5 minute ON, 2 hour OFF oil furnace timer to prevent freezing pipes

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
You would be amazed with the amount of heat you can get from a light bulb.
My two 100 watt bulbs in series will keep the water meter area about 70 when the rest of the basement is 42. If you could get some heat in that area then the problem goes away. I assume this is under the shack area of the house. If you need to get through concrete rent a hilti drill with a 1/2 inch bit.
It should go through a wall in a minute or so. Then blast yourself an access hole.
I worked on a 1811 house that was moved and had an addition added. It had the same problems. We got under it and added insulation around the outside wall.
That was the easy part. Then we had to pour pads and stuff a 16 foot carrier beam down the center to hold up the floor up. Some clown had used 2X8 on a 14 foot span with hardwood floors parallel to the 2X8s. all this through a basement sized window hole.

[W4EWH]

Running the circulators on a timer is probably only a stop-gap measure. The outside air will freeze the pipes the next time you get a sudden drop.

There are two ways to go here:

• Shut off and drain the pipes that aren't being heated. You can put a couple of shutoff valves in the zone that's prone to freezing, and simply drain it, provided that your coal stove is able to heat those areas past your family's "point of pain" 
• Install an in-line temperature sensor in the pipe, and use it to control the circulator motor. If your boiler is being used for hot water, this may be the only protection you need, although I'd recommend including a timer that fires up the boiler if the inline sensor doesn't detect heat within a few minutes. Sensors are not cheap, and you'd have to place it at the point in the pipe where freezing is most likely, so I'd go with method 1 to get through the winter unless you're willing to run the pumps 24/7, and when the warm weather is back, design a permanent solution.

The long term solution is to insulate or move the pipes that are prone to freezing, assuming that you'll keep the existing radiators, but before you do, it's a good idea to step back and think about other ways to accomplish the goal.

• There are a lot of "single room" heaters available, and removing or abandoning the pipes that freeze may be your best long-term choice. Newer models will rival or exceed the efficiency of a central heating plant, and are cheap compared to the cost of a single freezing incident repair.
• The offending pipe might be accessible from underneath, or via a vent window, so you may be able to insulate it after all. Don't forget spray-in foam and other insulations that can be delivered via small openings.

HTH.

Bill, W1AC

[WA1GFZ]

I got another dumb idea. Find the source and return pipes and connect it to a the secondary of a filament transformer with good solid conductors. Pump a couple hundred amps down the section of pipe to keep it warm. You could use a thermostat and a relay control the primary of the transformer. I seem to rember a homebrew transformer on a variac core that could be pressed into service.

[K1JJ]

Bill and Frank -

Thanks for some really good ideas!

Bill, I did consider blowing insulation under the room. There is a couple small windows for access, but painful. But it would block the piping underneath. I just looked and realized that the connection between the two baseboard radiators is connected by a length of about 20' of copper pipe that is UNDER this room in the cold!  Gads, no wonder I had a problem.   Frank, yes, this is the ham shack room without a cellar below it. Your idea about putting a couple hundred amps thru it sounds appealing. At 6v thats about 1200w or less on a Variac.  It will put some power thru the rest of the circuit to the furnace, too. That seems to be the only viable idea unless I blow in insulation, and even then, I still need some circulator flow periodically.  Do you see a problem or safety hazard with this idea, Bill?

What I don't understand is this:  If the hot water can freeze in 10 minutes, how did I get away all these years running the normal furnace through this pipe when the furnace would shut off for 30 minutes at times in the deep cold?  At least with the circulator jog idea I will have hot water circulating every 15 mins or whenever. Of course, the circulator runs independently as long as the water is hot enuff - if not, the furnace comes on to heat it up and then shuts off.

T

[KM1H]

Why not crank down the zone valves for that area to barely open and run the circulator continuously on the super cold nights? The water flow will be minimal and the furnace will still come on when needed to keep warm water flowing in the system.

I ran a wood stove for 12 years at a prior home and had to get creative with the furnace system to keep pipes from freezing.

