Dayton Hamvention

[Sam KS2AM]

No AM forum again this year ?

http://www.hamvention.org/forums.php


Nice overhead shot from the ballon launch last year.



http://www.hamvention.org/images/content_images/daytonballoon10_1000feet.PNG

[KB5MD]

"Be there or be square"

[N8IE]

I'm just curious if we'll see the poo geyser again this year! 

[KA3EKH]

As long as they insist on staying in a dump like the Hara Arena anything can happen. I like how they tell you that there will be a $50 fine for any holes you put in the parking lot! Like you can tell any new holes from the holes and ruts that are already there. I started going to Dayton back in 79 but I did miss a couple years back in the nineties and in all that time have not seen one improvement at the venue. Think there was some talk about moving it to Columbus some years back but don’t know what happened with that. Other then the Hamvention don’t think anything else happens in Dayton so maybe they need to keep it there?

[Sam KS2AM]

Bluegrass at last years Hamvention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4WYT6aDEq4

[N8IE]

As long as they insist on staying in a dump like the Hara Arena anything can happen. I like how they tell you that there will be a $50 fine for any holes you put in the parking lot! Like you can tell any new holes from the holes and ruts that are already there. I started going to Dayton back in 79 but I did miss a couple years back in the nineties and in all that time have not seen one improvement at the venue. Think there was some talk about moving it to Columbus some years back but don’t know what happened with that. Other then the Hamvention don’t think anything else happens in Dayton so maybe they need to keep it there?

DARA needs that Hamvention money so they can keep giving away D-Star radios at their monthly meetings. For a club that hosts the largest gathering of Amateur Radio Operators in the world, they are at best a joke. IMHO. 

I grew up in Dayton, and moved out as soon as I had kids. It's a sh1t hole of a city, so yeah they need the money. 

[KA3EKH]

Yea, kind of had the same feeling but did not want to use the same words. Thought I may offend. What the hell happened to Dayton anyway? Remember in the seventies and eighties there was a lot going on out there and now threes nothing. Driving into the city every second or third house was abandoned or empty and it looks like all the industry pulled out. I know the economy is in the toilet but looks like Dayton got more of a flush then most.
As far as the Blue Grass goes a couple years back my selling space was about four spaces away from those people and after four or five hours of the "twangy" stuff that was enough to make me want different spaces although it was not as bad as the year there were two guys dressed up like the blues brothers hawking consumer returned junk with bullhorns. After all that moved couple rows away from gate A
 

[k4kyv]

As long as they insist on staying in a dump like the Hara Arena anything can happen. I like how they tell you that there will be a $50 fine for any holes you put in the parking lot! Like you can tell any new holes from the holes and ruts that are already there. I started going to Dayton back in 79 but I did miss a couple years back in the nineties and in all that time have not seen one improvement at the venue. Think there was some talk about moving it to Columbus some years back but don’t know what happened with that. Other then the Hamvention don’t think anything else happens in Dayton so maybe they need to keep it there?

As much of a dump that HARA is, when the inevitable day comes that $$omeone make$$ an offer they can't refuse and it is closed down and the hamfest has to move, that will be the end of the Hamvention as we know it. I suspect the only reason that hasn't already happened is fallout from the crash of the economy in '07.  I have seen it happen many times.  A hamfest moves from its long time spot, even to a nicer location, and attendance drops off, never to return to its previous level, and in some cases eventually fizzles out completely.  The Cincinnati hamfest in September used to be almost as good as Dayton.  Then the downtown hamfest site, known as Stricker's Grove, was sold for development, and a new Stricker's Grove was opened farther on out beyond the edge of town.  It was a very pleasant park with plenty of shade, open space and clean facilities, but the hamfest began to fizzle the year it was moved. I understand the hamfest still exists but has moved again, and has dwindled down to a small local event.  A similar thing happened to the Cedars of Lebanon hamfest near Nashville.  For some reason they moved it out of the state park to another location, changed it from an outdoor-only to an indoor/outdoor event, and many people never came back. I hear that the Rochester NY hamfest went downhill when it was moved. I understand that the Shelby NC hamfest may be an exeption, at least the first couple of years at the new venue. Also Seabrook NH/Deerfield NH/Nearfest, but that one was not a long-established-for-decades-at-one-spot event, like Dayton.

