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Ed KB1HVS
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« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2005, 05:18:59 PM »

 Lucky for me I can walk to my job. My wife on the other hand has to drive to her job. She figures it will be another  $30-$40 extra per month. That makes a difference in this house. School starts in 2 weeks and I have to cough up 245 clams for the bus passes for my kids  this week. They are talking about higher fares that they will have to pass on when the fuel prices increase.  Angry  (piss&moan mode off)


 $2.60 a gallon today. $2.54 yesterday.
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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2005, 06:04:40 PM »

Hi:

This reply is kinda for Bruce, but anyone please chime in:

Yes I tend to be a defeatist. Yes I tend to think the sky is falling.

But why would an auto manufacturer recall all their fully electic vehicles when most of the leasees are begging to keep them?

Why is there a waiting line for the Prius?

I do feel that the fully electric competition is pushed out of operation, not by demand, but by petroleum based interests. Where did Solectra go?

I also wonder why there are not more refineries. Would a limited supply through these refineres cause higher prices?Huh?

I think it is all Baxter's fault!

Anyway, it was good to hear ya on 75 AM this weekend.

This is a good thread.

73
Dan
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W1UJR
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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2005, 07:10:27 PM »

Hi:

This reply is kinda for Bruce, but anyone please chime in:

Yes I tend to be a defeatist. Yes I tend to think the sky is falling.

But why would an auto manufacturer recall all their fully electic vehicles when most of the leasees are begging to keep them?

Why is there a waiting line for the Prius?

I do feel that the fully electric competition is pushed out of operation, not by demand, but by petroleum based interests. Where did Solectra go?

I also wonder why there are not more refineries. Would a limited supply through these refineres cause higher prices?Huh?

I think it is all Baxter's fault!

Anyway, it was good to hear ya on 75 AM this weekend.

This is a good thread.

73
Dan
W1DAN

Hi Dan,

First, please take my earlier comments as tongue in cheek, you are a fine fellow and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

Now, onto the auto business, which I can speak to with some insight as it has been my profession for the last 20 years.

The first thing you must understand is that the auto manufacturers are scared to death of product liability.
I would wager that the largest cost, after employee salary and benefits, is warranty and product safety issues.
Right now Ford may have to recall up to 14 million vehicles due to an electrical defect.
Every mistake has colossal implications.

Why do the manufacturers want to crush the EVs?
Its simple, most people could not afford to buy them outright, so they were leased and the lease is up.
Ford and GM has deep pockets and do not want the liability of someone hurting, killing, maiming, burning another person with an EV.
People sue, it’s a fact, and they first target those with the deep pockets.
A manufacturer can be sued, 5, 10, 15 even 20 years after a product is built.
Do you want to be liable for the first generation of EVs 20 years from now?

Let's face it, Ford, GM and other manufacturers are in business to make money.
They will sell only products will allow a favorable ROI, unless forced otherwise.
It is not a conspiracy, it is common business practice.

If the demand is there, and a profit can be made, you can bet that the auto manufacturers will make it.
I am sure that as the technology does progress, you will see more and more EVs available and in service.

It’s not a conspiracy, its just business.
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« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2005, 01:04:57 PM »

Hi Bruce:

No harm taken at all...this is a good chat, and I appreciate your professional experience.

A friend at work was explaining the dynamics of the stock market gas futures and how the US oil reserves are well stocked right now.

Here is an idea that I would like to do sometime...modify a Prius to run substantially on the electric motor instead of the approximate 50/50 gas/electric:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html

I just wish that fully electric vehilces were available.

Have a good weekend.

73
Dan
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W1RKW
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« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2005, 12:36:55 PM »

Frank is right.  There is a $3.11/gal. in my dumb town.  The price was at a Sunoco.  $3.11 for full serve premium. Why I didn't see it before, who knows. Ouch. 
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Bob
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« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2005, 12:55:48 PM »

Hi Bruce:

No harm taken at all...this is a good chat, and I appreciate your professional experience.

A friend at work was explaining the dynamics of the stock market gas futures and how the US oil reserves are well stocked right now.

Here is an idea that I would like to do sometime...modify a Prius to run substantially on the electric motor instead of the approximate 50/50 gas/electric:

I just wish that fully electric vehilces were available.

Have a good weekend.

73
Dan
W1DAN


     That's exactly what some Prius owners are doing. The people who have a short commute can run pretty much without lighting the gasoline engine. It depends on the cost of recharging at home. Also if heat is needed, the best source is wasted heat from the gas powerplant.

     Earl Ferguson, W0SEV has a Prius and we all got the grand tour early this spring after he drove it out from Colorado. Great car.

As far as fully electric vehicles: where is the electricity going to come from and what will it cost? If the recharge is cheap then you are all set.



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W1UJR
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« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2005, 05:37:31 PM »

As far as fully electric vehicles: where is the electricity going to come from and what will it cost? If the recharge is cheap then you are all set.



That’s really the point Dave; you hit it right on the head.

