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Author Topic: Wintertime Daytime 40M Experiment  (Read 7026 times)
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K1JJ
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"Let's go kayaking, Tommy!" - Yaz


« on: January 03, 2011, 03:43:05 PM »

Steve/K4HX and I have always talked about trying to see if we can work Europe on 40M throughout the day, especially during the high absorbtion early afternoon hours.

Today at 12:45 PM (broad daylight) I turned on the rig and tuned 40M. To my amazement I heard a faint VU2ELJ in southern India calling CQ on 7135. He was working a bunch of Europeans in a pileup. It took me 10 minutes to fire up the rig, but I gave it my best effort and called him on LSB.  He came back to me with "DK1JJ." (German call)   I had to repeat a few times I was a USA station... Grin  He finally got the call and when the QRM went down gave me a 5X7.  I gave him a 5X6.  We talked for a good 10 minutes and both of us could not believe we were working at my 1PM sun-up time. He was also running a Yagi.  We signed out and he continued working Euros in the pileup.  I was vely happy.

I went down the band to 7130 and called CQ for Europe. It was quiet and then ON4UN came back. (Belgium) John is the author of the famous "Low Band DXing" book. We talked for a good 30 minutes about antennas and SDR radios. He said during a survey of 500 top gun low band DX hams, NOT ONE was running an SDR radio. They all had riceboxes. I found that interesting.

Afterwards, my friend Fern/VE2ZV broke in and we both worked some more stations and did some signal comparisons. One was a Russian, then Qatar (Middle East) and then a VK from Austraila called in.  Conditions were fantastic and again, this was with the sun up high in the sky in the mid afternoon on 40M.    

The Euros were still calling as I  shut the rig off at 3PM and took Yaz for a walk... Wink  What a cool day on 40M!

T


The 40M antenna:


* 4X1 Rig 157.jpg (322.69 KB, 960x1280 - viewed 424 times.)
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 04:21:54 PM »

WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TOM
All that AL....U..... minium splains how you did it. OM
Did Steve the new guy make any contacts??? Tom VU??

Us low-lifes with 70 foot high dipoles won't be able to match that.

But nice report and 40M is an exciting band that gets out very well and QRN (at my place) is usually S-2
Tanks
Fred........The first FRED HERE(?)
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Fred KC4MOP
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 04:30:09 PM »

Tom,
Gee too bad I turned the RX on 40M around noon to see if the crap was coming in. It was there but a lot weaker. I did hear a few stations but was more interested in working on the rig so moved to 75.
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K1JJ
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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 05:21:10 PM »

Yeah Fred, I tried my reference 40M coax-fed dipole at 40' a few times and found it was down as much as 15-20db from the stack. It would have been rough going working those weaker stations.

Frank,
After John/ON4UN told me about the lack of SDR users for serious DXing, he then said he uses an Elecraft K3. He said that was becoming the most popular radio cuz of its specs.

We also talked to a very knowlegable EA3 engr who said he used a K3 too and thought it was better than his SDR in the shack for DXing. He said the lab tests aren't the same as on-air action, whatever that meant.

Later, a few broke in and agreed the K3 was THE radio. Amazing that it also comes in kit-form and is such a small radio.  One of the UK stns said my FT-1000D wud put it to shame, that the K3 was a toy in comparson, but the majority said it was the opposite.

So, think I'll play with the down converter 455kc SDR for a while and go from there.  Maybe the FT-1000D is a keeper a little longer until the transceiver high end SDRs evolve some more.

T
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2011, 06:29:05 PM »

Hi, Tom.

I had a similar experience some 35 years ago when living on the farm back in Illinois.

Had a 150' stick up and a 700 foot vee beam out to some hundred foot cottonwood trees in the field. Aimed maybe 25-30 degrees. Rig was a Kenwood 510 and a pair of 4CX250Bs.

Working split on 40 at maybe 2 in the afternoon in the winter, I called CQ DX several times and I got a call back from UK2BBB in Uzbekistan. I still remember it like yesterday, I was flabbergasted for a mid-afternoon DX contact on 40. It truly is an amazing band.

