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Author Topic: QRO in the 445 nanometer band  (Read 21448 times)
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Patrick J. / KD5OEI
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« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2010, 06:50:15 PM »

That thing sounds so cool I still want to see some video.. How about one of cutting the rope?
The coolest laser video I ever saw was making coffee. The instant was put in a cup and the laser beam was directed into the cup and boiled it in a  second.
A question for the wordsmiths here: 'LASER' is an acronym, the word 'laser' is a noun. Which is correct?
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« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2010, 07:48:03 PM »

That thing sounds so cool I still want to see some video.. How about one of cutting the rope?

I will, I just want to make sure I have a camera with a CCD capable of handling the intensity of the reflected light. I don't want to cook an otherwise-perfectly-good CCD finding out it's not up to the task.

There's no shortage of online videos of this laser in action. It's the usual run-of-the-mill stuff: lighting matches, lighting joints cigarettes, popping a 20-foot-long row of balloons one by one, that sort of thing.

The coolest laser video I ever saw was making coffee. The instant was put in a cup and the laser beam was directed into the cup and boiled it in a  second.

That only worked because the coffee was there. Lasers won't heat water. You can shine them on it all day long, some amount will reflect, the rest will simply pass through. It will heat the container (if the container is opaque) or impurities in the water (like instant coffee), either of which will get hot enough to boil the water, but will not heat the water itself.

A question for the wordsmiths here: 'LASER' is an acronym, the word 'laser' is a noun. Which is correct?

Both. The acronym for Light And Stimulated Emissions of Radiation became common enough in everyday English that "laser" became accepted as a common noun.
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2010, 09:17:20 PM »

Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation  It won't be so cool when someone's kid brings one to school for show and tell. They can't regulate this fast enough IMO.
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« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2010, 09:44:18 AM »

Hmmm, $300 is about what a decent .22 rifle costs. I wonder what the killing range for chipmunks and squirrels is?  Cool
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« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2010, 11:03:48 AM »

Hmmm, $300 is about what a decent .22 rifle costs. I wonder what the killing range for chipmunks and squirrels is?  Cool

hmmmmmmm.................. Now thats one hell of an idea!! We have a few stray cats in the hood. Grin  Grin


the killing range for a squirrel is about equal to the distance from the frying pan  Grin  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2010, 01:47:52 AM »

Green light gets through the blue/ultraviolet filters.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/08/washington.plane.laser/
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« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2010, 12:21:16 PM »

I've had kids point lasers at me and think it's fun. Then there was a case in Florida where a man was pointing a green laser at an aircraft and they somehow found him. He promptly blamed it on his teen age son. Way to go dad!!
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« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2010, 12:46:39 PM »

Green light gets through the blue/ultraviolet filters.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/08/washington.plane.laser/

Any filter capable of attenuating a laser of any color down to a non-blinding level would filter visible light to such an extent that the pilots wouldn't be able to see anymore.

People who shine lasers at aircraft are a problem, and need to be dealt with sternly. The laser itself is not the culprit, the person holding it is. Every state in the union has laws to deal with reckless endangerment, and these people need to be charged accordingly under those laws. Confiscation of the laser is a matter to be determined in a courtroom.

Some green lasers are used by stargazers as star pointers to point constellations or other heavenly bodies out to others. These are typically 250-500mW, so the beam itself is visible (both because it's bright and because it's green). I don't agree with this practice at all, but people do it.

The perpetrator in this case may have been star-pointing, but most people who would do so know better than to do it on the approach path to a runway, so odds are that this was malicious.

What's somewhat surprising is how frequently these people get caught. When the cops catch wind of someone shining lasers at incoming aircraft, they tend to respond pretty quickly before they have a disaster on their hands. Of course, someone stupid enough to do it once is usually stupid enough to sit there and keep doing it, and the pilots can tell the cops exactly where the beam is coming from (it is a laser, after all).

This is exactly the thing I worry about: someone doing something reckless with a laser gives them a bad name, so sentiments like "they can't regulate this fast enough" are fostered. There are already laws on the books against endangering the lives of an entire aircraft full of people. Outlawing them won't make them go away, they're too easy to build out of common parts now. Anti-laser regulation is only a feel-good maneuver that solves nothing.

