CALL to ARMS

[WD8BIL]

I don't understand what operating a 100 watt CW rig in the CW subband during field day has to do with operating a qrp CW station in an all mode anywhere bandplan

FACT: In that portion of 40 meters SSB during field day is quite heavy do to the foreign guys trying to work US ops in split mode !

Fact: Zero beating an SSB signal is the same as working the ZB of any other emission.

Fact: In this neck of the woods, 100 watts on FD is QRP !!!

AND... In 37 years of hamming I've NEVER been qrmed off the frequency
when using CW.

... -.-

[Art]

"but answer me this.... do you think it will be a better situation for the ham who's main interest is operating CW if we go to an all mode anywhere plan?...... "

My answer is an unqualified yes. It will be a better situation. The reason I say this is I believe the CW portion of the bands is being cultivated for takeover and reallocation to the WinLink "mode". The protectionism that the CW ops feel because their exclusive allocation, in the face of declining (as a percentage of active operators) participation, will be the end of your QRP CW. The old CW ops are literally expiring and new CW ops aren't replacing them. This leaves huges chunks of spectrum relatively underutilized (except at contest time when I get on CW too) and the phone sections crowded. Continue with the protectionism and you will be all frequency all mode in the phone section of the bands with your QRP CW. . . .
Not even the expected 'if I can't have it all, no one can' washes . . . CW will be excluded and the 'sub-band' will be occupied by neither phone nor CW as we know it.
That's my opinion after a lot of study and networking.

-ap

[K1JJ]

Hi Art,

Sounds like you've done some reading on WinLink.

Could you tell me what  real world applications you expect
it to have on 80M?  ie, what can an HF transmission of email
do that a standard cable or satellite system can't?  Why would
hams want to use it since the bandwidth is too narrow for
anything but text or slow scan?

Is it just another more modern version of 2M "packet" or am
I missing something?

T

[Art]

go here . . . http://winlink.org/ and you can read about what it does. This is the tip of the iceberg . . . then you get to voice over IP etc. Can this be better done with wireline and conventional internet systems . . . you bet . .  just like car phones were better than autopatches . . .

-ap

[K1JJ]

Tnx for the info, Art.  

Yes, I had read that page before, but thought maybe there
was something additional I had missed.

I think the passage below is the "sizzle" they are using to
sell it:

"The mobile user, whether on the high seas, jungles of a
remote region, or  traveling in an RV,  has the ability to
provide family and friends with the state of their safety
and well-being along with the joys of their travels.  Mobile
users may post their positions on a map and gain access to
a host of global text-based and graphic weather information
and other helpful material whenever or wherever they need
it.  The Winlink 2000 system is currently being utilized for  
emergency communications where local or regional  
communications are disrupted, including the the loss
of the Internet, and where accuracy of information is
paramount."


So, the next time I'm on an African Safari, I can set up an
80M Yagi and phone home on my laptop.  I wouldn't wanna
make it too EZ by dialing a cell phone.      Ho-Hum.

T

[Art]

. . .like I said, about equal to the auto patch functionality. . .except the audacity to underwrite and create a separate entitiy was not even thought of for the autopatch . . . . .. But this is 'digital' and the alpha particle of the future.
I apologize for the rancor but the more I learn and see the more annoyed I get. Time for a break to regain perspective.

-ap

[Glenn K2KL]

Bud, are you not understanding I'm talking about a situation that does not exsist yet? ALL MODES ANYWHERE?

FACT: 100watts is not QRP... no matter where you live.

FACT: If CW and SSB share the same spectrum space, and you operate QRP CW you WILL be QRM'd.

I don't understand what operating a 100 watt CW rig in the CW subband during field day has to do with operating a qrp CW station in an all mode anywhere bandplan

FACT: In that portion of 40 meters SSB during field day is quite heavy do to the foreign guys trying to work US ops in split mode !

Fact: Zero beating an SSB signal is the same as working the ZB of any other emission.

Fact: In this neck of the woods, 100 watts on FD is QRP !!!

AND... In 37 years of hamming I've NEVER been qrmed off the frequency
when using CW.

... -.-

[WD8BIL]

I understand perfectly Glenn.
You are defending a mode that deserves no more protection from qrm than any other mode !!

What's the old saying u guyz use;

Get thru with CW ??

