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AJ1G
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« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2011, 01:41:44 PM »

Thanks for the info Bacon....made a few more calls to "qualified local Generac technicians" - have gotten nothing specific from them.  None have specific info on my machine.  Some of course want me to bring it in to them to look at, but I have no confidence they will do anything but easter-egg the problem by replacing modules on my nickel.  One guy said he was not absolutely certain but that he thought my VR and governor were non-adjustable.  WTF?  If it's running out of spec, how do you bring it in then?
I agree that if engine speed is high, voltage could also be high.  From the schematic, my machine has an electronic governor for speed control that controls the throttle, and a voltage regulator that controls output voltage by adjusting field excitation.  There's got to be some adjustments somewhere  in there.  Had another telecon with the Generac call center and have a case number assigned to me, waiting for a call back from someone who hopefully knows his stuff.  Next call will be to their CEO if I can figure out how to get in contact with him..
Paid nearly 3K for this unit, I don't consider that throw away money....
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Chris, AJ1G
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« Reply #51 on: September 01, 2011, 02:22:53 PM »

Chris,
        throw a frequency counter on the output and see what the output frequency actually is. That might tell the whole tale! And generally the engine speed governor on most small and industrial engines is mechanical. It may have a load sensor and an electronic "Idler" that cuts back on the engine speed when it senses there is no load.
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« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2011, 03:23:12 PM »

Chris,
I had the same problem with my Generac. It's 7 years old. I received it that way when I purchased it.  I'm sure it didn't come from Generac that way but determined that it was a result of shipping.  It was shipped on it's side so the engine and gen head weren't suspended normally causing the small sense cable going into the electronics to become disconnected. I had check the output voltage on both phases prior to connecting anything just to be sure it was good to go. Glad I did.

Because the unit was shipped on its side and the motor and gen head are mounted on rubber the cable was disconnected from the voltage control circuit. The wire harness was a bit short.  Plugged it back in, put it back together, tested and both phases were normal.  Also noticed on the voltage controller that the voltage was adjustable.  I bumped the output up to 120V from about 110 to aid the well pump.  One other thing I did was build a voltage meter panel at the hook up so I could check both phases before throwing the transfer switch.  

OK on the Christmas lights. Actually, one of those automated Christmas light displays would be more fitting Grin
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Bob
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« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2011, 04:58:34 PM »

Bob,
My brother is still out, Columbia off RT66
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AJ1G
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« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2011, 06:25:14 PM »

Bob -

Thanks for that heads up!  I finally got through to a real engineer or tech rep at Generac and he told me where the VR adjust pot is on my machine - inside the control panel on the VR module along with a LED VR status indicator.  Just need to walk it down a tad with the machine shut down, run it and see what you get... Repeat as necessary...I will definitely look for the disconnected sensor cable you described - If I find the same thing they will be getting soem feedback from me for sure. Also going to hang my HP counter on the output to check the speed.  The tech told me its unlikey that the speed is off - speed is not adjustable, it should be reasonably  close to 60 Hz /3600 RPM unless there are mechanical problems.  Going to work on it tonight - latest projected track for TS Katia is a little unsettling.  Took a big jump to the west although it hopefully it will still recurve and stay well offshore.
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Chris, AJ1G
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« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2011, 08:24:54 PM »

Chris,
I wish you the best of luck on your fix.  Hopefully it is something straight forward like mine.  If I remember right the controller is fairly simple so troubleshooting to component level shouldn't be too bad assuming the controllers are similar.  I checked the speed on mine both times when I had the issue.  RPM was 3600 and freq was 60cycle.  Voltage was just way off.

Frank,
We're still out however, CL and P is working its way down Rt16.  They have some work ahead of them though.  My circuit is trash.  I don't think we'll see power for another day or 2.  I was hoping we'd see utility power today but I was disappointed.  Had to refuel the gas cans again. 

