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Author Topic: Ham refuses USAF aircraft on emergency net  (Read 36433 times)
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Todd, KA1KAQ
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« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2005, 11:41:40 AM »


John, if an emergency exists, protection of life, property, health or similar circumstances, you are allowed transmit back to an official governmental agency to relay necessary or requested information concerning the emergency.


This is how I remember it too, Jim. I can recall at least twice in the past when the Coast Guard came onto the frequency with no problems. Both times were in response to distress calls at sea. It's been a while but I think the CG station was N M N. They were alerted to the situation by a phone call and came onto frequency to handle the situation. They asked for specific info and called the station in distress. End of story.

It was always my understanding that government/military agencies are permitted on amateur frequencies in times of emergency, as stated by others. Paul has the idea with respect to trolls, and being new the fellow obviously had his hands full. But those who are worried that they need to consult the rule book to see if it's okay to talk to a military aircraft or station need to take a moment to get a little less full of their perceived self-importance and err on the side of common sense. I agree that a callsign is always nice, but even at that, a general reply to all stations listening can get you past that FCC enforcement-phobia. Though the request was not a direct emergency itself, it was related to the ongoing emergency.


Compounding matters, someone apparently on board the plane named "Andrea" also participated, and I thought, oh great, Andrea Mitchell now is on board and wants a chat for her story on NBC tonight.


I remember listening in on the Grenada operation back in the 80s. A college student at the medical school there (Mark Barettella?) was giving reports on one frequency which was declared as 'outgoing traffic only' with other nets for H&W and so on nearby. Someone calls in to the net and tries to ask Mark some questions and is told "this is an outgoing net only". He responds with "Mark, I'd just like to get your thoughts on the situation there...". Net control responds with something like "Are you DEAF or just plain stupid? This is an OUTGOING NET ONLY, do not transmit!". Silence.

Sometime later I read that it was none other than Dan Rather trying to get a story, likely through some ham who worked at CBS. It certainly explains the mentality of the situation.

Too bad we can't get the powers that be to add a Common Sense element as a requirement for getting licensed. No offense intended to the newbie net control, but perhaps someone should have given a bit more thought to who they turned an emergency net over to.
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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2005, 03:45:54 PM »

Pretty easy to become an arm-chair quarterback! Before New Orleans and other Gulf Coast cities are dry, many will be baptized by fire. It IS a major event and many are not prepared. Unfortunately, the finger pointing will come next.

Time to pull together and show the world how the U.S. and the free world responds with caring, kindness, and cooperation.

Hoopie, 
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Todd, KA1KAQ
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« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2005, 04:32:52 PM »

Pretty easy to become an arm-chair quarterback! Before New Orleans and other Gulf Coast cities are dry, many will be baptized by fire. It IS a major event and many are not prepared. Unfortunately, the finger pointing will come next.

True enough for some, but having been personally involved in this stuff for the last 21+ years at some or other level, I can say with certainty that without criticism and identifying and acting on problem areas, it won't get any better. For example, you'd think that in the 21st Century 'we the people' would be prepared for such things on a local level as well as country-wide. Not so. New Orleans is a prime example: the cost for improving their levee system was considered too high. I wonder how it compares to the cleanup and recovery costs? The trick is not to put a happy face Cheesy on it and move on, but to deal with it effectively; Ham radio net control or City Board member. There's certainly nothing wrong with keeping a positive attitude and hoping for the best, but you'd best be preparing for the worst long before it happens.

Quote
Time to pull together and show the world how the U.S. and the free world responds with caring, kindness, and cooperation.

Agreed. Perhaps someone could get word to the losers who hosed one of the local N. O. police stations with gunfire two nights ago, then escaped into the French Quarter. I'm sure they were just venting, showing their frustration with the situation, or whatever other acceptable explanation has come along in the last politically-correct decade or so...
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2005, 06:08:13 PM »

What a difference a disaster makes.  A major disaster in New York and two  leadesr responded with decisive responses.  A major disaster in New Orleans and we have heard almost nothing from the mayor, governor or legislature of Louisana.  Mississippi and Alabama is doing better.

Some of the decisions in New York were wrong, but the population kept their head down and pulled together then critized.  Here we have critical remarks befoe the problems are solved by a former mayor of New Orleans.

This incident proves we need trained personnel in the ranks of radio operators and each and every one of us are at fault.  We all, as amateurs, should be trained in emergency communications, for we never know when we can be of assistance or called upon to perform.

