor merchant that we used to swap services with. He got to become somewhat a pain in the ass, as he was always complaining that something was wrong with his car. One morning I was in a bad mood when he walked over complaining that his car (a '71 caddy) just wasnt running right. I decided to mess with him a little bit. I pulled his car over to the other side of the lot and opened the hood. I just left it setting there all day with the hood open, but never touched anything under the hood. He came over around 6:00 pm and asked if I was done with his car. I told him I was done with it, but just didnt get a chance to walk back and close the hood. The next morning he walked over to my shop and said to me
"I dont know what you did to it, but it has never ran this good" I just smiled and went on about my work!   P.T. Barnum said it all: "There is a sucker born every minute"!!
                                                    The Slab Bacon

[WBear2GCR]

Sorry OMs,



The topic is complex, and not simple.

DBTs have flaws inherent in the design. These flaws relate to how one hears and processes the sound.
There's no benefit to getting in to this on this forum, so let's drop the topic. Anyway, I will drop the topic, after this post,  it's not AM radio related, now is it?

I will repeat my offer - come here, listen, decide what you can hear or not hear. I don't care one way or the other what you decide. Most folks have no difficulty hearing the sorts of things that I can readily demonstrate.  Few people have heard systems that are clean enough - but that's a topic for another forum too.

The topic has been beaten to death on rahe (usenet group), you can spend a week reviewing the past posts, and the debate amongst very knowledgeable, experienced individuals. It's a moderated group, high S/N.

Fwiw, placebo effect is real, but does not fully account for everything.
There are people who can tell the difference between two things, and those who can't - and of course those who pretend. People can be fooled and do make mistakes. But that's not what's going on here, at the core of the matter.

There have been many in-depth speaker cable tests in the last decade, the L,C & R differences between various commercial cables are well documented. There is little doubt that they can and do have an audible effect in many amp/speaker combinations. The question being debated now is if there are any other effects other than simple L, C & R that may cause audible or measureable differences.

Recent journal published peer reviewed research shows that the audibility of an amplifier is clearly not correlated to mere low levels of THD or IM at all !! Therefore "a 250 watt amp" is essentially meaningless in terms of what one might expect or be hearing (except perhaps in terms of clipping). So, as I said this is a complex thing, not simple. And, not a topic for this forum.

There are fools who drop way too much money on BS that is "gold plated", there's no doubt about that. But, I repeat, it's not all BS.

It's easy to knock everything and paint it with a broad brush - but you don't want AM painted with that brush do you? (rhetorical question)  Some people would like to do so, eh? So, let's not paint any thing else with quite so broad a brush - that's my suggestion. And, let's stick to AM radio and ham radio... there are more than enough forums for all views of the "high-end" audio hobby & business to go around.   

http://www.Audiogon.com
http://www.audioasylum.com

are just two - and the aforementioned newsgroup, rec.audio.high-end
there are others... http://www.diyaudio.com has nice reasoned technical discussions, if you prefer...

       


        _-_-WBear2GCR

PS the probable reason that 'ZGC's forum doesn't get much traffic is because people are already into this stuff for many years on other sites...

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

"DBTs have flaws inherent in the design. These flaws relate to how one hears and processes the sound."


Could you expand on this, I mean scientifically? I'm sure many across all fields of science and medicine would be interested.

[John Holotko]

I just put a $2500.00 ac cable onto  my computer and I noticed a dramatic increase in CPU speed and a large improvement in sound card audio.

[Ian VK3KRI]

I am well aware that the perception of sound is a tricky area, and that there is a huge amount of subjectism involved in what makes one system sound better than another.*  However when I read text that smells like snake oil I generally take the view that it is snake oil - and nearly all of this stuff smells like snake oil.
                              Ian VK3KRI   


 ( Where better in theory means sounds more closer to the real thing, but in practice may mean sounds more like the listener wants to hear. In fact in any modern multi-chanel, processed, studio recording there is no 'real thing' which to measure against. The end sound is a comletely artificial artifact in which the end reproduction system may well be seen as part of the performance. There is no reference for the listener to judge against.)
 
While I'm at it adding postscripts longer than the message, audiophillia is a distraction anyway. If your listenining to music, then its should be the music your listening to. A scratchy old Robert Johnton is not going to be sonically improved by anything more than a reasonably competent system, and indeed was recorded for playback on systems that would now be relagated to the dustbin based on their audio quality. Don't buy a $1500 power cord, buy more music. 