[Glenn K2KL]

I'm not going to argue about the level of CW activity on the bands. Of course it's declining, along with SSB, packet, and everything else. The fact is, there are still, very many active CW operators. Of course, you wouldn't know that unless you actually tuned your receiver down to the CW portion of the band. Did you listen last night to the lower 50khz on 40 meters? did you listen to 30 meters? well I did, and there were many CW QSO's taking place. Have you listened to the level of CW activity during a corntest? packed with CW signals... so I guess all these CW stations I'm hearing must be the ghosts of dead hams? or maybe they're LDE's ?

I'll say it one more time.. there are still very many hams who enjoy operating CW. What's is happening is we're eliminating someone elses fun just to promote special interests in digital modes, oh, but it's for the good of ham radio. Load of crap. It's really a shame. Using the advancement of ham radio argument doesn't hold water. Let's not let a hand full of people eliminate an older but still valid mode of communications because of their selfish personal interests and political motiviation. Yes, my personal interest is CW but you will never hear me saying "eliminate these outdated modes SSB, RTTY, Packet, and AM.  You think they will go away on their own? that's just fine with me, just don't kill it before it's actually dead. This reminds me of the folks who have tried to eliminate AM over the years because it's an "old outdated mode".

One more reminder before I pull out of this thread... Ham radio is not a business... it's a hobby. Stop trying to force new technology and eliminate old technology. Do I dare say, the majority of the folks here on the AM forum enjoy old technology, in fact they prefer it!... there is no need to piss on somebody's elses parade in order to promote your preference for new technology.   ..._._

"Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny"  (Frank Zappa)

[WD8BIL]

What's is happening is we're eliminating someone elses fun just to promote special interests in digital modes, oh, but it's for the good of ham radio.

No where Glenn can you point to where I suggested the ELIMINATION of CW, QRP CW or any other mode.

Of course, you wouldn't know that unless you actually tuned your receiver down to the CW portion of the band. Did you listen last night to the lower 50khz on 40 meters? did you listen to 30 meters? well I did, and there were many CW QSO's taking place.

Where do you get off assuming I'm ignorant about CW operation ?? :evil:
YES I DO CW !! I was one of the stations you might have heard LAST NITE on 40CW !!! Worked France, Italy and Arkansas !!!!

CW deserves no more protection than any other mode !!!

All modes on all frequencies is no more a threat to CW than it is to AM !!

[Glenn K2KL]

Buddly, those comments were not directed at you... Sorry if it came across that way.. You'll notice I didn't include quotes from you in my post.
I understand you operate CW..

However.... you wrote..

All modes on all frequencies is no more a threat to CW than it is to AM !!

I think You're dead wrong. A CW operator will have to keep his SSB rig warmed-up and ready to go when he's having a CW QSO. How else is he going to tell the the guy who's calling CQ on top of his QSO that the freq is in use?? Will he send it in CW? Do you think the SSB op will pay attention? or even be able to read CW in the first place?

So, yes, All modes on all frequencies IS more of a threat to CW than it is to AM

[k4kyv]

Yes, my personal interest is CW but you will never hear me saying "eliminate these outdated modes SSB, RTTY, Packet, and AM.  You think they will go away on their own? that's just fine with me, just don't kill it before it's actually dead. This reminds me of the folks who have tried to eliminate AM over the years because it's an "old outdated mode".

That reminds me of a "hamfest", actually an ARRL convention, that I attended in downtown Boston sometime in the mid-1970's while Docket 20777 was pending.

The event took place at the Statler-Hilton hotel, with an indoor fleamarket in a room in the basement.  It was a pretty sorry excuse for a fleamarket, with only a half dozen or so vendors, but many of the area AM'ers were in attendance.

I went to several of the forums, including the ARRL forum.  The speaker was a very attractive young lady, whose name and callsign I don't remember, but definitely not the "hamsexy" type.  The subject of Docket 20777 came up, and she stated that the League's policy on AM was one of "benign neglect", and that the League was opposed to outlawing AM, but wanted to just "let it die a natural death."

Later on, I was talking to one of the FCC guys (Johnny Johnston didn't show up for that one).  He mentioned that he had read through some of the comments on Docket 20777 and went on to say, "There are even some hams who want to keep AM."

It seems that one thing Docket 20777 accomplished in a positive sense was to let the amateur radio "establishment" at ARRL, FCC and major ham radio magazines, know that there was a viable AM community within amateur radio.  At that time, a visitor from another planet could have thoroughly read all the currently published ham radio magazines and handbooks and would not have had the slightest clue that there was any such thing as amateur radio AM. After that docket proceeding, AM seemed to get a lot more recognition by these groups and they began to take us seriously.

