RF Spectrum analyzer for computer - recommendations?

[K1JJ]

you should join some SDR groups, and read about it..
Lot's of people disagree with that statement.
I don't own an ft-1000d, so I can't comment.

 

All I'm saying is that my expectations are low. That way I won't be disappointed.

There will come a time when I try the latest top-of the-line SDR receiver against the FT-1000D. After all, the 1000D is old 1980's technology, about 25+ years ago.

Though, hope I don't sound immodest, but I hear these guys with the latest SDR radios working weak DX on and not one in the states can out-hear me into Eur on 75 and 40M. I've listened to many holding court and hear what they can hear and what they can't. Of course antennas help, but some of these guys have Yagis too.  I'm just not convinced, for the reasons I gave two posts ago, that I will uncover a weaker, lower layer of stns as a result of using an SDR.  

But, again, I do intend to try one in the near future and will let ya know the A/B results. I will certainly run them side by side for a while.

Maybe Frank will bring over his latest SDR config for an evening and we can give it a go. I can plug it in right in place of the redundant SP-600 receiver.


T

[Pete, WA2CWA]

This is always an interesting chart to look at:
http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
Ran that race. The RA6830 has similar close in performance to the FT1000D. Wider out it is better. When there is close in splatter I can fire up the HPSDR and take it right out due to filter performance and lack of phase noise.
My Hot rod racal is better but still the phase noise thing is a big plus in traffic.
99% of the time I fire up a Racal and go because I don't need a computer.
I suspect in the near future A rig will come out self contained with a good preselector into a DDC RX  and DUC TX. The parts count in the rig will drop like a rock. All the filters will go away. You look at the new FTDX 5000 and they still have all the analog stuff up front with the SDR off the IF. You can get the same performance with a Softrock off an IF. The rig is giant and I bet has a matching price tag.

[WA1GFZ]

When you  have close in performance above 85 dB you are getting into real performance. Then you can tell the difference between real splatter and synthesizer crud faking you into thinking your neighbor has splatter.

[W9AD]

It's not cheap, but it's nice.  http://www.signalhound.com/

[K1JJ]

Interesting comparisons.

Yes, I see they rate the receivers' order by "Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced (dB)"  and the 1000D is only about 69db. That is not great. Though the widespaced spec is 90db, which is good.

I can see why this could be a help when a LOUD station comes in close, even if it is clean.

Yes, the new Yaesu 5000 ($10K+?) is impressive as well as the K3 ElectroCraft.

I will need TWO receievrs to maintain the dual diversity RX system I use, so the cost will be X2. That dual diversity - I've gotten to rely on it quite a bit.

My interest is growing to look into the higher narrow dynamic range aspects of SDR....

T

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Yes, the new Yaesu 5000 ($10K+?) is impressive as well as the K3 ElectroCraft.

T

A mere bags of shells. 200 watt transceiver with two fully independent receivers. You can, of course, price it up with additional accessories. And, lots of knobs and buttons  http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0355vlrg.jpg for those that can't do without. It's ever cheaper then the Icom IC-7700.
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0355.html

[K1JJ]

The 5000 is QUITE the radio!

The receiver looks hot.  Lots of output jacks on the back for stuff.  Rotator control outputs.  Looks like an analog S-meter - good.  Lots of knobs instead of menus for the common functions.  6M included.


Things I see lacking:

1) Only -31db IMD for 200w out. I wud think they wud be better by this time, but they do have the class A 75w mode for -75db? 3rd.

2) A bigger bandscope wud be nice, like the Icoms have.

3) Maybe they can be had for <$2500 used in a few years. But when the serious SDRs start coming out by Kenwood, etc., they could drop like a rock. Just like the AM boatanchors did in the early 70's.

I wonder what happened to the 400w Yaesu? It looked like a big hit option a few years back.

T

[Pete, WA2CWA]

3) Maybe they can be had for <$2500 used in a few years. But when the serious SDRs start coming out by Kenwood, etc., they could drop like a rock. Just like the AM boatanchors did in the early 70's.

I wonder what happened to the 400w Yaesu? It looked like a big hit option a few years back.

T

They're still offering the FTDX9000MP (400 watt unit). Base price is a mere $11K.



Add a few bells and whistles, and you're up to about $14K. http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/0900.html

And, if you like razzle dazzle type of equipment, this might be coming soon, maybe:



Serious SDR's coming from the big three, I probably wouldn't hold my breath for something anytime soon.

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
They had a 5000 on the bench at W1AW last winter. The displays are a bit small. So many knobs would make your head spin.