A powerful laser is a powerful tool. People who mishandle them need to be treated in exactly the same way as people who mishandle a firearm or heavy machinery. Looking around my office, I can quickly count at least 15 things I could use to kill someone; but outlawing USB cables, coax jumpers, telephones, power supplies, laptop computers, body armor, ceramic tiles, dummy loads, and spectrum analyzers just to save a few lives would do way more harm than good.
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« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2010, 02:16:32 PM »

Sorry I'm still not buying it. Thom you wrote "A powerful laser is a powerful tool"  I agree if used in a lab or some other controlled environment.  A hand held 1W laser has no legitimate purpose that I can think of. I love technology as much as the next guy but a laser like this is more dangerous than a squirt gun filled with battery acid and just as ridiculous.  Perhaps you're just "blinded" by the science. (sorry I couldn't help myself Wink )  Be well.

Phil
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« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2010, 03:17:50 PM »

Sorry I'm still not buying it. Thom you wrote "A powerful laser is a powerful tool"  I agree if used in a lab or some other controlled environment.  A hand held 1W laser has no legitimate purpose that I can think of.

Therefore, it has no legitimate uses at all? Sorry, Phil, I'm not buying that, either, and the world doesn't work that way.

Let me make this perfectly clear (yet again): my laser is used in a controlled environment. I am a responsible adult and a responsible scientist. How does portability suddenly strip a unit of all legitimate purpose? If I strap my handheld laser to a piece of wood, does that suddenly render it safe?

The unit is a cutting laser. It is used as a cutting laser. That is a legitimate use. Making it handheld doesn't make it stop being a cutting laser, nor any less legitimate; it just adds to the flexibility, and number of situations where it can be used.

A 2 meter transceiver can easily desensitize aircraft and public service radios. That's every bit as dangerous. Should we ban all 2 meter handhelds because they're portable, too?

I love technology as much as the next guy but a laser like this is more dangerous than a squirt gun filled with battery acid and just as ridiculous.

One could say the same of a 2 kV power supply. In this day and age, you can generate hi-power AM with software and a few transistors. High voltage is dangerous, so we should heavily regulate it immediately. Someone might get hurt. Not only that, but you might be tempted to use a PCB-filled capacitor, and we certainly can't encourage that kind of thinking! Besides, you don't need to do AM when SSB is so "spectrum conservative", so let's heavily regulate that, too. After all, there must be someone in the world who doesn't see a need for it.

If you think I'm blowing this out of proportion, think again. Once you start down the path of preemptive feel-good regulations for the sake of regulating something, the hypothetical scenarios I mentioned suddenly become much more likely.
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« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2010, 04:11:14 PM »

Thom, I don't doubt that you are being responsible. My argument is not against you personally so please don't be offended by my comments, that's not my intent at all.
I realize that anything can be dangerous, hell a pencil can take out an eye but you wrote  "the spot from this laser is bright enough to cause permanent eye damage if viewed for more than a quarter-second within 200 meters without eye protection"  that's something to consider.  And why is it shaped like a light sabre? Why do you think it was manufactured that way? That shape certainly can't help with precision cutting. When I said it should be regulated, I should have said outlawed. Shipments of these things should not be allowed into the country, just like the lead paint toys and the tainted baby formula. I understand and agree with your "preemptive feel-good regulations" sentiment, but I don't think it applies here. What happens when Hong Kong starts exporting Mr. Fusion do it yourself nuclear reactors?, ok that was a joke.
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« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2010, 07:00:37 PM »

Go get some popcorn. This is a serious old-buzzard transmission, even for me, but this is a good debate being had respectfully and in good faith by both parties, and how often does that happen?

Thom, I don't doubt that you are being responsible. My argument is not against you personally so please don't be offended by my comments, that's not my intent at all.

I know you're not aiming at me personally, Phil. No offense taken. In return, I haven't been aiming personally at you.

If I do, protective orange eyewear is available online.  Cool

Nevertheless, you have been somewhat implying that anyone who would purchase this unit could only be doing so for nefarious purposes, and much of your argument had been based on that premise. My point was that the premise itself is faulty, and I'm living proof of that.