Attendance at Dayton has fallen off dramatically the past few years.  It used to be you had to order a flea market space months in advance, and all the spaces were filled.  The past few years there have been plenty of open spaces, and you can once again rent a space on the spot upon arrival.  In its heyday, it was a one-day event.  Then they extended it to Sunday.  Then to a half-day, beginning Friday afternoon, and finally to a full day Friday.  With the drop off in flea market spaces, maybe the market area should be consolidated and more space opened for parking near the flea market.  It sucks big time having to lug a 32V3 or a 100-lb. transformer a half mile to the nearest parking space, or worse still, on a shuttle bus to a parking area several miles away.

I understand that what happened to the AM forum was that the hamfest people screwed up one year and failed to reserve a room for the Forum.  The "mistake" allegedly was not discovered until it was too late; all forum areas were already taken, so the AM group was SOL.  Dale and others enjoyed so much just being able to attend the hamfest that year without all the hassles and extra work for the Forum, that they decided not to do it any more.  I helped with the Forum for the first several years, and it took a lot of effort on everyone's part. Maybe if someone wants badly enough to reinstate it, they will take the initiative to re-organise one. That would be a good project for a couple of avid AMers who attend regularly but who do not wish to spend every available moment in the flea market while the fest is going on.

[N8IE]

I think what really hurt the Dayton Hamvention was the move from April to May. The bigger vendors that are the bread and butter of Hamvention have to plan their shows sometimes two years in advance. What may have seemed like a good idea turned out to be bad, since the switch attendance has fallen off, even Cushcraft has stopped coming to Dayton.

Hamvention could be moved, a great place is at the Dayton International Airport, but that would cut into the pockets of DARA. Yeah I used to be a DARA member on a few different occasions, after years of in-fighting and squabbling I dropped out.

Dayton the city has been so mismanaged over the past 4 decades it's beyond hope. Dayton was a manufacturing town and at one point the leading machine tool city in the country, that was before the reign of C.J. McLin and his daughter Rhine. So much history in Dayton wasted, sad, sad, sad. 

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I think what really hurt the Dayton Hamvention was the move from April to May. The bigger vendors that are the bread and butter of Hamvention have to plan their shows sometimes two years in advance. What may have seemed like a good idea turned out to be bad, since the switch attendance has fallen off, even Cushcraft has stopped coming to Dayton.

Cushcraft appears under the MFJ umbrella but they also have two booths at Hamvention.

Current outdoor floor plan (Booked, Reserved, Available) April 17:
https://tracker.hamvention.org/webrental/DARA/Contents/LayoutPanel.aspx?Id=17&Name=&EId=30&Page=Index&CategoryID=FleaMarket&askLogin=Yes

Current indoor floor plan (Booked, Reserved, Available) April 17:
https://tracker.hamvention.org/webrental/DARA/Contents/LayoutPanel.aspx?Id=17&Name=&EId=30&Page=Index&CategoryID=Exhibitor&askLogin=Yes

For those who prefer lists to maps:
http://www.pcboard.ca/hamvention2012/

[Sam KS2AM]

Attendance at Dayton has fallen off dramatically the past few years.  

Ah yes, this time of year not only means the Dayton Hamvention but the official start of the Hamvention misinformation-fest.  The attendance has actually been increasing consistently every year since 2008.  Thats something I find remarkable in light of the fact that you can often get a better deal as a buyer or seller online for new or used gear.  Kinda helps restore your faith in amateur radio unless of course one is a perennial gloom-and-doomer in which case every event is an excuse to find the dark cloud obscuring a lovely silver lining.