FWIW, I started running 89 octane in my generator.  I noticed that the muffler no longer glows dull red in the dark plus it seems a bit quieter.  Might be something to consider.
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Bob
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« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2011, 09:09:40 PM »

Bob,
My cousin emailed and said RT156 is up so it is something in the neighborhood.
There are many western union splices older than me. Some are even on the secondary side. I only have them on the primary feed in my circuit. Pole pig and secondary fairly new.
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AJ1G
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« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2011, 01:51:20 AM »

Well,its more than just an out of adjustment trim pot.  Something appears to be whacked in the VR module.  The voltage adjust pot is a cheesy little plastic trim pot floating on the surface of a mass of epoxy potting material on the front of the module.  When I first started trying to bring the voltage down from an indicated 150V no load the pot had no affect over its full range of travel. With the pot set at the minimum voltage setting, I was able to get it to regulate at about 86V by first dropping the machine speed and voltage down with the no load low speed idle switch.  At no load idle mode, was seeing about 60 volts out.  Shutting off the no load idle brought voltage up to 86.  Tried slowly bringing up the voltage with the trim pot - could get up to about 100 V, but then voltage would suddenly jump up to 150 and hang in there even after I turned the pot back down to minimum.  Going back into no load idle mode would then bring voltage back down to 60 and then if the pot was at minimum, turning off the no load idle would bring voltage back up to 86.  But every attempt to bring the voltage up over 100 ran into the jump up to 150.  My first guess is tbat the pot is crapped out.  Got the exact same results when I ran with a heavy load (clothes dryer). Maybe i can dig the wiring to the pot out of the epoxy and replace the piece of crap Generac used with a a quality trimmer, or a pot I can mount on the front panel so I can adjust it directly from there.  I can't see how that little POS pot could hold a setting in a high vibration environment like a generator.

Frequency in normal mode is rock steady at 60 Hz regardless of load as read by my HP counter fed with a 6V filament transformer powered from the genny output.  Drops to about 40 Hz in no load idle mode.  No indication of binding or lost motion in the governor servomotor actuator.

Will be an interesting call to Generac in the morning - if the VR module has indeed failed, it did so after less than 10 hours of operation.  Golng to try to get them to send me a new VR module gratis, but not optimistic since the unit is now over 3 years old on a 2 year warranty.
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Chris, AJ1G
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« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2011, 08:41:16 AM »

Chris,
        Stories like this make me so glad my genny is as old as it is! ! !  It is 64 years old! It is a 1948 U.S. Power and light unit with an old Hercules BXB 2 cyl water cooled engine. Water cooled with full pressure lubrication, a 4-pole alternator and a governed speed of 1800 RPM @ full load It will most likely still be running when I no longer am! The nicest thing about it is that all is controlled by the engines governor and it has NO electronic controls.

I keep debating about replacing it with something more modern, but stories like this really make me scratch my head  Huh It has been faithful to me for over 30 years.
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« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2011, 09:08:24 AM »

I had a couple Generac generators and they were pure crap.  The engines were undersized and had to run at 3600 RPM as opposed to every other I have that runs at 1800 RPM, they had no block heaters so they would not start in the cold and every time we transfer to them they did not work. Replaced one with a 25 kW Kato and the other with a 35 kW Onan and have no problems with them. I have a total of about a half dozen Onan and Kato ranging from 25 to 150 kW at different transmitter sites and had never had any experience of such poor quality systems as the two Generac systems that I had. Those two systems were purchased back in the early nineties when Generac first appeared and would hope the systems they produced after that were better quality but myself the first thing I look at today when purchasing a generator is if it runs at 1800 or 3600 RPM, if it runs at 3600 that’s a reason for me not to buy it. Think of you car engine and how well it runs at 1800 verses 3600 RPM
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2011, 09:13:37 AM »

Not to mention how much longer it will last at 1800 RPM vs 3600..................
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WA3VJB
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« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2011, 09:30:12 AM »

Think of you car engine and how well it runs at 1800 verses 3600 RPM

I dunno, man, my Mazda runs best around 4500rpm, top of 4th?
YEHA !
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K1JJ
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« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2011, 10:27:02 AM »

Glad to see everyone made it thru FB, more or less.

Back on the web for first time since the storm. Still no power - running on generator a few hours a day only.  It turns out this is the only house on the street without power now.  There is 3-phase all the way up the street and stops 100 yards away.  Only the center lead and ground runs here and is dead. The outside leads are hot and the other houses are tapped on.   The bastards left the center lead hanging and took off. Who knows when they will return.

