Splattermaster

[k4kyv]

Anybody know what instigated this?

http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=DeyXwdJQurU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=sZ3vfTsHmC0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.be/watch?v=xnC1lUwhhQQ&feature=related

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Looks like someone venting Passive/Aggressive.  Provides "evidence" for his case, but no data other than the vid and the rant.  No identifying information (call sign?) anywhere either.   Did have some good stuff on the Texoma AM Traders net though and some RFI vids on his site.  From some of the other vids, I think it may be a member here (former?).

[WA5VGO]

I'm not going to zero in on any individulals, but you guys have no idea what kind of a mess we have down here in the 75 meter am window. You can't operate with 15 kc of many of these guys. We've got people trying to drive linear amplifiers running three of 811A's with 100 watt rigs. We've got people running Heathkit Warriers driven by 100 watt transmitters trying to run 400 watts of carrier. We've got out of control broadcast transmitters. One of the worst offenders runs a class E rig. These people have no idea what they're doing and resent anyone that tries to tell them. I gave up. You won't find me on 75 meters anymore. Any by the way-that's not my video.
Darrell, WA5VGO

[Jim, W5JO]

The type of thing presented in the video has been an ongoing problem for a very long time.  Whoever posted those videos of WW9W probably lives very close to him.  Not to minimize anything but there is a guy in the same neighborhood that has been trying for year to get the WW9W to operate with lower poser to no avail.  He operates SSB exclusively and his "favorite" frequency is about 3.860 or so.

Darrell just posted the delimma here.  He and I have complained for years about several of them and they just laugh.  I have taken the step of contacting the ARRL OO but that hasn't helped.  There are several technical nincompoops in this part of the word and this is part of the reason I don't operate in that part of the band very much either.  You will find me there talking to an old friend before 6 PM and that is it.  My disclaimer to the video is I don't own a  video camera.

[K1JJ]

That third video tells it all.   The transmitter appears to have high frequency audio parasitics OR has some arcing going on somewhere between the modulator/final and the antenna.  To cover +- 100kc with that raspy side splatter is indicative of one or both of these problems. (Or caused by severe receiver overload if the receiver is located down the block and using a full antenna without attenuator - as mentioned later in this thread)

If it's really the transmitter, it can be cured with some careful troubleshooting.

I remember a time when I was in the 75 DX window working Europe.  Suddenly several guys broke in and said they could hear me up 35kc++.  I happened to look out the window and saw flashing in the sky as I talked. An antenna relay up on the tower was arcing causing a spark-gap transmitter effect...  Nasty stuff.   I fixed it and everything went back to normal.


The bottom line is this AMer must be willing to admit there is a problem and start the troubleshooting process. Otherwise it will just continue in denial.  Most any well-working BC transmitter can be set up to run reasonably clean audio at +- 5kc... or it would not have passed FCC specs in the first place.


Heck, if I lived closer, I'd be more than happy to offer my skills to help him fix it.

T

[W2VW]

Wonder if these guys have even been to Scranton.

[k4kyv]

There was a related thread recently on another well-known ham radio forum. AMers complaining about splatter from other AMers.  Up to now, it has usually been slopbucketeers complaining about AMers. Of course, tune round the bands a little and you will hear slopbucketeers complaining about other slopbucketeers as well.

It may well be the case that some of the AM transmitters are not being operated according to good engineering practice, but sometimes it IS the receiver, or a personal vendetta between two operators. I have often been accused of being "40 kc/s wide" when I could not hear my own signal right in the shack on another receiver more than about 7 kc/s away from the carrier, and even less when I had the narrow low-pass filter that I use for congested conditions in line.

Once years ago I was told my signal was "buckshotting"; turned out I had a parasitic oscillation in the class-B modulator.  Cured it with a 100-ohm resistor in series with each modulator tube plate lead, right at the plate cap.  I take most such reports with a grain of salt, but usually do check out my signal on my own receiver to see if anything appears out of the ordinary.