[W1ATR]

Jared,  We have to put a glycol based fluid in all boiler systems in Alaska......You made mention of the glycol being tough on some of the components and seals.....Doesn't seem to be a problem for us...The boiler runs year round in most areas....just not as often in the summer month......Steve

Hi Steve. I have wondered about that before. It makes me wonder about the variables involved when comparing two applications in two different geographical locations. The seepage I find on some systems always seems to be in the same locations like flo-chek seals, drain/bleeder valve packing's, circ flange gaskets and so forth. These parts always seem to show the same pink powdery crud in the same places. I wonder if it might be because in my area, the zones are turned off of half of the year and the cooled off parts start seeping boiler water. I swapped out a Taco zone valve last week that was leaking around the plunger shaft seal and the inside of it was covered with pink flaky debris.

J

[W1ATR]

I got another dumb idea. Find the source and return pipes and connect it to a the secondary of a filament transformer with good solid conductors. Pump a couple hundred amps down the section of pipe to keep it warm. You could use a thermostat and a relay control the primary of the transformer. I seem to rember a homebrew transformer on a variac core that could be pressed into service.

LoL, that's how we used to thaw frozen water mains. I would drop a copper pipe down into the curb box so it touches the street valve and run 2ga up to the house and into the basement and put the clamp on the piping before the meter. I'd have the cust open up a faucet and i'd fire up the Lincoln SA-200 (aka Stinkin Lincoln because it smoked like an SOB). 30 seconds on the pipe at 175A and the water would start moving again.

Anybody that stops by the garage and see's my machine is like "WTF is wrong here?" It has 40ft of triple 'ought' on one side and 250ft on the other side.   

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
Check out Home Depot. They have a new blow in insulation that has some borax in it the keep the varmits out. They also rent the machine to blow it in.
I was talking to a contractor in the store a few weeks ago and he said it is great. He said new houses people have been going to R48 overhead and this new stuff is a lot easier than fiberglass batts.
Man I bet that tile floor is freezing in the morning.

[K1JJ]

Tom,
Check out Home Depot. They have a new blow in insulation that has some borax in it the keep the varmits out. They also rent the machine to blow it in.
I was talking to a contractor in the store a few weeks ago and he said it is great. He said new houses people have been going to R48 overhead and this new stuff is a lot easier than fiberglass batts.
Man I bet that tile floor is freezing in the morning.

I'll certainly check it out.

Yes, this floor/room is cold in the winter. Plus I suck in air from outside for the big rig blowers... brrr.

I guess the disadvantage is once it's done, there's no access underneath anymore.  If a pipe broke I'd have to run in above floor.

T

[WA1GFZ]

Do you know that most baseboards are set up so you can run the return line just above the fins of the radiator. It just takes a special clip that you can make or buy to hang the copper pipe. I did that in my solar room since we are sitting on concrete and rock. The radiant heat wasn't quite enough to heat the room plus the kitchen so I added baseboards with return lines above the fins. This might be a way you could modify the system to eliminate the pipe under the floor. Route it back to the basement where you could make the splice.

[W3SLK]

We use glycol both hot and cold in alot of our systems at work. Some of its tempered, some of its -20° and we have some that runs 50°C depending on what's needed.

[K1JJ]

Do you know that most baseboards are set up so you can run the return line just above the fins of the radiator. It just takes a special clip that you can make or buy to hang the copper pipe. I did that in my solar room since we are sitting on concrete and rock. The radiant heat wasn't quite enough to heat the room plus the kitchen so I added baseboards with return lines above the fins. This might be a way you could modify the system to eliminate the pipe under the floor. Route it back to the basement where you could make the splice.

I was just concerned about asthetics, but if the pipe breaks I will certainly run the new ones above floor.

I'll try the 30 minute circulator jog trick since the timer is on its way and go from there.

Thanks for all the info, guys. I have several possible paths to take now.