This has been our lesson, let's not forget it.  I must say, that the group on this board probably is less critical and more homogenous than any other group with which I am associated. 

I have encourged the guy who lead the net at the time because he was willing to step up and try.  More than I can say for several groups that populate 75, 40 and 20 meters. 

I have tried not to give destructive analysis  but constructive information.  I hope he understands as you all do.
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2005, 06:18:29 PM »

     The FCC has no jurisdiction over the US military. The armed forces have their own "regulatory body" for spectrum usage. ( I cant remember the name)
      Also, unless the FCC has changed their regs, one may use any frequency, any mode, any time and talk to anyone (involved) during  emergency situations (anyone still have a comercial licensing manual handy? or access to the CFR??).
     klc
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W1UJR
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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2005, 07:01:37 PM »

<snip>
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2005, 07:22:34 PM »

NTIA - National Telecommunications and Information Agency
www.ntia.doc.gov
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John Holotko
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« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2005, 10:36:16 PM »

Agreed. Perhaps someone could get word to the losers who hosed one of the local N. O. police stations with gunfire two nights ago, then escaped into the French Quarter. I'm sure they were just venting, showing their frustration with the situation, or whatever other acceptable explanation has come along in the last politically-correct decade or so...


Just tragic.
I don't think the gunfire was "venting" Todd, just criminals engaging in criminal behavior. Like the sniper who was shooting at hospital personnel during an evacuation.

It has been a most interesting and instructive lesson in eugenic studies to observe who is doing the looting and shooting, as well as their reaction to the disaster.

What does eugenics have to do with anything that is happening there. Poor people are dying, bodies are piling up and rotting, people have no place to go, they have no food, no water, they are wallowing in filth, excrement and probably serious disease soom. I

Quote
1) Some people just yell and piss and moan that the government is not taking care of them. These are typically not property or business owners, but instead live as dependents of the state. It is this group that is committing most of the crimes, looting and violence. Of course one can not expect much more than simple stimulus-response from multi-generational recipients of public largess, the notion of personal responsibly and action never crossed their minds.

Who are you to prejudge who is a "dependent of the state"   and how they are acting, let alone the justification or condemnation of their actions, especially when some of these very people are potentially on the virge of death. It's very easy for us to sit in the privacy  of our safe and untouched air conditioned homes, offices and judge the behaviors of others who are trying to survive in a destroyed  and looded city.

Quote
As I said, the suffering is tragic, made even the more so by the actions of those who seem to be providing empirical evidence of Darwin’s theories as to their own origin.

I don't understand Bruce ?? Which people are proving empirical evidence of darwins theory ??

Quote
I just don’t see the nation coming together like we did after September 11; certainly residents of NYC did not exhibit the extreme behaviors we are seeing on television.

The country is coming together quite well Bruce. Today I donated some of my earnings to the red Cross in hope that  it will reach and assist some of those who are wallowing in a living hell down on NO. many  of my friends and co-workers have donated to the situation. Several of us have even offered our IT skills and expertise if needed in any way shape or form. Americans throughout the country have offered their time, assistance and help. Some have even offered their homes, room and board, clothing, food,  The people of the United States and the people of the world have come together quite well to help those who overnight had their city destroyed and have become homeless, jobless refugees as a result of this disaster. And the really nice thing is that most of us who have reached  out to help in whatever way we can are not looking to prejudge, judge  or condemn people or view them as evidence Darwins theorem or eugenics. Americans want to help.

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W1UJR
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« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2005, 10:55:33 PM »


My observations were to human nature John, acutually more to the point of the lack of personal responsibility.
The thing that gets is me is the way that the news media seems to play up the worse of the worse down there, I turn on the TV and its doom and gloom.
I'm just stunned people did not take the order to evac, despite two days of warning, then tax and overload the very services needed to bail out those who deserve help.

Anyway, I'm off topic, this was to be an discussion on the USAF op coming up on amateur freqs.
I've taken the liberty to my eariler posting comments as a unnecessary addition to this topic.
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W1GFH
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« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2005, 01:21:35 AM »



I'm just stunned people did not take the order to evac, despite two days of warning, then tax and overload the very services needed to bail out those who deserve help.


Many were literally too poor to afford transport out of the city. There were numerous reports of people trying to borrow enough money for gas or bus fare out of New Orleans.  Many more simply did not have anywhere to go.
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GEORGE/W2AMR
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« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2005, 04:27:41 AM »

Agreed. Perhaps someone could get word to the losers who hosed one of the local N. O. police stations with gunfire two nights ago, then escaped into the French Quarter. I'm sure they were just venting, showing their frustration with the situation, or whatever other acceptable explanation has come along in the last politically-correct decade or so...