But what concerns me is that some AMers are now openly airing dirty laundry on a public forum like YouTube, or on general amateur radio forums like Eham and QRZ.com.  This is inviting, even instigating, another round of anti-AM sentiment in the greater ham community, even to the point of a revival of petitions and docket proposals to eliminate AM or impose specific bandwidth limits. Those anti-AM attitudes seem to have somewhat dissipated in recent years, and the last thing we need is to have someone actively trying to revive them. Wouldn't it better to post such complaints on this and other AM-related bulletin boards and e-mail reflectors, where the alleged offenders, and not the greater amateur community, would be the first to hear them?

I do hear a lot of AMers on the air describe running impossible power levels from linear amplifiers and driving them with rigs running only 3 dB or so less power than the linear is claimed to be putting out. Sometimes there appears to be a complete lack of understanding about headroom requirements with low-level modulation.  Another one of my pet gripes is operating roundtables (or fast break-in) with stations scattered up and down the band instead of everyone zero-beat with each other.  This often makes it impossible or impractical to receive with the synchronous detector, and spreading about increases the over all total channel space occupied by a QSO.

OTOH, off-frequency operation may be due to the fact that some stations are running crystal control.  And sometimes with deliberate SSB interference, the "exit stage left" tactic is effective.

Regardless of the nature of the complaint against other AM operators, I see no point in getting on a high profile general-interest amateur radio forum to whine about it.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Maybe people just need to tell this person (and others) that they have a technical problem?

It's not like telling someone that they have bad breath...Or is it?

If several people were to tell me that I was 100 KC wide, I'd be all over it, what an embarrassment.

Has anyone told the supposed offender they have a problem rather than posting the videos? Has he responded or ignored it? Has he tried to fix it?

[Jim, W5JO]

These people have been told repeatedly about the problem and it seems to make them ignore the complaints or worse, turn up the power or audio.  It is not as if several responsible hams haven't tried.  It is bad enough that I won't even talk to most of them.

One of them bought a couple of plug in SS replacements for 866s then wanted to return them because they wouldn't work.  Turns out he removed the jumper across pin 4 of both sockets and was getting output on only one of them.  That is the kind of mentality we are dealing with.

The video is from a guy within a city block of the station presented.  The receiver is overloaded badly, but the operator of the AM station is driving it much too hard and there is no telling if there is a problem in the transmitter or not.  I have dsicussed problems like this at a couple of hamfest and the operators just look the other way and try to make the "monkey swing" as they say.

[W2PFY]

That thread on QRZ has been locked. I guess they saw it was going nowhere and had enough?

I was surprised that toward the end, there was some positive input on the thread where some people wanted more information regarding AM.

I think the topic is too hot right now to start a positive thread to try to reach others who have an interest. 

[kb3ouk]

That thread on QRZ has been locked. I guess they saw it was going nowhere and had enough?

look who started the whole thread. that may explain some things.

[DMOD]

But what concerns me is that some AMers are now openly airing dirty laundry on a public forum like YouTube, or on general amateur radio forums like Eham and QRZ.com.  This is inviting, even instigating, another round of anti-AM sentiment in the greater ham community, even to the point of a revival of petitions and docket proposals to eliminate AM or impose specific bandwidth limits. Those anti-AM attitudes seem to have somewhat dissipated in recent years, and the last thing we need is to have someone actively trying to revive them. Wouldn't it better to post such complaints on this and other AM-related bulletin boards and e-mail reflectors, where the alleged offenders, and not the greater amateur community, would be the first to hear them?

I do hear a lot of AMers on the air describe running impossible power levels from linear amplifiers and driving them with rigs running only 3 dB or so less power than the linear is claimed to be putting out. Sometimes there appears to be a complete lack of understanding about headroom requirements with low-level modulation.  Another one of my pet gripes is operating roundtables (or fast break-in) with stations scattered up and down the band instead of everyone zero-beat with each other.  This often makes it impossible or impractical to receive with the synchronous detector, and spreading about increases the over all total channel space occupied by a QSO.


Regardless of the nature of the complaint against other AM operators, I see no point in getting on a high profile general-interest amateur radio forum to whine about it.

Very well stated, although I don't think many people give a lot of creedance to Youtube anymore no do I think the FCC is going to be scanning YouTube for potential violators.

It's unfortunate that some people will not educate themselves about good engineering practice, but an email to the person "offending" should alert him/her to potential problems.