If we hadn't got our campaign together to save AM, and hadn't responded massively to that Docket, AM would have probably been eliminated by FCC action in the late 70's.

[WD8BIL]

OH.... OK Glenn !!!  

Never mind !!!  :lol:  :lol:

[Glenn K2KL]

Buddly,

I'll be looking for you on 40cw!!      

Peace  

OH.... OK Glenn !!!  

Never mind !!!  :lol:  :lol:

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

 A CW operator will have to keep his SSB rig warmed-up and ready to go when he's having a CW QSO. How else is he going to tell the the guy who's calling CQ on top of his QSO that the freq is in use?? Will he send it in CW? Do you think the SSB op will pay attention? or even be able to read CW in the first place?

This is demonstrably false. An AM op has to do the same thing (I speak from experience). I see no difference between AM and CW in this respect.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Bud, are you not understanding I'm talking about a situation that does not exsist yet? ALL MODES ANYWHERE?

IINM, it exists on 160 meters.

[Glenn K2KL]

You can't see the difference between voice mode and non-voice mode in this situation  :?: You are proving my point Steve. If an SSB signal starts up on your AM QSO, you can very easily zero beat the SSB station and he will hear you when you tell him to move (of course he may not listen  :roll: ) Can't do that on CW.

 A CW operator will have to keep his SSB rig warmed-up and ready to go when he's having a CW QSO. How else is he going to tell the the guy who's calling CQ on top of his QSO that the freq is in use?? Will he send it in CW? Do you think the SSB op will pay attention? or even be able to read CW in the first place?

This is demonstrably false. An AM op has to do the same thing (I speak from experience). I see no difference between AM and CW in this respect.

[Glenn K2KL]

Yes, ... on 160 meters... a true example of a gentlemans agreement that actually works...... but we will see what happens if this change takes place on the other bands...   :shock:  :shock:  Only time will tell. I bet most operators think 160 has subbands like the others.....

Maybe I'm mistaken but there seem to be a lot more "gentleman" on 160 than 75  :roll:  :roll:  

Bud, are you not understanding I'm talking about a situation that does not exsist yet? ALL MODES ANYWHERE?

IINM, it exists on 160 meters.

[WD8BIL]

Can't do that on CW.

Sure you can !! We've done it many times on 3885 where someone is piss weak and gets our attention with cw.

A few years back i frequented 1858Khz with K1YN and the guyz (SSB).
We had many a qso with guyz on cw.

The limiting factor is as you mentioned.

(of course he may not listen  :roll:  )

But from a mode standpoint, there's no diff !!!

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

That's funny (SSBers listening to you on AM - NOT) No bro you missed my point entirely.

You've clearly never dealt with any of the bonehead slopbuckets on 75 meters. The ONLY way they will hear you is to blast them with a high-power SSB signal. Trying to talk to them with AM is the same as trying to talk to them with CW.  

And there is no need to zero-beat them. They zero beat you.  :evil:

You are correct about the difference between 160 and 75. I don't think it's as much about more gentlemen on 160 as it is about the band being les populated in genera,l and the propagation keeping QSOs in different geographic parts of the country from butting heads as much.

You can't see the difference between voice mode and non-voice mode in this situation  :?: You are proving my point Steve. If an SSB signal starts up on your AM QSO, you can very easily zero beat the SSB station and he will hear you when you tell him to move (of course he may not listen  :roll: ) Can't do that on CW.

 A CW operator will have to keep his SSB rig warmed-up and ready to go when he's having a CW QSO. How else is he going to tell the the guy who's calling CQ on top of his QSO that the freq is in use?? Will he send it in CW? Do you think the SSB op will pay attention? or even be able to read CW in the first place?

This is demonstrably false. An AM op has to do the same thing (I speak from experience). I see no difference between AM and CW in this respect.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Steve, I agree with your thinking about the situation on 160.

Hey, how about a middle road, then?  If a voluntary plan seem to  work reasonably well on 160, why not try it on 15 and 10, maybe even 40 meters, first, to see how it goes.

Open up those two bands for a two-year trial. If it works out, then go for it on all HF bands. If it doesn't work out after two years, then the regulation sunsets to what it was before. What's the problem with trying something and continuing with it if it works or going back if it doesn't. There's nothing guaranteed in this world.