I realize that anything can be dangerous, hell a pencil can take out an eye but you wrote  "the spot from this laser is bright enough to cause permanent eye damage if viewed for more than a quarter-second within 200 meters without eye protection"  that's something to consider.

Sure, but the exact same fact is true of an arc welder. Actually, arc welders are far brighter than that (and the same color), which is why welding goggles are so dark.

Yet, you can buy one at Sears, no training or license required, and there are no laws to stop you.

Should the same logic apply to arc welders as lasers? How about Tesla coils? They're both the same color as the laser, but brighter, and even capable of directly killing somebody, nevermind just causing eye damage.

And why is it shaped like a light sabre? Why do you think it was manufactured that way? That shape certainly can't help with precision cutting.

Actually, I find it quite comfortable to operate. My free-hand work wasn't the best, but practice makes perfect.

One could argue that a Maglite is shaped like a light saber. It's cylindrical, rugged, machined, and emits light out of one end when activated. Remove the lens housing from a four-cell Maglite and tell me you don't have the urge to take a swing at Darth Vader. Okay, maybe that's just me.

While we're at it, the handle of a stick welder looks an awful lot like a light saber, too, but I've drawn some pretty nice beads with them.

How many times do you hear in the news of someone causing death or damage with a Maglite or an arc welder because it looked like a light saber to them?

When I said it should be regulated, I should have said outlawed. Shipments of these things should not be allowed into the country, just like the lead paint toys and the tainted baby formula. I understand and agree with your "preemptive feel-good regulations" sentiment, but I don't think it applies here. What happens when Hong Kong starts exporting Mr. Fusion do it yourself nuclear reactors?, ok that was a joke.

Ah, so your real beef is the fact that it was made in Hong Kong! I had a suspicion that was part of this. Okay, let's discuss that:

I would argue that baby formula and lead-paint toys don't apply here, or are at least a bad analogy. Those were products specifically intended for children. In the case of the toys, children with or without adult supervision. They posed a direct health hazard to a vulnerable portion of the population.

These lasers are not marketed to children, cannot be purchased by children, and have been approved for import and use in this country. There are two completely separate interlocks, and the unit cannot be simply turned on even after the interlocks are closed. I can remove one of those insipid trigger locks from a handgun and fire it at someone faster than I can ignite this laser, and it takes twice that long to get it to full power once it's lit.

A kid might (okay, I'll even give you "will") think this thing looks incredibly cool. Hell, I'm pushing 40, and I think this thing looks incredibly cool (there, I said it). But unlike the hazardous products we just discussed, this doesn't become hazardous just by someone being attracted to it and getting a hold of it. A kid would have to know how to defeat the interlocks, then know how to ignite the laser, then know how to get it to steady-beam mode, then know how to get it to full power. You cannot go directly from "off" to "on".

By contrast, the baby formula and lead-paint toys only needed to go into a kid's mouth to cause death or injury. One product was intended for that sole purpose, and the other was just as likely to wind up in a kid's mouth as anywhere. I would argue that there's no comparison there.

Yet on top of all that, if someone owned this thing without keeping it locked somewhere kid proof, you'd have a pretty strong example of someone who doesn't deserve children, and I'd be all for rectifying that legally. Hell, I'd hold the door for the state worker.

If you do some research on the unit (which, with all due respect, I suspect you've only done some quick perusal on), you'll find that I'm not making this stuff up, and the manufacturers take safety very seriously. You should see the mountain of cautions-and-warnings paperwork that came with this thing.

On the Hong Kong angle, don't forget that their manufacturing and exports to the U.S. far predates their re-assimilation into mainland China. We were allied with Hong Kong while it was a British possession, and The Party knew not to mess with success when they got it back. If anything, China went more Hong Kong than Hong Kong went China. What is built in Hong Kong cannot really be compared to what is built in Shanghai.

If someone made a laser like this here, I'd buy it here. We don't make stuff here anymore. I'm not happy with that state of affairs either, but one must play the cards they're dealt. Personally, I have no problem with the idea of a 100% tariff on all Chinese imports as long as they're going to keep playing games with their currency; but that's a trade issue, and we'd have to devolve into a political discussion to address that. That's a discussion we're both better off having with our respective elected officials than each other.

