Splattermaster

[The Slab Bacon]

I washed my hands of this bunch a long time ago so I can't tell you Don.  I only know that if you were located where I am you would pitch a bitch about the poor quality signals.  I repeat, I have told all of them about their problems and they ignore anyone who says such.  From their point, they say the listening station doesn't know what they are doing.

Slab, you must have missed the part where I said the front end of the receiver is overloaded.  But since I am 120 miles away and have problems, it isn't all the complainer's receiver.

Guys there is no defending the operation of several of these guys.  They are not operating properly and could have mistuned equipment, have equipment with troubles or who knows.  They are a nuisance here and blank out any chance I have of talking to the MoKan group on 85 or the group on 75 in CO, Ne, and WY.

Jim,
      I never realized that this has become the festering boil that it has become.
I watched the first 2 videos and just assumed this was the usual slop bucketeers  pissing and moaning about AMers. We have had that same szht up here for some time with a few of the AMers just wiped it out for everyone. The infamous "Scranton Screwball", and K1MAN being prime examples. I have not been real active on the bands for the last couple of years, so I have missed all of this. (I used to listen a lot with the transmitter turned off)

It did get really bad up here in AM ghetto/window and I moved "down band" just to get away from it. The grousing, grumbling and infighting just got on my nerves. It is usually so much nicer down there. The big problem is that many of my buddies cant join us.

Whooping, hollering and carrying on can be a lot fun if it is all done in fun but...........
It really sucks when it is done with malice in ones heart. It is a shame that folks of a kindred spirit cant come together, and a few are hell-bent to screw it up for everyone else or just dont care about anyone else. Life is too short!!

[KB5MD]

I operate a converted broadcast transmitter and a couple of other large homebrew transmitters.  If I splatter (and probably have at times, unintentionally) I would hope someone would PM me or just outright tell me to "back it down alittle", not put it on YouTube as this has been done.  If  you will not identify yourself to me, then don't expect too much consideration on my part.

Constructive criticism is welcome anytime as most of the folks on this board know a heck of alot more than I can ever hope to learn about old time radio.  I think of it as a doing me a favor. 

[The Slab Bacon]

Constructive criticism is welcome anytime as most of the folks on this board know a heck of alot more than I can ever hope to learn about old time radio.  I think of it as a doing me a favor. 

Ditto!! I think we all feel the same way (at least I do). But.....................

With all of the pissing and moaning from the slopbucketeers that cozy up just a couple of Kc away from us and bitch about our interference or "being too wide", etc, it can have a tendancy to fall on deaf ears. Depending on where the complaints come from.
Sometimes you get tired of hearing it when you know your signal is clean.

[WA3VJB]

FCC regulations treat differently the problem of "splatter" versus the use of high data rates (bandwidth).  The difference is often lost on the aggrieved parties.

"Splatter" is actionable under enforcement mechanisms that rely on technical standards.

High data rates, transmitted cleanly, without unwanted emissions, are a matter of operating coordination and cooperation with others nearby.  If interference is caused by incompatible modes and/or activity, the FCC relies first on operators to settle it.  Chronic cases can be investigated as malicious interference.

No licensee can have an expectation of complete protection against interference among the various un-channelized modes and activities we encounter.

[Jim, W5JO]

      I never realized that this has become the festering boil that it has become.
I watched the first 2 videos and just assumed this was the usual slop bucketeers  pissing and moaning about AMers. We have had that same szht up here for some time with a few of the AMers just wiped it out for everyone. The infamous "Scranton Screwball", and K1MAN being prime examples. I have not been real active on the bands for the last couple of years, so I have missed all of this. (I used to listen a lot with the transmitter turned off)

Slab, this is not just a simple case of harassment that you routinely see.  We have the same stuff here, this is entirely different.  A couple of people who have trouble are using transmitters furnished by W0VMC.  As you know, he will set one properly as you can tell from hearing his signal on the air.  However some of those who have his converted equipment are splattering across 20-30 kc. 

Refer to Darrell's mention of the guy using a 100 watt transmitter to drive a Warrior amp.  That guy has a very deep voice and I have had an ongoing fight with him over the past 4-5 years.  At one time he had a McKie (sic?) Marine that he overdrove to the point I am suprised it survived.  He called me the frequency cop.  Another guy now owns the Mackie and he doesn't have the problem.   In the beginning I would call these guys on the phone to tell them and after several attempts I resorted to public pronouncements.  Nothing worked.  One of these guys told me he uses a specturm analyzer to set modulation precentage on AM.

