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Author Topic: Ham refuses USAF aircraft on emergency net  (Read 36426 times)
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w3jn
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« on: August 31, 2005, 10:02:03 AM »

This is beyond appalling.  What was this guy thinking?

click me

edit - try it now, fixed the link
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2005, 10:05:47 AM »

I don't know, but it looks like it got pulled.  The qrz site shows an error message.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2005, 11:55:37 AM »

now that is sad

must be a 3 box top ham rice box driver
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Paul, K2ORC
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2005, 12:47:17 PM »

What a disgrace and furthermore, what an a_hole.   I can't wait to see how that story makes the rounds in the military. 
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Go Duke![/b]
Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2005, 01:36:38 PM »

What a disgrace and furthermore, what an a_hole. I can't wait to see how that story makes the rounds in the military.

Sorry, but I'm appalled after reading this...

Took the words right out of my mouth, Paul. Another pompous, self-important schmuck lacking common sense putting another nail in the ham radio coffin.
It doesn't say much for the training that ARES provides before unleashing newly-minted hams as net controls.


-BIll
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2005, 01:49:44 PM »

 Angry

What a peckerhead!

This wingnut actually thinks the FCC is going to come down on him for talking to a military aircraft flying into one of the most powerful hurricanes ever to threaten American soil?

--. . - / .- / -.-. .-.. ..- . / -.-- .- / --. --- -.. -.. .- -- -. / .-. . - .- .-. -.. / .-.-.-
Of all the stupid, asinine, bonehead things a ham can do, this is WAY beyond them all. Radio (not just ham radio, either) Rule Number One:

IN AN EMERGENCY, ANYTHING GOES.
And these guys on QRZ are actually debating which regulations apply, lending creedence to this stupidity! Makes me proud to be a very vocal ex-member of QRZ.

Sweet Jesus Harold Christ, this guy could have gotten somebody killed by putting the regulations in front of someone's health and welfare. When is some organization that actually has a clue going to step forward and train these people? Is there anybody left in this fading republic that has BAs enough to actually do the right thing as opposed to the correct thing?

Let's all take a moment to thank this clown for illustrating how totally useless and irrelevant ham radio has become in times of emergency.

Nail. Coffin. Bang. Bye-bye ham radio.

--Thom
Kilimunjaro Africa One Zulu Goat Cheese
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2005, 02:03:58 PM »

I'd reply to you Thom, but I'm busy searching the FCC database for any Lousiana public safety agencies that might be illegally transmitting on an expired or otherwise defective FCC license.

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Ed KB1HVS
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2005, 02:33:32 PM »

Angry

What a peckerhead!

This wingnut actually thinks the FCC is going to come down on him for talking to a military aircraft flying into one of the most powerful hurricanes ever to threaten American soil?

--. . - / .- / -.-. .-.. ..- . / -.-- .- / --. --- -.. -.. .- -- -. / .-. . - .- .-. -.. / .-.-.-
Of all the stupid, asinine, bonehead things a ham can do, this is WAY beyond them all. Radio (not just ham radio, either) Rule Number One:

IN AN EMERGENCY, ANYTHING GOES.
And these guys on QRZ are actually debating which regulations apply, lending creedence to this stupidity! Makes me proud to be a very vocal ex-member of QRZ.

Sweet Jesus Harold Christ, this guy could have gotten somebody killed by putting the regulations in front of someone's health and welfare. When is some organization that actually has a clue going to step forward and train these people? Is there anybody left in this fading republic that has BAs enough to actually do the right thing as opposed to the correct thing?

Let's all take a moment to thank this clown for illustrating how totally useless and irrelevant ham radio has become in times of emergency.

Nail. Coffin. Bang. Bye-bye ham radio.

--Thom
Kilimunjaro Africa One Zulu Goat Cheese
Who needs clues?
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2005, 03:02:28 PM »

Who needs clues?

ARES: Amateurs Rejecting Emergency Services

The truly sad part is that a REACT weenie probably would have been more helpful. At least he would have given the guy the information he asked for! Even if it was wrong, reverberated, clipped, and roger-beeped, he'd have given the guy something!

