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Author Topic: London hit again  (Read 27488 times)
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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2005, 12:03:44 AM »

Quote from: Bacon, WA3WDR
Very good, Hoopie.  You just bombed an ally!

Pakistan is a nuclear power, its government is friendly to the USA, and the Pakistani government is pursuing the terrorists the best they can, given the US sabotage of their work.

The Pakistanis have been working diligently with US and British authorities to track down the leads the Pakistanis found in the computer of Mohammed Naeem Noor Khan, a former al-Qaeda operative who was captured in 2004 and convinced to serve as a mole (a double agent).  Unfortunately, the Bush administration then proceeded to leak Khan's identity, forcing British authorities to make a frantic grab of whoever they could, since their operation was not complete.  In fact, that leak probably allowed the 7/7 and the 7/21 bombing attacks to succeed.  And it was a US leak.

http://photodude.com/article/2483/wrath-over-khan

You bombed an ally.  I submit that you know nothing about conducting a war on terror.  Your angry knee-jerk reflex would cut down our allies, and throw gasoline on the fire.  You need to stop and think.


On tonight ABC news, Mussariff admitted 50% of his nation supports Osama. If he had Osama in his hands, would he turn him over to the U.S.? The answer was a political NO! Yes we do have strange allies, Bacon.

I'd rather not try to appease another Hitler. Bombs away. Batter up, who wants to be next?

I'm a hawk
Hoopie
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W1UJR
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2005, 12:10:14 AM »

Quote from: wa1knx
bruce,
         there will be no end times, unless we screw with china or whats
left of the ussr arsenal. terrorists might pop off a nuke in a city or two.
bar that, an asteroid. or a plague maybe.  but the earth will be here for
a long time.  my super religious buddy said we were doomed
2000, christ was coming 2000. I told him the sun will come up jan 1 2000
it did . .  rest easy. btw, are you one of the earth-is-only-10000 +- years old believers?



Well Dean, at some point the world is going to end.
All things come to an end, its just the way nature works.
But unlike your friend I don't know the day, actually I don't think anyone on earth knows the exact day.

However, if the Islamists manage to "pop off a nuke in a city or two", I don't think that this country will just walk away from licking our wounds.
I believe it will begin the slippery slope. This nation went into two wars over 9/11. A nuke or WMD discharged in NYC, Chicago or LA would bring an even greater response, most likely nuclear. I believe our President stated the nuclear option was on the table just a few years ago.

I see this as pretty simply, its Islam vs the Judeo-Christian world, and brother you and I are right in the crosshairs.
Its a struggle which has been going on for thousands of years but has now escalated to a higher level with the Islamic equalivent of Hitler.

In response to your question, I'm not sure that I know the exact age of the earth, where did the age you reference come from?


.
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2005, 03:08:51 AM »

Quote
On tonight ABC news, Mussariff admitted 50% of his nation supports Osama. If he had Osama in his hands, would he turn him over to the U.S.? The answer was a political NO!

"A political NO" - what is that supposed to mean?

I didn't see the ABC show, but you know, Musharraf turned over Abu Faraj Farj al Liby (bin Laden's former #3 man) in May of this year.  That takes a lot of guts, if 50% of his nation supports bin Laden.  Why wouldn't he turn over bin Laden (if he caught him)?

I think you just want to lash out, and you don't care where.  Bomb somebody!  That's exactly the kind of thinking that got us into the Iraq War, and left bin Laden out running free, in the first place.  We can do better.

Pakistan does a good job... except when the USA leaked their informant's name.  I am beginning to suspect that the reason they can't seem to find bin Laden is because Bush doesn't WANT them to.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2005, 03:36:20 AM »

Quote from: WV Hoopie
Quote from: Bacon, WA3WDR
Very good, Hoopie.  You just bombed an ally!

Pakistan is a nuclear power, its government is friendly to the USA, and the Pakistani government is pursuing the terrorists the best they can, given the US sabotage of their work.

The Pakistanis have been working diligently with US and British authorities to track down the leads the Pakistanis found in the computer of Mohammed Naeem Noor Khan, a former al-Qaeda operative who was captured in 2004 and convinced to serve as a mole (a double agent).  Unfortunately, the Bush administration then proceeded to leak Khan's identity, forcing British authorities to make a frantic grab of whoever they could, since their operation was not complete.  In fact, that leak probably allowed the 7/7 and the 7/21 bombing attacks to succeed.  And it was a US leak.

http://photodude.com/article/2483/wrath-over-khan

You bombed an ally.  I submit that you know nothing about conducting a war on terror.  Your angry knee-jerk reflex would cut down our allies, and throw gasoline on the fire.  You need to stop and think.


