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Author Topic: FCC Ruling on SDR  (Read 19051 times)
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« on: March 11, 2005, 10:37:01 PM »

With all the talk of software defined radios (SDR) here lately, I found this interesting. I'm sure it has no effect on amateur radio applications though.

FCC Protects Spectrum From Software Radio
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2005, 01:02:00 AM »

This ruling would apply to type-accepted radios manufactured for commercial use.

I'd say it would be simpler for a knowledgeable person to hack software than to "clip the diodes" in a hardware defined radio.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

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This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2005, 04:30:44 AM »

Morning,

 Mmm, don't know if Someone isn't covering their preverbial Butts. While a these years of interest in the Jupiter i've found the simple changing of three numerators in two registers in the core programming winds out the xmit bandwidth to 8kcs which matches the recieve bandwidth right on the face of the rig, subsequent Unlocking of the MFG's Presets.

 My interest was to find a way to activate The DSP Registers while in AM Mode and I stumbled across this, Ten-Tec doesn't like to have the DSP functioning in their version of AM detection.

 I have found a way to add a few circuit changes to bring the DSP in, But this wasn't what i was after. My Programming Touch just isn't quite up to snuff, but i'm working on it, I try little changes here and there and reload the Flash program and monitor the results.

 Problem is I haven't found the key to gain access to the Stamped Frames going into the Chip Core on activation, there is a way in there with my discussions with the Techs But They won't release the access coding, So i have to keep diging my way in.

 I always felt it's my Rig I should have a Complete Knowledge and control as an Amateur of all internal functions, but as long as my Xmissions are within Specs there is no conflict of interest, Falls on Deaf Ears...

Oh Well..
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W8ER
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2005, 05:06:29 AM »

Quote from: Jack-KA3ZLR-
Morning,

 Mmm, don't know if Someone isn't covering their preverbial Butts. While a these years of interest in the Jupiter i've found the simple changing of three numerators in two registers in the core programming winds out the xmit bandwidth to 8kcs which matches the recieve bandwidth right on the face of the rig, subsequent Unlocking of the MFG's Presets.



Whelp !!   HiJack  ...  Is that you in there?

Do you have a Jupiter? You've opened the AM transmit capability on it? You able to keep RF out of the audio going in?

We have to sit down over some pea soup .. really!


--Larry W8ER
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2005, 05:14:46 AM »

Morning larry,

 Yup it's simple, But I'm after the Recieve Functions it's always been my Big Thing recievers and TenTec has Locked the Sub-Programming out for editing, so any changes I Make outside the Stamped frame sets it crashes. I have learned how to recover, and reinstall from a simple Script i wrote here on the machine ..BUT.. It's a Pain..

 They should let those that have understanding of coding access to their Programming, besides they have all but forgot the Jupiter Now that the Over Priced Orion has hit..I think the last Update to the machine has a date of 2003.. so it's not Fair...

 On the RF problem, it's simple The board has a Floating ground system on the Audio Output so the fix is simple Isolation...Um, i use 600/600 audio trannys  and the fix is in.. Cheesy
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W8ER
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2005, 05:39:45 AM »

Have you thought much about the little 320D? It's probably the hottest little receiver that TT makes. There was a guy on Ebay that picked up 30 or 40 of them and was hawking them for $200 each ... brand new. I missed it.

As you probably know, I became quite a TT person myself. I picked up a Jupiter and liked the rig but even with N4PY's software it doesn't quite measure up. There are little things .. like using the memories .. not quite the smooth Kenwood ways. The remote pod is the neatest thing since sliced apples!

I tried using it on AM and gave up.  AM transmit was decent but lacked that sparkle. Theres a guy out in Oklahoma that has his sounding pretty good but he has stood on his head doing it. I've never known anybody to get into the microcode on it. There was a thread on the TT reflector recently discussing that they open source the microcode for the Jupiter and they shot that down real quick. I can't imagine what a sharp microcoder could make that radio do if the had open access to it. Remember Jack WB8BFS and how he got into the code on the Kenwood TS940? That was when radios were still hardware too!

My my my, you never know.

--Larry
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2005, 05:58:30 AM »

See that's the Thing Larry, the stamped Frame set (Micro-Code) whatever has an Access code, and it's in DAM memory Direct access memory, it can be Changed...it's addressable...but see the thing is you have to run a shell program that ten-tec has to access it...on start up...and they won't give me that..if they Did that machine would have the advantages that the rest have...