Just tragic.
I don't think the gunfire was "venting" Todd, just criminals engaging in criminal behavior. Like the sniper who was shooting at hospital personnel during an evacuation.

It has been a most interesting and instructive lesson in eugenic studies to observe who is doing the looting and shooting, as well as their reaction to the disaster.

What does eugenics have to do with anything that is happening there. Poor people are dying, bodies are piling up and rotting, people have no place to go, they have no food, no water, they are wallowing in filth, excrement and probably serious disease soom. I

Quote
1) Some people just yell and piss and moan that the government is not taking care of them. These are typically not property or business owners, but instead live as dependents of the state. It is this group that is committing most of the crimes, looting and violence. Of course one can not expect much more than simple stimulus-response from multi-generational recipients of public largess, the notion of personal responsibly and action never crossed their minds.

Who are you to prejudge who is a "dependent of the state"   and how they are acting, let alone the justification or condemnation of their actions, especially when some of these very people are potentially on the virge of death. It's very easy for us to sit in the privacy  of our safe and untouched air conditioned homes, offices and judge the behaviors of others who are trying to survive in a destroyed  and looded city.

Quote
As I said, the suffering is tragic, made even the more so by the actions of those who seem to be providing empirical evidence of Darwin’s theories as to their own origin.

I don't understand Bruce ?? Which people are proving empirical evidence of darwins theory ??

Quote
I just don’t see the nation coming together like we did after September 11; certainly residents of NYC did not exhibit the extreme behaviors we are seeing on television.

The country is coming together quite well Bruce. Today I donated some of my earnings to the red Cross in hope that  it will reach and assist some of those who are wallowing in a living hell down on NO. many  of my friends and co-workers have donated to the situation. Several of us have even offered our IT skills and expertise if needed in any way shape or form. Americans throughout the country have offered their time, assistance and help. Some have even offered their homes, room and board, clothing, food,  The people of the United States and the people of the world have come together quite well to help those who overnight had their city destroyed and have become homeless, jobless refugees as a result of this disaster. And the really nice thing is that most of us who have reached  out to help in whatever way we can are not looking to prejudge, judge  or condemn people or view them as evidence Darwins theorem or eugenics. Americans want to help.


I don't know why you even respond to this crap John.
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Ed W1XAW
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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2005, 05:40:02 AM »

Agreed. Perhaps someone could get word to the losers who hosed one of the local N. O. police stations with gunfire two nights ago, then escaped into the French Quarter. I'm sure they were just venting, showing their frustration with the situation, or whatever other acceptable explanation has come along in the last politically-correct decade or so...


Just tragic.
I don't think the gunfire was "venting" Todd, just criminals engaging in criminal behavior. Like the sniper who was shooting at hospital personnel during an evacuation.

It has been a most interesting and instructive lesson in eugenic studies to observe who is doing the looting and shooting, as well as their reaction to the disaster.

What does eugenics have to do with anything that is happening there. Poor people are dying, bodies are piling up and rotting, people have no place to go, they have no food, no water, they are wallowing in filth, excrement and probably serious disease soom. I

Quote
1) Some people just yell and piss and moan that the government is not taking care of them. These are typically not property or business owners, but instead live as dependents of the state. It is this group that is committing most of the crimes, looting and violence. Of course one can not expect much more than simple stimulus-response from multi-generational recipients of public largess, the notion of personal responsibly and action never crossed their minds.

Who are you to prejudge who is a "dependent of the state"   and how they are acting, let alone the justification or condemnation of their actions, especially when some of these very people are potentially on the virge of death. It's very easy for us to sit in the privacy  of our safe and untouched air conditioned homes, offices and judge the behaviors of others who are trying to survive in a destroyed  and looded city.

Quote
As I said, the suffering is tragic, made even the more so by the actions of those who seem to be providing empirical evidence of Darwin’s theories as to their own origin.

I don't understand Bruce ?? Which people are proving empirical evidence of darwins theory ??

Quote
I just don’t see the nation coming together like we did after September 11; certainly residents of NYC did not exhibit the extreme behaviors we are seeing on television.