On tonight ABC news, Mussariff admitted 50% of his nation supports Osama. If he had Osama in his hands, would he turn him over to the U.S.? The answer was a political NO! Yes we do have strange allies, Bacon.

I'd rather not try to appease another Hitler. Bombs away. Batter up, who wants to be next?

I'm a hawk
Hoopie



 Islam is the second largest religion in the world, Islamic followers live in every country in every corner of the globe including the United States and throughout England  and Western Europe.. Viewing all Islamists as the enemy and taking them by force likely means fighting in all corners of the globe and probably would druive us into total bankruptcy within very short order, not to mention bin laden and his band of extremists would probably have  added followers... What';s the point ??  Only way to win is to work with those whom you have on your side and try and convince them not to buy into the rhetoric of a minority of extremists and focusing on neutralizing the fanatical hatemongers behing the attacks.  Thus far thats not the direction we're going. Attacking Iraq instead of focusing on neutralizing bin-laden. I
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W1UJR
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2005, 09:18:28 AM »

Quote from: John Holotko
Islam is the second largest religion in the world, Islamic followers live in every country in every corner of the globe including the United States and throughout England  <snip> Only way to win is to work with those whom you have on your side and try and convince them not to buy into the rhetoric of a minority of extremists and focusing on neutralizing the fanatical hatemongers behing the attacks.  Thus far thats not the direction we're going. Attacking Iraq instead of focusing on neutralizing bin-laden. I



John, you are an intelligent man, you must be kidding, right?
You can't negotiate with Evil; you can't cut deals with the Devil.

If World War II taught us anything, it is that appeasement does not work with fanatics.
Chamberlain made deal after deal with Hitler (our present day Bin Laden) only to have them broken time and again.

The parallels between Nazism and modern Islamic extremists are striking.
Both seek world domination and imposition of a one world government.
Both seek the installation of a central leader, in my biblical view the “Anti-Christ”.
Both are intolerant of any other faith and actively seek to kill Jews and “Infidels”.
Both are willing, even eager, to employ methods of mass murder to reach those goals.
Finally, both have Evil at their core.
Please tell me how you work with that John?

Just as every German was not a Nazi, so I see that every Arab is not a Islamic savage. However, you must destroy the system and those who lead it in order to save the people. I think we agree on at least that much.

What Churchill called “The Gathering Storm” in the 1930s has its later day equivalent in Islam. I wager if he were alive he would see the same problem, and the same answer. People taught Churchill had it wrong as well, it was only when it was almost too late, almost all of Europe was overrun, that they realized how right he was. Would you wait, cutting deals, trying to wage peace until the bombers are at your door?

You can not run from Evil, you must turn and face it directly and fight.
And you must fight to win. Our entire Western World, all that we hold dear – life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - are under attack by these savages.

Once again, if World War II taught us anything, it is to take the fight to the enemy rather than wager war on the homefront. I believe that is precisely what our President is doing.

Would you want to see the devastation currently in London, Israel and Baghdad on American streets?

John, I don't hold out a hope of convincing you, I'll let the Islamists do that job for me.

.
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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2005, 09:24:03 AM »

Quote from: Bacon, WA3WDR
Quote
On tonight ABC news, Mussariff admitted 50% of his nation supports Osama. If he had Osama in his hands, would he turn him over to the U.S.? The answer was a political NO!

"A political NO" - what is that supposed to mean?

I didn't see the ABC show, but you know, Musharraf turned over Abu Faraj Farj al Liby (bin Laden's former #3 man) in May of this year.  That takes a lot of guts, if 50% of his nation supports bin Laden.  Why wouldn't he turn over bin Laden (if he caught him)?

I think you just want to lash out, and you don't care where.  Bomb somebody!  That's exactly the kind of thinking that got us into the Iraq War, and left bin Laden out running free, in the first place.  We can do better.

Pakistan does a good job... except when the USA leaked their informant's name.  I am beginning to suspect that the reason they can't seem to find bin Laden is because Bush doesn't WANT them to.


Well Bacon, for the sake of our generation I hope you and Neville can do better. We are counting on you, man.

I'm a hawk,

Hoopie
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2005, 11:11:12 AM »

You gonna go fight that war yourself, Hoopie?  Because RAND says US forces are stretched too thin already with just Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Pakistani government is doing what they can.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4706415.stm

Nuke the middle east to glass?  And waste all that great oil?  No way!  Nooooo, we have to spread democracy or something.  Don't worry, Karl Rove will come up with this week's talking points.