The guy who posted the video lives so close to Robert that it would be impossible for both to operate 80 meters at the same time.  I know the guy has talked to Robert about it but don't know how Robert responded so I won't blame either party except to say they should get together and solve the problem.  Sometimes Robert does splatter but most of the time his signal is clear. 

Roy KB5MD has recycled BC equipment, his signal here is always very strong and is not a problem.  I don't know of anyone  in our area who has the problem that are subscribed to this board.   It is just that some blatently refuse to listen and fix the problem.  These guys operate mostly on 3.890 and I like to ocassionally talk to Jim, W0NKL or Ted, Ex-KC3OL, or Mike, K0ARA all on 3.885.  When the bunch is on 90 that is impossible so I don't work that part of the band any more and I live more than 100 miles from the people who are splattering.

[K5IIA]

well i will say this. you may feel that people do not take your advise on problems you see with their station. i also notice that some people do not take the common advise of if your a 5kc off of a 40 over signal what do you think is going to happen. 

don is 4 or 5 hundred miles from me, and i would think everyone would agree he has a clean signal and runs his stuff right. do you think there is any way i would fire up on 3.885 if he was on 3890 and try to talk so to someone? it would be silly on my part to even try. if i lived 100 miles from him i would figure it would even be harder. and that is with a grade a station. now take an average station and it woudl be even worse.

steve qix. he is what 1000 miles or more from me. same situation. about same sig little more freq response and a ton of audio power.

when i hear the guys in texas talking i will operate 5kc off of them sometimes but to me they are all talking pretty close in and i know that my signal will not be stronger then the ones they are working. they are a pretty small group and usualy dont work many piss weak stations trying to come in. so i do not feel i bother them. and just like roy said if i did all they would have to do is say someting and i would move or shut down for a while.

k1jj told me a year ago. if you put up a good antenna and have a good signal just to becarefull of who is around you. and try to be considerate of them.  and i try to do that but i'm sure like roy said i have took out some weaker stations when i have been on. to me it is just how it is and figure out a way to deal with it. or move where it is not so busy. i love the business of the am window. i dont want to call cq for 30 minutes but you have to take the good with the bad. that is just my take on it. but i am new to ham radio and dont know cw. so take it with a grain of salt.


and hope to hear you on john. we miss ya man. hahha

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Regardless of the nature of the complaint against other AM operators, I see no point in getting on a high profile general-interest amateur radio forum to whine about it.

Not to diminish the importance of the matter at hand, but posting all three links here has done nothing to cure the problem and only helped raise the visibility and number of youtube views. We all know that 'fone is watched by numerous SSB troublemakers who have responded with jamming, or set up shop in places they'd not normally appear, when specific times and frequencies were posted in the past.

The youtube approach for airing complaints is no different than posting on QRZ or here. It's not a solution, merely a symptom of more AMers and hams in general choosing the internet for their communications and would appear to be more about being seen('heard') than finding solutions.

Interference caused by poor operating practices are a concern for all of us, but dealing with the specifics in online forums invites the attention we supposedly don't want. You can't object to folks airing their dirty laundry online, then turn around and air their dirty laundry online for them. If it's truly a concern, contact them directly. It's easy enough to mention 'a group of AMers' in the south, northeast or whatever else. I give Darrell and Jim credit for their attempts to deal with the problems offline. I'm not sure how asking online if anyone has contacted them trumps contacting them personally to ask if they're aware of the problem.

There's a good technical discussion to be had in this thread without repeating or otherwise including the issues that bring bad PR through higher visibility. If that's really a concern.

[Jim, W5JO]

well i will say this. you may feel that people do not take your advise on problems you see with their station. i also notice that some people do not take the common advise of if your a 5kc off of a 40 over signal what do you think is going to happen. 

This is not a case of "my advice".  It is a case of misoperation, nothing more.  It is a case of not following good engineering practice.  Many people do but some of these guys don't.  That is the rub.  You may not have trouble but you may not be affected as others closer in are.  I hear stations all the time with the same power level at about the same distance, Roy, KB5MD and Mason K5YHX, that do not splatter over the signals of S-8 at my location that are on 3.885.  Now if they can do that, why can't the offenders?