It sucks big time having to lug a 32V3 or a 100-lb. transformer a half mile to the nearest parking space, or worse still, on a shuttle bus to a parking area several miles away.

You can get a temp pass and bring your vehicle to the back of the flea market anytime to pick up heavy gear.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Attendance at Dayton has fallen off dramatically the past few years.  

Ah yes, this time of year not only means the Dayton Hamvention but the official start of the Hamvention misinformation-fest.  The attendance has actually been increasing consistently every year since 2005.  Something I find remarkable in light of the fact that you can often get a better deal as a buyer or seller online for new or used gear.  Kinda helps restore your faith in amateur radio unless of course one is a perennial gloom-and-doomer in which case every event is an excuse to find the dark cloud obscuring a lovely silver lining.

It sucks big time having to lug a 32V3 or a 100-lb. transformer a half mile to the nearest parking space, or worse still, on a shuttle bus to a parking area several miles away.

You can get a temp pass and bring your vehicle to the back of the flea market anytime to pick up heavy gear.

Too much good logic and common sense in your post.    I have the Dayton numbers.

[k4kyv]

If the numbers are up, then why were 1/3 the flea market spaces empty this past year, and probably 25% empty the year before? It used to be that you dared not even think of arriving with a load of stuff to sell unless you already had reserved a spot and your reservation was verified on your advanced ticket, but last year they were taking drop-ins. And in recent years one could actually navigate through the corridors of the market without having to squeeze through the mass of sweaty bodies.  Smaller attendance is not necessarily a bad thing.  I actually saw more goodies that interested me in the dwindled market last year, than I had seen in several years.

To me, the flea market IS the hamfest.  One year within the past decade or so, I didn't even darken the door to the indoor stuff the whole time.  I usually take a quick tour or two through the indoor stuff and maybe take in a forum or two, but still end up spending 90% of my time in the outdoor area. I can easily manage to scour the whole market with a fine-tooth comb at least 5 or 6 times. I suppose that takes a certain learned technique, since I often hear people complain that they weren't able to get through the whole thing and see everything even once during the entre two days.

So maybe the administrators claim that attendance is up according to the number of tickets sold, but if the flea market has dwindled (both buyers and sellers) as appears to be the case, then to me the hamfest has dwindled regardless of ticket statistics. Again, that may not be a bad thing.  There are limits to growth; it would be physically impossible for the thing to keep on expanding year after year in the limited space available, and as long as the Arena is there, that's probably the best place to keep having it, if there is adequate parking available within easy walking distance.

One problem with using the temporary parking area to pick up heavy stuff, if you parked in the field across the road, is that your space will probably be taken when you return and you will have to settle for a distant spot in the very back of the field.  I make it a point to get there early and get a spot as close to the gate as I can, and not budge from there till it's over.

Regarding the  date, the biggest mistake they ever made was about 15 years ago when they moved it from the 3rd weekend in April to the 4th.  That one week's difference made a huge difference in the weather.  It got rained out almost every year after they moved it to a week later, but every time I attended in the rain and asked the locals what the weather was like the week before (the old date), they would say the weather was fine then and would have been a good weekend to have the hamfest. The later date in May is a little better, but it still gets rained on a lot more than it did the original date.  Another problem with the May date is that the hamfest conflicts with both high school and university graduations all over the country.  It might have been chilly the original April date, and I have seen it spit snow (as well as sunny and in the 80s), but it hardly ever rained and graduation was still weeks away. I have heard numerous stories, but never have heard a definitive explanation why the original date was changed or why they couldn't have returned to it.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

In 2011, there were 2232 flea market spaces. Of those, on opening day there were 434 spaces available. No data on how may were filled. Indoor, there were 495 booths available. On opening day, 15 were available.

In 2010, there were 2256 flea market spaces. Of those, on opening day there were 493 spaces available. No data on how may were filled. Indoor, there were 444 booths available. On opening day all were allocated.