Previous talking points, now abandoned:
Osama #1 priority
WMD
al-Qaeda connections
Iraq-Niger uranium
freeing the Iraqi people
spreading democracy
world better off without Saddam
US safe because of taking the war to the enemy
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John Holotko
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2005, 12:45:37 PM »

Quote from: Bacon, WA3WDR
You gonna go fight that war yourself, Hoopie?  Because RAND says US forces are stretched too thin already with just Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Pakistani government is doing what they can.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4706415.stm

Nuke the middle east to glass?  And waste all that great oil?  No way!  Nooooo, we have to spread democracy or something.  Don't worry, Karl Rove will come up with this week's talking points.


[People are  genuinly frightened and frankly I can't blame them. We are finding ourselves living in a world that just ten short years ago nobody ever imagined.  Bacon,  when I first got my  ticket and started getting on AM you were one of my very first AM contacts. That was on around 1988 or 1989. In those days I would never have dreamed we'd be living in a world  where the entire world trade center was destroyed, where subways in London are bombed, where we live under the constant threat of terror, and where there would be constant surveillance,. searches and interrogation of people simply travelling to work on the subway, where police resources would be stretched not for fighting the usual everyday crime, but for  looking for some unknown fanatic.   The world sure has changed a lot in such a short time and it is scary. Especially  for those who have children. What is  their world going to be like for them ?? And no politicians seem to be able to provide an answer nor  much reassurance.  We hear statements about strong resolve anout fighting the war over therer  instead of here of getting rid  of Saddam, yet  the "mastermind" bin-laden remains free, we hear  that Iraq didn;t have the WMD's and the Yellowcake from Nigeria, and the barbaric cowardly attacks continue.  People leave  their homes in the morning woindering if they'll get home at night. It's a very  frightening world.  No doubt we have some serious challenges and problems that need to be solved. Simply  turning the middle east into Trinitite is not likely  going to solve this mess. We need leadership who can make a real  difference.
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W1UJR
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2005, 01:31:47 PM »

Quote from: John Holotko
We are finding ourselves living in a world that just ten short years ago nobody ever imagined.  Bacon,  when I first got my  ticket and started getting on AM you were one of my very first AM contacts. That was on around 1988 or 1989. In those days I would never have dreamed we'd be living in a world  where the entire world trade center was destroyed, where subways in London are bombed, where we live under the constant threat of terror <snip>



Hey John, care to share the "religon" of the people who have comitted all of the crimes which you have mentioned? The "faith" of the folks who murdered all of those innocents?

You might find the answer to your question there.
I'll give you a hint, I'm pretty sure its not the Baptists or Presbyterian.
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2005, 02:42:11 PM »

Yeah, and over in the middle east they say something similar, but the hated religion is different.  Outside empires came in and installed crooked governments, and Christians came in and installed crooked governments too.  The USA overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran, and installed the Shah.  After a while, they don't like that stuff over there.

And it's interesting who the troublemakers turn out to be.  Noriega - a US stooge.  Saddam Hussein - a former US stooge who was paid off to harrass the Iranians after their 1979 revolution and kidnapping of the US embassy personnel.  (Shake hands wth Mr. Rumsfeld, Saddam.)  Osama bin Laden - a US proxy holy warrior fighting against the former Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

Maybe our foreign policy does have something to do with it?  Hmmmm?
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wa1knx
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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2005, 04:02:16 PM »

Bruce,
       that figure is a rough number, that many of the extremely religious
christians believe is how old the earth is.  (10,000 to 15,000 old or some such)  I got into a conversation on a plane flight, with a minister over it.
I argued well,, coal mines, oil, grand canyon, and finally the light from
the stars one the other side of the galaxy (let alone other galaxies) had
taken 100k light years to get to us. he still believed the in the 10-15k
time for the universe. so I asked why would god make it LOOK like the earth + stars were millions of years old, to trick us? the guy didn't have an answer. I'm not sure why this is an hot issue for some of them.

       as to the end days, we have 5 billion years left in the sun. after
that no more earth. long before that we stand a good chance of
being wiped out by an asteroid. long before that, mankind stands a better
chance wiping himselve out with nukes, creating a killer virus,
or simply running out of oxygen.

      as to the devil being the cause of world woes, one can certainly
put that word to it, whether he exists or not, devilishness is a mindset.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2005, 05:53:46 PM »

Quote from: W1UJR
Quote from: John Holotko
We are finding ourselves living in a world that just ten short years ago nobody ever imagined.  Bacon,  when I first got my  ticket and started getting on AM you were one of my very first AM contacts. That was on around 1988 or 1989. In those days I would never have dreamed we'd be living in a world  where the entire world trade center was destroyed, where subways in London are bombed, where we live under the constant threat of terror <snip>



Hey John, care to share the "religon" of the people who have comitted all of the crimes which you have mentioned? The "faith" of the folks who murdered all of those innocents?