[WBear2GCR]

I am well aware that the perception of sound is a tricky area, and that there is a huge amount of subjectism involved in what makes one system sound better than another.*  However when I read text that smells like snake oil I generally take the view that it is snake oil - and nearly all of this stuff smells like snake oil.
                              Ian VK3KRI   


 ( Where better in theory means sounds more closer to the real thing, but in practice may mean sounds more like the listener wants to hear. In fact in any modern multi-chanel, processed, studio recording there is no 'real thing' which to measure against. The end sound is a comletely artificial artifact in which the end reproduction system may well be seen as part of the performance. There is no reference for the listener to judge against.)
 
While I'm at it adding postscripts longer than the message, audiophillia is a distraction anyway. If your listenining to music, then its should be the music your listening to. A scratchy old Robert Johnton is not going to be sonically improved by anything more than a reasonably competent system, and indeed was recorded for playback on systems that would now be relagated to the dustbin based on their audio quality. Don't buy a $1500 power cord, buy more music. 

There is definitely snake-oil being sold. What I said is that it is not all snake oil and to not paint with too broad a brush. Ok already?

There is a reference. There are many smaller labels that record with extremely high quality, minimalist signal paths (read: STEREO mics, hyper clean, low noise mic pres direct to high bitrate digital recorders) today. Or, if you wish, you can go and record something that you are present for - be it solo voice, chamber music, or whatever. Antique Robert Johnson recordings are something of a red herring to this discussion.

And, yes, buy more music first - I think I said as much.
Usually the people who buy the extreme high end stuff have literally walls full of music. Fyi.

    _-_-WBear2GCR

[WBear2GCR]

"DBTs have flaws inherent in the design. These flaws relate to how one hears and processes the sound."


Could you expand on this, I mean scientifically? I'm sure many across all fields of science and medicine would be interested.

Don't be cute...

The issues are well known.

Take some time to look at the other forums, and educate urself as to the issues.

Short version of just one effect/issue:

Ever drive in your car, flip the buttons on the radio and land in the middle of some bit of music - and not recognize it at all for a few seconds ??  After a few seconds, you figure out what it is, a song you've heard a hundred times or more, and it makes sense? Sure you have. It happens to everyone, all the time.

Think about why that happens, and what is going on, and what that means in terms of "DBT", especially with "quick switching". Slow switching presents other issues... as I said, it's complex.

Let's stop beating this horse?

       _-_-WBear2GCR

PS ...no one is forcing you or anyone else to buy anything they don't like or want. Furthermore, if you buy something via mailorder, the law requires the business that sold it to refund your money withing 30 days, if you ask for it - 99.9% of all dealers will also refund your money. No audio biz especially the small ones can stand negative "buzz", so they all refund money if asked.  So, what's the beef?? You think that the diamond on your wife's hand is really worth what you paid for it either? Does it make her happy? Isn't that enough?

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Who's being cute? I asked for a legitimate scientific explanation for a claim you made. Instead I get an accusation. Hmmmm. If you don't want to discuss, then why bring it up in the first place?

[The Slab Bacon]

Obviously, he paid the big bux for the "oxygen free" speaker wire and the "audio grade" power cords and receptacles! Hmmmm...................................

[Tom WA3KLR]

From the audioasylum.com site Bear referred us to above, stating their posting rules:

"Certain areas of the Asylum have been designated as DBT (Double Blind Testing) free zones. In these designated areas, the topics of DBT and ABX are strictly off limits. Any post related to these topics will be subject to deletion.
These rules cut both ways:

Pro-DBT posts are not allowed.
Anti-DBT posts are also not allowed.
Why are DBT discussions not allowed?
Quite simply, the reason is that these topics rarely spark a productive exchange. While a vast majority of Asylum inmates are firmly in the middle ground, the topics of DBT and ABX tend to force polarization and quickly degrade into death spiraling flame wars.

Is DBT bad?

Some think so. Others do not. From a strictly scientific viewpoint, DBT has proved to be the only method that is generally accepted for determining the audibility of small differences between audio equipment and cables. It does work."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So why don't they like DBT ?  Because it is a scientific method!  It interferes with the audiophool discussions.

[W2VW]

Lawn season is just around the corner and I need some Nitrogen. Please keep this discussion going.

[WBear2GCR]

Ok,

Some people just don't want to  read what is on the page.

I raised a simple point about perception and DBT/ABX - read it again?
One problem is sufficient to confound results. There are multiple problems & issues that are unresolved to date with respect to "DBTs, audio & audible differences". Period.

Read Dr. Geddes work on the bit I cited about the audibility of amplifier THD/IM being entirely unrelated to a direct numerical quantity. The work is sufficient to show that the correlation between measurements, expectations and audibility is as yet quite unclear and uncertain. Then get back to me.