T

[WA1GFZ]

Tom,
You can't see the pipe unless you look inside the baseboard. It doesn't change the looks of it at all. This way you could eliminate the long pipe under the floor begging to split wide open at the worst possible time. You turn the one loop in the shack to two loops on either side of the room. Then run both back to the warm part of the house where you can connect them to complete the loop. The dual pipes in the baseboard will radiate more heat in the shack. Once you get all the pipes out of the crawl space you can fill the cavity and make the floor a lot warmer.

[WQ9E]

JJ,

Is the long section of pipe straight and do you have any access at either end?  If so if you could use some of the split foam pipe insulation and put the heat tape in the part of the insulation opposite the split.  Then start the process at the accessible area and feed it forward.  The foam is stiff enough it works well to push so that it slides along the pipe.  I would put a wrap of electrical tape every so often as the foam closes together at the starting point.  You would need to go a size or two up to allow for the size of the heat tape (use the narrow strip stuff) and to provide for easy sliding.

I didn't need heat tape but this worked as a good method of getting some insulation around hot water pipes in a difficult to access area.

Also check for air infiltration between the sill plate and foundation at that point.  I don't know about your area but around here there is a thin foam pad between the sill and foundation that is supposed to seal but irregularities let air through.  You can improve this via caulking the accessible outside area if there are leaks.

[flintstone mop]

Thanks Jared for the heads up. It's a forced air system and I understand the situation now. Let me see if I can make a bargain with my system. I'll shut off just three supplies. That would be the living room / dinining room

TOM any way you could blow some of that warm air from your coal heated room down to the exposed pipe area? Somehow get a digital thermomter to monitor the temp around that pipe?
I know a guy who has been using a pellet stove to heat his crawl space to keep it dry and assist his main heating plant. It has been working pretty good.
Fred

[W4EWH]

Bill and Frank -

Thanks for some really good ideas!

Bill, I did consider blowing insulation under the room. There is a couple small windows for access, but painful. But it would block the piping underneath. I just looked and realized that the connection between the two baseboard radiators is connected by a length of about 20' of copper pipe that is UNDER this room in the cold!  Gads, no wonder I had a problem.   

I don't know anything about running current through pipes, but if the efficiency figures for electric heat are any guide, you'll spend more than you save.

It sounds like you need to add a trapdoor to the crawl space. When professionally installed, they're nearly invisible, and a rug will cover anything that isn't. With that access, you can get down there and install proper insulation around the pipes.

For now, the timer on the circulator pump is a good start, but please do yourself a favor and run the numbers for other possible solutions:

• Add a trapdoor and insulate the existing pipes
• Run new pipes inside the heated area
• Use a "one room" gas or oil heater for the shack, and remove the baseboard radiators entirely

Just keep in mind that it's all about payback: don't spend more than you'll recover during the time you'll be in the home. After all, you have to watch out for the family joules!

Bill, W1AC

[flintstone mop]

My solution worked!!!
Two systems running and they "do not see each other".
I'm sending a thanks to the resident HVAC guy Jared.

Fred

[W1ATR]

There ya go Fred. Those wireless stats are nice. As long as the main unit doesn't short cycle, there won't be any problems. Shot ya a PM.

Thanks
J

[The Slab Bacon]

LoL, that's how we used to thaw frozen water mains. I would drop a copper pipe down into the curb box so it touches the street valve and run 2ga up to the house and into the basement and put the clamp on the piping before the meter. I'd have the cust open up a faucet and i'd fire up the Lincoln SA-200 (aka Stinkin Lincoln because it smoked like an SOB). 30 seconds on the pipe at 175A and the water would start moving again.

Anybody that stops by the garage and see's my machine is like "WTF is wrong here?" It has 40ft of triple 'ought' on one side and 250ft on the other side.   

Jared,
         thats funny!! You're the first person that I have heard that actually does that!!
The instruction manwell that comes with the little red church house AC-225 actually tells you that it can do that. Although, IIRC it says to use a lower current setting like 75 or 90 amps (or something similar) 175A could do some serious zorchage if the pipes are badly rusted iron pipes.  We used to use my old SA-200 to fire off balky diesels on brutal cold days   

[KB2WIG]

A looong while Back with a previous YL.... no water in the house.

