Is This the End of Hamfests & Flea Markets in Massachusetts????

[W1RC]

Hi Gang:

The future looks pretty grin for all flea markets, hamfests, etc, in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.  It appears that the MA Department of Revenue (DoR) is now enforcing an amendment to the law that changes the definition of the term “show” to read as follows: “a flea market, either indoor or outdoor, craft show, antique show, coin show, stamp show, comic book show fair and any similar show, whether held regularly or of a temporary nature at which more than one vendor displays for sale or sells tangible personal property subject to tax.”  G.L. c. 62C, § 1 as amended by St. 2010, c. 308, § 2.   Although hamfests are not specifically mentioned they will be affected if there is more than one seller selling stuff.

What does this mean?  All sellers now have to register with the DoR and collect MA State sales tax on all sales.  Read the gloomy detains here:

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=dorterminal&L=7&L0=Home&L1=Businesses&L2=Help+%26+Resources&L3=Legal+Library&L4=Technical+Information+Releases&L5=TIRs+-+By+Year(s)&L6=2010+Releases&sid=Ador&b=terminalcontent&f=dor_rul_reg_tir_tir_10_21&csid=Ador

The DoR even has a special "Show and Fair Unit" to enforce this law.  And, they don't even trust you to collect it if you are unknown to them.  You will have to put up a deposit based on the value of the items you are trying to sell.   Here's what the Act says:  "See 830 CMR 62C.66.1 as to bond requirements for transient vendors that fail to properly register."  Most amateurs will likely be considered "transient vendors"

We've seen a lot of club-hosted flea markets go away the past few years and now this latest stunt by the MA DoR will surely finish them off.  It's unfortunate that these communities will lose the collateral revenue generated by visitors coming to the events.  Goodbye Boxborough, Marlborough, Feeding Hills, Westfield, Flea at MIT, et al,  Hope other states don't get the same idea.

R.I.P.

73,

MrMike

PS: Remember, there's still no sales tax in New Hampshire ;~)

[KX5JT]

And to think that this was the state (errr Colony) that hosted the Boston Tea Party!

[K1DEU]

  The downfall of Atlantis was that people became excessively civilized.

With a little adjustment for our less advanced technology ways.

Such as a forced collective tax burden for;

private garbage pick-up.
roads and highways of multi layer design.
health care for the obese.
health care for those who refuse to exercise.
health care for those who refuse to alter what they eat or drink.
auto body care for autos without studded snow tires.
vanity protection in the civil court system.
traffic lights when not necessary.
no tort maximums.
Military action outside our country!

And many more!    73    John,K1DEU

[W1RC]

 The downfall of Atlantis was that people became excessively civilized.

The downfall of Massachusetts if they don't smarten up quick will be that people, predominantly tax-payers, are leaving the Commonwealth for near-by New Hampshire while the lax welfare requirements are attracting more parasitic elements to feed off the system.  MA needs money and taxing flea markets and craft shows is a perceived source.  However it may turn out that the costs to collect this revenue will exceed the actual amount they actually get.

In addition I just don't see that many casual sellers like you and me going through the State's registration process just to sell a few pieces of equipment at the flea market.  They are always welcome to bring them up to Deerfield NH where there is no sales tax or forms to fill out.

73,

MrMike, W1RC

[K1DEU]

Rite on Mike;  I clearly remember the "Live free or die"  magnet that New Hampshire put out there so New Hampshire ites would have better public schools and highways.  Quite a large chunk of Massachusetts residents kept their businesses in Mass but built new residential homes nearby in the clean low populated State of New Hampshire.

Eventually with lax septic regs many new residents of NH polluted their-selves. And also found that its so expensive to build and maintain your own water and septic individual systems that there wasn't any money remaining for better public schools from the States Income tax. With no property tax.

IT is always a never ending dilemma for each individual wants their taxes to be used differently.  73 John, K1DEU

[The Slab Bacon]

Mike,
        I have seen this happen here in the state of Md. Some of the larger festers have actually had people from the sales tax division going around to hamfest vendors at some of the larger fests and forcing them to sign up for sales tax accounts. This has happened at both Timmonium, and West Friendship (Howard County) in the past. One year it dramatically reduced the amount of participation of hamfest and flea market vendors.

I have asked a few friends that are hard core hamfest vendors about how they dealt with it. Apparently, there is some kind of loophole that does allow them to get around it in this state. I dont know what it is, but only the vendors that have business selling similar merchandise are the only ones collecting sales tax at hamfests. Pete might be able to shed some light on this.

I believe, in this state tailgating is considered like having a yard sale at your home. You are allowed to have a limited number of them (maybe 1 or 2 a year) without having to charge sales tax. I guess they figure that the "income" from taxing them isnt worth the collection costs.