Some people don't understand WHY part of what is admittedly a "rabid tweakers" forum (audioasylum) declared the DBT/ABX issue off limits. The reason? Some people are like "pit bulls" about their position on that topic and won't stop or let it go no matter what. They're fanatics, just on a different bent than some other fanatics.  It says that. And - if you read what it says, it says "certain portions". That's no good for you?

Btw, if you really want to take this position, you want to read Sensible Sound and another similar publication whose name escapes me at the moment... according to them, everything sounds the same. Literally. That means, amps, cables, preamps, CD players, etc... maybe even speakers. Is that what you think?

I suggested rahe as a usenet newsgroup that has had a reasonable and long (years long) debate, discussion and dialog on this topic... take a week or so to review the several years of this topic and then at least come armed with some of the better arguments.

Steve, I responded in specific to your statement/question.
Again, I suggest that if you all want to really discuss hi-end audio, participate in a forum that discusses that topic - coming on here and bashing everything in sight as being foolish is equally foolish to what your aiming at. And, unecessary.

I'd summarize approach of the posters here so far as "...don't bother me with any new ideas or information, my mind is already made up." Which is about the equivalent of a Sidebander saying "AM sucks and Am'rs suck" or an Am'r saying "Slop Bucket sucks and all slop bucketeers suck..." (oh, and add in "I have proof!) Not a particularly nice, collegial, friendly or productive appraoch, no matter what your opinion or postion. Imho, absolutism in the presumptive rationale of correcting a wrong is often as bad as the problem itself.

    73s

            _-_-WBear2GCR

[W2JBL]

     anybody on here got a shovel? it's getting pretty deep! seriously though i think Ian nailed it a few posts back. what exactly are you listening to? a recording. a facsimle of a performance. if you were not present at that performance how does one even know what it sounded like live? if somebody is kind enough to record one of my gigs i like to hear it back, but personally i could care less about how "accurate" the recording may be. i'm more interested in the music. but that was music i made in the past anyway, and it's long gone. i'd rather folks listen to what i'm doing now.

     on the technical side of things, i still have at 49 a very good ear, including high frequency response. the other night i put a nice old N.O.S. Electrovoice cartridge i my turntable in place of an aging Stanton. amazing! cleaner! smoother mids! sparkling highs! BS! after a cursory listen to a few favorite records i realized it was no better or worse than the old one, just DIFFERENT.

     what bothers me about the audiophool biz is that the pricing of "vintage" and "tube" equipment in my case (musician) has put good equipment of that type out of reach of the average picker. this started a good 20 years ago. a good used Fender or Ampeg amp is now out of reach of a guy trying to make a living playing his box at the local NoTell Motel lounge. tube guitar amp theory and practice has become so befuddled with BS that it's laughable. i simply gave up and started building my own amps. now i could hang out a shingle and sell my "botique" amps to hapless folks for 5 grand a pop (6V6 single ended class A noisemaker) but i'm too honest. yet there must be a market because the other pickers around here drool over my "vintage" guiutar tone. unfortunately they don't understand 90% of "tone" comes from the picker. the rest is utter nonsense...

[WBear2GCR]

     <snip> but personally i could care less about how "accurate" the recording may be. i'm more interested in the music.<snip>

exactly - you don't care one way or the other. some people do. and they care about how it sounds to a rather high degree of detail when played back. so the entire matter is irrelevant in your case.
 

   

  on the technical side of things, i still have at 49 a very good ear, including high frequency response. the other night i put a nice old N.O.S. Electrovoice cartridge i my turntable in place of an aging Stanton. amazing! cleaner! smoother mids! sparkling highs! BS! after a cursory listen to a few favorite records i realized it was no better or worse than the old one, just DIFFERENT.

Different it is.
A Stanton is to a Koetsu what a Neon is to an IROC race car...
You compared a Neon to a Cheby Vega...

     what bothers me about the audiophool biz is that the pricing of "vintage" and "tube" equipment in my case (musician) has put good equipment of that type out of reach of the average picker. this started a good 20 years ago. a good used Fender or Ampeg amp is now out of reach of a guy trying to make a living playing his box at the local NoTell Motel lounge. tube guitar amp theory and practice has become so befuddled with BS that it's laughable. i simply gave up and started building my own amps. now i could hang out a shingle and sell my "botique" amps to hapless folks for 5 grand a pop (6V6 single ended class A noisemaker) but i'm too honest. yet there must be a market because the other pickers around here drool over my "vintage" guiutar tone. unfortunately they don't understand 90% of "tone" comes from the picker. the rest is utter nonsense...

