Silent Carriers that Answer CQ

[John Holotko]

Or you get those unidentified responses, "hey, you got too much carrier on your signal; check your rig"

I've yet to hear that one. 

Years ago, sometime in the mid 80s, I got an OO card that said that.

Me too. It happened the first time I was on AM. A couple days later I got an OO card saying that I had a carrier. I was temptedto answer with a "thank you". 

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Did you ever consider that most signals from Texas and nearby states have similarly poor intelligence as heard here on the east coast?   

I know very few east coast stations that purposely run big carriers with low modulation. I'm not sure where this myth got started but it doesn't square with reality. If anything, I've heard too many on the east coast trying to run too much positive peak modulation. It's loud but not always the best sounding.

What's east coast audio?

I got the concept from the following post:

http://amfone.net/ECSound/k1jj22.html

Those that run big carriers with little audio will sound fantastic to each other on short skip 75m propagation where a bunch of AM'ers are all within a 200 mile radius of each other, hence "east coast sound". These same carriers make it to the Midwest, and the west coast, but are largely unintelligible since the audio is usually in the noise level due to the low modulation percentage. Listening to NE roundtables here in Texas, this effect is very apparent. Then the next guy might be 100% Q5 and not have an S meter reading any higher.  

I'm not being critical; this was just an observation with a little tongue in cheek jab.  

Jim
WD5JKO

[ka3zlr]

Did you ever consider that most signals from Texas and nearby states have similarly poor intelligence as heard here on the east coast?    

What's east coast audio?

Yessum  an even some of the Transplanted ones...


lol

I'm not being critical; this was just an observation with a little tongue in cheek jab.  

[WA3VJB]

poor intelligence as heard here on the east coast?

Man, I could go on about poor intelligence that I've heard over the years. Mostly on slopbucket of course (just listening, as when no one will answer my dead carrier CQ). For these folks, narrow bandwidth = narrow mindwidth.

But when it comes to intelligibility, yes, weaker signals are typically less readable than strong sigs, and suitable audio quality can only partially compensate.

[k4kyv]

It is also a matter of peak-to-average ratio.  With no compression to the audio, you may hit 130+% modulation on peaks, but with some voices, the average percentage of modulation is still less than 30%.  In that case it may sound like a strong carrier with low modulation. The typical human voice averages about 7-10 dB below the peaks.

A reasonable amount of compression will bring up the average percentage.  Even carefully applied clipping may help, with minimal distortion. But we have all heard "processing" taken to ridiculous extremes, particularly by slopbucketeers, when the voice is almost drowned out by background and fan noise.

An effective pre-emphasis curve can do wonders with voice intelligibility when used with minimal clipping/compression/limiting.

[ka3zlr]

So I say Hey look man..

..."ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself"..


West Coast Intelligence Baaaaaaaa.

 

[The Slab Bacon]

And then there is (was) W3EGC, you could hear him everywhere on the band (at once)       

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

With reverb! I think that was called Scranton Sound.

And then there is (was) W3EGC, you could hear him everywhere on the band (at once)       

[KB2WIG]

FWIW,

A most interesting website by w2DTC. There are several sound bites.

 http://w2dtc.com/w2dtc-sound-bites-page.htm

klc

[ka3zlr]

..."Your that Simple Truck driver".....I was angry at the time now it's priceless 

73

Jack.

[K5UJ]

The worst thing to ever happen to the SSB crowd was the outboard RF speech clipper.  Now Ten Tec is selling one again and when those things are not run right the signal can get pretty nasty.  Back about 30 years ago ETO sold a box called the Vomax, which was a multi-band audio compressor with a cutoff at 3 KHz.  It was a great SSB processor but is almost unheard of today, however ETO had the right idea. 