You might find the answer to your question there.
I'll give you a hint, I'm pretty sure its not the Baptists or Presbyterian.


Bruce, I have a distaste for ALL religion. I would like to see people dump religion altogether and base their lives in more tangible things. But I realize that is not going to happen. So  I have to respect that some people chose a religion and via that religion they follow God.  Nor am I going to condemn any one religion because of the actions of a few much as I am not going to condemn all Christians because of the Crusades or for burning innocent people at the stake or for blowing up abortion clinics. I realize that the actions of a few crazed fanatics does not speak for everyone.  Any religion can become the presumed basis for evil actions. History has provent this to be true.  Consider the terrosist actions oif the IRA that have occurred over many many years. Does that mean that all Catholics are evil people and that Catholicism is the basis for IRA violence and all Catholics are potential IRA terrorists ?? Does it mean all Irish people are evil ?? Please, we can't form these over simplifications and broad sweeping generalizations.

Yes, we do have a serious problem on our hands and yes, many of it's perpetrators appear to be Islamic fundimentalist or are at least using Islamic fundimentalism as part of the lame excuse for their actions.  we need to solve this probelm. Simplifying matters by claiming it is all caused by some "evil" religion is not going to solve anything.
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John Holotko
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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2005, 05:59:27 PM »

Quote from: wa1knx
Bruce,
      as to the end days, we have 5 billion years left in the sun. after
that no more earth. long before that we stand a good chance of
being wiped out by an asteroid. long before that, mankind stands a better
chance wiping himselve out with nukes, creating a killer virus,
or simply running out of oxygen.
 as to the devil being the cause of world woes, one can certainly
put that word to it, whether he exists or not, devilishness is a mindset.


Deano, thanks for a logical and scientifically based synopsis of the "end of the earth" question. Science is the only tangible path we have towards gaining knowledge of our world and the Universe around us.
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W1UJR
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2005, 08:37:36 PM »

Quote from: wa1knx
Bruce,
       that figure is a rough number, that many of the extremely religious
christians believe is how old the earth is.  (10,000 to 15,000 old or some such)  I got into a conversation on a plane flight, with a minister over it.
I argued well,, coal mines, oil, grand canyon, and finally the light from
the stars one the other side of the galaxy (let alone other galaxies) had
taken 100k light years to get to us. he still believed the in the 10-15k
time for the universe. so I asked why would god make it LOOK like the earth + stars were millions of years old, to trick us? the guy didn't have an answer. I'm not sure why this is an hot issue for some of them.

       as to the end days, we have 5 billion years left in the sun. after
that no more earth. long before that we stand a good chance of
being wiped out by an asteroid. long before that, mankind stands a better
chance wiping himselve out with nukes, creating a killer virus,
or simply running out of oxygen.

      as to the devil being the cause of world woes, one can certainly
put that word to it, whether he exists or not, devilishness is a mindset.


Hi Dean,

I have never heard that date or age stated, nor to my knowledge is it in the bible. I do believe that God created the earth, just not sure of the exact date, I'll find out someday.

Yes, I do agree with you that devilishness is a mindset, but it is also a very real thing. I can think of no other word than Evil for the actions which have been the topic of this thread. All too often I find that people seem to think "Evil" is not a PC word, it is real and it exists.

And I agree with you once again about your observances of mankind's ability to wipe himself out, seems we do more wiping than building as of late.

Cheers,
Bruce


.
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wa1knx
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2005, 09:57:52 PM »

Hi John, Bruce
         tx for the kind words. science probably isn't the only path.  Bruce is right, we have a set of principles to live by.  That is why I took the its-ok-to have the ten commandments in court buildings position. taking god
out doesn't diminish the words.  life ends, the world will end. live for
something of value in your time.
         bill kc2ifr said it best,, if you need the 10 commandments posted to behave, then there is something wrong with you!
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W1UJR
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2005, 08:26:32 AM »

Quote from: John Holotko
I am not going to condemn all Christians because of the Crusades or for burning innocent people at the stake or for blowing up abortion clinics. I realize that the actions of a few crazed fanatics does not speak for everyone.  Any religion can become the presumed basis for evil actions. History has provent this to be true.  Consider the terrosist actions oif the IRA that have occurred over many many years. Does that mean that all Catholics are evil people and that Catholicism is the basis for IRA violence and all Catholics are potential IRA terrorists ?? Does it mean all Irish people are evil ?? Please, we can't form these over simplifications and broad sweeping generalizations.