[K5IIA]

yea i dont know man. my little point all i was trying to make was there are big signals on 75m. and we are all to close. yes some stations are wider then others and that is something that will always be. trying to change someone that will not change is simple to figure out. trying to get someone to understand that it is just part of it and not to let it bother them is just as hard to get across to people. its the same thing. ssb overmodulates and causes interfearance and so does a.m. signals. i see it everyday. i just move over enough or wait for a break in the action.

maybe after a few years it will bother me to. i dont know.

i'm just glad that its hard to put up a good antenna on 80m and usualy by the time someoen does there station is pretty clean and they practice good operating etiquette.

[k4kyv]

Not to diminish the importance of the matter at hand, but posting all three links here has done nothing to cure the problem and only helped raise the visibility and number of youtube views. We all know that 'fone is watched by numerous SSB troublemakers who have responded with jamming, or set up shop in places they'd not normally appear, when specific times and frequencies were posted in the past.

Maybe true, but I'd say the number of non-AMers and SSB troublemakers checking out links posted on this forum is minuscule compared to those seeing entire threads openly posted on QRZ.com and eHam. As for visibility on YouTube, this or anything else would have to be advertised elsewhere or you would have to do a search or stumble across it accidentally to find it, since it only amounted to a half-dozen or so out of jillions of YouTube videos posted every day. I suspect most AMers, including myself, were completely oblivious to this whole issue. I found out about it only when working someone on 75 in the wee hours of the other morning, who asked me if I knew what the hell was going on; he made it sound like a big deal. I don't see any reason for us to try to keep things like this hush-hush or under wraps from each other, whether over the air or on these forums; it would be in our interest for members of the AM community to be aware of what is going on. Those who would make it their mission to cause trouble would already be doing everything they could propagate it throughout the mainstream amateur radio community, regardless.

Regarding "splatter" and wide signals, remember that if your spurious emissions are 40 dB down, which last time I read the rules falls within the FCC specs of "good engineering practice", but your signal is coming in on someone's receiver 40 dB over S9, your garbage is still going to be at least S9 on that receiver, and that's only under the assumption that said receiver has a perfectly linear front end immune from cross-modulation and overload. On a typical Hammy Hambone receiver or transceiver, it's probably going to be much worse.

[WD8BIL]

Regarding "splatter" and wide signals, remember that if your spurious emissions are 40 dB down, which last time I read the rules falls within the FCC specs of "good engineering practice", but your signal is coming in on someone's receiver 40 dB over S9, your garbage is still going to be at least S9 on that receiver, and that's only under the assumption that said receiver has a perfectly linear front end immune from cross-modulation and overload. On a typical Hammy Hambone receiver or transceiver, it's probably going to be much worse.

My guess is, Don, this is what happens in most cases. I know my Drake R4A's second mixer starts producing IMDs when a signal reads better than s9+30. I've looked at local strong signals on the Spectrum Analyzer, Agilent 7404A, that were clean with 5kHz response down 40db+ and the Drake made it appear they were splattering. Now ifn I were to call them out on it I'd be dead wrong.

That's not to say ALL matters are such. By the same token I see 20+ signals, both AM and SSB, that are truly 40kHz wide.

[K1JJ]

Having an SDR video done of our own signal is really are a good idea. Ya know how they recommend that men over fifty get a periodic colonoscopy test?  Well, same thing applies to rigs - we hams should get an SDR receiver test for our rigs at least once a year - especially when they are first built or acquired.

We need to find a ham who has a good SDR receiver and knows how to use it. Have him make a video. There's many out there these days. Be sure he is at least 10 miles away (or has a good attenuator) and can normalize our signal to S9+30 or so to see the weaker artifacts.   Look closely at the db down from the peak and the bandwidth while talking. Speech is a good way to generate the many combinations of IMD present.

We need to do it on the air so that the antennas are involved as well as simulating real rig conditions.  This includes RF in the audio, if present, which could cause splatter problems.


SSB:
 
I had some tests done a few years ago. Here is a sample done by SDR-expert Rob, W1AEX. It was done within a week after I built Dr. Love, my homebrew 20-75M linear amplifier. It was done on ssb, a great mode for linear amp tests and at full power output. Blow the screen up to full and look carefully at the 5kc horizontal marks and the 10db vertical marks.  Also notice how the signal drops off at the edges as it is tuned across. This is running audio limited to 3.0 khz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkty-gwPXLA&feature=related


AM:

Here's Rob's test on my homebrew 4-1000A, plate modulated by a pair. Look closely at the bandwidth (5kc marks) and the db down from the peaks.  This was running audio limited to 5-6 khz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zd_NOIiSFo


Another solution is to get our own SDR receiver and keep it running in the receive mode. I've done this with my own system here. There are times when I switch rigs, like to the class E rig, and find I have the audio cranked up too high. This will show up immediately on the SDR as excessive bandwidth but NOT on the scope or audio monitor unless you have exceptional sensing abilities. This is because we may be limiting the audio negative peaks, but exceeding the capability of the modulator or final's ability to produce higher audio peaks. IMD can be sneaky in that non-linear operation is hard to detect except for seeing the end result in bandwidth.

