New FlexRadio 6000 Announced

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Specs and technical details look impressive.



Flex 6500 Transceiver - intro pricing stated as   $3999
Flex 6700 Transceiver -    "       "          "      "   $6999
Flex 6700R Receiver   -    "       "          "      "   $5999

Target date 4QT 2012
Additional details here: http://cart.flexradio.com/Signature-Series-Radios_c_17.html
Product brochure is here: http://www.flex-radio.com/FLEX-6000.pdf

Does the Flex 6000 have the same audio bandwidth ?(Transmit Bandwidth Default 300-2700 Hz (Variable 50-5000 Hz) for both 6500 & 6700

It's in the product brochure: Transmit audio bandwidth is continuously adjustable up to 10 kHz for AM and Enhanced Single Sideband Modes.

[W1ATR]

Notice the $199 charge for software upgrades and support for 1 year. Not for me
Flex must think they are zuckerburg.

Yep. That did it for me right there Frank. They produce and market a rig that relies on softwa.......wait, lemmee re-phrase that. They sell a $7000 rig that is worthless without software support and system upgrades, and they have the unmitigated nerve to charge $200 a year for providing support for their own product??? Good luck with that Flex.

I don't care if it has ears like the Arecibo telescope. Maybe they should rename the company to Flex radio Service.

  

[K6JEK]

Notice the $199 charge for software upgrades and support for 1 year. Not for me
Flex must think they are zuckerburg.

Yep. That did it for me right there Frank. They produce and market a rig that relies on softwa.......wait, lemmee re-phrase that. They sell a $7000 rig that is worthless without software support and system upgrades, and they have the unmitigated nerve to charge $200 a year for providing support for their own product??? Good luck with that Flex.

I don't care if it has ears like the Arecibo telescope. Maybe they should rename the company to Flex radio Service.

  

Remember. With Facebook you are the product not the customer. They are selling you.

I like paying for products (not too much) instead of being the product. I also don't mind paying for software upgrades. Like everyone else, I draw the line at paying for bug fixes. That's just wrong.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

They sell a $7000 rig that is worthless without software support and system upgrades, and they have the unmitigated nerve to charge $200 a year for providing support for their own product??? Good luck with that Flex.

I don't care if it has ears like the Arecibo telescope. Maybe they should rename the company to Flex radio Service.

There are many hardware and software companies that charge for support either through service/maintenance contracts or "what to talk to a real person", pay up first scenario. Service support, system upgrades, feature enhancements, or new features should have a monetary value associated with them. They all require time and effort and generally are not associated with zero cost to the manufacturer. However, as a consumer, no one is twisting the customer's arm to buy into this additional cost. At $200 a year, that breaks down to $.55 a day. If you just spent $7000 for rig, plus the investment of $1K to $2K for a super wizzy computer and monitor, I don't think $.55 a day is going to roll back a lot of eyes. A $7000 product investment that has the feature of continual improvement, features, etc. for $200 a year seems like a good investment. Many of the current amateur rigs depreciate rapidly when purchased and never have any option for enhancements or new features. Want new enhancements or features, go buy or wait for a newer rig to hit the market.

[KF1Z]

That's pretty horrible. An over priced radio to begin with.
The price clearly shows that all the R&D and software development costs
will already be paid for with the "introductory price".
( which will likely increase by the end of next year).


Software updates used to be a selling point for SDR.

Now they are just another sales item.


10 years with the radio, and assuming there are updates available each year, that's an
extra $2000 .

At least they don't make you pay for the software the first year.  



Hopefully, they will print an explanation describing what "upgrades" ( bug fixes etc...) come at no extra cost.
That would make some folks a little more comfortable signing onto an ongoing expense.

[W3RSW]

I have mixed emotions about this, vis. N8VB's much more open system with user input into,( gasp,) the actual programming, user bug catches and fixes, ideas carried out for improvement. 

On the other hand, Apple didn't become valuable and for that matter, viable, by one man operations, soldering own boards, getting a critical tool (20 power microscope) from wife as a present and possibly getting bogged down from dividing time and abilities between hardware and software.

So, yes, $200/yr. support seems to be the trend.  Closed systems like IBM's sooner or later will be reverse engineered.  Just as Smex (Smugex?) has "pirated" or "added value to" HPDSR and Phil's  DDC, so did Apple with Zerox Parc's mouse and GUI. 

My bigger problem is what kind of outfit takes orders a half year in advance and expects you to pay for the privilege of waiting with baited breath for the news letters about progress?  Further  what kind of people (yeah I was one once, OTI Quantum 6 in. Maksutov) puts down the money and then waits long after the promised delivery date and can't wait to shower the 'benefactor' with kudos even before the product is delivered.