John, I think you may have misread my earlier post.
Unlike Islam, I do not see a religion which vocally supported the IRA actions, no cheering or applause from the sidelines. As for the Crusades, the history of the Crusades is one of Western Christian reaction to Muslim advances in Europe. The Crusades were no more offensive than was the American invasion of Normandy.

But let's leave ancient history aside, and deal with what is going on today.
The Islamic world by and large supports the actions of the terrorists, of that you can not argue.

One thing that I want to make clear, and if you reread my earlier post you will see this point, I don't have a problem at all with the Arab people, what I have a problem with is what Islam does to them.

Example, not all Germans, or not all Nazis for that matter, worked in concentration camps. Just as not all Muslims commit terrorists’ actions.
The problem is the ideology, not the people.

Why was Nazism not allowed to stand after the Second World War?
Because it was an evil idea that lead good people into bad actions.
I submit to you that Islam is exactly the same.
Again, I repeat an earlier point; the goals of Nazism and Islam are very, very close. I won't reiterate the points again here.

Yes, we can not kill all Arabs, it would be both foolish and wrong.
But we can and must kill the concepts of Islam which lead to destructive behavior if the civilized world is to survive. It is much easier to destroy one Evil idea than to destroy millions of people.

John, I know that you are a good guy and are compassionate to those of the underclass, that’s a trait of a good liberal, and I respect you for that.
I myself am a realist; things are much more black and white for me. I see Islam as a far greater threat than the former Soviet Union ever was. What  has failed to be pointed out is that Islam is not so much a relgion as it is a form of goverment. The state goal of Islam is to establish Islamic one world goverment.


Quote from: John Holotko

Yes, we do have a serious problem on our hands and yes, many of it's perpetrators appear to be Islamic fundimentalist or are at least using Islamic fundimentalism as part of the lame excuse for their actions.  we need to solve this problem. Simplifying matters by claiming it is all caused by some "evil" religion is not going to solve anything.



"Many"? Try ALL John. Aside from a few isolated nutjobs, the main source of terrorist action from the 1990s to currnent has been Islam. You don't have the Swiss, Swedes or Catholic nuns blowing up airplanes, murdering schoolchildren or blowing up buses. Please take a few minutes and look back at Islamic terrorism over just the last 3 years, nearly 5,000 incidents of murder and destruction.

I tell you; Islam is going to make Nazism look mild. Heck it already does, at least the Germans were controlled and private about their mass murder, the Islamists do not care who or where they kill. Indeed they take pride and publish the photos...with little or no outcry from the Islamic world.

Again, Nazism was only recognized as a clear Evil after it was almost too late. If we keep up the “politically correct” game of pretend and continue to label Islam a "Religion of Peace" we are just lying to ourselves and will lose that which we hold most dear.

I compare the nature of radical Islam to cancer, you can pretend it does not exist, call it a polite name and ignore it, but it is insidious and keeps growing and destroying healthy living things.

The Gathering Storm is on the horizon...and it will be here much sooner than you expect.



.
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k4kyv
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2005, 01:15:26 PM »

Police now say the man shot to death in London was 'unconnected' to the blasts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/
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John Holotko
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2005, 05:29:31 PM »

Quote from: W1UJR
Quote from: John Holotko
I am not going to condemn all Christians because of the Crusades or for burning innocent people at the stake or for blowing up abortion clinics. I realize that the actions of a few crazed fanatics does not speak for everyone.  Any religion can become the presumed basis for evil actions. History has provent this to be true.  Consider the terrosist actions oif the IRA that have occurred over many many years. Does that mean that all Catholics are evil people and that Catholicism is the basis for IRA violence and all Catholics are potential IRA terrorists ?? Does it mean all Irish people are evil ?? Please, we can't form these over simplifications and broad sweeping generalizations.


Quote

John, I think you may have misread my earlier post.
Unlike Islam, I do not see a religion which vocally supported the IRA actions, no cheering or applause from the sidelines. As for the Crusades, the history of the Crusades is one of Western Christian reaction to Muslim advances in Europe. The Crusades were no more offensive than was the American invasion of Normandy.
[/quote

Uh, I think many historians would beg to differ...

Quote

But let's leave ancient history aside, and deal with what is going on today.
The Islamic world by and large supports the actions of the terrorists, of that you can not argue.