The country is coming together quite well Bruce. Today I donated some of my earnings to the red Cross in hope that  it will reach and assist some of those who are wallowing in a living hell down on NO. many  of my friends and co-workers have donated to the situation. Several of us have even offered our IT skills and expertise if needed in any way shape or form. Americans throughout the country have offered their time, assistance and help. Some have even offered their homes, room and board, clothing, food,  The people of the United States and the people of the world have come together quite well to help those who overnight had their city destroyed and have become homeless, jobless refugees as a result of this disaster. And the really nice thing is that most of us who have reached  out to help in whatever way we can are not looking to prejudge, judge  or condemn people or view them as evidence Darwins theorem or eugenics. Americans want to help.


I don't know why you even respond to this crap John.

If "political correctness" is what makes me squirm when I read this stuff then so be it.  Eugenics . . . Darwin . . .sterilization. . .always seems to pop up when were talking about black folks.  That's just plain wrong and hopefully reflects the thoughts of only a fringe minority in this hobby.  If your feeling no empathy for these people and can't separate the bad apples from the masses perhaps you need to look within.  In my mind we have a moral obligation to provide every person in that mess food , water and shelter as quickly as possible.   Likewise the lawlessness needs to be brought under control ASAP.  73 de Ed
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John Holotko
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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2005, 12:03:50 PM »


My observations were to human nature John, acutually more to the point of the lack of personal responsibility.
The thing that gets is me is the way that the news media seems to play up the worse of the worse down there, I turn on the TV and its doom and gloom.

Bruce Huh Earth to Bruce ?? What planet are you on  ?? It IS the worst of the worst down there. It IS nothing but gloom and doom down there. An entire CITY is functionally wiped out and may never be again. Thousands upon thousands of people are HOMELESS., they have no jobs, no drinkable water, no food, no place to go... NOTHING...NADA!!  They are wiped out. People who are sick wuith heart conditions, diabetes, strokes, people in need of routine medical care and medications are stuck, they have to go without it. Some of them have already dropped dead in the Superdome and there was NOTHING anyone could do to help them or save them. Dead bodies are floating around and nobody can even deal with it yet. The potential for rapid spread of disease is extremely high.  No toilets, bo  sanitation. It's a living hell for those people down there , right now This is one of the WORST natural disasters in US history, it's  nothing but pure hell and doom and gloom. Don;t you get it ??

Quote
I'm just stunned people did not take the order to evac, despite two days of warning, then tax and overload the very services needed to bail out those who deserve help.

Bruce, they couldn;t evacuate,  there was no way  for  them  to evacuate. Many of those people are poor, they don;t own cars. There was no busses running, no public transportation available to them.  Most of them had no practicval way to get out in time to avoid the storm. Not everyone in this great land is wealthy enough to afford the priveledge of a private car, boat or plane.  I think there are some  people who  simply feel  these people are poor and thus we should write them off and forget about them, or that somehow it is their own fault that they are in this horrendous predicament. .  This is a time when people need help  not judgement.





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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2005, 12:57:01 PM »

Bruce, they couldn;t evacuate,  there was no way  for  them  to evacuate. Many of those people are poor, they don;t own cars. There was no busses running, no public transportation available to them.  Most of them had no practicval way to get out in time to avoid the storm. Not everyone in this great land is wealthy enough to afford the priveledge of a private car, boat or plane.  I think there are some  people who  simply feel  these people are poor and thus we should write them off and forget about them, or that somehow it is their own fault that they are in this horrendous predicament. .  This is a time when people need help  not judgement.

With this logic all the criminals down there shooting, looting and raping must be sick and can't walk John?
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W1GFH
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2005, 01:50:39 PM »


From USA TODAY on 8/29 (before Katrina hit):

Quote
Terry Ebbert, New Orleans director of homeland security, said more than 4,000 National Guardsmen were mobilizing in Memphis and will help police New Orleans streets.

The Louisiana Superdome, normally home of professional football's Saints, became the shelter of last resort Sunday for thousands of the area's poor, homeless and frail. Among those who lined up for blocks as National Guardsmen searched them for guns, knives and drugs were residents who hobbled to safety on crutches, canes and stretchers.

"We just took the necessities," said Michael Skipper, who pulled a wagon loaded with bags of clothes and a radio. "The good stuff — the television and the furniture — you just have to hope something's there when you get back. If it's not, you just start over."

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/stormcenter/2005-08-28-katrina-gulf_x.htm
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Todd, KA1KAQ
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« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2005, 01:56:52 PM »

With this logic all the criminals down there shooting, looting and raping must be sick and can't walk John?