The plumber tried the welder trick with the city box/ next door neighbor and our house. He burnt out his welder and the pipes were still frozen. Backhoe time; the city payed not a penny fer the new line.

I was yellafied.

 klc

[K1JJ]

For now, the timer on the circulator pump is a good start, but please do yourself a favor and run the numbers for other possible solutions:

•Add a trapdoor and insulate the existing pipes
•Run new pipes inside the heated area
•Use a "one room" gas or oil heater for the shack, and remove the baseboard radiators entirely

Very good summary, Bill.  (corrected, tnx, Jared)

The trap door is a good idea too.

I am awaiting the timer for the circulator. If I later pop a pipe, I will probably move everything above-floor and that will solve it all.

Tnx for the expert advice, OM!

T

[W1ATR]

LoL, that's how we used to thaw frozen water mains. I would drop a copper pipe down into the curb box so it touches the street valve and run 2ga up to the house and into the basement and put the clamp on the piping before the meter. I'd have the cust open up a faucet and i'd fire up the Lincoln SA-200 (aka Stinkin Lincoln because it smoked like an SOB). 30 seconds on the pipe at 175A and the water would start moving again.

Anybody that stops by the garage and see's my machine is like "WTF is wrong here?" It has 40ft of triple 'ought' on one side and 250ft on the other side.  

Jared,
         thats funny!! You're the first person that I have heard that actually does that!!
The instruction manwell that comes with the little red church house AC-225 actually tells you that it can do that. Although, IIRC it says to use a lower current setting like 75 or 90 amps (or something similar) 175A could do some serious zorchage if the pipes are badly rusted iron pipes.  We used to use my old SA-200 to fire off balky diesels on brutal cold days    

Yeah ya gotta watch it with the high amperage. A quick look at the water meter where the line comes in will tell you if its copper or brass. Around here, most of these house have 3/4" 'L' copper, so you can have at it. If it's brass, then I knock the amps down a bit. If it's steel, it gets a red tag and i go home.

I love this old Lincoln. I can leave it alone for a few years at a clip. Oil, coolant, and slap a junk battery on it and it'll start every time. It has that F163 bombproof flathead 4cyl. I got it off the side of the road probably 15 years ago for $200 and never did a damn thing to it other than cables. It could use a ring job, but it's so good at keeping the bugquitoes from biting.

I was surprised when I saw ads for the sa-200 where guys were paying pretty good change for them these days. That DC copper wound generator is where it's at. I know it'll lay down 7018 like it's butter rod.  

[W1ATR]

For now, the timer on the circulator pump is a good start, but please do yourself a favor and run the numbers for other possible solutions:

•Add a trapdoor and insulate the existing pipes
•Run new pipes inside the heated area
•Use a "one room" gas or oil heater for the shack, and remove the baseboard radiators entirely

Very good summary, Jared.

The trap door is a good idea too.

I am awaiting the timer for the circulator. If I later pop a pipe, I will probably move everything above-floor and that will solve it all.

Tnx for the expert advice, OM!

T

That was Bill. Blame Bill.

[kA5WHO]

We have been using Hercules cryo-tek- 100 anti freeze in our system for 25 years here in New Hampshire.I think we have changed it twice in all those years,it contains additives to prevent corrosion.I think it depends on the mineral count of your water,on how often you need to replace the anti-freeze.We have a low TDS here,places by the ocean our much higher.
dale/ka5who

[K1JJ]

Update:

I received the programable digital timer today and hooked it to a 120VAC relay. This in turn closes the contacts for both the upstairs and downstairs circulators.  I have it programmed to come on every hour for 5 minutes.

So far the system is working FB as designed. The cellar is also warmer cuz of the pipes radiating some heat. I plan to add a digital thermometer that will sample some outside air and enable the timer whenever it drops below 32 degrees. This way I can forget about turning the timer system on or off according to the WX. After all, automation is a good thang....

All in all, I am happy with this system and think it will work out OK. The coal stove has been heating the whole house for a month now 24/7 and the oil tank gauge has barely moved a hair.  I just know the Middle East is getting worried.

T