Mr. Fusion? You betchyerass! If it cuts my utility costs down and shuts up the Green Police about my "carbon footprint", put two of 'em in every house, no matter who makes 'em!

Yes, you were joking; but again, I would be more concerned with the owner than I would with the existence of the device.

Your concerns are all valid. This device can be dangerous. Still, there are many common devices with far worse hazards, which we accept as a consequence of the technology. I do not feel there is any need to rush to a ban on something that has so many positive uses yet to be discovered by industrious enthusiasts. The risk of stifling potential innovation is just too high for me.

Okay, I'm done now. I don't know who's next in the rotation, or who's still here, but whoever gets it, gets it. Over!

--Thom
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« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2010, 08:15:37 PM »

HERE WE GO AGAIN!!   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2010, 09:23:32 PM »

Yeah, speak for yourself, white man!  Wink
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« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2010, 09:36:37 PM »



hmmmmmmm.................. Now thats one hell of an idea!! We have a few stray cats in the hood. Grin  Grin


the killing range for a squirrel is about equal to the distance from the frying pan  Grin  Grin

CATS ?!?!?!?!!
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« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2010, 10:01:53 PM »



hmmmmmmm.................. Now thats one hell of an idea!! We have a few stray cats in the hood. Grin  Grin


the killing range for a squirrel is about equal to the distance from the frying pan  Grin  Grin

CATS ?!?!?!?!!

Nah, cats will be fine. It's a blue laser, and cats' eyes are very good at reflecting blue light.

It's not like a Buck Rogers laser where you can just point the thing at a turkey, squeeze the trigger, and have it come out plucked, basted, and roasted to perfection with an abdomen full of truly yummy stuffing.

You might possibly exhaust one to death getting it to chase the spot, though. That's both a bug and a feature.
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« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2010, 09:21:39 AM »

Thom,  I wish we could have this discussion on the radio, as I hate typing, but I'm hardly on lately. 

Just like my pencil analogy, the items that you mention, arc welders and mag lights have legitimate purposes, but can also be dangerous given the circumstances. I know I can't get you to admit but, the laser that you are defending has no REAL legitimate/industrial purpose. You say you cut things with it, really? why? Aren't there other more practical or accurate options for cutting things?  If it were truly made for cutting it would be mounted in a jig and the wicked blinding light would be contained within the cutting plane. It's not made that way. So what is it? It looks like a toy. Is it a toy? It certainly is not. Is it it a weapon? I say yep. You can cause damage from a distance with this thing. It's a weapon, similar to a firearm, not like an arc welder or a mag light at all. So do I have a problem with a foreign country shipping weapons disguised as toys to the USA? Yes I do! Thom, I'm going to bow out of this now. I'm getting hungry. I think I'll use use my 38 to turn some provolone into Swiss for a sandwich I'm making. If you were nearby you could cut it in two for me. Wink 

Phil
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« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2010, 09:30:01 AM »

CATS ?!?!?!?!!

Dasss right! ! ! ! after about the 10th time you have to clean up your yard afta dem katz tore up yo garbage You start to feel that way. If you could off them without drawing any attention to yoself you might consider it a few times  Grin  Grin

I am still pissed off for not getting credit for inventing the cordless drill!! Years ago I used to use a .22 rifle to make 1/4" holes for wiring to go through. Unraveling 100' of extension cord to drill 1 or 2 holes was just too much of a P.I.T.A. back then.  Grin  Grin

So that is just the opposite, taking something that was designed to be a weapon and using it as a useful tool! !   Grin  Grin
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« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2010, 09:55:55 AM »

Gee, I once drilled a hole for a pipe with a 44 Magnum, the cordless battery was dead. Kinda expensive ammo these days so I just use it to keep in practice at the range; the days of splattering chipmunks is long gone.
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« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2010, 11:00:37 AM »

Just like my pencil analogy, the items that you mention, arc welders and mag lights have legitimate purposes, but can also be dangerous given the circumstances. I know I can't get you to admit but, the laser that you are defending has no REAL legitimate/industrial purpose.

Continuing to repeat that doesn't make it any more true than the first time you said it. You have no legitimate purpose for it. I do.