HPSDR guys have a diversity set up with a pair of Mercury receivers.
They are also about to start selling the new interface because USB2 is running out of bandwidth.

[K1JJ]

Frank,

I spent a few hours watching the videos below and some on YouTube of the Flex 5000. Also watched a bunch on the Perseus receiver.

I'm feeling inadequate, depressed and way behind the times...  


Check out the videos:
http://www.flexradio.com//Products.aspx?topic=videos


Comparisons of Flex models and specs:
http://www.flexradio.com//Products.aspx?topic=SDR_Feature_Matrix

That Flex 5000 has incredible features I never knew about.  Did you check out the ability to do dual diversity AND mix the amplitude and phase of the two antennas to provide nulls, etc?  Dual receivers. Also the ability to control three different linears using three coax outputs and three PTT's with a mouse click?  You could switch bands with full QRO in seconds. It takes me 5 minutes to do it now.  I could see having a dedicated amp/antenna system for 75, 40 and maybe 20M.

The Flex filters are unreal. No ringing and going down to 13 hz on CW.

The only thing I don't like about the Flex is the poor -27db 3rd IMD figure. I think they addressed it sometime since an ARRL test, but it would be nice if they offered a class A clean output, even if it was only 20 watts with that 100w output set of class B finals. * Update: I see their own literature now shows it at -34db worse cae... that's decent.

I'm looking at my station and scratching my head. No wonder the guys out there are smug running the Flex.


I'll probably wait and play with the SoftRock that Buddly is sending, but maybe the Flexes will come down in price used if they come out with something new.


I would even consider the 5W Flex 1500, but the RX is not as good as the 5000.

I was looking at the Persus software spec analyzer waterfall. FB receiver. That appears to show a great way to see bandwidth. There's some YouTube videos of it in operation on the SW bands. I wondered about the higher noise floor and the lower sensitivity, but they do have a preamp available.

I'll take a look at the Mercury receivers.

Frank, what issues do you have with the Flex 5000, besides price?

T

[WA1GFZ]

The only difference between Perseus and mercury are the Perseus has the older 80 MS A/D while the mercury has the 125 MS A/D. Both are 16 bit. Also the preamplifier chip was out by the time Mercury was designed. I think the 170 mS part may be out and I hear talk of a 250ms A/D but each will require more FPGA horse power.
QSR1 has the 125 ms A/D but not the preamp.  It came out between perseus and mercury
Jay uses his Perseus all the time and likes it.
I would not waste my time with anything Flex unless you can get it cheap.
Stick with the FT1000D for now and maybe pick up something to play with as a second RX. I bet in a year or two there will be some new interesting stuff coming out that won't require a computer control.
The FTDX5000 has a 40.455 MHz first IF, 455 KHz second IF into the DSP.
Racal RA6830 with my homebrew SDR interface. 40.455 MHz first IF, 455 KHz second IF into Tayloe I/Q to computer.
As you see this is just a DSP hanging off a common MIL analog RX configuration with a fancy front panel display

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I'm looking at my station and scratching my head. No wonder the guys out there are smug running the Flex.

T

Yes, we are, and we have good reason 
I don't know if you saw this on their web site, but it's a feature comparison matrix: http://www.flex-radio.com/Products.aspx?topic=SDR_Feature_Matrix
Once in a while, a Flex will pop up on Ebay for sale or on their e-mail reflector but generally the price is only a few hundred below the actual new selling price. They hold their value very well. I doubt you'll see any real price cutting (although they are on sale now).  There's no reason to. For contesting, DXing, and digital work, the Flex is hard to beat as far as versatility and flexibility on the bands. You really need to play with one to get the "feel".

[vk3he]

Hi Tom

Dont forget the Winradio Excalibur G31DDC,  its a generation ahead of the Perseus.
It can display the whole  HF spectrum to 50mhz, direct sampled with a 1.5khz resolution. It then can further sample the spectrum over a 2mhz slice down to millihertz resolution. I just ordered mine.

It uses a 16bit AD converter for the price its bargain. You can also use it with Linrad.

One added bonus is that it has a 100db dynamic range as a spectrum analyzer. Monitoring for things like IMD under dynamic voice conditions will be easy with such a high dynamic range. Its like having a real time spectrum analyzer rather than a swept instrument with its associated delays.

