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Author Topic: Persistent Carrier on 3882.5 - there all the time  (Read 7505 times)
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steve_qix
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« on: June 16, 2020, 11:34:44 AM »

There is a persistent carrier that I receive at both my Townsend remote control site and at the new location in New Hampshire (Town of Mirror Lake).

Also, the carrier shows up on the W1NT SDR site (Newton, NH).  The signal fades up and down - very noticeable during the day.  Sometimes rises to an S6 at Mirror Lake.

It is generally stronger at Mirror Lake than Townsend which either means it's closer to Mirror Lake, or it is a low angle signal and due to this, is stronger at Mirror Lake.

No one else I talk with on the air has so far noticed it.

Here is a screen shot of the two Flex displays - the left one is from Townsend, and the right one from Mirror Lake.  It is stronger at Mirror Lake.  This carrier is there all the time.

Anyone else notice it ?

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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2020, 11:38:08 AM »

Right now (11:40AM on 6/16/2020), it is quite noticeable on the W1NT site as well as my sites of course.

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K1JJ
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 11:59:37 AM »

Hi Steve,

I have a pretty good 75M DFing system here using the 2el delta loops at 190' with NE/SW switching directions. I also compare it against my flat dipole at 90' which is broadside NE/SW for estimating incoming vertical angles, thus distance away.


From Central CT:

At 12 noon I can hear it faintly on the dipole. But when I switch NE on the loops it jumps up 10 DB.  To the SW on the loops is drops into the noise.  

From experience with direction switching and vertical angles identification, I can say with HIGH PROBABILITY it is coming from Maine. It is definately NE of here and likely a good distance, like 200-300 miles.

I'll take a look at it later. If it comes up big later in the afternoon or at sunset, we can tell a lot more.  

The web receivers work FB - and old school DFing can confirm it.


***  Axe the TimTron to switch his array NE/SW to triangulate the signal. I bet it is louder up his way and possibly a little SW of him.

T
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 12:03:38 PM »

Steve, I don't hear it here 11 miles south of the Allentown PA area.  I heard you mention this a day or so ago and maybe it was nighttime, I didn't hear it then either.  I will check tonight (if I remember).
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« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2020, 05:26:58 PM »

I do not receive it here in Maine during mid day.   So it is southwest of here.  It also was not heard in seacoast NH today. 

p
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« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2020, 06:01:25 PM »

It's 6PM EST and I still hear it here under the same conditions I described above.  Maybe it's coming from Nova Scotia or up that way NE farther away.


I'll see what happens at sunset.  It will peak at its own local sunset, so that will tell a lot when looking at a grayline chart on the web.

It is VERY weak so if you have local QRN noise, you will probably not hear it. My noise level is about  S0 on the loops (virtually quiet) but the dipole noise is S1 and the signal is almost buried.

T
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« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2020, 06:23:25 PM »

Tom if it NS, you would likely not hear it in the daytime  (400 miles +) and it would be stronger here.  I too have a very quiet noise floor.  Its definitely SW or west of here.  My .02!
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2020, 10:48:20 PM »

10:45 p.m. Eastern time - If the carrier is there now, I'm not hearing it at all.  I do hear a weak CW station on approximately 3881.0, too weak and fast for rusty me to copy, constant CW, perhaps 5 letter code groups.

So I don't hear it day or night down here in eastern Pennsyltucky.
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2020, 03:40:34 AM »

Use the kiwisdr network to df it.

Will give you a heatmap of the probable area its TX from.

--Shane
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2020, 08:19:30 AM »

I see it fade in and out on my KiwiSDR quite regularly. I see it now in fact.

http://sigmasdr.ddns.net:8073/


- Rob
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K1JJ
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2020, 12:24:31 PM »

Last night instead of getting stronger, it faded away.  And today at noon it is very faint in central CT and shows no directivity at all on the three antennas.  This is totally opposite of what I saw yesterday.  Usually the directivity holds up from day to day unless there is a solar flare or other ionospheric event.  

So, I think the best method now is to use the heat map on a web receiver system, assuming it is strong enuff to get a reading.

To be the same on all three antennas may also mean it is Southwest of you, Pete, as you suggested -  and NNW of me.

T
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 05:22:07 AM »

it did not appear to be there in the earlier part of the morning yesterday (Wednesday).  Not observable now here in Mirror Lake, NH.

I noticed it after 9:00, which either means I didn't notice it, or it didn't come on until after 9:00AM - or I suppose propagation could have changed a lot.