I don't know about that statement Bruce. I don;t see the Islamic world supporting terrorism. I do see part of the Islamic world acknolwedging that foreign policy on the part of the US, western Europe, and the Middle east might have played a role in creating the situation we see today. But I don;t see Islamic people supporting terrorism.

Quote

One thing that I want to make clear, and if you reread my earlier post you will see this point, I don't have a problem at all with the Arab people, what I have a problem with is what Islam does to them.


And I have a problem with what religion in general does to people. But that doesn;t make my word  the ultimatum that everyone lives with.  Perhaps you need to look a little bit beyond religion with regards to what drives the terrorism we see today.  If what you say is true and Islam is the sole driving force behind terrorism then we are in seriopus trouble.

Quote

Example, not all Germans, or not all Nazis for that matter, worked in concentration camps. Just as not all Muslims commit terrorists’ actions.
The problem is the ideology, not the people.


And why is that ??  Why do someMuslims engage in extremism and terrorism while others don't. Why do some Christians blow up abortion clinics and others don't. Clearly the driving force must lie outside of the religion. You have challenged your own hypothesis.


Quote

Why was Nazism not allowed to stand after the Second World War?
Because it was an evil idea that lead good people into bad actions.
I submit to you that Islam is exactly the same.
Again, I repeat an earlier point; the goals of Nazism and Islam are very, very close. I won't reiterate the points again here.


Any Idealogy is potentially deadly when used by people who are angry, bitter and committed to using violence as a means to an end.
\
Quote

Yes, we can not kill all Arabs, it would be both foolish and wrong.
But we can and must kill the concepts of Islam which lead to destructive behavior if the civilized world is to survive. It is much easier to destroy one Evil idea than to destroy millions of people.


No it is not. A religion is an ideaology. It is much harder to kill an idea than to kill a man.  If you doubt me then tell me exactly how you propose to kill the idea  of Islam ?? The Romans tried it with Christianity and failed.  You can;t lock ideas in jail nor can you kill them.


Quote

John, I know that you are a good guy and are compassionate to those of the underclass, that’s a trait of a good liberal, and I respect you for that.


Thanks, but I think it;s a trait that conservatives and liberals should share alike. Belive it or not I can be quite conservative on some issues.  case and point, very often my liberal friends condemn me for my pro-gun stance.

Quote

I myself am a realist; things are much more black and white for me. I see Islam as a far greater threat than the former Soviet Union ever was. What  has failed to be pointed out is that Islam is not so much a relgion as it is a form of goverment. The state goal of Islam is to establish Islamic one world goverment.


Even if these are the goals of Islam are they the goals of men.  Humans have an uncanny ability to separate things that can be acheived from the absurd or impossible. I think the biggest threat we face is a group of people that are using religion as a base and an excuse for cowardly crimes and violence along with a world policy that expect "business as usual;" in front of the vital neesds of the world and it's people...  \


Quote from: John Holotko

Yes, we do have a serious problem on our hands and yes, many of it's perpetrators appear to be Islamic fundimentalist or are at least using Islamic fundimentalism as part of the lame excuse for their actions.  we need to solve this problem. Simplifying matters by claiming it is all caused by some "evil" religion is not going to solve anything.


[
Quote

I compare the nature of radical Islam to cancer, you can pretend it does not exist, call it a polite name and ignore it, but it is insidious and keeps growing and destroying healthy living things.

The Gathering Storm is on the horizon...and it will be here much sooner than you expect.



But Bruce you are over simplifying the problem.  You need to look at what spawns radical islamists who perpetrate violence and why other (nonradical islamists) would want to support them. Again, I urge you, look beyond this good religion/bad religion thing.
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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2005, 09:01:13 PM »

Quote from: k4kyv
Police now say the man shot to death in London was 'unconnected' to the blasts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/


Earlier witnesses stated wires were protruding from his coat, temperature in the 70's. Got to wonder which is the mis-information, the wires or no connection to the blast.

Tonights reports also stated, Menezes, the victim spoke english well, was an electrician, and left a house that was under surveillance.

London is not the place to walk around with wire protruding from your clothing and if asked to stop and raise your hands...........

No doubt the brits aren't playing games, same amount of paper work for the police if they pull the trigger once or five times.

Hoopie,
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John Holotko
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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2005, 09:37:47 PM »

Quote from: WV Hoopie
Quote from: k4kyv
Police now say the man shot to death in London was 'unconnected' to the blasts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/


Earlier witnesses stated wires were protruding from his coat, temperature in the 70's. Got to wonder which is the mis-information, the wires or no connection to the blast.