How will that company now take care of it's stranded sound card, instantly obsolete, user base?  The two systems are imcompatable for upgrades. 

In Apple's defense, it tried, somewhat unsuccesfully, to maintain backwards compatability with The "II forever" 6502 design, what with a 16 bit IIGS, etc.  -But finally had to radically change over to the Mac (Jobs), yet still in our era maintains compatibility with microsoft/OS op. systems.

 A lot of decisions make or break(brake) a company.  Many 'fancy' ham companies leave the market after dipping into the aero-space/military market.  Quantum/OTI was one in optics.  I now have a very nice orphan with one moving part, thank God.

"Wrex" may have finally misread the amateur community.  A community not cheap, just frugal and savy  enough about the business to know the design, know the cost of parts in single and bulk lots, know enough about business to estimate overhead, design talent cost, hype and character.  What closed systems miss is "family."

This will be interesting.  I'm really impressed with the 6000 specs. About time a faster than 125 MhZ DDC came along. - Interesting ancillary chips going with it too.  Don't think thought that I'll "get in on the ground floor."   As previously mentioned others will step in with the same or better in the not too distant future.

On a bright note; "GO, USA"

[W3RSW]

Here you go,
Build your own.  Analog devices engineer puts it all together for you.  Note the discussion on clock jitter for increasing analog input of the AD9467.

well, a good start...   

http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ad9467/products/product.html

[W1AEX]

It should be very interesting to see how it all ends up. The funniest thing I read was the whining from a predictable group of Flex owners who were upset that they were being left behind with the addition of the new 6000 series. As if everything should be frozen in time so their investment wouldn't become "obsolete". Many of those folks are the same ones clamoring for better performance and improvements. Very shortly I expect to hear the arguments that the 1500/3000/5000 platforms are better than the 6000 series because (insert stupid reasons here that sound like SDR-1000 owners explaining why the 1500/3000/5000 platforms suck).

There is an obvious subset of people obsessed with juvenile "one-ups-man-ship" within our ham radio community who have to make it known that their rig (that they bought) is the best of the best. Seems like many people lose perspective and forget that it's only a hobby. I'm no Flex fanboy but I do like the rig I purchased from them. I don't mind spending a few bucks for something that I enjoy, and I also don't mind building or restoring something that I enjoy, but the key word is that since it's a hobby I want to enjoy myself.

At any rate, the reality is that for most hams a vastly improved receive capability (if this proves to be true) simply means that they will hear their neighbor's appliances and the utility company's grid faults even louder. I applaud Flex for adding new stuff, and as far as the path they've chosen for service/software/support is concerned, it will either succeed or fail based upon how receptive their client base is. That's the way it should be.

Rob W1AEX

[KF1Z]

Oh yes...

I am indeed happy that Flex finally took the step into RF sampling devices ( ADC/DAC) rather than using audio devices.
That WILL change the appliance operator's experience in ways they won't even realize.

Do I think Flex should make the radio available at cost? or with very small profit?  NO, that would be silly.

Do I think taking deposits ( refundable deposits only..) and waiting until delivery? no, that's ok too.
Though I wouldn't think that Flex NEEDS to do that... I bet they have plenty of revenue from other sales
to float manufacturing costs.



New products are available all the time, those that feel left out because suddenly there's something better should just calm down and think a little!   

[Steve - K4HX]

All this P&Ming about closed software and upgrade costs mostly by people using the Window OS. Pot to kettle and duh!

[W3RSW]

Is that sort of like the pot calling the kettle black?

..and are you using a water clock driven, peg and wheel computer, rachet driven stylus?

We have far more in common than p&m differences.

[Steve - K4HX]

No. I'm using a closed software OS and I pay for updates. BUT, I'm not P&M about the Flex equivalent. Others are and that's my point.  

Bottom line: If you don't like the Flex 6000, don't buy it. This mine is better than yours BS gets old.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

They have a LiveStream web cam at the Hamvention FlexRadio booth but the position of the camera doesn't really show the 6000 series.
The LiveStream video URL is here: http://www.livestream.com/flexradiosystems

[WA1GFZ]

Marketing scam the A/D they are using is only 12 effective bits above 5MHz
But they will pump the sampling rate to the fools.
It will be interesting to see some real specs because I only see fluff.
glad i don't have to pay $.55 a day for my Drake TR7A or V2 CDC.
Get the sucker hams to pay for beta testing and do the testing for free then market to the mil guys for big bucks

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Marketing scam the A/D they are using is only 12 effective bits above 5MHz
But they will pump the sampling rate to the fools.
It will be interesting to see some real specs because I only see fluff.
glad i don't have to pay $.55 a day for my Drake TR7A or V2 CDC.
Get the sucker hams to pay for beta testing and do the testing for free then market to the mil guys for big bucks

We all know that the amateur radio world is full of conspiracies, marketing hype, products that resemble a gaggle of boards hooked together with an octopus back-plane, bad vibes, imaginary products, and back-room gangsters. $.55 a day for a Drake TR7A or V2 CDC is silly; they're both dead products.