I'm sure... being a second rate guitar player myself I get exactly what ur saying. But a Tele just doesn't sound anything like a big ol' solid body Gibson, now does it? 

In the case of high-end audio, the really smart and sophisticated people DIY their systems anyhow. Some end up doing it as a biz too.

Try to keep in mind that if you run a biz that does low volume hand made stuff with overheads you need to make enough profits to pay ur bills and eat - the cost of parts is rather much higher than anyone would like once you add up all the parts... ask yourself how much the typical AM transmitter, homebrewed, at the 300-1kw plate dissipation actually costs in terms of parts and labor then figure in the profit margin - how much would it cost?? Whaddya think it would cost to duplicate an Apache today, what would that sell for? How much can you sell a DX-60 clone for and make a profit??

The main reason that tubes got expensive is twofold - first the Japanese have been hip to DHTs since after WWII and have been buying and importing them since then in substantial volume. The second part is that all the US mfrs (as you probably know) shut down and sold the essential gear to the Eastern bloc countries and china. The Euro mfrs did the same... Then the thrid part is that starting around 1985, Americans started noticing what the Japanese had been doing, and a few select people tried some of their designs here and discovered that damn this stuff sounds good!! 

(that led from 2A3s to 6A3s to 300Bs to 845s/211s... and everything inbetween and aside)

That last part led to more and more people catching on to the idea (implemented across a range of horrific to fabulous) and gobbling up tubes to match... eventually even the "glossy" audio mags noticed and by around 1992-3 the "land-rush" for tubes went berserk, resulting in the insanity of these times - of course, look at what boatanchor AM rigs that you couldn't give away in 1985 cost today! Guitar amps and guitars are no different.


     _-_-WBear2GCR

[wa2zdy]

I posited a few ideas on potential mechanisms for this effect - which btw is greatest or most usually found with digital equipment (CD transports, DACs, and associated preamps). One thought that what is going on is effectively a combination of 1/4wave type stubs/antenna and the interaction with incoming or outgoing noise & RFI via the AC power cord.

I suspect I have my decimal places mixed up here, but I've done it thrice and come up with the same answer.   Even if my decimal place is wrong, the point is still valid. 

You are discussing 1/4 wave stubs - at 60hz.  A 1/4 wave at 60 Hz (and this is where I question my own math) is 7386 miles.  Even if I'm off a point and it's 738 miles, the argument that a more expensive power cord makes a difference is not ludicrous; it's insane.

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.  If the audiofools want to continue making the snake oil salesmen wealthy, that's their business.  If it's their opinion that this stuff makes a difference, that's as fine as it is for me to have the opinion that they're nuts.

I used to live in a community where appearance is everything.  These audioidiots feel they fit better into their society because of the prices they pay.  Great, good for them. In the meantime I like my stereo just fine.

[Tom WA3KLR]

You should note that "members" of the audioasylum.com board are referred to as "inmates".

From their website:
"While a vast majority of Asylum inmates are firmly in the middle ground,"


Even at 20 kHz., a 10 foot speaker cable is way less than 1/8 wavelength - which is one mile.

[John Holotko]

"DBTs have flaws inherent in the design. These flaws relate to how one hears and processes the sound."


Could you expand on this, I mean scientifically? I'm sure many across all fields of science and medicine would be interested.

Don't be cute...

The issues are well known.

Take some time to look at the other forums, and educate urself as to the issues.

Short version of just one effect/issue:

Ever drive in your car, flip the buttons on the radio and land in the middle of some bit of music - and not recognize it at all for a few seconds ??  After a few seconds, you figure out what it is, a song you've heard a hundred times or more, and it makes sense? Sure you have. It happens to everyone, all the time.

Think about why that happens, and what is going on, and what that means in terms of "DBT", especially with "quick switching". Slow switching presents other issues... as I said, it's complex.

Let's stop beating this horse?

       _-_-WBear2GCR

PS ...no one is forcing you or anyone else to buy anything they don't like or want. Furthermore, if you buy something via mailorder, the law requires the business that sold it to refund your money withing 30 days, if you ask for it - 99.9% of all dealers will also refund your money. No audio biz especially the small ones can stand negative "buzz", so they all refund money if asked.  So, what's the beef?? You think that the diamond on your wife's hand is really worth what you paid for it either? Does it make her happy? Isn't that enough?

At least when the day comes and my wife decides to sell that diamond she'll get real money for it. After all it is a diamond. When I go to sell that $2500.00  6 foot AC line cord I won't get bupkis for it, unless I find someone dumb enough to fall for such nonsense.
 

[VE7 Kilohertz]

Well I just can't keep quiet any more. I have to tell you my funny audio story too.