Your statement, "1/3 the flea market spaces empty this past year, and probably 25% empty the year before" falls short.

But I bet scooter rentals are climbing each year.

I suspect, that while the flea market still draws some attention, the main attractions are the indoor vendors, the forums, and the numerous outside amateur radio activities around the area.

[KA3EKH]

The flea market is where it's at, unless you're one of those SDR or new equipment only Hams.
Maybe as the demographic for Ham radio changes from people who can do things with their hands and tools to people who do things with a keyboard or a off the shelf product we will see it evolve to more of a consumer oriented product show, and if that’s the way things evolve that’s how it will be but myself being a Luddite will always be more interested in what's outside at the flea market then what's the newest YacaWoo or the latest software base radio that only runs under the sixty four bit version of Windows 7 or some other hardware requirement I can't comprehend.  For over twenty years I have been there and at least two or three times I have not gone in any of the buildings and other times I go inside only to use the flush toilets instead of the port -o- pots. Do recall a couple years when you were not able to get around on Saturday due to the huge crowds but have not seen that in a while. Of all the Hamfest I hit in the north east none compare with Dayton. If you can't find something you're looking for there you probably should go into something like stamp collecting. I always find something interesting and quite often unexpected to buy and have always done very well selling there. The spaces are $70 each but if you buy a space you only have to drag junk back to the space and not deal with parking, the last couple years I take a hand truck because everything I buy is big, heavy and many consider useless. I cannot imagine any of us don’t have several items around the house that they can sell and recover the cost of the space.  And you cannot discount the fact that regardless of your aria of interest there will be more like minded people who enjoy the same aspects of the hobby as you do than anywhere else. Think people like me want to sit around and complain about things like Dayton and what a dump Hara arena is or how badly things are run or that the weather at that time of the year sucks but at the end of the day I am willing to drive six hundred miles take three days off from work and spend a bucket of money on going each year so that says something and at this point regardless of the smelly dilapidated building, parking lot that’s as rutted as a Afghanistan road, overpriced fleabag hotels and hordes of hams who bitch and complain that there are no free hats, I will still be going.

[WA3VJB]

Bluegrass at last years Hamvention:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4WYT6aDEq4

Same guys were there earlier too.  I used them as a music bed for some familiar faces you'll see here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLeh9zYQfC4

[W2JRO]

I can speak about the Rochester Hamfest. I've been going since the mid 70's.
Up until about 5 years ago, it was held at the Monroe County Fairgrounds with its famous (or infamous) Dome, which held the commercial vendors. Over the years, it slipped to at best, 70% hamfest, 20% surplus computer show, 10% unrelated swap meet junk. In addition, the organizers had big issues with Hamfest dumps...junk that was left in swap spaces after the hamfest by people that didn't want to take it home. Major violators included people hawking Military surplus gear.
From what I could gather, the was a rift between factions inside RARA (the club sponsoring the fest) and county fairgrounds, so it was moved to a new location. It was smaller, but it was more Ham radio centric. It appears they have outgrown that facility and have moved the fest to the RIT campus for 2012. The only problem is the new date, June 30. I think it is a very poor choice for the area, as it coincides with the celebration of 4th of July and many High school graduation parties in the Northeast. I can't see attendance going up if they stick to this time period. When the fest was at the fairgrounds, the date was typically the weekend before the Memorial day weekend and when at the other site, it was the weekend after Memorial day.
Maybe they were forced into this date, but I hope they change it for future years.

[KB2WIG]

Off topic a bit.....


Harbor Freight has a hand cart reel cheep  ($40).....

http://www.harborfreight.com/heavy-duty-hand-truck-95061.html

Its rated at 600#: I've used it to move stuff, but will not chance the 600#. It will fit in the car, so you can park and haul.

As fer Rockchester, I didn't get a chance to go last year. I've been to the 'new' spot one time. No beer tent. No photo opps ( Did  'VJB ever fix his camera?). It was much better than the last time I was at the Dome.