They know it and I know it, i've been working with this rig since it's inception..but what they don't tell people is what this thread is all about..this rig would be Wide open, and they don't want that...it's there..I know it...the possibilities are there, look at the heirarchy of the chip set, and read up on the design package... Cheesy

Oh, About the 320 Yes quite the little fellow, I like it.. Cheesy I had one and played with it for awhile and sold it on Ebay..Um, I have all the asseccories for the Jupiter, and I like everything about it Price comparable to others, BUT without that Shell initializer, My hands are tied...Programming wise...Bummer...
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W8ER
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2005, 06:28:43 AM »

Jack,

Over on chat .. if you get this .. I'm going to make a pot and will be over there in a few .... 6:28 AM

--Larry
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K8SWL
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2005, 08:31:29 AM »

Hi all
  Been looking at the Jupiter as I've sold off all of my multimode transceivers. My primary concern was AM. I'm not looking for Broadcast transmitter audio on it, but want respectable audio thats usable.
  Larry as I mentioned before, I've had an RX-320 for about 6 years. I bought one of the RX-321's the guy had on ebay. I feel it's superior to the RX-320. The front end seems much better on crowded bands. I'm using the Griffen Powermate tuning knob with it. It has all the functions of the Tentec pod at far less cost. Tunes line a millen dial.
 Perhaps someone needs to prod Jack WB8BFS to try a Jupiter. He reinvented the TS-940 and I'm sure he could do it to the Jupiter. Did you ever see pictures of his 3-1000 processor controlled amplifier. It's a work of art.
R/
Mike K8SWL
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2005, 09:52:11 AM »

Shortly after the Jupiter came out, I talked to someone who had near broadcast quality audio on his.  He said he was using some aftermarket software to run it on AM.  The stock TT always seemed to me to have a muddy sound on AM, even though I believe it does transmit real double sideband.

Wish someone who knows enough about computers and software would reverse-engineer it to figure out some of the source code, and then publish it on the web.

Haven't people successfully done what with Micro$haft products?
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
W8ER
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2005, 09:54:16 AM »

Hi Mike,

Quote
Perhaps someone needs to prod Jack WB8BFS to try a Jupiter. He reinvented the TS-940 and I'm sure he could do it to the Jupiter.


I wrote Beefus an email a couple of months ago regarding the subject and never got a reply. I thought that since he seemed to have not only some interest in TenTec equipment and a real talent with microcode, that he might be spurred into putting the two together. I guess I was wrong.

I'm glad to hear that you like the RX331 Mike. I sat here and came so close so many times but just didn't do it. I noticed that he got a few more and had them at $220, which was still an excellent price but I decided no.

I am a little perturbed by the way they handle their customers of late and with other products on the horizon such as the Flex-Radio SDR-1000, I am considering that maybe TT is NOT .. NOT .. the way to go. I am particularily unimpressed by the fact that since the Orion has hit the street, they have ignored development of their other products, like the Jupiter.

The Jupiter has a lot of possibilities but the growth is stunted by their focus on the Orion and their steadfast decision to sit on the Jupiter microcode. There was a very interesting thread on the TT Reflector where it was suggested that TT be a little avante guard and release the code to public domain .. similar to the way Linux is handled. Of course, by doing that they would totally intensify the interest in the Jupiter maybe even to the detriment of the Orion! They quickly quashed any hopes by letting it known that releasing the code to public domain was never going to happen.

Since it could use some help and they aren't going to do it and they won't release it .. the radio is dead! There will be those affectionados that will run them till the knobs fall off but they are not the people who will cause the interest in the radio to bubble to the surface and spike sales! Of course, what do you expect from a company located on "Dolly Parton Parkway"?

I'm watching the Flex SDR1000. Dave W9AD is extremely positive on his and the people at Flex are working with him hand in hand. The unit is working great on AM and even on slop-buckette.

--Larry W8ER
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Bacon, WA3WDR
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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2005, 10:58:13 AM »

I see a possibility here.  How many Jupiters are out there?  If TT makes them stagnate, the resale price of these units should drop as other stuff hits the market.  Then when someone works out the programming model, bingo.

I am guessing that TT does not want to give anything away, since it is likely that they use similar tricks in the higher priced stuff.  But of course maybe it's just that the software has some value.  Maybe TT wants to hold on, in case somebody wants to buy the product line or something.  Who knows.  Maybe it's the wording of their agreement with whoever wrote the software for them.  Maybe it's some paranoid bean counter.  Maybe it's someone who opposed the Jupiter in the first place, and always tries to sabotage it, because then TT would market HIS pet project.  Maybe it's just someone with a big sign on his desk that says "NO."
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Truth can be stranger than fiction.  But fiction can be pretty strange, too!
K8SWL
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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2005, 11:07:57 AM »

TenTec releasing the code for the Jupiter would probably make it a fantastic piece of equipment. The RX-320 is the perfect example. TenTec software was basic and fair at best. The software in the aftermarket made it a fantastic receiver.

It's all about economics. Releasing the code on the Jupiter would end up making it a far better radio than it is. That would dig into Orion sales. I for one would never spring for an Orion. I've yet to be able to justify that kind of money for Ham radio. Guess I'm cheap. Lets hope for a disgruntled employee leaking the code to the web or some similar corrupt thing. Then I'll buy a Jupiter.

