Proposed Changes in Licensing Rules includes Decreasing # of VEs from 3 to 2

[k4kyv]

From the ARRL web site dated 10/4/12: "On October 2, the FCC released a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) in WT Docket No. 12-121 that seeks to change the Amateur Radio licensing rules..."

For more of the details, go here: http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-seeks-to-change-amateur-radio-licensing-rules-allow-additional-emission-types

Do you think this is a good idea?

Administration of Amateur Radio License Exams

Currently, there must be three VEs at an exam session and they must observe the examinee(s) throughout the entire examination. The VEs are responsible for the proper conduct and necessary supervision of each examination. The VEs must grade the examinee’s answers immediately upon completion of each examination. When the administering VEs determine that the examinee has passed the examination elements required for the operator license sought, they must certify that the examinee is qualified for the license grant and that they complied with the administering VE requirements.

“Questions regarding whether three VEs are necessary to administer an examination sometimes come before the Commission in the context of claims that three VEs are not available at a particular location or time that an examinee would like to take an examination, or that an examinee must travel a great distance to a location where three VEs are available,” the FCC stated in the NPRM. “This requirement can also cause VEs to incur travel expenses that amateur examinees may have to reimburse. We note that unavailability of examination opportunities compromises one of the bases and purposes of the Amateur Service rules: To expand the existing number of trained operators, technicians and electronics experts.”

Upon establishing the VE system in 1983, the FCC noted that “[t]he use of three examiners provides for cross-checking to assure the correctness of answers to examination questions, to assure proper completion of license applications, and to minimize the likelihood of any possible fraud or abuse.” Since the VE system was established, the FCC pointed out that procedures have been developed by the VEs and VECs “that have almost eliminated examination grading and application completion errors and that fraud or abuse has been minimal. The VECs have VE manuals that provide specific procedures to be followed in preparing for, conducting, and reporting the results of an examination session. It is by hewing to these procedures that fraud and errors are avoided. We tentatively conclude that the required number of administering VEs can now be reduced without jeopardizing the integrity of the amateur operator license examination system.”

In order to increase the availability of examination opportunities, the FCC is proposing to reduce the number of VEs required to administer an examination to two: “We believe that reducing the number of required VEs can increase the availability of examination opportunities (by enabling VEs to offer more frequent examination sessions, or examination sessions at more locations, or both), while not compromising the reasons the Commission decided that more than one VE is necessary. This in turn would reduce the difficulty and expense that some examinees and VEs experience in traveling to an amateur radio license examination session.”

[K5UJ]

Lot easier and cheaper to buy off two guys instead of three.  All that error checking and other safe guards is a real PITA for all the license dispensaries and lack of new tickets depresses vendor sales of little pieces of plastic holding rubber ducks.

[W5COA]

Well, let's see, from my experience:

- My first exam was given by a local ham back in 1960 because I was more than 75 miles from an FCC office. He made me send and receive 13 wpm and graded the exam without any interference from me. I passed and got a Conditional-General license.

- My other licenses, Extra and First Class Radiotelephone were given at the FCC office, and I was required to pass all elements, including 20wpm, by myself.

- I gave one exam to a Novice applicant, and he passed.

All this was done prior to the VE program, so I cannot comment on the current procedures. It does seem to me, that if the VE's know each other, are likely members of the same club, etc, it would not matter if one or three witnessed the exam. At least having a second person to double-check for mistakes seems like a good idea.

I don't know how many people it takes to ensure integrity.

Jim

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Yes

[W4NEQ]

At our Bowling Green (KY) Hamfest a week ago, we had 7 VEs and two test-ees.  VE's don't seem to be in short supply.

 I think maintaining the requirement for 3 is a good idea.  With just two, we would see a higher level of fraud.  With the current dumbed-down and lower commitment requirements, the last thing we need is an easier-yet gateway permitting more know-nothings into our hobby..

Chris

[Pete, WA2CWA]

At our Bowling Green (KY) Hamfest a week ago, we had 7 VEs and two test-ees.  VE's don't seem to be in short supply.

 I think maintaining the requirement for 3 is a good idea.  With just two, we would see a higher level of fraud.  With the current dumbed-down and lower commitment requirements, the last thing we need is an easier-yet gateway permitting more know-nothings into our hobby..

Chris

You said: "With just two, we would see a higher level of fraud."
Why?? Are VE's fraud perpetrators?? Which three do you pick?

You said: "permitting more know-nothings into our hobby"
"know-nothings can memorize questions and answers and pass the test even if there were 10 VE's present

[W4NEQ]

Fraud = more know-nothings.

Harder to "work a deal" with three than two.   

During my licensed 39 years,  I have seen evidence of at least a half-dozen hams who obtained their ticket by fraudulent means.

Let us not invite it.

Chris

[Opcom]

Evidence or suspicion? Evidence is facts or items, means to me there is enough suspicion of wrongdoing to name people to the authorities.

I've only heard of one modern one, years ago. But in the past when travel was difficult there were more accounts of it, from the FCC by way of instructing someone to appear and re-test.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Can you get three VE's at the same place and time in some remote corner of Alaska or Montana?