But like you, I don't think dirty laundry should be aired outside the family.

look who started the whole thread. that may explain some things.

True, he never did explian how he was "bullied," but decided to use that word and that forum to complain.

As an addendum, why don't these YouTube policeman go around the band and record offending SSB operators who take up +,_ 15kc spectrum by running dirty or overdriven amps and not allowing enough headroom, or those ignorantly misusing those IHY equalizers?  

Phil

[K5UJ]

I can't watch videos but wow, am I glad I can operate 160 meters.

sounds like part of the problem is more appliance ops pushing the little AM button who don't know what they're doing.

[Jim, W5JO]

I can't watch videos but wow, am I glad I can operate 160 meters.

sounds like part of the problem is more appliance ops pushing the little AM button who don't know what they're doing.

Rob, we are talking BC transmitters and BC 610 type of stuff.

[k4kyv]

I don't think many people give a lot of credence to Youtube anymore no do I think the FCC is going to be scanning YouTube for potential violators.

I don't think that would be a likely problem.  More like re-awakening the smouldering anti-AM sentiment that still exists in obscure spots within the mainstream amateur community.

Rob, we are talking BC transmitters and BC 610 type of stuff.

So, exactly what do you think those guys are doing wrong?  I hear many BC-610s and converted broadcast rigs on the air that put out clean signals.  And in both the QRZ thread and in at least one of the YouTube videos, "Class E" operators are also cited as offenders.

Usually, it is not so much the frequency response of the audio admitted to the modulator that causes "splatter", as it is spurious distortion products. If my transmitter were putting out spurious trash, I would want to be told about it, and would then make an effort to correct the problem.

[The Slab Bacon]

He seems to have it in for Robert in particular? ? ? Robert does have kind of a raspy voice with a lot of highs in it. It has been a few years since I worked him, but, IIRC his voice if he is not running any processing and an improperly adjusted transmitter could cause some serious splatter.

I remember one night, someone from here was running a '1-T and putting out "artifacts" all over the band untill I called him on the telephone to tell him. He made a few quick tweaks and all was well.

Maybe someone should call Robert and let him know about all of this so he can correct it before it festers too badly.  

But then the one who is doing all of the pissing and moaning might just be close enough to him to get a massive case of front end/IF overload?
But he isn't all that strong up here.

[Jim, W5JO]

So, exactly what do you think those guys are doing wrong?  I hear many BC-610s and converted broadcast rigs on the air that put out clean signals.  And in both the QRZ thread and in at least one of the YouTube videos, "Class E" operators are also cited as offenders.

Usually, it is not so much the frequency response of the audio admitted to the modulator that causes "splatter", as it is spurious distortion products. If my transmitter were putting out spurious trash, I would want to be told about it, and would then make an effort to correct the problem.

I washed my hands of this bunch a long time ago so I can't tell you Don.  I only know that if you were located where I am you would pitch a bitch about the poor quality signals.  I repeat, I have told all of them about their problems and they ignore anyone who says such.  From their point, they say the listening station doesn't know what they are doing.

Slab, you must have missed the part where I said the front end of the receiver is overloaded.  But since I am 120 miles away and have problems, it isn't all the complainer's receiver.

Guys there is no defending the operation of several of these guys.  They are not operating properly and could have mistuned equipment, have equipment with troubles or who knows.  They are a nuisance here and blank out any chance I have of talking to the MoKan group on 85 or the group on 75 in CO, Ne, and WY.

[Opcom]

If the goal is to  prevent splatter, then a guy that owns such an expensive transmitter as a BC rig or BC-610 ought to make the investment in a bandscope setup. Its not a question of audio bandwidth, only splatter.

[W2PFY]

I washed my hands of this bunch a long time ago so I can't tell you Don.  I only know that if you were located where I am you would pitch a bitch about the poor quality signals.  I repeat, I have told all of them about their problems and they ignore anyone who says such.  From their point, they say the listening station doesn't know what they are doing.

This may be one instance where the FCC should be brought in. I hate to be a rat but sometimes you need to make a move when all else fails!

[KX5JT]

If the goal is to  prevent splatter, then a guy that owns such an expensive transmitter as a BC rig or BC-610 ought to make the investment in a bandscope setup. Its not a question of audio bandwidth, only splatter.