Mike K8SWL
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2005, 11:34:01 AM »

Quote from: Jack-KA3ZLR-


 I always felt it's my Rig I should have a Complete Knowledge and control as an Amateur of all internal functions, but as long as my Xmissions are within Specs there is no conflict of interest, Falls on Deaf Ears...

Oh Well..



I agree! But you aren't likely to get that using a commercial product. The situation is much like open versus closed development models in the main line software world. For an open source project directly related to radio, check out the GNU Radio project.

GNU Radio - The GNU Software Radio

GnuRadioWiki - documentation, good info starting point

Radio Free Software - press article on GNU Radio

I remember when this project got started a few years ago. It looked quite interesting. I haven't checked on it lately, but they're up to version 2 of the software. It also looks like they are planning or working on interfacing with the SDR-1000 hardware. So, if you don't get what you want from Flex, maybe GNU Radio will do. Very interesting.

Anyway, commercial radio producers have long had things in their radios that were undocumented or very hard for the hands-on guy to work with, even in the days of all hardware and no software. Will it ever change?
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W8ER
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2005, 12:07:50 PM »

No it probably won't Steve.

There's probably a little truth in each of our perspectives. If Jupiter sales were to take off right now, it would probably impact the Orion development. After all they only have 100 employees and most I don't believe are in amateur products alone. There may be a bit of pride involved (as well as $$$) in having a product like the Orion and so I can see concern in that area.

I also see that the comment regarding the thought that they have value $$$ in the microcode development and why just give it away. Maybe even there are some microde tricks that are present that they don't want to reveal. All in all it's theirs to do with as they please.

The radio however is not theirs and it would be really fitting if some very good microcode guy (like WB8BFS) would jump on it and do his magic. Unfortunately it's probably not a job that someone with those talents would find profitable!

We always get to that, don't we $$$. The developer of the AM Max is likewise disenchanted with the amateur market, saying that everytime he has done something for the hams, he loses. That is probably true because the $$$ aren't there.  I remember him offering to make a version to drive the class E transmitters that everyone is playing with these days. The first comments were that with this chipset or that one you could homebrew it cheaper, leaving no incentive for him.

Oh well ...

--Larry
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2005, 01:20:49 PM »

Afternoon Gentlemen,

 I have just read the QST Review...--(it seems some people shouldn't Play with things they have no Savvy with, No Dummy Load INDEED)--...I will refrain from any other comments... Cheesy , Um, i would suggest anyone wishing to experience Software Defined Radio, to Pay special Attention to the Specifics in the Article, Processor Speed, Sound card ETC. And Be ready to Experience RF Travel at their Station, Remembering this is a Chip Based system connected to a computer, Now with that out of the Way,... I'M IMPRESSED with it, Because of the Direct Addressing, of all internal functions, this is not a Shelled System.

 I would If it was me Gather all that can be had as far as the hardware Components that can be had, I'm already working with two SDR rigs at present, Not of this Calibar, But using Shelled routines with software enhancement, the Jupiter and the Yeasu FT-897D.

 Be prepared for Delayed Actions, remember we're Line in and Line Out now, visivee two processors at work hi hi, price is Comparable, I like the power, But i'm a power user computer wise so That in itself should be a key Note, More processing Speed better Feed....

 Everyone here on the board is quite qualified to operate this rig, there's no Big secrets here,,,and i'm thinking out loud somewhat while reading this article, Don't these people have access to power supplies that have some Horsepower to them, 25 amp Come on give me a break...

 I dunno if you like computing as I do and Like Steven says are a hands on OM then this unit is for you it Has Quality IMHO of course...

73
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2005, 02:02:30 PM »

Quote from: W8ER


The radio however is not theirs and it would be really fitting if some very good microcode guy (like WB8BFS) would jump on it and do his magic. Unfortunately it's probably not a job that someone with those talents would find profitable!

--Larry


Yes, hams are notoriously characterized as cheap, although sometimes that label is unfair.

Many of the people involved with open software projects (to include GNU Radio) aren't looking to make any money. Neither are most hams who freely share their efforts on the Web and in various publications. So, I don't see the lack of $$ as a total stone wall for someone to reverse engineer and mod the Jupiter code, or any other radio for that matter. Actually making money off of it may cause Ten Tec to try to stop it.

Anyway, we won't know all the particulars until it actually happens.
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2005, 04:05:31 PM »

Quote from: Steve - WB3HUZ
Quote from: Jack-KA3ZLR-


 I always felt it's my Rig I should have a Complete Knowledge and control as an Amateur of all internal functions, but as long as my Xmissions are within Specs there is no conflict of interest, Falls on Deaf Ears...

Oh Well..