Someone should send this guy an OO card for dereliction of intelligence.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2005, 03:19:25 PM »

I can't believe there are so many psuedo lawyers out there.  Who would question whether a military weather data collection aircraft should not be answered?  After all a weather data collection aircraft did request local weather infomation.

Good for you JN on your reply.  I added one and hope it added fuel to the fire.

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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2005, 03:32:41 PM »

[
ARES: Amateurs Rejecting Emergency Services

The truly sad part is that a REACT weenie probably would have been more helpful.

I recall a photo on the Hamsexy.com site that showed a bumper sticker something on the order of:  "ARES - getting in the way since 1951"
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2005, 03:53:46 PM »

I'm probably going to take a lashing here but from what I just read, (QRZ restored the thread) the NCS was new and going by the rules. However they found a way to compromise the situation. A station was giving conditions of different QTH's and made sure he mentioned Biloxi, (the condx the C-130 requested), every 10 minutes without making it a direct response to the aircraft. I think we need to take a deep breath instead of a reactive knee jerk to the situation. The NCS was damned if he don't; damned if he do. In the end, they covered all bases. Of course, there was one interesting response about K1woMAN posted in the same thread Grin
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Mike(y)/W3SLK
Invisible airwaves crackle with life, bright antenna bristle with the energy. Emotional feedback, on timeless wavelength, bearing a gift beyond lights, almost free.... Spirit of Radio/Rush
Ed KB1HVS
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2005, 04:17:44 PM »

[
ARES: Amateurs Rejecting Emergency Services

The truly sad part is that a REACT weenie probably would have been more helpful.

I recall a photo on the Hamsexy.com site that showed a bumper sticker something on the order of:  "ARES - getting in the way since 1951"
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KB1HVS. Your Hi Value Station
KC4ALF
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2005, 04:42:40 PM »

Idiot!
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2005, 05:05:55 PM »

I'm probably going to take a lashing here but from what I just read, (QRZ restored the thread) the NCS was new and going by the rules.

No lashing but consider that a Military Weather Data plane was asking for a local weather report in a state of emergency declared before the storm reached the coast.   As far as I am concerned that was appropiate communications.

You have a new, rather untrained, rather inexperienced ham acting as a control of a semi-official net.  I wonder about the properiety of the decision of managers of the net to appoint someone who lacked vast experience in emergency  matters.

To put in a plug for the ARRL of years past, at least they provided guidenance on protocol and operational matters that permerated amateur radio.  Today, in order to give that experience to hams, they are offering courses to operators so they may gain certification in that very arena.  Currently, we sometimes have untrained, inexperienced and (sometimes) incompetent people in control of our emergency networks until they pass a certification test we all should know.  After all without emergency volunteers and expertise, there would be no ham radio (or may not be in the future).
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2005, 05:14:14 PM »

Well stated, Jim.

By comparison, I had to undertake weeks of training, pass a test and spend some time in grade before I was permitted to be NCS of any Army MARS nets. And ARES..?

Yes, the fellow was big enough to apologize for a mistake, and IMO the problem boils down to that he was green and permitted to run a very public net during a major national emergency without any experience and probably not much training, either. So who is *really* responsible, and what can we learn to prevent future such embarrassments?

..Bill
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WA3VJB
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2005, 05:42:25 PM »

I actually monitored this exchange, and Anthony handled it pretty well, even if he erred on the side of caution.

The plane's crew was asking for information about Biloxi, and W8ANT, following protocol, asked a couple of times to learn a call sign.  Based on what had been going on this was a way to separate whether this was yet another comment from the gallery that were being uttered along the way.

No call sign, and he was cordial about it when he said this "is a gray area" and said if they could come up with a call sign he'd be glad to help.

There was no way to verify that this was a C-130, or some bogus troll setting the guy up.

Compounding matters, someone apparently on board the plane named "Andrea" also participated, and I thought, oh great, Andrea Mitchell now is on board and wants a chat for her story on NBC tonight.

I'd give the guy a break.  Yes, he would have been given credit for using good judgment if he HAD provided the information, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt in case he sniffed something phony about the whole situation.

Paul/VJB
--------------------
Here's his post to QRZ.com
___________

It was interesting, that during the SATERN Net tody, we had a Hurricane Hunter C-130 come on frequency and ask about current conditions in Buloxi, MS.  Most of his crew lives there.