I have visited a ham that was running a converted collins v20 and saw for myself huge peaks on his scope with NASTY FLAT WHITE LINES on the negative peaks.  Now I personally like the fella and he seemed very knowlegable about radio and has been a ham since before I was born.  I think these guys KNOW but just don't care.  It's a selfish philosophy.  They want to be LOUD.  It probably has to do with the 3.878 and 3.892 ssb groups that have been "at war" with AMers.  So they turn everything up and ignore the sidewinders.  Not everyone of the 5 land AMers are like this of course and quite a few do take a lot of pride in a clean strong signal.  I haven't been on 75 AM in over a year and I really miss it, but I will likely stay down below 3.700 when I return, except maybe for some early mornings when the signals are strong from coast to coast and the operators are more cognizant of clean operation.

[K5IIA]

well shoot i  operate down here and cant think of anything to piss or moan about. i hope i'm not one of the bad guys hahhaha

[KX5JT]

Nah Brandon, you're good to go.  You run a good clean signal.  It's potent and of course so some receivers might have some selectivity issues with it a little lol but that's not your fault.

[k4kyv]

This may be one instance where the FCC should be brought in. I hate to be a rat but sometimes you need to make a move when all else fails!

That's the last thing we need. Seek out FeeCee intervention, and you just might get what you asked for, but not like what you get.

I have visited a ham that was running a converted collins v20 and saw for myself huge peaks on his scope with NASTY FLAT WHITE LINES on the negative peaks.  Now I personally like the fella and he seemed very knowlegable about radio and has been a ham since before I was born.  I think these guys KNOW but just don't care.  It's a selfish philosophy.  They want to be LOUD.  It probably has to do with the 3.878 and 3.892 ssb groups that have been "at war" with AMers.  So they turn everything up and ignore the sidewinders.

There are better and more effective ways to be "loud" than brute-force overmodulation.  Besides, that's a good way to blow a modulation transformer.

I haven't been on 75 AM in over a year and I really miss it, but I will likely stay down below 3.700 when I return, except maybe for some early mornings when the signals are strong from coast to coast and the operators are more cognizant of clean operation.

John, you have been conspicuous by your absence.  C'mon down to the vicinity of 3700 and below. There's been some good AM activity down there lately. We need more AM presence in other parts of the band.

[KX5JT]

Thanks Don.  That gives me more incentive to get something up in the air for 80 meters... a new girlfriend sorta waylayed my priorities (as they tend to do)... I've been working some 10 meters AM during the afternoons.  I'll get back on track soon! I'm moving to dayshift here at work, in fact this is my last "night",  so we'll see how that affects my radio schedule.

[flintstone mop]

The type of thing presented in the video has been an ongoing problem for a very long time.  Whoever posted those videos of WW9W probably lives very close to him.  Not to minimize anything but there is a guy in the same neighborhood that has been trying for year to get the WW9W to operate with lower poser to no avail.  He operates SSB exclusively and his "favorite" frequency is about 3.860 or so.

Darrell just posted the delimma here.  He and I have complained for years about several of them and they just laugh.  I have taken the step of contacting the ARRL OO but that hasn't helped.  There are several technical nincompoops in this part of the word and this is part of the reason I don't operate in that part of the band very much either.  You will find me there talking to an old friend before 6 PM and that is it.  My disclaimer to the video is I don't own a  video camera.

That's the sad part!!! The OO is a bunch of SH%T...They go for the easy stuff.
"You didn't identify in the 10 minute window" You were 1 kc into the Extra Class band". The OO 's probably do not understand the technical part of getting a radio signal on the air. Non-RF types. Or Appliance operators.
"She's a doin" kinda sounds like one of them good ole boys down South with a big mouth and that CB thinking......What is used to be with overmodulated wide audio in the CB channels.
Maybe the mod transformer will open up.........he probably has bypassed any overmod / over current protection in the TX and it will eventually cave in to the abuse.

The YouTuber posting must live very very close to see all that is going on. It could be his radio is overloaded........It's an expensive rig with a panadapter, and susceptible to overload.........Any one here monitor WW9W???