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Author Topic: trying to find spec on old HV cap made in England  (Read 3581 times)
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Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« on: March 04, 2014, 01:22:00 AM »

I have a capacitor with these markings I'd like to identify the spec on:

W H made in England
TCC
REG DESIGN 845858

It is a hollow ceramic tubular one, 500pF +/-10%. Looks like high voltage, RF cap. Voltage unknown..

The only W H I find in England is a W H Grindley ceramic company that makes dishes, usually found on ebay as antiques. Maybe they made these tubular ceramic HV caps too? for the military? (why not.)

It looks somewhat like the picture. The side terminal seems to be on the outside. The terminal at the end apparently connects to an inside plate(s).

Wondering if anyone has seen these kinds and knows if they are good for high voltage and RF, such as a plate blocking capacitor for a 4-1000. been told not to use just 'one' 500pF TV doorknob (as in previous post of CRL 500pF cap)

Thanks for any help!


* Tubular Capacitor.jpg (20.21 KB, 175x125 - viewed 291 times.)
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Radio Candelstein - Flagship Station of the NRK Radio Network.
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2014, 01:52:53 AM »

Unless the cap you pictured is huge, I don't think that tubular ceramic cap is good for HV or high current RF.

Fred
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 02:28:00 AM »

That looks a lot like the Russian ones on eBay.

They are good sized, rated for many kV at RF.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Doorknob-Capacitor-8-kV-1000-pF-30-KVAR-QTY-2-/250386650236?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a4c35147c  as an example.

I have bought hundreds of Russian caps of all kinds, not one failure.  Heaps better than any Chinese crap, and a good deal for the $$.

This particular seller hmlhml is a good guy to deal with BTW.

73DG
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Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2014, 09:25:30 AM »

Yes they are large. The length is about 3" and the tube diameter is about 1". The wall is about 1/8" thick.

How are these made? Surely it is more than just a coating on the inside and on the outside?

anyway, it could be 6KV, or 20KV. So there lies the trouble.

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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 01:15:10 PM »

Yes, the HV rating is the unknown.

If it's a 4X1 plate modulated rig running normal HV, you will need at LEAST a 10KV coupling cap.  The problem is if it fails, there will be HV on the antenna line, especially if the safety choke fails, despite the fuses.  This is a big deal.


My gut feeling is from the size and spacing of that cap, it will be OK as a plate coupling cap.  As an choke bypass, it will do better being there is minimum RF voltage there.

Years ago, I built up a 20KV  DC hi-pot tester. It used a 15KV neon sign transformer with a Variac, a big string of  1 meg resistors and a big string of diodes in 1/2 wave rectification. It was in series with a 100 ua current meter.  It was a great device to test stuff with. I used it on my first 4X1 PDM tube rig to make sure all the floating power supplies and parts cud take the 12 KV HV, etc.

Maybe there are some cheap hi-pot testers on eBay too. I've seen some vintage ones.  For the kind of HV building you do there, it wud be a good acquisition...

T

*UPDATE:  Gads, ebay is loaded with hipot testers:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1311.R1.TR4.TRC1.A0.H0.Xhi+pot&_nkw=hipot+tester&_sacat=0&_from=R40
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2014, 02:08:11 AM »

Can I check ceramic capacitors with a hi-pot tester? I thought it would puncture and ruin them.

I have a 20KV 5mA supply and several super high value, 40KV rated resistors from TV set high voltage probes. I should be able to make a tester. Might be faster to buy one, but I have time. And some HV wire for the test leads.

hmm. about those fuses.. in any case it's a serious fail if a cap in the coupling position shorts.
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2014, 07:50:14 AM »

Can I check ceramic capacitors with a hi-pot tester? I thought it would puncture and ruin them.

I have a 20KV 5mA supply and several super high value, 40KV rated resistors from TV set high voltage probes. I should be able to make a tester. Might be faster to buy one, but I have time. And some HV wire for the test leads.

hmm. about those fuses.. in any case it's a serious fail if a cap in the coupling position shorts.

  Pat,  

   If the cap can take 10 KV hi-pot without failure (maybe 15 minute soak), and a few amps RF current without getting hot, then it should work. Hi-pot testing a cap like that till it leaks makes a failed part. If you have several of them, maybe sacrifice one and see where it punches through. Then that failed part makes its final rebuttal as it hits the trash can bottom and makes that familiar audible 'thunk'.

  Since you have time, consider an RF current test. Several options exist. One almost insane idea is to use a bucket of salt water to make a ~ 500 ohm resistor. Then put an RF ammeter in series with the cap, and put the cap across the salt water resistor. Use your antenna tuner to match to the load, bringing up the RF power until the cap as the desired RF current through it. Vary the power, the resistance, and the tuner to let that cap take current. See if it gets hot. This arrangement would be similar to an auto-match used with commercial plasma etch machines. Those run at 13.56 Mhz.

  If it takes the current, and can take a non destructive 10 KV Hi-pot, then it should be good for the Colonel Tucker plate B+ bypass cap. You still need a hefty RF choke across the antenna port to contain the DC surge if that cap were to short out. One of those tiny 2.5 mh pi RF chokes would blow immediately. I'd make something with 20 awg or larger cross section wire.

  I once was tasked to use a 2 amp pico fuse on a circuit board to fuse a 360vdc buss that had lots of energy storage across it. These fuses are about the size of a 1/4 watt resistor. I had to test this with about 2200 mfd charged to 360 vdc, and with a knife switch dump the caps into the pico fuse. The fuse would blow apart instantly. Had to vary the PCB layout such that the fuse was mounted upright at about a 30 degree angle with one short lead, and one longer lead to the PCB about 1/2" away. The idea was to position the wires such that when it blows, the long wire had to fly back the other way, and not allow the current flow to restart again. In the case of this output RF choke on the Colonel Tucker, consider a knife switch test from your power supply at 3KV to see if the antenna shunting choke can handle the surge.

 Now I feel like blowing something up... Tongue

Jim
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2014, 04:28:54 AM »

closing that switch..
32uF@3KV.
144J.
8 Ohms DCR.
RC=0.00025 seconds.
560 peak KW.
375 peak A

but the HV fuse would act.

OK so I have to sacrifice one, if it is not up to the task.
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