That was what I was trying to make reference to in my previous post, Jim. Exactly. Of course there are decent, helpless people suffering in this disaster as in all disasters. Probably the majority, even. My remark was meant more to encompass the entire situation with respect to the inexperienced net control as well as the entire civil infrastructure down there. Simply saying nice sounding things about 'those poor people', throwing out money after the fact or anything else that isn't done pre-emptively is too little, too late.

Bruce, I'm sorry to have missed your original post since you have removed it. I agree in principal with what you're saying here since the 'feel good' folks out there have created a lot of this dependency on government over the last 3-4 decades. It's true that many ill, crippled, or otherwise poor folk were not able to evacuate. The sickening part is a city and state government that has known for sometime the devastation lurking around the corner and not only didn't take corrective measures with the 'safety net' (levee system), but apparently had no organized evacuation plan in place for these people. Had they provided this, it would be much easier for law enforcement to get in there and wipe out the slime element doing the real looting, raping, murdering, arson and the rest.

Jim is correct that all of us are responsible to the extent that we enjoy ham radio as a hobby with far too few giving anything back in the 'service' aspect. That should be a much greater concern to us than BPL, elimination of the CW requirement, or anything else. If the FCC really wants to save money, they could just as easily eliminate ham radio and not have to deal with licensing, enforcement, or the rest of it. With very little cutting edge discovery being done via ham radio these days, public service is about the only thing we have left to claim.

We have no control over natural disasters happening. We have total control over the man-made (or is it 'people-made'?) effects, including pre-disaster training and preparedness. Unfortunately most are content with doing nothing, or waiting until after the fact.
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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2005, 04:46:28 PM »

The thread seems to have drifted off topic, so I'll continue the tangent. Listening to 14.3965 or there abouts late this morning, heard a conversation about Houston PD already having their hands full with some of the refugees from New Orleans. Seems the low-life which were rescued along with the good law-abiding residents of New Orleans were roaming the parking lot of the Houston Astrodome and attempting to and/or robbing the people of Houston.

Nothing like bitting the hand that feeds you. Gotta wonder if mankind should interfere with the Good Lord when he inserts the hose to give the earth an enema.  Undecided

Hoopie,
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GEORGE/W2AMR
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« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2005, 05:04:57 PM »


My observations were to human nature John, acutually more to the point of the lack of personal responsibility.
The thing that gets is me is the way that the news media seems to play up the worse of the worse down there, I turn on the TV and its doom and gloom.
I'm just stunned people did not take the order to evac, despite two days of warning, then tax and overload the very services needed to bail out those who deserve help.

Anyway, I'm off topic, this was to be an discussion on the USAF op coming up on amateur freqs.
I've taken the liberty to my eariler posting comments as a unnecessary addition to this topic.


Since 2000, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has been studying the idea of reinforcing the levees to withstand a Category 5 storm, the strongest on the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale. The 300 miles of existing levees, at 17 feet, were designed to protect New Orleans – parts of which are as much as 10 feet below sea level – from no more than a Category 3 hurricane.

"We certainly understood the potential impact of a Category 4 or 5 hurricane," Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the Corps' chief of engineers, told reporters Thursday in a telephone briefing.

Last spring, the Army engineers' New Orleans office complained that budget cuts proposed by the Bush administration and approved by Congress "will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs."

Thompson said the Corps' arguments contain "significant merit."

"What concerns me is the fact that for the last several budgets, the president has pretty much zeroed out a lot of the Corps' work," Thompson said. "We [in Congress] always had to go back in and try to help. I have not seen flood control as a real priority in this president's budgets."

The levee construction is one of two massive public works projects that hurricane experts say could have protected New Orleans from Katrina.

Since 1990, Louisiana's congressional delegation has sought funding – a total of $14 billion – to restore the state's coastal marshes and barrier islands. Scientists say the marshes and islands act as a first line of defense for New Orleans and the region's other populated areas by absorbing much of a storm's force.

Built to prevent incessant flooding, the New Orleans levees also interrupted the natural flow of water to the marshes south of the city. Before the levees were built, that flow carried sediment that could restore the wetlands, which are under constant barrage from waves and wind.

According to LSU's Hurricane Center, which has studied the matter extensively, more than 1 million acres of wetlands have disappeared since 1930. LSU scientists estimate that the area is losing 28,000 acres a year – the equivalent of a football field every half hour.