Peter Hart in the RSGB review said that it blew his 100db HP spectrum analyzer away. If you want the RSGB review I am happy to send it to you. Peter Hart also commented that its his new No1 on his receiver performance ranking table, the phase noise performance is very impressive. Download the software from Winradio and have a play you will soon get an idea how it  would play with with the receiver attached.

http://www.winradio.com/home/g31ddc.htm

73
Craig
VK3HE

I'm looking for a self-contained piece of RF spectrum analysis hardware that will put out a USB signal to the computer.  I already have a SoftRock board, but it's fried - doesn't work. I don't want to waste any more time on it or buy another one, nor depend on an outboard receiver for the 455kc output.

Steve/HX had sent me a link six months ago (IIRC) of a tunable RF unit that put out the required audio signal for about $350?  I can't seem to find it.

Or can anyone recommend another lashup besides the SoftRock that is self contained besides the computer?

T

[vk3he]

Hi

Forgot to add  that there  are few demonstration videos on Youtube. I am not associated in anyway with Winradio.
I have just come up through the ranks playing with SDR receivers from the softrocks, SDR-IQ, Perseus  and one or two others.

All the SDR receiver manufacturers are not really taking their SDR products for use as spectrum analyzers seriously. Most of these products lack basic spectrum analyzer features like smart markers,  the ability to define IMD masks, occupied bandwidth, adjacent channel power and many other bread and butter features that RF gurus need. You typical see these spectrum analyzer features in the commercial SDR receivers like the IZT products which cost a fortune.

You can see the advanced spectrum analyzer features that are standard with the IZT products
http://www.izt-labs.de/izt/en/products/receiver/receiver.html
Anyway I dont have $20K for  the above receivers, so the Winradio will have to do. I will just hope that some ham
will write a suitable spectrum analyzer software suite one day.

I am waiting patiently for a SDR transmitter as well.

73
Craig

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
My issue with the Flex is the DDS source. It is the weak link. Direct sample has one crystal oscillator. It doesn't get any cleaner than that. SDR does need a good preselector.
I operated the Flex 5000 at W1AW. They have some real high levels of BCI near W1AW and the RX was getting trashed big time.
I think Softrock hanging off an IF is a great start to get used to the software. The Flex Power SDR is great. Remember the softrock doesn't need much signal to work 10 to 100 microvolts should be more than enough.
HPSDR software changes a few times a year. I think Perseus also upgrades every few months.
HPSDR diversity has some modes where you can play with phase but I have not played with any of it yet. I need to get the new interface module but can't afford afford until I recover from the truck issue.
HPSDR guys have a Spectrum analyzer in the works.

[KF1Z]

My Genesis G59b hears way better than QS1R. ( by over 18db on 10 meters)
That's still with no preamp/preselector.
Just mixer gain I guess..

These are really cool little kits..

The software USED to be power sdr.... re-written for these radios.

It uses an Si570 for the LO .. Not enough noise from the Osc to worry about for me.
I get more interference from my computer disk-drive.


QS1R
Phil keeps promising a front end board for the QS1R along with it's companion transmitter...
I really don't think its going to happen..
for nearly 3 years, he's been saying "in a few months..."

Right now I'm very content playing QRP digital modes...
Working Australia, So. Africa, etc.. on a regular basis on 40 meters JT65a at 5 watts or less.

[K1JJ]

Thanks for the info Craig.

You have my interest up. Looks like it costs about $600 and my Dell 3000 is all set with USB 2.0 and dual core.

The sensitvity looks good.

What are the close-in and wide dynamic range db numbers?  I see 107 db, but not sure which is which.

I see it has "AMS" mode which means AM sync det?

I like the look of the software and want the waterfall feature which it has.

Their specs look impressive:
http://www.winradio.com/home/g31ddc-s.htm

Let me axe my lawyer... What do you think, Frank?   Is this a good way for me to start out with a high end RX?   The Perseus is almost twice the price.  How about the 100ms sampling rate?

A good technical writeup:
http://www.winradio.com/pdf/g31ddc-review-radcom.pdf

T

Hi Tom

Dont forget the Winradio Excalibur G31DDC,  its a generation ahead of the Perseus.
It can display the whole  HF spectrum to 50mhz, direct sampled with a 1.5khz resolution. It then can further sample the spectrum over a 2mhz slice down to millihertz resolution. I just ordered mine.

It uses a 16bit AD converter for the price its bargain. You can also use it with Linrad.

One added bonus is that it has a 100db dynamic range as a spectrum analyzer. Monitoring for things like IMD under dynamic voice conditions will be easy with such a high dynamic range. Its like having a real time spectrum analyzer rather than a swept instrument with its associated delays.