I agree! But you aren't likely to get that using a commercial product. The situation is much like open versus closed development models in the main line software world. For an open source project directly related to radio, check out the GNU Radio project.

GNU Radio - The GNU Software Radio

GnuRadioWiki - documentation, good info starting point

Radio Free Software - press article on GNU Radio

I remember when this project got started a few years ago. It looked quite interesting. I haven't checked on it lately, but they're up to version 2 of the software. It also looks like they are planning or working on interfacing with the SDR-1000 hardware. So, if you don't get what you want from Flex, maybe GNU Radio will do. Very interesting.

Anyway, commercial radio producers have long had things in their radios that were undocumented or very hard for the hands-on guy to work with, even in the days of all hardware and no software. Will it ever change?



Hi Steve,

 Thanks for the links, Very Handy, I'm thinking on this rig, if anything to gain more knowledge on Software Enhanced/Based systems. I'm hooked on Computing spend a great deal of time trying different things, and reading, but your right on the commercial Problems, These guys put their Stamp on their stuff so you will Have to return to them Somewhat, This system here offers a little more leeway in some respects, of course the circuitry aspects, i wonder how much in House numbering is done.

 I like the idea the operator isn't limited to Firmware upgrade.
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Art
Guest
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2005, 06:32:11 PM »

Yep, firmware updates are a whole different mind set. . . . picture a front end and a PA and the rest done in software. . . lots different than telling the radio dsp section to be wider ala TS-2000 or (i think) jupiter. . .

I have the "full monte" coming with ATU #1 to the field. . .  the bleeding edge. . . larry got his running already and it sounds wanerful. . . . 'looking forward to next week when mine is due to show up . . . 'will catch ya on the air and you can judge for yourself . . .



-ap
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2005, 08:05:27 PM »

Hi Arty,

 Ya know the Sound card is going to play a big role with this little gem, But that can be a good thing, there's some Awesum cards availible, it's going to be a little rough on the laptop users though.

 I'm hoping the best for ya here..good luck OM.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2005, 08:07:53 PM »

Art,
I monitor the SDR site every couple days. There are interesting things happening all the time. I still think a tunable preselector would be cool
for the SDR. Say like the Cubic 1U prepost unit with 10% BW. I guess
Harris and rockwell Collins have these also.  
The older DSP RXs don't have the A/D performance of the newer hardware.
I would think the 320 would fall into that bucket. I don't know how the hardware compares to the 340.
still all of this stuff is very cool.
A broken 95S1 on ebay this week if you need a real project!
AA/FD of SDR
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K8SWL
Guest
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2005, 09:17:32 PM »

Quote from: WA1GFZ
.  
The older DSP RXs don't have the A/D performance of the newer hardware.
I would think the 320 would fall into that bucket. I don't know how the hardware compares to the 340.
still all of this stuff is very cool.

AA/FD of SDR



  Your right Frank. The RX-320 came out in 1998. It's a dinasour the way technology advances today. I don't think it's anywhere near a 340. TenTec's RX-331 is supposed to be quite hot, but also in an entirely different price class.
  The next few years should proove interesting. Buy a board in a box. Every couple years buy new software and have a new radio. Even better, share some info with others and upgrade it every few days/weeks. The ability to tailor it to your needs via software vice modifying hardware is going to be something difficult for some to accept. Gonna be fun.
R/\
Mike K8SWL
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Jack-KA3ZLR-
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2005, 09:55:46 PM »

As well some of the Audio Periphals have DSP generation I am in the process of Adapting in the Beheringer DSP 1124P i've aquired and working it in the system computer here, Awesum technology...
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W8ER
Guest
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2005, 09:02:24 AM »

Mike,

The little RX320 has really caught on. While we talk about what can happen when a product is popular and talented people get industrious I thought I might bring you a good example. When we speak about something as neat as a Jupiter, one can only imagine. This is not microcode but is a perfect example of what can be done!




For those not familiar with the RX320, it is a little black box receiver that is driven by a computer. It has no controls or front panel. This picture is a device that is a display and computer to control the RX320, without needing a computer. It makes it more of a standard receiver, with all of the features. Cute! And note the infrared remote controller! Outstanding work!

--Larry W8ER
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K8SWL
Guest
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2005, 09:27:07 AM »

Larry
   I've seen that controller in action. Works real well. He also has an interface that switches between the controller or PC control. Some real nice Italian technology.
http://www.cqdx.it/woodbox/wbr-home.html
   For those with vintage Drake and Collins gear, he also makes a nice controller for them.

  Thats the thing I like about the receiver. Spend a couple hundred on a black box, then customize it to your needs. The software keeps getting better and better. SWLLog has provisions for controlling the receiver over the web as well as controlling the radio. VA3TY has an RX-321 on the web that works real nice.
http://65.49.16.85:81/RCSweb/
  I think projects such as this are just the beginning of things to come.

Mike K8SWL
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