Hey, when are we gonna hear you on 160? It's been killer lately as well. Goes long here by 6-7 PM.

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WA3VJB
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2011, 06:33:09 PM »

Someone whose experience and analysis I trust on the Flex vs. K3 discussion is Tom, W1TXT in Connecticut.

I was talking with him Saturday evening and he put his Christmas present, a K3, through its paces on AM.

Here's what he sounds like, and his thoughts on why he chose against the Flex.

He does not spend much time on AM but certainly is friendly toward the mode, and has been interested a number of times in joining us either by listening or by getting on with us.

Tom JJ before you shell out the money I'd give him a call and have a chat. He has an excellent technical grasp of the differences among what's out there.

* TXT.mp3 (1439.54 KB - downloaded 206 times.)
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w1vtp
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2011, 06:39:11 PM »

<snip>

Frank,
After John/ON4UN told me about the lack of SDR users for serious DXing, he then said he uses an Elecraft K3. He said that was becoming the most popular radio cuz of its specs.

<more snip>

  One of the UK stns said my FT-1000D wud put it to shame, that the K3 was a toy in comparson, but the majority said it was the opposite.

So, think I'll play with the down converter 455kc SDR for a while and go from there.  Maybe the FT-1000D is a keeper a little longer until the transceiver high end SDRs evolve some more.

T

My thoughts - Just be sure the appropriate roofing filters are installed on the K3 and other radios. For better or worse, the Flex radios do not use roofing filters

Al
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K1JJ
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"Let's go kayaking, Tommy!" - Yaz


« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2011, 06:42:41 PM »

Very interesting .mpg, Paul.  I like the idea that he is using Flex's PowerSDR software with the K3 to get the same software display. As he said, " The best of both whirls."  He description of the computer crashing and having problems - and the user group too - leads me to delay any high end transceiver SDR-related action for at least a year or so.

Yeah, after today, I have decided to keep what I have, big rigs included, and work with the SoftRock 455 converter using the same PowerSDR software. That's both a RX and spec analyzer in one. How can ya go wrong?

Tnx for the recording.




* Bill, pretty cool with that big V beam so high in the air. That must have been a bomb on 40M.

160M: I should get the 4X1 rig tuned up there and leave it parked for a while. Lately, I've been so excited working 75M and 40M DX with these good cornditions, I haven't been interested in rag chewing on 160M AM much. Just work 75M AM sometimes wid the locals.

I'll see if I can make it up there this week and say hi.


OK Al - I will do some more reading on that. I don't plan on getting a K3, but at this point it appears to be the best choice, esp now that I realize it can run with the PowerSDR  software. (Just like any IF radio, I suppose)

T
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There's nothing like an old dog.
Todd, KA1KAQ
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2011, 07:07:26 PM »

I'll have to check my cards, pretty sure I've got a number from Europe back in the '80s, daytime hours. Nowhere near as good as late day/evening of course, but seems there were often a few clear stations around. Never really thought much about it, but didn't really understand propagation as well back then either.
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Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 07:32:28 PM »

I'm convinced EU is open to the east coast of the USA around the clock in the winter. Last year I worked EU stations as early as 1PM in the afternoon and as late as 9 or 10 AM in the morning. I've even heard a few east coast stations work the UK at noon on 80 meters! This all on phone, of course. CW would be much easier with its 15 dB SNR advantage.

Nice catch on the VU, Mr. Vu. That's a good catch any time of the day! You vely famous now!

Who needs sunspots when we have 40 meters?
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 08:03:37 PM »

The nice thing about the K3 is it is a stand alone radio not needing a computer. I suspect the K3 guys are smart enough to make the move to a stand alone SDR radio.
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W1UJR
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 08:58:30 PM »

Funny you should mention the K3 Tom!
I was at N2BC's shack this weekend and saw his K3 in action...all I can say is that I want one.  :-)
Have built all of the Elecraft products, but the K3 blew me away, and it has stereo outputs, not 100% clear on how that works, some audio delay magic, but I heard it with external speakers, really very cool. Now the big question, will the K3 work with my Icom PW-1. In any case, strongly considering placing order this evening for the rig, so may be able to give 1st hand report later this month.