Tonights reports also stated, Menezes, the victim spoke english well, was an electrician, and left a house that was under surveillance.

London is not the place to walk around with wire protruding from your clothing and if asked to stop and raise your hands...........

No doubt the brits aren't playing games, same amount of paper work for the police if they pull the trigger once or five times.

Hoopie,


Yeah, and the same over reactive mentality might get you, I or a family member killed. . Hey.that HT looks suspicious...BLAMMMMM!!!  Hey, what's that antenna...BLAMMMM!! What kinda wire's that in your trunk.... BLAMMM BLAMMMM  !!!  Why are  you  dressed like that on a warm day...BLAMMM !! BLAMM !! BLAMMM !!  Being wary of terrorism doesn'tmean sacraficing our lives.
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2005, 10:10:10 PM »

The thing is, the guy was shot on Friday.  The earlier reports about wires protruding from clothing was about one of the four bombers from Thursday, who probably -did- have wires protruding from their clothing, to detonate the bombs they carried.  But the bombs fizzled, probably leaving the detonator wires hanging loose as the surprised bombers found not seventy virgins, but hundreds of angry people facing them.  That was Thursday 7/21, mid-day.

On Friday morning, some fellow came out of a house that was being watched, and headed toward the train station.  Strangely, he was wearing a heavy coat on the warm day.  Plainclothes police followed him, and when he turned into the subway station, he jumped the turnstile.  The police chased him and ordered him to stop.  He did not stop; he ran.  The reports I saw said that police knocked him down and shot him multiple times in the head.

Now, what would one expect?  If indeed the guy was carrying a bomb, he could detonate it.  The orders were to shoot to kill, and shoot for the head, to minimize the probability of the bomber or the bullets detonating the bomb.  And you have to figure the police were afraid for their lives as well.  Wouldn't you be?  You're chasing some guy in a coat on a warm day, who you have been watching because of the bombings, and then he goes into the subway, jumps the turnstile, and runs... wouldn't you figure there was a good chance that he had a bomb, and that he would detonate it, and take you out with him, if he could?

So, what were the police supposed to do?  The guy was already a suspect, then he showed up in a coat, which was inapproproate unless he was carrying a bomb, then he went into a subway, and jumped the turnstile, and then he ran, instead of stopping when ordered to stop.

OK, so he turned out to be some kind of a nutcase, wearing a heavy coat when it was warm outside.  I read no reports about any wires protruding from his clothing.  Maybe he ran because he had jumped the turnstile.  Who knows.

I think that any reports about protruding wires were from the Thursday bombing.
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WV Hoopie
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« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2005, 12:22:19 AM »

Quote from: John Holotko
Quote from: WV Hoopie
Quote from: k4kyv
Police now say the man shot to death in London was 'unconnected' to the blasts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/


Earlier witnesses stated wires were protruding from his coat, temperature in the 70's. Got to wonder which is the mis-information, the wires or no connection to the blast.

Tonights reports also stated, Menezes, the victim spoke english well, was an electrician, and left a house that was under surveillance.

London is not the place to walk around with wire protruding from your clothing and if asked to stop and raise your hands...........

No doubt the brits aren't playing games, same amount of paper work for the police if they pull the trigger once or five times.

Hoopie,


Yeah, and the same over reactive mentality might get you, I or a family member killed. . Hey.that HT looks suspicious...BLAMMMMM!!!  Hey, what's that antenna...BLAMMMM!! What kinda wire's that in your trunk.... BLAMMM BLAMMMM  !!!  Why are  you  dressed like that on a warm day...BLAMMM !! BLAMM !! BLAMMM !!  Being wary of terrorism doesn'tmean sacraficing our lives.


You guilty of something John? Why so jumpy? Whata bin do'en in ur spare time?
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John Holotko
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« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2005, 12:32:42 AM »

Quote from: Bacon, WA3WDR
The thing is, the guy was shot on Friday.  The earlier reports about wires protruding from clothing was about one of the four bombers from Thursday, who probably -did- have wires protruding from their clothing, to detonate the bombs they carried.  But the bombs fizzled, probably leaving the detonator wires hanging loose as the surprised bombers found not seventy virgins, but hundreds of angry people facing them.  That was Thursday 7/21, mid-day.

On Friday morning, some fellow came out of a house that was being watched, and headed toward the train station.  Strangely, he was wearing a heavy coat on the warm day.  Plainclothes police followed him, and when he turned into the subway station, he jumped the turnstile.  The police chased him and ordered him to stop.  He did not stop; he ran.  The reports I saw said that police knocked him down and shot him multiple times in the head.