Will be more observant this morning.
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 11:29:14 AM »

This morning it did not appear to after 10:00, and then on approximately 3886.  Then, it moved sometime between 11:00 and 11:30 (AM) to 3882.5

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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2020, 01:33:55 PM »

What we seem to have here is a near perfect NVIS, where the antenna is very close to the ground.  We dont know as yet exactly where it is, but we have a pretty good idea it is in central  or western MA or maybe northern CT (maybe southern VT).  It has a small footprint of perhaps 150 miles diameter.   It seems like it is an accidental transmission and I bet it is from a device outside of the ham bands.  We need more people to chime in who receive it during mid day conditions so we can get a better idea of the footprint.   Then we can go to mobile operations.  I cannot see it/hear it here.  We'll find it though!
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2020, 02:00:15 PM »

The Latest:

I heard it this morning and now at 2PM it is back to "normal" and in the noise to the SW, louder to the NE and weaker on the dipole.

It seems to drop off to nothing at night.

Based on the last few days, I would put it definately North to Northwest of me.  Maybe  NH or VT.   Possibly a non-ham signal from a piece of test equipment at an electronics company.
It is never louder than an S2 here, so I would estimate a 1 watt or less ERP source.  Could it be someone playing with a beacon for whatever reason?

T
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2020, 03:33:46 PM »

Solar-powered or workday schedule then?
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2020, 04:11:08 PM »

4:10 PM in New Jersey.. Seen below:


* Ghost Signal.JPG (148.02 KB, 1288x812 - viewed 267 times.)
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 10:53:19 AM »

Use the kiwisdr network to df it.

Will give you a heatmap of the probable area its TX from.

I tried this but the signal doesn't appear on enough receivers with enough signal strength to generate a usable map.

Is there a time of day that it seems to be strongest?
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2020, 11:59:28 AM »

Today at 11:50 AM it is almost back to normal.    It is about 7 DB stronger on the NE loops. It is gone on the SW loops and it is barely audible on the dipole at 90'.   Probably just an innocent mistake in a electronics company or even a ham with a sig gen on by error that is coupling into his antenna. There is no swishing, QRMing - following around activity.

I hear a slow fading, somewhat like 160M.  The fading is about 60 seconds from peak to peak.

Can someone come up with an EXACT frequency, down to a few Hertz?  Does it change at all from day to day?  This can tell if it is digital gear or older tube stuff.

It seems to favor low angle at this time of day. I notice TimTron from Maine has similar low angle propagation at mid-day, but later on in the evening he favors the dipole because angles become higher for our optimum path.

If someone took a car trip of a few hundred miles using a mobile DFing rig, they could probably find it. But we do need more reports from VT-NH first.  I believe if it was from upper state NY, it would be loudest on my SW loops and dead-even on the dipole, but it's not.

BTW, the daytime is best for low angle detection like this when signals are stable. Even a portable receiver with a loopstick null feature could help immensely.  Use it out in an empty field without obstructions. But this signal is very weak and probably difficult to hear on a portable.


*** Update:  At 12:20 this afternoon, it is up to S3, the loudest I've heard it.  Also it is very much louder NNE.    

T
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2020, 12:35:21 PM »

If the TDoA algorithm produced three of these in a row, instead of one, we'd have a start...


* 3882.5.jpg (215.27 KB, 727x335 - viewed 296 times.)
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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2020, 12:57:29 PM »

I wonder if just making a loop with a few turns of wire a foot or so in diameter and plugging it into the external antenna jack of a portable SW receiver would do a null bearing? (I know, no electrostatic shielding, but easy to implement) Would need to have a decent signal strength.  Two cross bearings to start with would be better than driving all over as I think the strength from a mobile may be misleading until one is very close to the source.

Tom 'JJ - you got a low dipole even if 40 meters running east-west to listen on?
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K1JJ
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2020, 01:44:11 PM »

If the TDoA algorithm produced three of these in a row, instead of one, we'd have a start...


You're showing about 20 miles from the NH/VT border and 10 miles from RT91.  North of me.   Makes sense to me.  

I'll bet if someone drove up RT-91 in that area, they would see the signal start swinging in strength as they passed by due to ground and ionospheric phasing.

Tom, I tried my low 40M dipole and it's too weak to hear. I would have to normalize it for a 50 ohm match on 75M to be of value.

T
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There's nothing like an old dog.
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2020, 12:26:53 PM »

KLR,

The loops will only give nulls on low angle or ground wave signals. Loops are pretty much omni for high angle signals.
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2020, 03:48:12 PM »

Unfortunately it looks like the guys who can hear the signal, it will be high angle, unless they get close.
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