The best part about checking our rigs is the confidence we get when plopping down near another QSO. We know exactly how to run our rig so that it does not cause excessive side chatter to our neighbors.  In contrast, if we operate blindly, the only way to know is to unkey and see if they are complaining about us down the band...

T

[DMOD]

These guys operate mostly on 3.890 and I like to ocassionally talk to Jim, W0NKL or Ted, Ex-KC3OL, or Mike, K0ARA all on 3.885.  When the bunch is on 90 that is impossible so I don't work that part of the band any more and I live more than 100 miles from the people who are splattering.

Is this a receiver selectivity problem? My current AM receiver is so wide I cannot work say 3.880 if the east coast guys are running on 3.875. My QSO's have to have at least 10 khz separation from an adjoing QSO, but it's not the transmitters, but rather my receiver bandwidth and proximities to stations.

Phil - AC0OB

[W0BTU]

There's a particular guy in Maine that is the reason that I've never been on 3885 phone. His carrier is 20 over 9 on my Beverage here in SW Missouri. I simply cannot fathom how anyone could have a signal as wide as he does. About every time I think about joining the AM group around that freq, he comes on and wipes out 75 meters for well over 30 KHz. (And no, it's not receiver overload).

I discussed this with another guy, and it turns out that yes, he's been told but refuses to do anything. I don't know if he's one of the guys being discussed in this thread or not.

[WA5VGO]

When a signal is only of modest strength, you switch in a 500 cycle filter, and you hear spitting 15 kc away, it's not a receiver problem.

A major problem around here is guys that have no idea what their doing try to run "linear" amplifiers on am. They want to tune it just like they do on ssb-turn all the knobs for maximum output and let it rip. If you tell them their splattering they tell you your wrong. If you try to explain how they should tune the amplifier, they say your crazy. You wouldn't believe how many guys are trying to drive four 811A's with a 100 watt transmitter. You can't convince them it's a wash if they tune it properly. It's hopeless.

73,
Darrell, WA5VGO

[W0BTU]

Oh, it's certainly more than 15 KHz away! I have some notes somewhere, but if I recall he was at least 37 KHz wide.

And for the record, his bandwidth did not decrease even after we switched in >20 dB of attenuation which reduced his carrier below S9.

[WD8BIL]

When a signal is only of modest strength, you switch in a 500 cycle filter, and you hear spitting 15 kc away, it's not a receiver problem.

That's not entirely true, Darrell. If the signal you're tuning across is sufficiently strong enough to create IMD products in your receiver they will sow up thru any filter 15kHz away.
That example is similar to the guy that told be my carrier was 4 kHz wide. 

[Jim, W5JO]

When a signal is only of modest strength, you switch in a 500 cycle filter, and you hear spitting 15 kc away, it's not a receiver problem.

That's not entirely true, Darrell. If the signal you're tuning across is sufficiently strong enough to create IMD products in your receiver they will sow up thru any filter 15kHz away.
That example is similar to the guy that told be my carrier was 4 kHz wide. 

That is the reason I use an attenuator Bud.

[flintstone mop]

I have been following this thread and looking at the YouTube vids. And I wonder how we can analyze what is going on in the TX to make it so dam bad??
Wouldn't there be any overloads if the final is not tuned properly or the final not neutralized if using triodes??? On this 80M freq. Many BC TX's don't like 80M or 40 because of the longer wires in the harnesses, etc.
Would this splatter be caused from excessive modulation?? How would the TX sustain this type of operation without damage to the mod transformer?? Would the overloads be bypassed to allow this misuse??
The panadapter display, looks like a lot of audio energy in the mid to high freqs.
The basic audio sounds unusually clear through on YouTube. Any sibilance (S and H) drives the TX bonkers. Creating wideband audio.
But knowing CB technology they like to see the meters on anything pegging and everything set for max.
Oh well
Fred

[k4kyv]

Many BC TX's don't like 80M or 40 because of the longer wires in the harnesses, etc.