Now, what would one expect?  If indeed the guy was carrying a bomb, he could detonate it.  The orders were to shoot to kill, and shoot for the head, to minimize the probability of the bomber or the bullets detonating the bomb.  And you have to figure the police were afraid for their lives as well.  Wouldn't you be?  You're chasing some guy in a coat on a warm day, who you have been watching because of the bombings, and then he goes into the subway, jumps the turnstile, and runs... wouldn't you figure there was a good chance that he had a bomb, and that he would detonate it, and take you out with him, if he could?

So, what were the police supposed to do?  The guy was already a suspect, then he showed up in a coat, which was inapproproate unless he was carrying a bomb, then he went into a subway, and jumped the turnstile, and then he ran, instead of stopping when ordered to stop.

.


From what  I heard he was pretty much stop[ped at the point they pumped the bullets into him. Jumping a turnstile was never a crime that people got shot for. Wearing a coat on a warm day was to my knowledge never a crime.  Regardless of whether or not the police were right or wrong things are in a frenzy. The slightest  thing can get you stopped arrested  and shot. What's next, people are to be required to walk backward, naked, and with their hands in the air.  What were once relatively free societies are quiclky becoming police states  which is exactly  what the enemy was hoping for.
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
Guest
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2005, 12:40:36 AM »

Evening Gents,

 I do see that the muslims of UK have issued a Fatwa in response to the bombings and a few associated opinions but even they know or lost on how to quell this extremism showing it's ugly face.

 On the other hand i seen in Pakistan the clerics are trying to explain "Jihad" and expressing anguish on young extremists, quoted 'an angry young man is in no ones control"..

a "Jihad" is issued on the Following:

 If a Muslim community comes under attack, then jihad becomes an obligation for all muslims, male and female in that community.

 If that particular community feels it cannot fight off attackers on it's own, then jihad becomes incumbent on muslims living in nearby communities.

 If a muslim ruler of a country calls for jihad, then it is incumbent upon the muslims living under that ruler to join the jihad.

Here's the article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4711003.stm

So we're dealing with a mess here and so are they, muslims are becoming aware of the tide turning on them.
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2005, 01:46:43 AM »

Quote from: John Holotko
From what I heard he was pretty much stopped at the point they pumped the bullets into him. Jumping a turnstile was never a crime that people got shot for. Wearing a coat on a warm day was to my knowledge never a crime. Regardless of whether or not the police were right or wrong things are in a frenzy. The slightest thing can get you stopped arrested and shot. What's next, people are to be required to walk backward, naked, and with their hands in the air. What were once relatively free societies are quiclky becoming police states which is exactly what the enemy was hoping for.

He was knocked down, but he could still have activated a bomb, if he had been carrying one under that coat.  Bullets to the body could trigger the bomb, if he had one.  So they shoot for the head.

It was a whole string of things... you don't go walking on a warm day in a heavy coat, then go into a subway and jump a turnstile and then run when told to stop, when people are carrying bombs to kill and maim, and just did it en masse the day before.  It's a shame that a freak streak of bad choices got him killed, but the probability that he was another suicide bomber was getting really difficult to ignore.

Kind of reminds me of the Israeli outpost somewhere way back when, and the orders were not to shoot, but this truck was speeding toward the gate.  It was obvious to the guard what was happening, so he finally disobeyed orders and started shooting.  It was a truck bomb, all right, and it really messed that guard up.  But he stopped it.

It's a matter of probability.  Do we go to war with anybody wearing a head-dress?  No.  Do we unilaterally nuke any country where people are of a certain religion?  No.  But do we challenge a highly suspicious person going into public transit, who is wearing inappropriate clothing that could well be hiding a bomb?  Yes - in London, in July 2005.  And if that person flees into the target zone... he could get killed, because that's what it takes to stop such a bomber.  Not that the person is necessarily a bomber, but in London, in July 2005, the probability and the hazard are getting unacceptably high at that point.

Do we have reason to suspect that such a person might be such a bomber?  In London, in July 2005, yes, we do.  But is this sufficient to be probable cause to kill?  No, not if the person is not in the target area.  But yes, unfortunately, in London, in July of 2005, if that person flees into a target area when challenged.  And this guy had gotten into the crowd, and we have their descriptions of the event.

You know, if you disobey a lawful order, police may well pull their guns.  Do it wearing a heavy coat in a subway, and you could get killed.  Where this is going to get -really- hairy, is in the wintertime.
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