You say you cut things with it, really? why? Aren't there other more practical or accurate options for cutting things?  If it were truly made for cutting it would be mounted in a jig and the wicked blinding light would be contained within the cutting plane. It's not made that way.

There isn't a single cutting laser in the world that's made that way, Phil! Mounting the laser in a jig or a CNC machine is done by the owner of the machine, not the manufacturer. You buy the laser itself, then mount it in whatever apparatus you're using for the job.

Don't believe me? Look up industrial cutting lasers. You have an internet connection, use it.

You want a legitimate use? Ever try to cut down an antenna that's grown into a tree? This thing has already saved me the cost of hiring a tree crew or renting a bucket truck. Show me one device that can do a better job of cutting a rope from a distance. $100 to your favorite charity says you can't.

So what is it? It looks like a toy. Is it a toy? It certainly is not. Is it it a weapon? I say yep. You can cause damage from a distance with this thing. It's a weapon, similar to a firearm, not like an arc welder or a mag light at all. So do I have a problem with a foreign country shipping weapons disguised as toys to the USA? Yes I do!

Again, this laser is not disguised as a toy! Nobody is marketing this to children, and children cannot purchase them! Your assertion is just plain wrong.

Thom, I'm going to bow out of this now. I'm getting hungry. I think I'll use use my 38 to turn some provolone into Swiss for a sandwich I'm making. If you were nearby you could cut it in two for me. Wink 

Geez, Phil... we were being so civil about this, and now you resort to ridicule. Too bad, because you just lost the debate as a result.
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« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2010, 04:45:32 PM »

I thought the Swiss cheese comment was kinda funny. This story was on Fox today. http://video.foxnews.com/v/4406524/unidentified-light-in-virginia-skies/ I bet anyone who has read this thread can solve this UFO mystery. Call FOX news and tell them what it is. I'm sure it was purchased by a responsible adult for a legitimate purpose! This guy lives three miles from Dulles airport.
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« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2010, 06:05:16 PM »

Phil,

Hmmmm... you may have hit on something here.  Lasers in general - was it cloudy in VA that night? As you suggested, a laser might have been the culprit - relecting off the clouds like a movie screen.  In fact, is this the answer to the many sightings of UFO triangles and all that stuff?

Here's a post replying to the VA sighting:

"Awesome. I hope there is something going on. My boyfriend and I saw 5-7 orange triangles over SE Michigan a couple of months ago for about 10 minutes. They flew in different directions, stopped and even followed one another when they flew away...It was seriously amazing. We looked up other reports of them -- everywhere. The sightings are increasing. Who knows. Let's hope it isn't military, that's all!"


Someone could put together a complex laser jig with precision servo or stepper controls to do all kinds of UFO pranks. Even computer controlled rock concert laser gear could be modified.

Just like the crop circle guys who claimed to have faked it.

T
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« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2010, 06:27:15 PM »

Hey, if causing mass panic isn't a legitimate use of anything, I don't know what is!

Laser devices that create vector-graphic animation are cheap and plentiful these days. It could easily have been something like that.

My friendly wager still stands, Phil: if you can find a device of equal or lesser value that will allow me to cut an antenna support rope in a tree from the ground I will donate $100 to the charity of your choice (moderators: that does not legally constitute a bet, the benefactor is a third party, so I won't get Gary in legal trouble).

You literally have thousands of witnesses to make sure I don't renege if you can pull it off.

As for the rest, we've both made our views clear, and we're clearly not going to change each others' minds about any of this, so I'll agree to differ.

--Thom
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« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2010, 08:21:25 PM »

Even computer controlled rock concert laser gear could be modified.

That brings back memories...Laser Floyd at the Hayden Planetarium back in the '80s... good times! Think I'm going to dust off Dark Side of the Moon tonight. Then I'll just have to look out of the window and hope for some good citizens to start laser cutting stuff in their backyards.

Thom I'm glad we're done!!! 73 Phil
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« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2010, 10:06:32 PM »

Thom I'm glad we're done!!! 73 Phil

I enjoyed it, Phil. Seriously.

73, happy Veterans' Day, and enjoy the last few hours of the Marine Corps' birthday.
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