40 Meters and Europe in the day, I can report that I can hear North Korea on 3912 early mornings before sun up, strapping in this AM like it was next door. A shorter hop/s over to the EU on a lower band makes sense to me. I wish I was home to try, alas vacation is now over.
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 09:10:04 PM »

We also talked to a very knowlegable EA3 engr who said he used a K3 too and thought it was better than his SDR in the shack for DXing. He said the lab tests aren't the same as on-air action, whatever that meant.

T
Tom my boss, who has been in business in the Two-Way radio world for 25 yrs says the same thing about a Bendix King hand held radio (1980 Stuff). The specs do not tell the real story and it is a better radio in the field. Sensitivity, dynamic range, blockingh, no noise oscillators, phase shifting in the I.F.Huh All these magic terms.
So there must still be something in all of the testing that is not being revealed in the real world use of this stuff.
Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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RF in the shack


« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 10:04:04 PM »

Tom,

What was ON4UN using for an antenna?  Wait.  Before you answer that, let's start a betting pool.  I'd like to put €5 on phased verticals
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2011, 09:24:23 AM »

I was looking at the K3 and WOW$$$$$$. Almost $2K for the basic 100W radio(KIT!!). Then if you want whistles and bells then be ready for another $1K. The accsys are not cheap!

I think I'll wait for the used market and stick with my Flex 1000 and my TS440

Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
Steve - K4HX
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2011, 09:55:30 AM »

Nope. It's a 3-element Yagi at 100 feet. He's been using it for 10 years.


Tom,

What was ON4UN using for an antenna?  Wait.  Before you answer that, let's start a betting pool.  I'd like to put €5 on phased verticals
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K1JJ
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"Let's go kayaking, Tommy!" - Yaz


« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2011, 11:42:31 AM »

Yep, that's right, John/ON4UN  uses a 3el rotary on 40M as his main antenna. I axed him how it compared against his 40M vertical systems and he said the Yagi is always about 10db stronger. I've found the same thing here.  For 40M at least, and somewhat on 75M, the Yagi's stand out. However, on 160M the verticals always do better for DXing.

The first time I ever worked him was in Oct, 1986 in the 75M DX window. I had up a 7 element wire Yagi at only 60' beaming Eur. He called me and said the takeoff angle on the Yagi was probably 60 degrees and laughed. I didn't know what he meant, since it was before I learned antenna modeling and just agreed with him. He said he vaguely remembered that antenna... Grin  

Through his book, John is probably responsible for helping hams to gain more db in both transmiting and receiving systems on the lower bands than any other ham on the planet.

BTW, was on 40M last night holding court on 7130 from about 10:30PM to 1:30AM working DX. Snagged a UA9, 3000 KM east of Moscow. He was at -40C local temp and was beaming the North Pole to hit New England. Lots of Arctic flutter on him. Also worked a very rare Gabon, Africa, TR8CA station. I forgot the country even existed until I looked it up.. Grin

T

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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed.  Easily done in DSP.

Wise Words : "I'm as old as I've ever been... and I'm as young as I'll ever be."

There's nothing like an old dog.
ke7trp
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2011, 02:02:13 PM »

If you go to the K3 Tom, I will be a step down. You will be upset and you will sell the K3.  FT1000D with INrad filters and Roof filter is the radio.

C
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K6JEK
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RF in the shack


« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 02:41:50 PM »

Nope. It's a 3-element Yagi at 100 feet. He's been using it for 10 years.


Tom,

What was ON4UN using for an antenna?  Wait.  Before you answer that, let's start a betting pool.  I'd like to put €5 on phased verticals
After I put my wager in I looked at his layout in the back of his book.  Sure enough there was 40M Yagi with a lot of description on how he built it. I wonder if he ever uses the 40M 4 square. But actually the antenna of his that I wonder the most about is his 80M wire four-square --  four sloping verticals each with one (uno) elevated radial.  Really?  This is what he has for 80 meters.  It works?

Now who gets the 5 Euros?
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