Peter Hart in the RSGB review said that it blew his 100db HP spectrum analyzer away. If you want the RSGB review I am happy to send it to you. Peter Hart also commented that its his new No1 on his receiver performance ranking table, the phase noise performance is very impressive. Download the software from Winradio and have a play you will soon get an idea how it  would play with with the receiver attached.

http://www.winradio.com/home/g31ddc.htm
73
Craig
VK3HE
 

[WA1GFZ]

not sure I know what 100 ms rate means. hardware looks good but I don't know anything about the software
I see a price of 650 pounds and what about VAT
QSR1 might be cheaper.
Talk to Jay but I think a used perseus is still a good deal.
I would start with the softrock and get used to it.

[KF1Z]

650 pounds is $1004.00 today

We don't pay VAT in the USA !


The Winradio Excalibur  is $899.99 in the USA, plus shipping..

https://robogroup.com/winradio/cgi-bin/wrshop.cgi?receivers!Receivers

Too bad it stops short of covering 6 meters.... because of the 100Ms clock sample rate...

[WA1GFZ]

HPSDR is going away from USB2 to gain more horsepower to monitor broader spectrum. New board will be sold next month. I read the Hermes transceiver will have the same new interface.
QSR1 I think Phil is overloaded supporting what he has. This could be the reason he has not produced more hardware.  Too bad he he went off on his own rather than stick with HPSDR. I think he wanted to make some money for all his hard work.

[W9GT]

Hi Tom,

I have an SDR-IQ receiver and I really have enjoyed using it.  It makes a great "fish finder" for looking at a panoramic display of an entire band segment or frequency range. I'm using it with the IF-2000 interface that plugs into the FT-2000.  The software that comes with it has some limitations and I understand that it will work with several other software versions, however, I haven't tried them.  It really depends on what kind of application you have and how accurate the measurements you are after need to be.  I'm not sure that it is necessarily a good tool for viewing your own signal.  Obviously, some padding/attenuation is necessary to keep from overloading the receiver.  This might also be a problem when viewing other signals, however, I have found that it is useful to compare signals and get relative bandwidth and quality indications.  I can't honestly say that I'm convinced that the SDR will replace a high dollar Tek or HP spectrum analyzer, but it is certainly a useful addition to the station.

73,  Jack, W9GT

[K1JJ]

Jack,

The author of the article below thought the WinRadio G31DDC for spec analyzer use was even better than a high-end HP spec analyzer. That's what got my attention. But now that I see it cost $900, I'm hesitant to proceed. For that kind of money I'd rather pay more and get a complete TX/RX system. 

http://www.winradio.com/pdf/g31ddc-review-radcom.pdf

It seems the Flex is the best thought-out package for features and integration. Otherwise you will be nickeled and dimed and doing a lot of R&D to duplicate this with the separate various RX and TX modules out there. Then what do you do for software to approach the features of Flex?   Too bad the Flex didn't have a Perseus or equivalent as a receiver.

My short term goal is to put together a spec analyzer that will tell me on the fly how my ssb or AM rig looks for bandwidth. I want to be able to adjust the amplifier loading, bias, drive and tuning to find the IMD sweet spots. Also, I want to explore the possibility of improving my receiving capability when working weak DX. (In place of the FT-1000D's receiver.) 

I'm still thinking about what to do and will try the SoftRock Lite while I learn more and decide.

BTW, why would a ham want to monitor such a large spectrum? (50 mhz at a time, etc)  One band at a time is plenty or we will become scanner junkies who sit around watching and hearing the whirl go by.  I could give a damn if Radio Thailand signed on or was even audible today..

I often wondered why after calling CQ on 40M there is a huge following within seconds. These guys have bandscopes and plaster the web with spots. You can't even belch without people going back days later, pulling out the spectrum recording and posting it... HA! It's like walking in downtown NYC with big bro cameras everywhere.  Things have changed.

T

[Steve - K4HX]

Exactly. Your antennas will make more of a difference than any new receiver. The reality is that for all the talk about dynamic range, close-in blah, blah, blah, spurious free spew, spew, spew, none of that makes any difference on 99 percent of the contacts you'll make. Most of it is driven by the weak signal CW guys working in contests.

If any of those pseudo-elitists had any real scrote, they would build their own receivers specialized for that purpose. But since most of them are elitists in name only and have far less technical competency than they think they do, most will never build their own RX. Instead, they will P&M about why Yaecomwood doesn't cater to 0.001 percent of the market. Yea, that's a good business model.

Frank,

The thing is I rarely have problems with adjacent strong signals taking out my receiver from overload. It is usually caused by IMD SPLATTER on frequency - and no receiver, no matter how selective will eliminate on-channel crud.