I do remember that when they tried to go after the tailgate vendors at some of the fests they just packed up and went home. They must have gotten it figured out, because it no longer seems to be an issue. I did attend the Timmonium fest this year for the frst time in many years, it was barely 25% of what it used to be!! But the West Friendship (Howard County) and Westminster festers seem to be slowly growing!!  

The bottom line is that with all of the give away programs the guvmint has in place, the money to pay for them has to come from somewhere....................

[WA3VJB]

Back in its prime, the hamfest at Gaithersburg (MD) was canceled by the organizers one year when the state announced that sales tax would have to be collected by everyone who was selling.  This was a very big deal, because of implications for ALL such fleamarkets in the state, beyond radio merchandise.

The state apparently saw G'burg as a high visibility way to implement the new policy.

They didn't count on killing the event, nyah nyah.

As Frank points out, somehow in the time since then, the state has relaxed or otherwise distinguished between commercial vendors with a business license and individuals selling small-scale.

[WA1GFZ]

Here in Ct. it is all about providing high paying government jobs for your pals while you tax businesses out of the state.

[steve_qix]

Up until this change, it was legal to hold flea markets at hamfests because there was an exclusion in the definition of a "promoter".  Excluded were those who hold 3 or less events per year and less than 7 consequetive days.  These exclusions were removed.

Hey, I didn't vote for ANYONE who is currently in the Mass state government.

On another matter, in recent years, New Hampshire has SIGNIFICANTLY tightened their septic requirements, to where they are as strict as Mass.  The septic requirements are probably one of the few laws I've seen that actually make sense, and I live in a house with a private septic system and private well.

[The Slab Bacon]

As "Old Buzzard George" (W1GAC) used to say.....................

"I live in Framingham, in the state of Taxechusettes"     

[w3jn]

I got hit with this at Timonium.  I sent the great state of the Peoples Democratic Republic of Maryland a check for $10 based on sales of $200 or so and they were happy.

[W1RC]

I remember a LOT of years ago the tax boys showed up at the Rochester NY hamfester demanding everyone selling in the flea market register and collect NY sales tax.  Next year and subsequently they didn't show up.  However this may be different.

My friend Larry, N1PHV, runs a military vehicle show in NH.  He told me that his club has a show in MA every March.  This year they were contacted by the DoR about ten days in advance of their show and were informed that all vendors would have to register and collect tax.  Larry said that the DoR people were told that this would be impossible this time because they didn't know who was coming.  The DoR backed down saying that they would not enforce it this time but they would have to pass out the registration materials and that the law would be enforced at the next show.

Larry says that after the show the Board of Directors held a meeting and that they are looking for a new show venue in NH where there is no sales tax to worry about.

Since at this point in time the Commonwealth of Taxachusetts is so starved for revenue I think this time they mean it.

73,

MrMike

[longle SWL]

Yes, the tax guys were out in force at Timonium walking around signing people up. It's sad how greed can kill events like this. Somebody spends $50 in gas to come to a Hamfest and sell $100 worth of stuff and then has to pay a setup fee AND taxes besides. No wonder attendance was way down this year. At this rate the club will not be able to rent all the facilities one of these years and that leaves the Fairgrounds free to book other shows at the same time. I remember what that was like in the eighties. If you didn't get there by 7am you could not park anywhere nearby. I was there once when there was a Hamfest/Computer show, horse show, and flower show all on the same day. What a mess. 

[WA1GFZ]

One could argue that people who attend these events provide taxable revenue to local stores and restruants, not to mention hotels. All these places are taxable.

[WB2EMS]

I remember a LOT of years ago the tax boys showed up at the Rochester NY hamfester demanding everyone selling in the flea market register and collect NY sales tax.  Next year and subsequently they didn't show up.  However this may be different.

I was there for that. As they went table to table shutting down people who didn't have the required 'papers', a large angry crowd began to follow them about. They were making noises about shutting down the hamfest. They eventually fled to an office in the dome building, with a bunch of us out in the hallway shouting questions and comments. Two uniformed state troopers came and stationed themselves at the door to the room to keep the crowd back, probably now over 100 people between the angry and the curious.

About a half hour later, the troopers got a radio call, and opened the door to show an empty office and disperse the crowd. The two tax men had been evacuated out a window into a waiting trooper car and driven off the site!

People were just Yellified!

My understanding was that the festival promoters aggressively went after the tax people for over zealous enforcement and IIRC, had the effect of getting at least one of them dismissed from his post. In later years, they had forms for you to get and the deal was it was between you and the state to take care of the tax stuff, but I don't recall any other times when they had enforcement on the site.

But it took a toll on the hamfest. Before that year, it was second only to Dayton. After that year, it was a shadow of itself and seemed never to quite recover and eventually got so poor it wasn't worth the drive from Ithaca. I hear it's doing better in it's new incarnation at the new site. I may give it a try this year.


I recommend a nice bubbling cauldron of fresh black tar near the entrance marked "Free", with complimentary feathers available at various vendors.