Two are fine as a requirement; 3, 4, 5, 10, etc. more VE's present to lend support are fine too; they can pass the test results around and giggle at any wrong answers.

And, we're not inviting it; the FCC is proposing it. If one has issues with the proposal, they should file comments, when appropriate, with the FCC (see page 12 of the released NPRM).

Actually, this is probably a nowhere going thread other then for more "off-the-cuff" type comments. The VE issue of potential fraud, corruption, bad boy club members, constipation, WMD's, back room black-robed gangsters, insurance mafia, black heel marks, etc. should be addressed directly to the FCC in the filing comments. Back and forth ratter-tatter here does nothing and changes nothing.

[K5UJ]

"know-nothings can memorize questions and answers and pass the test even if there were 10 VE's present

Pete, Pete, get with it man...we're not talking about the pretense of memorizing here; that's so 1990s...we're talking cash and carry baby--pay a couple guys, out come the rubber stamps...Hello Bubba on 75 LSB

[Opcom]

If one has issues with the proposal, they should file comments, when appropriate, with the FCC (see page 12 of the released NPRM).

Same for if one likes the FCC's idea. They ought to tell the FCC so, and say why.

[W1ATR]

"know-nothings can memorize questions and answers and pass the test even if there were 10 VE's present

Pete, Pete, get with it man...we're not talking about the pretense of memorizing here; that's so 1990s...we're talking cash and carry baby--pay a couple guys, out come the rubber stamps...Hello Bubba on 75 LSB

Ain't gonna happen. I remember a few years ago when the cw requirement was dropped. The entire "sky is falling" community came out kicking and screaming about how the the bands were going to get loaded up with chicken band echos and roger beeps. Didn't happen, did it?

i say drop the "in person" testing all together and make it an online affair. 1 ticket, 10 questions, 10 bucks, and done. Amateur radio desperately needs some new blood on the air. How many times can someone listen to the same conversation about which flavor of hemorrhoid cream works the best and where to get it in commercial sized tubes. Give us some new operators and we'll train 'em on the air. 

[AL7FS]

"Can you get three VE's at the same place and time in some remote corner of Alaska or Montana?"

We have been testing (with FCC approval) via Skype.  We enlist an official such as a police officer or school principal (just examples) to proctor the exam on the far end.  Then we have three VEs witness the exam via skype.  All examinees must be in view of the camera.  Then the VEs witness the tests being sealed into the return envelope.  It is returned to Anchorage for grading and such.  If the seal is broken, all exams in the envelope become invalid.  We have tested people very remote from Anchorage, off the road system.

I personally think three examiners is a wise move.  It is the safe move.  It seems prudent.

Nothing in ham radio has changed since the rule was established that would justify the weakening of the rule.  If anything, the need for three is stronger now than several decades ago.

This is my personal opinion only.

73, Jim, AL7FS

[W2PFY]

i say drop the "in person" testing all together and make it an online affair. 1 ticket, 10 questions, 10 bucks, and done.

I like your idea.

5 bucks five questions= Tech ticket
10 bucks 10 questions= General
15 bucks 15 questions=Extra

PayPal only! 

I can say with my ear close to the ground that I never heard of any  cheating here in NYS or in N.E. I do remember the FCC going out and degrading some licenses at a very popular online license renewal site in the SW.

[Sam KS2AM]

Funny business in the exam process isn't unheard of. Here's a ARRL page that discusses three separate incidents several years ago. http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter?issue=2000-02-11#w5yi

I've never seen any evidence of cheating at the exam sessions I've been to... the sessions I was at seemed to be very well run.  On the other hand I'll occasionally hear someone on the air and after a few minutes I'll think,  how the he** could this person have passed any of the exams , I can't even imagine them memorizing enough of the answers to score a passing grade.

I'd be fine with having the FCC do the exams again for anyone within reasonable distance of an FCC office who is healthy enough to travel.  There's no code or diagrams for them to check any longer so any bureaucrat could administer the exam so it wouldn't matter if the examiner was licensed or not.  The bureaucrat would probably be more adept at checking id's and it unlikely that the bureaucrat would be one of the guys "good buddies" from the superbowl.   

[WB3LEQ]

Here is what I have noticed.  Ham radio is dieing off as a hobby.  It started it's first death throws back in the 1980's.  It is a total liability to the FCC due to the fact it generates very little revenue for them. Younger folks do 99% of their communicating via texting or other computerized methods.  There seems to be very few replacement members coming into the radio community.  The older generation is dieing off more rapidly based on the population of the baby boomer generation now coming of age.  Everybody notices that when you attend a hamfest you see very few younger folks in attendance.  The ones that are there seem to be there to provide the muscle in setting up the table and moving the stuff from the basement at home to the table at the fest.  Very few are licensed as hams.  If you ask them if they have a license they look back at you and just ask why bother getting involved in getting one. The FCC figures it's just a matter of time before they start auctioning our spectrum off to other industries and Christian broadcasters. 