"At the start of every new hurricane season on June 1," Stone said, "Louisiana has become more vulnerable to storm surge inundation and surge damage than it was the previous hurricane season."

Yet, 15 years after the restoration began, Congress has appropriated just $540 million of the $14 billion needed to complete the project.

"This is a regrettable demonstration of ignoring the magnitude of the problem," Stone said. "That could well have retarded some of the water finding its way" into the city.

"What's been missing is a sense of urgency," said U.S. Rep. Bobby Jindal (R-La.), a longtime proponent of coastal restoration. After Katrina, he said, "hopefully, it will help us convince people who weren't convinced before."

Some scientists, along with public officials, have questioned whether the project's benefits would be worth its cost.

Stone, referring to some of the worst casualty estimates, put it in starker terms: "How do you weigh the economic value against four or five or six thousand deaths?"

Staff writer Julia Malone in Washington contributed to this article.


Alan Judd writes for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. E-mail: ajudd@ajc.com



 
 
   
 
 
 
 
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John Holotko
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« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2005, 05:57:48 PM »

The thread seems to have drifted off topic, so I'll continue the tangent. Listening to 14.3965 or there abouts late this morning, heard a conversation about Houston PD already having their hands full with some of the refugees from New Orleans. Seems the low-life which were rescued along with the good law-abiding residents of New Orleans were roaming the parking lot of the Houston Astrodome and attempting to and/or robbing the people of Houston.

Nothing like bitting the hand that feeds you. Gotta wonder if mankind should interfere with the Good Lord when he inserts the hose to give the earth an enema.  Undecided

Hoopie,

IIn a disaster of this magnitute where the need for sheer survival is essential it can be expected  that some people are going to do things like looting out of desperation. Indeed that was the case  in new Orleans where some people looted for things like food, drinkable water, medications and other things required to sustain  themselves and / or keep  themselves and their families alive. Under the circumstances at hand I would consider such "looting" as more a matter of desperation and survival  than "looting". For many stuff like water, foor, medicine, clothing, etc. is vital and taking it as a means of pure survival is par for the course under the extremely unusual and deadly circumstances.

However, there are a small minority of people who are wickedly taking advantage of the situation for personal gains or simply because they can exploit the situation and get away with it. Thus we have heard of such things as rapes, shooting and other related incidents. Such incidents are not due to "desperation" or"survival" or direct need, they are due to sheer arrogance and cruelty.

However, we have to be  careful to recognize that such people  form a minority down there. The masses of people are in a dire life and death situation from which there is no easy escape and they need all the help and supplies they can get. We have to be carefull not to judge or condemn the masses based on the action of a handful of idiots.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2005, 06:20:07 PM »

Bruce, they couldn;t evacuate,  there was no way  for  them  to evacuate. Many of those people are poor, they don;t own cars. There was no busses running, no public transportation available to them.  Most of them had no practicval way to get out in time to avoid the storm. Not everyone in this great land is wealthy enough to afford the priveledge of a private car, boat or plane.  I think there are some  people who  simply feel  these people are poor and thus we should write them off and forget about them, or that somehow it is their own fault that they are in this horrendous predicament. .  This is a time when people need help  not judgement.

With this logic all the criminals down there shooting, looting and raping must be sick and can't walk John?

Jim, many of the "looters" down there were seen stealing things like food, drinkable water, medicine, etc. It's easy for us to sit here  miles and miles away  where we can't see, hear, feel or smell the stench of this disaster and declare "how dare someone steal  something". It is another thing when you are starving, have no water to drink, are diabetic and have no insulin, or asthma medication,meedical care or when your child is dying of thirst or hunger and you are compelled to gain access to what you need as a matter of survival. Sure, technicaly it is wrong to take anything that does not belong to  you regardless of the circumstances. A  crime is a crime is a crime, whether you do it for the heck of it, or whether you  do it out of desparation and survival. However, as human beings with brains and common sense I think we are  capable of drawing a line of distinction between some low life slob who takes advantage of a situation like this to rape someone  or shoot someone, or to steal for pure personal  gain, versus someone who steals  a bottle of water or some food so they can stay alive and/or keep their family alive. Under the circukmstances at hand I think we are  compelled to use our human senses ahead of technical criteria.

As far as the lowlifes who are raping, shooiting,  or stealing tv sets, computers etc. well, that is just plain wrong. Yet, a rational thinking person can clearly see the difference between that type of  crime and let's say a man who  takes some baby formula to feed his child or a woman who takes a vial of insulin to keep her grandmother alive,  or  someone taking a bottle of clean drinking water.. It is also important to realize that most of the rapists and shooters are likely a relatively small but yet very visible minority down there.