Most of the electrical power, or at least a good percentage, does not come from environmentally friendly generation. Aside from the tailpipe emissions, where is the real benefit to the environment. You still have to have some “evil” corporation burn coal to generate the power to make that electric to recharge your car’s batteries.

I would be most curious to see what the true cost per mile is, both in dollars and in power plant emissions, for the electro-cars. I’d wager that it has a worse impact than our current gasoline vehicles. Anyone have any info on this?

This is exactly why I get a kick out of the granola set self-righteously cruising around in their electro-mobiles with the “Earth - Love Thy Mother” stickers on the rear bumper. They just have no idea.

The main reason I think electro-cars should be developed is to decrease our reliance on oil from the Middle East. The sooner we get untangled from that rat’s nest the better.
Both of our Founding Fathers Washington and Jefferson warned us to “beware of foreign entanglements”.

I just don’t want to see Ahab the Arab get any more of our petrol dollars so they can then fund terrorists to attack this country.

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John Holotko
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« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2005, 09:46:37 PM »

As far as fully electric vehicles: where is the electricity going to come from and what will it cost? If the recharge is cheap then you are all set.

That’s really the point Dave; you hit it right on the head.

Most of the electrical power, or at least a good percentage, does not come from environmentally friendly generation. Aside from the tailpipe emissions, where is the real benefit to the environment. You still have to have some “evil” corporation burn coal to generate the power to make that electric to recharge your car’s batteries.

I would be most curious to see what the true cost per mile is, both in dollars and in power plant emissions, for the electro-cars. I’d wager that it has a worse impact than our current gasoline vehicles. Anyone have any info on this?

Nothing comes free. Electro-cars are not a complete answer to the devestating impact of millions of gas burning cars. They may be beneficial in certain areas of high congenstion, like urban areas, where thousands upon thousands of gas burning cars in one small congested area may be having a detrimental impact on the local environment and health, But overall, electro- cars still pollute.

Quote
This is exactly why I get a kick out of the granola set self-righteously cruising around in their electro-mobiles with the “Earth - Love Thy Mother” stickers on the rear bumper. They just have no idea.

Well, they may be on the right track.

Quote
The main reason I think electro-cars should be developed is to decrease our reliance on oil from the Middle East. The sooner we get untangled from that rat’s nest the better.
Both of our Founding Fathers Washington and Jefferson warned us to “beware of foreign entanglements”.

What are you trying to put Bush, Cheney and Halliburton and their Saudi oil pals out of business ?? Perish the thought...

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W1UJR
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« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2005, 10:24:18 PM »

What are you trying to put Bush, Cheney and Halliburton and their Saudi oil pals out of business ?? Perish the thought...


News flash John..... I am a Patriot, not a partisan.

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John Holotko
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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2005, 05:43:26 AM »

What are you trying to put Bush, Cheney and Halliburton and their Saudi oil pals out of business ?? Perish the thought...


News flash John..... I am a Patriot, not a partisan.



That's all well and good Bruce. But in this world money talks loudest.

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2005, 11:50:45 AM »

Yup, That $3.11 is the highest price on the way to the beach. My Son is keeping track.
Hauling a big battery around sounds foolish. They are big bucks and full of nasty stuff. A properly designed fuel cell running on a common fuel like natural gas is clean and light. There is plenty of frozen gas off the coast or it could be synthesized. Electric is too inefficient looking at the whole picture.
When people stop buying cars things will change and not until.
Cars seem to be working well on 10% corn mash how about upping it to 20%
A windfall profit tax on the gas Co. sounds great to me. Free market is one thing antitrust is another.
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2005, 03:07:48 PM »


Here is an idea that I would like to do sometime...modify a Prius to run substantially on the electric motor instead of the approximate 50/50 gas/electric:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html

I just wish that fully electric vehilces were available.

Have a good weekend.

73
Dan
W1DAN

Modifying vehicles is one of the reasons auto companies are worried about product liability.  Stupid juriors would look past the modifications and hold the car company liable for any major damage, probably saying they should have been built to prevent modifications..

Speaking of batteries, does anyone know what kind of batteries these thing have in them?  It seems as if a vehicle containing several was involved in a major accident, the collision migh crack open the case of one or more of the batteries.  Could that not be a real hazard?  I know the cars run on 48 volts and rescue squads are taking courses to know where to cut the metal and where not to cut.  They are saying the elecrics are much more dangerous that the vehicles we drive now for the member of the rescue people.

Where are the environmentlists when you need them?
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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2005, 10:41:44 PM »

And the station across the street wanted a left gonad...........


* Gas.jpg (11.79 KB, 180x180 - viewed 705 times.)
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Glenn NY4NC
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« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2005, 03:54:25 PM »

My other hobby is flying radio contolled, electric powered model airplanes. Within the past 5 years there have great strides in both electric motor and battery technology to the point where electric powered aircraft are now surpassing the perfomance of similar sized gas powered planes. (flight times and horsepower) A combination of weight reduction, high performance brushless motors and high discharge rate Lithium ion batteries are making this possible. Apparently this new technology is making it's way into experimental autos as mentioned in the CNN article. Using solar panels and wind for charging is the key to fossil fuel independance. I big forward jump in solar panel technology would sure help the situation.


"Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said."

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W1RKW
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« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2005, 06:35:34 AM »

I wonder if it's possible to charge batteries with rf energy.  There's plenty of it floating around.
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Bob
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« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2005, 11:55:34 AM »

My other hobby is flying radio contolled, electric powered model airplanes.

"Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said."


Cool on the electric RC planes, Glenn. Didn't know they were doing that.

As for the $12,000 modification to the car...  It's always the same thing: "I can buy a lot of gas for that much money".  ie, $12,000 at $2.50 per gallon = 4,800 gallons. At 20 mpg, that's 96,000 miles that a car has to drive just to break even. A lot more if it is already an economy car getting 25 mph++.

Too bad.  It reminds me of the electric wind mill technology. I checked it out once - using power and also selling the excess back - it would take 5-8+ years to break even, assuming the generator, batteries, drives, etc didn't break down. That's buying everything new and not being creative. But hams could do better, I'm sure... Grin

Economics is a bitch and the great equalizer, but that's always the way it is in the beginning of good technology.

T
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Glenn NY4NC
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« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2005, 02:27:07 PM »

Hi Tom;

Yep, $12,000 doesn't make sense but a do-it-yourself approach certainly would be way less than that, in true ham homebrew style... Battery prices need to come down...

Did anyone mention a steam powered vehicle?  Cheesy Cheesy

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John Holotko
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« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2005, 03:13:14 PM »

My other hobby is flying radio contolled, electric powered model airplanes. Within the past 5 years there have great strides in both electric motor and battery technology to the point where electric powered aircraft are now surpassing the perfomance of similar sized gas powered planes. (flight times and horsepower)

Only problem I have with the electrics is that they are too quiet. I grew up with model  aircraft flying . For a large part of my life I was into gas powered control line, U control. We (me and  my friends)  did some crazy stuff with that including our famouse "camera plane". A friend of mine has a picture of me flying two control line planes at once on the beach while in the water. We even taught a couple girls we knew how to fly that day. I bult tons of planes and still have a few sitting in the attic.  I got into gas powered RC. later on. These days  I've been inactive in the hobby and do  most of my flying on computer flight sim.

The new electrics are pretty amazing and  you're right, the performance is incredible and in all seriousness I am interested in building one  one day. But I am still addicted to the scream of a gas engine, the smell of glow fuel (alcohol + nitro) and that thick film of unburned castor  +  synthetic oil that sprays out of the exhaust ports and literally covers the whole damned plane.




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Glenn NY4NC
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« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2005, 04:22:15 PM »

Quote
Only problem I have with the electrics is that they are too quiet. I grew up with model  aircraft flying. For a large part of my life I was into gas powered control line, U control.

Yes! nice and quiet!.. one of the reasons I didn't want to fly gas planes was that god awful noise.. sounds like a swarm of giant bees  Shocked Control line? that always amazed me how they didn't get dizzy and fall down after going around in a circle for 5 mins.. Grin


Quote
The new electrics are pretty amazing and  you're right, the performance is incredible and in all seriousness I am interested in building one  one day. But I am still addicted to the scream of a gas engine, the smell of glow fuel (alcohol + nitro) and that thick film of unburned castor  +  synthetic oil that sprays out of the exhaust ports and literally covers the whole damned plane.

You should try them John... amazing stuff... you won't miss those slimers one bit, and you can throw away your chicken stick!  Grin Grin Grin







Quote
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2005, 08:39:59 PM »

Hey, let me ask you Easties something...
With the high price of heating oil there, why don't more folks use electric heat or heat pumps? They ought to work great in coastal areas south of, say, New England where extended single-digit or colde rtemps aren't all that frequent or prolonged.

I'm also thinking of the geothermal heat pumps using buried pipes that use the earth as a heat sink in the summer and a heat source in the winter.


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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2005, 09:01:40 PM »

I had a heat pump in an apartment in the Washington DC area.  It worked fine, and heating wasn't too expensive at $0.06 per KWH.  It had an electric heater for quick heat if needed.  I had no complaints.
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« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2005, 06:17:29 AM »

I'd like to strap one of these babies into an airplane and learn how to fly it at 200+mph.
http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/model-jet-engine.html
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Bob
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« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2005, 10:21:56 AM »

An amateur pilot I know is attaching a commercial jet engine to a glider. I should check up on his progress.

Gas prices in the DC suburbs of Virginia peaked just below $3/gallon last week: $2.799/reg, $2.899 mid, $2.999/high, then they dropped about 5 cents by Friday.
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« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2005, 01:25:02 PM »

An amateur pilot I know is attaching a commercial jet engine to a glider.


Another 2006 Darwin Award candidate?

..
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2005, 09:03:16 PM »

Darwin candidate - I really don't know.  He does stunt flying in a cool little biplane, and he has a glider that can carry him and another person.  He says he's going to put the jet engine onto the glider.  I guess it'll be fast...
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