The date is the week after field day. I wonder how many people who would have gone to the fest will be burnt out and not attend?

klc

[DMOD]

While I have never atended Dayton and don't plan to in the near future. I simply prefer the local Hamfests say at Peoria, Sandwich and West Liberty, etc., because I find more older components and rigs at good prices.

As far moving heavy equipment, I bring my dolly and some Bunge cords. Luggin' around an eighty pound Viking 1 or HT-37 is no fun unless you simply want to extend your workout. 

Phil - AC0OB

[k4kyv]

In 2011, there were 2232 flea market spaces. Of those, on opening day there were 434 spaces available. No data on how may were filled. Indoor, there were 495 booths available. On opening day, 15 were available.

In 2010, there were 2256 flea market spaces. Of those, on opening day there were 493 spaces available. No data on how may were filled. Indoor, there were 444 booths available. On opening day all were allocated.

Your statement, "1/3 the flea market spaces empty this past year, and probably 25% empty the year before" falls short.

I didn't count empty spaces, but  there certainly was a lot of bare asphalt and spaces sporting nothing but locked vehicles. 493 available spaces is still a far cry from NO empty spaces, as was always the case for years in the recent past.  Maybe there were a lot of no-shows who had purchased slots?

One thing I noticed in 2011 was more ham-related items and less obsolete computer junk, industrial waste like heavy-duty impact drills and crapped out hydraulic pumps, CB junk and non-radio related artsy-crafty stuff.

I suspect more than a few attendees rent a flea market spot for the sole purpose of convenient parking where all the goodies are.  A few years ago the hamfest administrators announced that they were cracking down on that practice, but it is hard to imagine how they would do it, since the ticket is good for 3 days, and legitimate vendors may not be there to man their spots 100% of the time.  Or one may sell everything by noon Friday, but the slot rental is still good for all 3 days. OTOH, one could bring along a card table and pile some useless junk on it to make it appear that someone is trying to sell something.

Unlike a lot of people in attendance, I didn't gripe and complain about the sh#t volcano.  I thought it was hilarious.  I'm sure I would have felt differently had I occupied one of those spaces directly in the path of the creek that carried away the flow.  I believe they let some of those vendors move to near-by empty slots, but I saw a few items get ruined in the flow, or at least boxes containing the stuff were dissolved, and some of the stuff was abandoned.

I wish Peoria and Shelby were a little closer; I would probably include those on my hamfest circuit too, at least from time to time.  Dayton is about the outer limit of distance that I am willing to travel for a hamfest these days.  But that wasn't always the case.  Back in the 70s I drove from the Boston area to Dayton several times (about 700 miles each way), plus attended Rochester a couple of times, and travelled from here to the Chicago area a time or two.  Back then there were loads of goodies to be had, before "boat anchors" and "vintage" had become fashionable and when AM was supposed to be dead, and most of the older stuff hauled to hamfests instead of the landfill went for scrap-metal prices. It wasn't unusual to see KW modulation transformers with $10 price tags, n.i.b. 450TLs for $5 (they were reputedly no good for "linears"), and DX-100s and Rangers sell for $25.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

From the late 80's through the 90's, you couldn't walk ten steps in the flea market without running a pile of computer related stuff. It was all over the place. Same with test equipment. Every place you looked there were racks or piles of test equipment for sale. Spaces were cheaper, gas was cheaper, hotel rooms were cheaper, auction sites were just starting up. It wasn't unusual that all spaces (and there were less spaces back then) in the flea market were in use. As you can see from the flea market map (link posted in earlier thread), as years go by and if Hamvention remains at HARA, there probably would be some consideration to slicing off the West end (between Gates H and I) or the East end (between Gates A and B) and turning the area(s) into paid customer parking. I cannot see any rational that all the flea spaces will be completely filled as in their past glory years. Those years have past. Further, with each pasting year, operating costs to run Hamvention will continue to rise, leading either to increasing entrance and space/booth fees and/or cost cutting the entire operation.