Winds were about 75-80mph up on the tower tops from the look of the element bending during the storm. Antenna damage was almost nil. Two Yagis twisted a few degrees in their mounts - no problem. One dipole wire snapped, but repaired easily the next day.  So all set here.

We have found out that the CT Power Co has maybe 1/2 the repair crews as other states. Taking too long. They will have hell to pay once the media works 'em over later on. 

Had a chance to study for a big exam coming up, so took it easy all week. Nice break from the computer and TV anyway... Grin

T
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« Reply #63 on: September 02, 2011, 10:31:50 AM »

Wondered when we'd here from the mountain top. Glad to hear that you're okay and made it through with minimal damage, Tom. Hopefully they will get back to restore your power soon.
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AJ1G
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« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2011, 01:05:47 PM »

We have found out that the CT Power Co has maybe 1/2 the repair crews as other states. Taking too long. They will have hell to pay once the media works 'em over later on.

I saw our First Selectman last Friday morning before the storm hit.  He said he was really worried for the power lines because  CL&P was THREE YEARS behind on their tree trimming in our town.

I wonder if the guy with thsoe big ex Desert Storm govt. surplus diesel gennies will be at Nearfest in a few weeks.  I'm ready to s***can the Generac as soon as I can.  For the near term , the VR modules are only about 75-100 bucks on the Internet...going to line one up now...
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Chris, AJ1G
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« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2011, 02:46:47 PM »

Diesel generators are never in short supply from Government Liquidators, prices run around $300 to $600 for 5 kW units but beware they are used and drained of fluids! Lots of 3 kW units with sound baffle housings been selling lately. Think the government dumps them after between one thousand and fifteen hundred hours as a matter of cost effectiveness. You have to set up a user account but you're not required to post a bid bond and can pay by PayPal, and if the lot requires an end use certificate (EUC) I found that just putting down "Ham Radio" works. This is their web link:

http://www.govliquidation.com/index.html

I have not bought generators from them but bought lots of other weird junk.

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« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2011, 08:24:09 PM »

Day 6, Day 7, I don't know. I lost count.  W1RKW is now back on utility power.  Power was restored at 645PM today.  Liz and I went out to dinner and left a dead house and came back to seeing the front light over the garage lit.  Utility and tree crews were down the road about a 1/2 mile doing work when I came home from work  I had a good feeling then and when we left for the Marlborough Tavern up by K1JJs way.  Came home to a garage light lit by non-generator power.  Right now have all the windows open. The only sound right now are the evening bugs, crickets, katydids, etc. No more drone of the thumper B&S engine or the occasional beep of the security system.  Had a good meal and drank a couple of 807s and I'm ready for a long no stress peaceful sleep. Everyone else who is powerless, I wish you get restored utility power soon. 
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Bob
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« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2011, 08:57:31 PM »

Chris,
        While looking for something else, I found this thread on an engine forum. in it there is the skizmatic for a Generac voltage regulator board, and lots of other good stuff about Generacs

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85631

                            or this

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=90
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« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2011, 09:45:45 PM »

Lots of good stuff over there on smokestack!  The regulator described is not exactly what I have, but reading the posts is a good tutorial..I like this one on how to check your genny frequency against the commerical power frequency without a frequency counter. 

Re: FAQ: How to Setup the Frequency & Voltage on a Genset
A GOOD WAY TO SET ENGINE SPEED/GENERATOR FREQUENCY.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU MUST BE CAREFUL WHEN DOING THIS OR YOU COULD END UP BEING A CRISPY CRITTER!

Since the North American power grid runs at a very accurate 60 Hz frequency, it is about the best standard you can get for checking your generator frequency.

Here's how you do it. First and -very- important, connect the neutral of the genset to the neutral of your commercial power source. Do the same with the grounds.

Now, take a couple of identical (say, 60 Watt) 120 volt light bulbs and hook them in series so you have, in effect, a 240 volt light bulb. The reason you need 240 volts worth of bulbs is that, when the generator output sine wave is exactly opposite the sine wave from the commercial power, there will be twice the line voltage across the lamps.