What I  find most amazing that in what is probably  the worst diaster in US history  where virtually an entire city is destroyed there is such a focus on a minority of "bad guys" and such a priority on judging the  masses of  people criminals and condemning them as "iirresponsible" when the focal thought should be about helping these people survive this tragedy .

.
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2005, 07:16:03 PM »

As far as the lowlifes who are raping, shooiting,  or stealing tv sets, computers etc. well, that is just plain wrong. Yet, a rational thinking person can clearly see the difference between that type of  crime and let's say a man who  takes some baby formula to feed his child or a woman who takes a vial of insulin to keep her grandmother alive,  or  someone taking a bottle of clean drinking water.. It is also important to realize that most of the rapists and shooters are likely a relatively small but yet very visible minority down there.

What I  find most amazing that in what is probably  the worst diaster in US history  where virtually an entire city is destroyed there is such a focus on a minority of "bad guys" and such a priority on judging the  masses of  people criminals and condemning them as "iirresponsible" when the focal thought should be about helping these people survive this tragedy .

Well for some reason the TV networks mostly show those people doing the looting.  Our brave newscasters are afraid to get pictures of the shooters and rapists.  Gives me the impression most of them can walk or could have gotten to a shelter and stayed there.  Wonder what the city buses, city police cars, parish trucks and sheriff's office vehicles did the three days before the storm struck. 

By the way, where is the Governor of the Great State of Louisana?  I know Bush spoke to her following the storm.  I wonder what she requested?  He promised all three governors anything they asked to be delivered.

I hate to see this.  It seems as if those who get something for nothing are the most critical.  I can't help it John that is what I am seeing on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC and PMSNBC.  Show me someone who is appreciative and I will change my views more to the left.  Tell me John, what are we looking at, Downtown Baghdad?

Funny in the Tsunami coverage, we didn't see this side as prevalent as we are now.
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W1UJR
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« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2005, 08:40:45 PM »

As far as the lowlifes who are raping, shooiting,  or stealing tv sets, computers etc. well, that is just plain wrong. Yet, a rational thinking person can clearly see the difference between that type of  crime and let's say a man who  takes some baby formula to feed his child or a woman who takes a vial of insulin to keep her grandmother alive,  or  someone taking a bottle of clean drinking water.. It is also important to realize that most of the rapists and shooters are likely a relatively small but yet very visible minority down there.

What I  find most amazing that in what is probably  the worst diaster in US history  where virtually an entire city is destroyed there is such a focus on a minority of "bad guys" and such a priority on judging the  masses of  people criminals and condemning them as "iirresponsible" when the focal thought should be about helping these people survive this tragedy .


John, I'll say this and then I'll leave this thread alone.

First, this is a terrible tragedy, aside from 9-11, the worse tragedy of my lifetime.

However, unlike 9-11, not all the folks there are victims.

John, you express surprise at "the focus" on the bad guys.
Why are you surprised? Of course the nation is surprised and shocked the behavior of these folks; it deviates from the acceptable moral values and norms of the majority of fellow citizens. Most Americans do not loot, shoot at police and medical workers, rape and pillage during natural disasters. Such is beastly behavior being carried out in New Orleans by beasts that should be shot down. It reminds me of the madness and mindless savagery of the LA riots.

The government warned for more than 2 days, on radio, TV and other public media, the need to evac, it was "mandatory", not an option, not a suggestion, not a good idea. As for transportation, public transport was available, plenty of it. There were options, don’t left Jesse Jackson and his ilk deceive you. As Bill O’Rielly pointed out last night, there is a significantly sized element that stayed just to raise havoc, chaos, loot, shoot and take advantage of the situation. In ironic poetic justice many of those became victims themselves.

Speaking of deception just saw the “Reverend” Jackson on CNN saying that the response was slow because the victims are poor and black. The "Reverend" even went so far as to compare the situation in New Orleans to the 246 years of suffering slavery. Once again the "Masters of Deception" play the race card, distracting from the work at hand. Note to “Reverend” Jackson, hurricanes and tropical storms are color-blind.

God forbid, what did we do 5 or 50 years ago before FEMA? Americans came together, took personal responsibility and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps. Even today my staff was taking exactly that. The consensus was if this is the best the government can do with a disaster in a moderate size city with two days warning, what are they going to do in the event of an unplanned terrorist attack on a major metropolitan area?