In my Gates BC1-T, the rf lead from the shielded oscillator/buffer box to the grids of the parallel 807 driver stage was an unshielded wire embedding in the wiring harness along with the DC, audio and filament lines.  That caused all kinds of squirreliness even on 160m.  I replaced that wire with a BNC connector, and the 807 grids are now fed with a short piece of RG-59.  That made the 807 stage a lot more stable; 807s are squirrely enough under the best of conditions.

The BTA-1R I parted out had some long leads between components in the output stage. Like 18" or more, and unshielded to boot.  Looks like they just set the components on the chassis where they saw fit, and used whatever length of wire it took to connect them into the circuit, more like the type of construction one would use for an audio amplifier. That's probably OK for the AM broadcast band, but by the time you get to the amateur frequencies, even 160m, those lead lengths are a little excessive, and could contribute to all kinds of parasitics that could make the signal trashy.  If you are going to use one of those transmitters on anything higher than 2 mc/s, you are probably better off completely stripping the rf section, and starting over from scratch using the same tubes and as many of the original components as possible, but using a more typical layout like that seen in homebrew transmitter design.

[K5UJ]

All these guys with bc rigs have to do if they want to be LOUD is get themselves some kind of AM broadcast peak limiter.  An old CRL PMC model, inovonics 222, BL Modulimiter, DAP310, Texar...any of those will work.   Some show up on eBay; I've seen them at fests...get it set up right as the last thing before the rig and drive it with a 528 voice processor or some other mic box and any of them will be loud without clipping and therefore, a lot cleaner. 

[KB2WIG]

SplatterMaster ----  I'm begining to like the name.... ..

klc

[Jim, W5JO]

I have been following this thread and looking at the YouTube vids. And I wonder how we can analyze what is going on in the TX to make it so dam bad??Fred

Fred whoever posted this is using a PRO 1,2 or 3 with only  6 db attenuation.  They are so close to Robert that they probably could remove the antenna and still have gross overload. 

[w1vtp]

<snip>

Another solution is to get our own SDR receiver and keep it running in the receive mode. I've done this with my own system here. There are times when I switch rigs, like to the class E rig, and find I have the audio cranked up too high. This will show up immediately on the SDR as excessive bandwidth but NOT on the scope or audio monitor unless you have exceptional sensing abilities. This is because we may be limiting the audio negative peaks, but exceeding the capability of the modulator or final's ability to produce higher audio peaks. IMD can be sneaky in that non-linear operation is hard to detect except for seeing the end result in bandwidth.

The best part about checking our rigs is the confidence we get when plopping down near another QSO. We know exactly how to run our rig so that it does not cause excessive side chatter to our neighbors.  In contrast, if we operate blindly, the only way to know is to unkey and see if they are complaining about us down the band...

T

Tom

I use a Bird 4273 sampler (rated at 5 KW) in conjunction with  a combination of Weinschel power attenuators directly connected to my Flex 1500 for precisely this type of test.  I then absolutely know what my splatter factor is.

I took my 1500 to demonstrate it to a friend who has a modest lab and we both were impressed to see that the power calibration of that little animal is very accurate.  It truly does serve as a spectrum analyzer when properly hooked up.  The key to any of these type of checks to is to have a good sampler and attenuate the signal down to a level that your instrument can handle without overload.

After looking at some representations of "splatter masters," I'm convinced that it is not a simple matter of overmodulation but rather parasitics.  One of the representations was viewed on an Agilent spectrum analyzer and the operator was careful to set the input attenuator to avoid overload, so the splatter was real in my view. Be sure to expand the operator's commends below the screen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si6WcSvO-Sg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=AVMkP7gHJII&feature=endscreen

Keeping our transmitters operating with good engineering practice make sense not only from a "good neighbor" point of view but from an economic point of view - less blowing up of mod irons

Al

[KA3EKH]

That’s the problem! It's not people who run too much audio or don’t know or care about what they're doing; it’s the proliferation of SDR out there. Stomp out SDR radios and nobody will notice, well maybe. I started in Ham radio back when everything was already SSB and have to wonder what it must have been like back in the forties, fifties and sixties when everyone ran AM? Would think that splatter was everywhere along with heterodynes and the like. I kind of like to listen to 7.290 and have been amazed by the amounts of heterodynes form other stations on frequency at times. Have only heard this once or twice on 1.885 and I am just not proficient enough operator to work eighty so I avoid that band. But have to wonder if things were not a lot worse back in the old days? Maybe because the radios and things like SDR are so much better we notice this stuff more?