Now, connect one end of the series string to the 120 volt hot lead of your generator and hook the other end of the series string to the 120 volt hot lead of your commercial power. With the generator -not- running, the light bulbs should be at half brightness.

Now, start the generator. The light bulbs will vary from full on (240 volts) to full off (zero volts) at exactly the difference frequency between your generator and commercial power.

If your generator speed is close, the bulbs will flicker. To find out if you're fast or slow, nudge the governor a little fast and see if the flicker rate increases or decreases.

- If the flicker rate increases, you are running fast and need to adjust the governor a little slower until, without any other load, the lights go on and off about twice a second. This will mean that you're running at about 62 Hz.

- If the flicker rate slows down when you nudge the speed upward, you need to adjust the governor up until the lights are -very- slowly changing brightness then increase some more until the lights flicker about twice a second.

Now, if you have a way to load your generator to near full load, do so, leaving the bulbs connected. The flicker rate should be about 2 cycles -below- the 60 Hz of commercial power or about 58 Hz.

I've used this method of adjusting genset speed several times and it works well.

Take care - Elden

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Chris, AJ1G
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« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2011, 12:42:03 AM »

"Lots of good stuff over there on smokestack!  The regulator described is not exactly what I have, but reading the posts is a good tutorial..I like this one on how to check your genny frequency against the commerical power frequency without a frequency counter"

It may not be exactly the same, but it may just as well work, and it didn't look like it would be much to build................................
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« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2011, 08:12:16 AM »

I have a replacement regulator on the way from partsfortechs.com in Lebanon PA - nice folks.  I am definitely interested in a homebrew regulator that will at least allow me to adjust voltage from a front panel control - while I am at it I should add a built in voltmeter and a low voltage output to a BNC to drive a frequency counter directly.
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Chris, AJ1G
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« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2011, 08:43:56 AM »

glad you guys have power. CL&P site says we are back up. Heading south to check out stinky fridge. Two partial containers of ice cream, graded cheese that is almost full. XYL bummed because she just bought it and guess what we plan to eat later. I think there is butter on the door and barbie stuff in jars.
I might be on 494 kHz this weekend.
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« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2011, 09:08:00 AM »

Its reported that there are still about 157000 people without power in NYC and the tristate area almost a week after the hurricane.

As of yesterday there are still small pockets of power outages around my location here in Central NJ.

I expected the worst here but the only damage I had was a rope support for my horizontal loop that snapped but I restrung that fairly quickly with better rope.


Sam / KS2AM
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W1RKW
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« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2011, 10:21:32 AM »

anyone know if there is any type of maintenance required for the generator head?  I know there are brushless gen heads and probably require little to no maintenance but what about those with brushes. I think mine has brushes.

Also, one thing I noticed while on gen power, one or two lights in the house would occasionally flicker. Those were incandescent lights too.  Most other incandescents did not.  CFL exhibit no flickering.  The trusty Fluke DVM wasn't fast enough to measure any spike. And the home brewed meter panel didn't show anything either.  So don't know what's up with that.
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Bob
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« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2011, 10:44:49 AM »

I expected the worst here but the only damage I had was a rope support for my horizontal loop that snapped but I restrung that fairly quickly with better rope.

Sam / KS2AM


It's funny how hams get the most important things fixed first... Grin   I did the same thing here, even as the winds were still blowing.  

The rest can wait.

A guy from CL&P stopped by yesterday to "look" at the damage here.  I could fix it in 10 minutes if they let me climb the pole. The HV wire slipped off the insulator and is touching the ground wire.  He didn't even know what 3-phase was. Probably an office bean-counter sent out to look good.

Everyone on the street feeds off the hot outside leg - while this house is on the dead center leg. They opened the switch down the street.  I guess it makes for better QRO voltage regulation being the only one on that leg, so no complaints.

The guy had a blank look when axed when the truck would be out. I guess that means we are last on the list being the only house on the street without power. I figger by Wed-Thurs if lucky.  Sometimes we get the short lot.

T
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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed.  Easily done in DSP.

Wise Words : "I'm as old as I've ever been... and I'm as young as I'll ever be."

There's nothing like an old dog.
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