It was very difficult to tell them that they had no privileges on frequency unless a)they had a licensed amateur aboard or b)life or death emergency, which the answers to both were "no".

They were told they could monitor but could not transmit.  Sucks we had to tell them that, but what choice did we have?


Anthony - W8ANT
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wa2zdy
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2005, 06:17:29 PM »

I was the lawyer who said I wasn't a lawyer on that thread.  Yes, I think the guy should have gotten his Biloxi info.  But while he was flying in the eye of the 'cane, his request for info was not an "emergency."  However, as I found in 97.111(a)(3), think the aircraft qualified as a US Government Station, so the exchange would have been legal anyway.


I wasn't listening to the net so I can't say what the situation really sounded like.  So I can't tell whether or not the situation was clear or not.  I'll go with Paul's summary as accurate.  From all I've read of the incident as confirmed by Paul, the NCS, W8ANT was indeed in a tough spot.  I personally don't think he should have been NCS at all, based solely on his HF experience.  From all accounts he did a fine job.  So the gamble of letting a new HF op run the net went ok. 

When a newer ham asks a legal question, I try to research it and give him the legal answer.  As to the specifics of that particular sitauation, again, I wasn't there.

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K8TEK
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2005, 07:07:07 PM »

Idiotic ham hump
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2005, 07:11:25 PM »

I was the lawyer who said I wasn't a lawyer on that thread.  Yes, I think the guy should have gotten his Biloxi info.

When a newer ham asks a legal question, I try to research it and give him the legal answer.  As to the specifics of that particular sitauation, again, I wasn't there.

I apologize, but legal reasearch takes months and that is like nailing jello to the wall, every lawyer has a different opinion.  The NCS should have clarified to whom he was communicating and when established, should have passed the information.  If he couldn't make that deterimation then do as suggested, transmit the information in the clear to another station on frequency, or have another station give the report. 

These things can be assessed rather quickly by someone who has experience.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2005, 07:17:54 PM »

Well, technically he was following the rules which leads me to the question,  under what conditions are we allowed (or should talk to talk to non-liscenced, non-amateur radio stations, I guess considering the state of  emergency it could be considered a life and death situation.

If it  were me I would have given the guy the weather report. My attitude is screw the damned rules, I'll talk to whomever I deem it nessesary to  talk to under the circumstances. If some OO wants to make a fuss about it he can stick it. If the FCC wants to pull my ticket then so be it. I don;t care. If a transmission needs to be made I'm gonna make it license or no license, rules or no rules. Vital communications come first as far as I am concerned.
 

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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2005, 07:26:36 PM »

Speaking of training, how many of you know how to convert the current day to Julian?  Part of the training Bill mentioned? 

John, if an emergency exists, protection of life, property, health or similar circumstances, you are allowed transmit back to an official governmental agency to relay necessary or requested information concerning the emergency.

A state of emergency existed at the time of the exchange(declared on Friday by Pres. Bush)  and the net control admitted he identified who the transmitting station was.  Given that fact alone, he could have lawfully passed the information.  Although he should have asked another station to give the report to him or given it to another station if he were in doubt.  That is part of the training.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2005, 08:16:04 PM »

Speaking of training, how many of you know how to convert the current day to Julian?  Part of the training Bill mentioned?  {/quote]

easy...

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.html

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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2005, 09:47:40 PM »

Speaking of training, how many of you know how to convert the current day to Julian?  Part of the training Bill mentioned?  {/quote]

easy...

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.html


John, could you have done without this calculator?  Proper message handling requires many different aspects and you are to be commended for searching.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2005, 01:04:34 AM »

Speaking of training, how many of you know how to convert the current day to Julian?  Part of the training Bill mentioned?  {/quote]

easy...

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.html


John, could you have done without this calculator?  Proper message handling requires many different aspects and you are to be commended for searching.

Okay, if I had to do a conversion (convoishin as they say in Brooklyn)  off the top of my head right now I would probably fail. It's been a long time since I've converted dates and I'm rusty. I am sure if I spent a little time reviewing the conversion I'd be able to do it fine. Of  course if I had lots and lots of dates to convert I'd probably use a computer.
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N2IZE<br /><br />Because infinity comes in different sizes.
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