[K6JEK]

I have an SDR 1000. It's way better than the later models because it took lots of fiddling and fussing to get it to work and that is the essence of fun.

I am crazy for the spectrum display but alas I use the Flex very rarely. Boat anchors are even more temperamental. In fact sometimes they don't work at all when yesterday they did. Fabulous.

[WA1GFZ]

At first glance from gagle land I thought the radio quite cool until I looked closer.
Then I just stated fact.
Heck I bet the 5 year old 14 bit Perseus is a better radio.
Sorry it burst the bubble and set off the BS detector

[W3RSW]

Hmmmm, Frank.  Velly Intellesting.  We need to look at the rest of the chips too. I'll have to look closer at the modified AD9467-250EBZ circuit eval. board along with the companion HSC-ADC-EVAlCZ FPGA data capture board shown in the AD engineer's video to see if such evil lurks there too.   Boy did you get a load of his wall of test apparatus? 

Oh just plug into your Rhody here and grab a handful of filters there...
Just cool down your helium dewar there, insert your TXCO there...
Calib. vs. GPS here and Vector two stars 'till morning.

Flex should've hired that guy.

[W3RSW]

OK, found it.  Page 4 of AD9467 specs PDF file. "AC specifications"
5Mhz and up 12.1 to 12.4 effective bits, +/- a tenth of a bit or so.

Maybe thats why the FFT spikes are so flat topped and cartoonish in their demo GUI spectra..     (well, not really, but.... )

[W1AEX]

Decimation and log calculations aren't in my vast list of strengths, but there was a very interesting question regarding the 6000 series 16 bit A/D architecture, sampling rate, and the 25 bit DDS in the Flex reflector. I won't pretend to understand what the Flex programmer said (Steve N5AC) but you two guys can probably make sense of it:

http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/msg47919.html

Get your calculators out and enjoy!

73,

Rob W1AEX

[Steve - K4HX]

Mine is better. All others are junk. Anyone who has one of "those radios" is a fool.

How sad.

[WA1GFZ]

One of the great minds told me Flex tried to hire him. The pay was the honor of being part of the team.
Rick, glad you understand the spec. I don't want anybody to think I'm making this stuff up. The first thinng I noticed was it wasn't an ITAR part like the 2208. Now check out the offset slop. I think it was 150 counts.
Some smart guy please explain how extra oversample makes up for 4 bits of resolution???

[W1AEX]

Mine is better. All others are junk. Anyone who has one of "those radios" is a fool.

That line of thought always reminds me of Tom K1JJ's reference to the much beloved "TS-XXX Pro Field Disco Duck" rig that will always be at the top of the heap.

Incidentally, many eyebrows were raised at the brochure's TX bandwidth limitation of 10 kc for double sideband modes. In the FlexEdge forum fellow AM'er Chris Sanger (KB3KRJ) had the following dialog with Tim Ellison from Flex that indicates that Flex has decided to lift this restriction:

Chris:  The specs call for up to 10k wide transmit bandwidth ... on AM will this be 10k on either side of carrier?
Tim:  5K max one sideband.  10K max for double side band modes.
Tim - 24 hours later:  We have decided to expand this beyond the 5kHz listed on the brochure. It will probably meet or exceed the FLEX-5000 bandwidth.

The last statement indicates an equivalence to the 5000A which means at least plus and minus 20 kc to allow a maximum of 40 kc for double sideband modes.

Rob W1AEX

[WA1GFZ]

When you claim to be the best, you should be

[WA1GFZ]

Wow, there is a lot of ASS_U_ME in that flex article. 25.5 bits, yea right. assume no clock jitter assume it is really a 16 bit converter. we will see when a guy like Sherwood puts it on the bench.  FYI the gagle machine and QSR1 gain a few dB over the 96dB due to 16 real bits. Notice flex spouts in band IMD only, another worthless spec. I bet the R390 can beat that number for in band since it has an AVC.
Their processor and back end look good but the A/D is very lacking. Also the hi pass and low pass filters look good. But why use such a crappy A/D the heart of the system.