I believe that integrity does not come in numbers and once again we must comply with what the FCC dictates.  Most likely in the next twenty years ham radio will be a thing of the past.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Here is what I have noticed.  Ham radio is dieing off as a hobby.  It started it's first death throws back in the 1980's.  It is a total liability to the FCC due to the fact it generates very little revenue for them. Younger folks do 99% of their communicating via texting or other computerized methods.  There seems to be very few replacement members coming into the radio community.  The older generation is dieing off more rapidly based on the population of the baby boomer generation now coming of age.  Everybody notices that when you attend a hamfest you see very few younger folks in attendance.  The ones that are there seem to be there to provide the muscle in setting up the table and moving the stuff from the basement at home to the table at the fest.  Very few are licensed as hams.  If you ask them if they have a license they look back at you and just ask why bother getting involved in getting one. The FCC figures it's just a matter of time before they start auctioning our spectrum off to other industries and Christian broadcasters. 

I believe that integrity does not come in numbers and once again we must comply with what the FCC dictates.  Most likely in the next twenty years ham radio will be a thing of the past.

Back in the mid 1980s, there were approximately 450,000 amateurs in the US. Now we're at approx. 707,000 licensees. http://ah0a.org/FCC/Graphs.html What's dying off other then old people?

You said: "Everybody notices that when you attend a hamfest you see very few younger folks in attendance"
It's the few times old hams get out to see people. Maybe younger hams have no interest in digging through someone's old junk, questionable equipment operation, and the pain of wandering through aisle after aisle of viewing older then dirt stuff. Maybe they like buying new or buying online. Maybe hamfests are what's really dying off.

[KA3EKH]

You have to have a license to talk on the radio? I thought you just had to put some letters and numbers together and start talking? Or that all the money you pay to get into ham fest took care of that! Considering what it cost to get into Timonium or Dayton would have thought that was enough, now you say I got to send money to something called the FCC?

[W2VW]

Instead of back room payoffs to VEs there should be established license sponsors.

They would be bonded and could have the power to appoint new licensees.

The new licensees would pay a fee to the sponsor. The sponsor alone would be responsible for testing/compliance.   

If the new licensee gets in some kind of trouble the sponsor would be required to pay any and all fines.

This system would be more in line with how the world works and tick off many old farts.

Old farts need something to complain about so they can feel special.

While were are dreaming let's also require anyone above the basic license to be retested every 5 years. This would bee a great help to online discussion forums as long time licensees will need to spend time studying instead of complaining. Informal questioning of many amateurs shows we couldn't pass the regulation part of current exams without brushing up.

Have a nice day.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Wow.....from three examiners to two.....that's some scary stuff!  I mean, what's next - cat juggling??

Any day that they're still giving amateur radio exams and amateur radio still exists is a good day in my book. Along the lines of spending another day above the ground and all that.

Cat juggling, though....we need to stop this.
 

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Dave, I like the way you think. It goes beyond pissing & moaning to actual action, what a concept. Especially the last part. When you are seen more than heard in amateur radio, it's time for a re-test.

Which means I'd better shut up, haven't been on a lot lately. Broken radios and other duties.

Don't (re)test me, bro!

[W2VW]

Dave, I like the way you think. It goes beyond pissing & moaning to actual action, what a concept. Especially the last part. When you are seen more than heard in amateur radio, it's time for a re-test.

Which means I'd better shut up, haven't been on a lot lately. Broken radios and other duties.

Don't (re)test me, bro!

You would be eligible for a special test waiver.
Help clean my garage.
Absolute power corrupts.

[AL7FS]

This thread is getting a bit silly, isn't it?  Are there any thoughtful responses out there? 

Joking around can be fun but this is my lifetime hobby and I find myself a little disappointed in the way this is being discussed.  If many current hams don't take serious topics as important, then we definitely need three examiners.

And yes, I know folks are just goofing around for fun but can't we tighten up the thread just a little bit?

Thanks.

73, Jim Larsen, AL7FS
Anchorage, Alaska

[Pete, WA2CWA]

This thread is getting a bit silly, isn't it?  Are there any thoughtful responses out there? 

Joking around can be fun but this is my lifetime hobby and I find myself a little disappointed in the way this is being discussed.  If many current hams don't take serious topics as important, then we definitely need three examiners.

And yes, I know folks are just goofing around for fun but can't we tighten up the thread just a little bit?

Thanks.

73, Jim Larsen, AL7FS
Anchorage, Alaska

As I said almost 4 days ago: "Actually, this is probably a nowhere going thread other then for more "off-the-cuff" type comments. The VE issue of potential fraud, corruption, bad boy club members, constipation, WMD's, back room black-robed gangsters, insurance mafia, black heel marks, etc. should be addressed directly to the FCC in the filing comments. Back and forth ratter-tatter here does nothing and changes nothing."

And, if you think your "lifetime hobby" is going to impacted by going from 3 to 2 VE's, there needs to be a check for reality. I doubt the world of amateur radio is going to change moving from 3 to 2 VE's. When I took my Advanced test, I had only one examiner.

I always thought cat juggling was just a rich man's sport.

[KB2WIG]

"  I always thought cat juggling was just a rich man's sport. "

I thought so too, untill ......

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-TEDR4b2b7hbbnm/the_jerk_1979_cat_juggling/

When will we ever learn.


klc