In addition, the next biggest problem is atmospheric noise generated by propagated T-storms, rain static, power lines, etc. I understand no DSP system will help this problem either. (well, maybe power line pulse-type problems can be reduced)

So what's left is back to adjacent channel overload, and usually the f-b and high angle suppression of the antennas keep this problem at bay most of the time on 75/40M.

As for synthesizer noise, the band noise is MUCH louder and covers up any residual syn noise by at least 10db. esp on 160-40M. I just checked and even on 20M when I connect the antenna the noise comes up about 6db higher than the syn noise.  At night on 75/40M the band  noise can be 20db louder.

So my expectations would be low regarding an SDR being a BIG improvement over the FT-1000D in the real whirl of band action.  What do you think?  [caw mawn]

T

[vk3he]

Hi Tom

The G31DDC samples the  whole 30mhz shortwave spectrum and then the software also samples  smaller slice up to  2mhz(variable)
You can get the resolution bandwidth down to 1hz!

My reasons for buying this box was exactly the same as yours, mainly for spectrum analysis and nothing more. I also have SDR-IQ and a old HP8594 for IMD  and on air testing. I could not afford the SDR-IP from RFSPACE. The HP does not have enough dynamic range nor is it fast enough to capture IMD bursts from ALC overshoots etc. The SDR-IQ easily captures  these IMD products under real voice conditions. This article goes into the reasons why most spectrum analyzers dont do the job of on air IMD detection very well.

http://www.sm5bsz.com/dynrange/alc.htm

What also worried me about buying any old HP spectrum analyzer is that most of them are unsupported. If you do  you get  unit with a blown mixer you  have thrown your money away. The only decent analyzer that is still widely supported is the 8560 series of analyzers. However even on fleapay they are still selling for minimum of $5K

I think if you going down the Softrock road the LP-PAN is best bet. Its a professional solution  and works well.

http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-PAN.html
Telepost is also coming out with an integrated solution however I dont know how good it will be.
http://www.telepostinc.com/LP-500.html

I also use the Elecraft P3 however I find the screen cramped and  the unit is not as flexible yet as a computer controlled SDR, this might be solved later when they release the external monitor option.

As for the debate on a SDR_radio replacing high end spectrum analyzers,  this is a certainty  in ham radio anyway  since hams simply cant afford real time spectrum analyzers or any spectrum analyzer that has sufficient enough performance  that enables a true assessment of on air signal quality. Besides real time spectrum analyzers are the talk of the town at the moment in RF test circles.

Have a look at Rohde FSVR  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyrWDQjUHM
The real time display looks similar to the Winradio Excalibur! Anyway i cant afford $100K plus however  the SDR solution lets me  experience what  real time spectrum analysis has to offer at a cheap price.

As for HPSDR and Phil Covington, they all have nice ideas, however I cant wait  for kits and development. When they do release their products in a professional and supported manner I will buy.  All the off the shelf SDR hardware  that I have bought, I have been able to recover a reasonable % of my money  when selling  and funding other products. Its just about impossible  to get your money back if you heavily invest in HPSDR products. Thats my take from a distance anyway.

73
Craig
VK3HE






The author of the article below thought the WinRadio G31DDC for spec analyzer use was even better than a high-end HP spec analyzer. That's what got my attention. But now that I see it cost $900, I'm hesitant to proceed. For that kind of money I'd rather pay more and get a complete TX/RX system. 

http://www.winradio.com/pdf/g31ddc-review-radcom.pdf

It seems the Flex is the best thought-out package for features and integration. Otherwise you will be nickeled and dimed and doing a lot of R&D to duplicate this with the separate various RX and TX modules out there. Then what do you do for software to approach the features of Flex?   Too bad the Flex didn't have a Perseus or equivalent as a receiver.

My short term goal is to put together a spec analyzer that will tell me on the fly how my ssb or AM rig looks for bandwidth. I want to be able to adjust the amplifier loading, bias, drive and tuning to find the IMD sweet spots. Also, I want to explore the possibility of improving my receiving capability when working weak DX. (In place of the FT-1000D's receiver.) 

I'm still thinking about what to do and will try the SoftRock Lite while I learn more and decide.

BTW, why would a ham want to monitor such a large spectrum? (50 mhz at a time, etc)  One band at a time is plenty or we will become scanner junkies who sit around watching and hearing the whirl go by.  I could give a damn if Radio Thailand signed on or was even audible today..

I often wondered why after calling CQ on 40M there is a huge following within seconds. These guys have bandscopes and plaster the web with spots. You can't even belch without people going back days later, pulling out the spectrum recording and posting it... HA! It's like walking in downtown NYC with big bro cameras everywhere.  Things have changed.

T