[Carl WA1KPD]

Net result- more stuff to ebay or the dump.

Maybe time to set up the Hosstraders net again

[k4kyv]

Every state and every local government in the country as well as the federal government is effectively broke and looking for new ways to suck more revenue out of the public. 

A prime example is the "spectrum auctions", where the FCC extracts exorbitant fees that go directly into the general treasury funds, thousands of times beyond what it costs them for administration, licensing and enforcement of usage of that spectrum, which they never owned to begin with. Where do you think the corporations ultimately get that money to pay off those successful auction bids?

I would expect this to get worse before it gets better. In the meantime,  politicians will keep the TV-addicted public distracted and confused via sensationalist media reports of their high-profile campaigns to enact insignificant revenue-saving measures like shutting down WWV and NPR.

I think Dayton has been requiring you to fill in some kind of tax form to go with the purchase of a flea market space, but it would be up to the vendor to keep track of what they actually sell, and I doubt if many state agents have a clue what most of the stuff would sell for. This may apply only to regular vendors who actually do it as a business.

Besides, the state (or some state) has already collected tax on this stuff once, when it was first sold as new. Looks like double-dipping to me.

[WA1GFZ]

float dem bonds we need everything.
So government can skim the system for their cut to manage the stupidity

[KM1H]

Bring the shows to NH but keep all those damn residents living down in MA or wherever.

The 2010 census says my little border town grew 18% the last decade and most all those a-holes want to do is spend, spend, spend and raise taxes.  Luckily many lost their homes and hopefully returned to their welfare states.   Windahm grew 28% thanks to I-93 running thru the middle of it.

Heck, the MA papers have even photographed their politicans shopping in NH!

Carl

[WB3LEQ]

Another thing to think about is whenever you set up and sell something.  Does this throw a flag into the state income tax side of things because you are selling something that could be considered as a gain.  Lets say you bought a piece of Collins gear back in the 1970's for $500 and sold it for $600 this year.  If you failed to report this on your state income tax would the state income tax people get crappy enough to force you to show what it originally cost you and what it was sold for?  Remember a capital gain through the sale of property is never indexed for inflation.  It also makes me wonder how many tax agencies have their people monitoring PayPal accounts on EBay.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

1 - Feel free to come up to NH and spend/buy anything you want

2 - Then Go back to Taxachusettes and deal.  The problem with the migration north is the first thing people do is want to put in all the allotments and entitlements etc that they had 'down south' or put that farmer out of business because of "nusinces" like noise, or smells etc.  Eventually you end up with the same crappy conditions as down there.  Salem NH is known as "Northern Lawrence" cause of that.  
Maine is a great example of this, everything from Portland south was filled with folks from Mass, who promptly outweighed the rest of the state in votes, so the state did a gradual sliiiide to the left and now they are stuck, with the working folks up taxed out of employment.

On a side note, Massachusetts actually tried to collect Sales taxes on purchases made in NEW HAMPSHIRE (tires to be exact).  The case ended up getting resolved that was just a lil-bit ILLEGAL and NH actually stepped up and defended our small businesses.  

 

[KF1Z]

On a side note, Massachusetts actually tried to collect Sales taxes on purchases made in NEW HAMPSHIRE (tires to be exact).  The case ended up getting resolved that was just a lil-bit ILLEGAL and NH actually stepped up and defended our small businesses. 

In Maine and Vermont, it's called "use tax".

If you buy something via mail order, or online, you are supposed to report it and pay taxes on that purchase.
( if it is an item you could have purchased, and would have paid sales tax on in State.)


Look at all the regular vendors at any hamfest.
75% of them should be collecting sales tax.

Of course they should all be reporting their income too, but I bet that doesn't happen  :-)

[W1TAV]

Not wanting to incite violence but I do support moderate disobedience,  I WILL go out of my way to attend a show as a seller that I know will come under scrutiny by the Mass DOR. Hopefully a few other fellow  Tax,,, Errr...AM Miscreants with some balls would join me in telling the DOR (In a chant) !!.. Yes, this has me pissed! What would W2VJZ (RIP IRB) say..?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZd2NsO7aD4

Steve  

[KM1H]

Im sure if you live in NH and sell in MA that you can just throw away the paperwork. Now if you live in the remaining socialist NE states you are probably screwed.

I used to sell at Dayton for many years and every show the D0R clowns handed out paper work which went right into the trash. Every other year I registered under another name, address and phone #.  After about 10 years of that I just got fed up with the Dayton Hamfest...period.

[KB5MD]

Arkansas has a use tax law along with the sales tax statute.  They audited my business for use tax and after paying their auditor for 3 days of her time, she said I owed 258.00 for three years of use tax.  Now, how the heck do they justify paying the auditor for three days time and she only collects $258.00?  Talk about deficit spending....