I really enjoy music and come from a very musical family and enjoy listening to music. I spent quite a few years building and tweaking audio components, as a serious hobby, about as serious as I am now with ham radio. I mean, how nuts from an outsiders perspective is it to have multiple broadcast transmitters in your shop? Operational!!

Anyway, I was getting tired of working for someone else and decided to try to turn my hobby into a business, after all, I LOVED audio and playing with electronics. I came up with a couple of Class A designs and built a few prototypes and finally got one I was happy with. (we are getting to the funny part) I had become friends with a fellow in Baltimore who I met while he was in Vancouver on biz. He had written some articles for the audio trade publications and is considered a "golden ear". After he heard my prototype, he invited me to take it to Baltimore and have him and some of the other audiophiles in the area help me with the final tweaks, you know, different cap types, wire, power supplies etc. I took him up on the offer and packed up my 100lb amplifier and braved customs and headed south.

We worked on it a bit for a few days before his friends came over, changing caps and playing with the above mentioned items. I was actually starting to tire of the whole black magic stuff and just wanted to finish the design and get home to start production plans. The other audiophiles showed up and the tests began. There was a lot of soldering and changing and such but the icing on the cake came when my friend decided that the class A bias needed to be adjusted. Okay I thought, that could make a difference, after all, that controls the linearity of the final stage. He sat in the "right position" in the living room with his friends, all except one who went to the rack with me where the amplifier was to watch the adjustments. I started twiddling the bias pot. first one way then the other, while listening to the guys on the floor saying, ohhhhh, that's better, no wait, go back the other way. Keep in mind I was not taking it out of class A, just moving the bias from .5A to .6A and maybe up to .7A. This went on for about 10 minutes and after this, I decided to stop actually turning the pot, just make the motions. Again the Ohhhhs! and ahhhs! ensued and my friend finally decided he had found the sweet spot where the bias was just right. I hadn't moved the pot for 10 minutes. The fellow who was watching me make the "adjustments" was just killing himself laughing and the rest all wanted to know what was so funny. I finally had to stop the tears from rolling down my cheek before I could tell him what I had done. Well boy howdy you never saw so much back peddling and embarrasment. It was all in good fun and I know I sure had fun.  

After the laughing stopped he popped me one.

Now I know the meaning of double blind test.  

Cheers

Paul
VE7KHz

[W1RKW]

I bet a sales person at an audio shop I once worked at years ago that painting CD edges with green paint was a bunch of BS and insisted that if he sells this stuff I was going to complain to the store owner that he's BS'ing his customers.   After a big fight I won but not after having to prove using test instruments that this green paint stuff was  bogus.

[W1RKW]

"Laser S/N ratio"?!! Morons! You're looking for digital information, not a direct analog track.

Don't know if there is such a thing as laser S/N ratio but the signal that does comes off the laser pickup is an analog signal.  Truth be known, the signal that comes off the laser pickup in a cd player is actually an AM signal.

[WBear2GCR]

Well, of course, your AC line cord isn't a 1/4 wave physical length at any frequency near audio... I believe I said (or should have said) acting like a 1/4 wave... more precisely, regardless of the mechanism (could be simple capacitance...) ergo acting like a good or a bad path for HF artifacts...

And, yes I've seen people believe that they are hearing something when nothing has changed at all...
myself and others that I consider friends in the audio hobby tend to be quite skeptical, rely upon measurements as much as possible, and generally do not want to hear any differences when cables, or AC cords get changed.

The green pens notwithstanding, and the Tice clock (although that was a likely noise source) notwithstanding, swapping the coax between ur CD player and DAC is fairly likely to have an audible effect - for no really good reason that anyone can put a solid finger on. But having said that, keep in mind that the entire CD manufacturing business had essentially the same sort of problem for a number of years, (during which time people were also saying it was impossible) until the source (clock jitter/timing) was tracked down and "fixed."

Do it another way, swap transports - hear a difference.
Why?
It's DIGITAL!!
Ought to be no audible difference, right?

Some stuff matters and makes a difference, some doesn't.
Sometimes people fool themselves, sometimes they don't.
Some people can hear things, some can't.

Fools buy overpriced stuff all the time in all sorts of areas and products. Audio is no different. It just may be more apparent to you, having some background in electronics... and you hope the diamond you bought is a good one, and not a clunker with flaws... unless you knew how to evaluate it before you bought it - and tell me why it is worth anything at all, when every damn married woman in the Western world has one? They ain't rare. And, I'm not in any way suggesting that the "$2500 line cord" is a reasonable or sensible product or purchase, fwiw.

As I said before - don't paint in too broad a brush.

          _-_WBear2GCR