[K5UJ]

Indeed Don, one must trust the empirical evidence.   At my first Dayton Hamvention in 2000, which in hindsight was at the tail end of the high attendance period but even so, was down from a few years earlier, it took two full days for me to see everything, and I was dog tired at the end of the day on Saturday.  Two years ago I breezed through the whole show by at most Friday afternoon.  Frankly, Saturday was embarrassing--there were so many empty spaces in the flea market it looked like a regular large regional fest and in some spots you had to cover 20 or 30 yards to get from one seller's space to the next one. 

I liken the statistics to that of the ARRL licensee news report, which neglects to  mention the number of cancelled  licenses and non-renewals.  In other words, the numbers may not tell everything going on at first glance.  I notice the largest license class now is Technician and Extra is 18% of the total; in the 1970s it was 5%.  That tells you a few things.  In the case of Dayton, perhaps attendance is up, with most of it indoors.   

[K5WLF]

Never been to Dayton, but I've noticed a downturn in attendance at the 'fests here in TX. Spring Belton HamExpo was last Saturday and it was the smallest I've ever seen it. The double rows of tables were spread out so that there was about 12'-15' between them on the inside of the rows (vendor area) and about 20'+ between the rows (customer area). There was maybe a total of 20 tailgaters, whereas in years past I've seen 100 or more.

I think part of it is due to the high fuel prices, but can't help but wonder if the decreased interest in DIY and HB is knocking out the used and BA sellers and just leaving the 'fests as a haven for appliance operators and new gear vendors.

We'll see how Plano turns out this year.

[k4kyv]

I think part of it is due to the high fuel prices, but can't help but wonder if the decreased interest in DIY and HB is knocking out the used and BA sellers and just leaving the 'fests as a haven for appliance operators and new gear vendors.

Also, on-line swaps and internet sales.  Within the past year or so, I have acquired more stuff (parts and tubes) that I actually had an immediate use for, via correspondence with members of this Forum than from any hamfest I have attended recently. Plus ePay (which I rarely involve myself with), Craigs List and other swap lists, not to mention the ham radio swap 'n shop lists.

Looks like appliance operators and new gear enthusiasts is what ham radio has become, and hardly anyone outside our own interest circle even questions it any more.  We are a fringe interest group, one of the last remaining vestiges of what used to be the pure essence of amateur radio.

[W2WDX]

HI,

I think you hit the proverbial nail, but on an angle so to speak. I think the downturn at festers is due in large part to online activities and gas prices. But I do not find interest in Ham Radio waning. On the contrary, it has just shifted focus, both in terms of operating practices and purchasing choices.

If you want modern features, it is tough to build these days. Many guys build SS now, and most of those components aren't even available at festers. Restoring BA's is much harder these days due to a lack of available parts, including tubes. So many do not bother, and simply buy already restored radios online. This is something I know very well.

Also there are many other things to do now in Ham radio. Many do not use code or phone, but operate exclusively with data. More than you'd think. I do say that guys building AM transmitters with bigassed tubes are a fringe group. But that is because of parts problems and cost. It's cheaper (and we all know hams are cheap) to build legal limit, Hi-Fi transmitters with SS. And the parts are easily available. Try to find a new legal limit mod tranny or reactor, even at a fester. Or even a good used one. The AM community in general is not a fringe group. It's actually growing compared to recent years. Mostly due to the availability of restored BA's online and interest in ClassE type building.

Festers are at best disappointing for most. You simply never have the wide selection like you find online, and with surfing your feet don't get sore. Plus you get guys like me who show up at festers and buy ALL the best stuff in the first half hour of the fester. Doesn't leave much. I bought about 50% of the better BA deals at the last Boxborough in the first hour it opened. Had a box truck with me.

It's a different world, with access to stuff in different ways. It doesn't mean that things are declining. They are just changing.

John, W2WDX