Do those folks need help, you bet! They deserve every thing we can give them as a nation. However, if there is a lesson to be learned here, and everything is a teaching experience, it is NOT to depend on the government, local, state or federal to bail you out in the event of a disaster. Be prepared and heed warnings.

My point John, interesting how it drew you out, was that instead of just taking care of themselves, so many of victims are stuck in a stimulus-response mode, just like Pavlov’s dogs. They can’t or won’t seem to fend for themselves, the point I was making was that this was a result of decades of breeding out personal independence and responsibility. It is a state which psychologists term “learned helplessness”. I can think of no greater injustice and more evil lie to teach people. Political leades and "Masters of Deception" have stolen these folk's sense of self-worth and independence and replaced it with the enslavement of dependence. Most egregious of all, this has been done largely for political reasons, to consolidate power, by those on both sides of the aisle. The “Masters of Deception” are again at work here, blaming it on the race card, the “evil” Bush administration for not raising the level of the levies, the slow response of FEMA because the victims are poor and black, anything to divide and conquer and not deal with the real problem, a natural disaster of near biblical proportions.

That was my point; it’s not about skin color, but the content of one’s character.

Certainly our hearts and prayers are with the folks in New Orleans, and with those working in extreme conditions to restore public order and services.
They are folks who have not believed the lie, have not bought into learned helplessness, and for that we all both thankful and grateful.

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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2005, 09:19:35 PM »

One other thing is that more people who live North, South, and East of New Orleans, in Missippissippi and Alabama were impacted as well and you haven't heard of the chaos remaining there today.  Wonder what happened in Grand Isle, LA?  Anyone know?  Hummmmm!
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2005, 04:46:54 AM »

God forbid, what did we do 5 or 50 years ago before FEMA? Americans came together, took personal responsibility and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps. Even today my staff was taking exactly that.

If I had got caught there, I would have made every effort to get out any way I could, even if it meant hiking out on foot, rather than staying there and starving or dying from disease.  But according to a report on Fox News, there was a check point along the only unflooded road leading out of the city, and they wouldn't let anyone past.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2005, 01:32:22 PM »

As far as the lowlifes who are raping, shooiting,  or stealing tv sets, computers etc. well, that is just plain wrong. Yet, a rational thinking person can clearly see the difference between that type of  crime and let's say a man who  takes some baby formula to feed his child or a woman who takes a vial of insulin to keep her grandmother alive,  or  someone taking a bottle of clean drinking water.. It is also important to realize that most of the rapists and shooters are likely a relatively small but yet very visible minority down there.

What I  find most amazing that in what is probably  the worst diaster in US history  where virtually an entire city is destroyed there is such a focus on a minority of "bad guys" and such a priority on judging the  masses of  people criminals and condemning them as "iirresponsible" when the focal thought should be about helping these people survive this tragedy .


I hate to see this.  It seems as if those who get something for nothing are the most critical.  I can't help it John that is what I am seeing on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC and PMSNBC.  Show me someone who is appreciative and I will change my views more to the left.  Tell me John, what are we looking at, Downtown Baghdad?

Funny in the Tsunami coverage, we didn't see this side as prevalent as we are now.

Jim, thiose who are not dead are quite greatfull. They are greatfull for their lives. Some are in such misery they probably  wish they were dead. The bottom line is people are desperate. They are in crisis. They have no food, no drinkable water. It''s not easy for  people to smile, feel high and chipper when they are  up to their necks in filthy water, are watching themselves and their families dying of thirst, have no food, no medicine and have no place to even go to the toilet as they watch the dead carcasses  of their neighbors float  by them. It's easy for press people and  others to sit in comfotable air conditions  homes and offices miles away from the reality of this disaster and judge people as looters, criminals, ungreatful welfare recipients, portray the masses of people as rapists, shooters , etc because of  the actions of a few lowlife bums. At the same time who am I to judge a person walking out of a supermarket with bottled water  or some food or medicine as a "looter" or "criminal". For all I know he is simply doing what he has to do to keep himself  and his family  alive, i.e. survive. Heck, under similar circumstances I might do the same darned thing if the life of my family and neighbors was at stake. What I am saying is that people need help, dire help  and we as a  nation have  an obligation to set  our partisan left versus right views down, to set  aside our prejudgement and condemnation of people aside and give these people every bit of help we can to get them through this in every way we can.
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