It's not easy finding an affordable multiband compressor that has the necessary frequency response.   Unfortunately the Vomax was a little too Space Shuttlesque for AM.   Optimods are way too expensive.  Off-hand only other ones I can think of are the Behringer 9024 and the CRL Spectral Energy Processor, the SEP400.   They turn up used once in a blue moon.  They are not exactly cheap but they are way less than one of those Orban 9000 or 9100 jobs.  I use an old Orban 422 analog compressor -- it is not multi-band but it seems to work okay.  It is very transparent.  At first I could not tell it was working until I looked at an oscilloscope.   I had the compression up all the way but backed it off because the audio was a little to dense and harsh.   It makes a good driver for a limiter.

About the only two things I hear that affect intelligibility that are easily correctable are 1.  Over modulation and 2.  Too much bass.  If those two things are not the problem then the problem is usually an assortment of:   conditions, my receive setup, or a need for more power and/or more antenna.

[ka3zlr]

This Processor here has affordable features.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--DBX286A

73

Jack.

 

[w3jn]

About the only two things I hear that affect intelligibility that are easily correctable are 1.  Over modulation and 2.  Too much bass.  If those two things are not the problem then the problem is usually an assortment of:   conditions, my receive setup, or a need for more power and/or more antenna.

Rob, I would add to that too LITTLE average modulation, and to my ears, modify your point about bass to read "too much bass at the expense of mid and highs" - ie, imbalance.

When I was posted to Cuba I did a lot of listening, using a 51J-4 with 3/6/9.7 KC filters, and a Drake R-8.  There were a lot of AM groups in 4 and 5 land that I could barely copy thru the static yet they had pretty strong signals due to very low modulation and telephone-quality audio that tended to be washed out by the static.

Conversely, stations running audio processing and wider audio were fully copyable - even in noisy condx with the 51J filter in the widest position.  I could almost always hear the tall ships in the Northeast even though their carriers as received in Havana were quite a bit weaker than the closer 4 and 5 landers.

The best combination was using the R-8 in its widest position (about 6 or 8 KC as I recall), sync detector on, and the passband tuning cranked all the way to either USB or LSB so the radio synced on the carrier but used its full bandwidth on only one sideband. 

On the AM BCB I could listen on any given night to WHAS Louisville (840 as I recall) and WTOP Washington (1500) with S-5 to S-9 carriers, (even thru the static and splatter from Radio Rebelde on 1300~ KC) on the R-8, both stations having processed and fairly wide yet sonically balanced audio.  10-20 over 9 carriers from low modulation amateurs were almost impossible to copy.

As an aside, the strongest AM amateur station I ever heard during that tour was in September 2002.  KB3AHE et al had set up a special events station at the Howard County, MD hamfest and it coincided with a solar event that produced aurora borealis fully visible south of the Mason-Dixon line.  That station was literally bouncing the S-meter off the peg on the 51-J at 10-11 PM local time. 

Anyway, I learned my lesson and upon my return to the US I scored a CRL spectral energy processor and peak limiter, which I believe markedly improved the effectiveness of my station due to improved modulation density.   

My point here is that given low QRM (but high QRN and/or weak signal) situations, receiver selectivity nor audio bandwidth is not nearly as important as a well-modulated signal.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Did you ever consider that most signals from Texas and nearby states have similarly poor intelligence as heard here on the east coast?   

When I was up north it was always difficult to hear most 4 and 5 Landers, even when they had a decent signal on the guess meter. Warren W1GUD made the trip pretty will with his 610 along with Gary K4XK, and I was able to work Brian WA5AM(then W5AMI) a couple times along with Jim W5JO in Oklahoma. also Marv with the T-368. Yet anytime Bill 'HG was on, he'd come barreling through, same with Ted K3COL(?) in Kansas City. I recall hearing Ted on some morning around 7-8AM, worked him a few times before heading off to the salt mines.

So I tend to think equipment and audio choices account for being heard more than conditions. When you think about it, there are certain stations like HLR who are always heard, all over the country. Several times I've seen folks comment online that they wouldn't run their rig like 'those east coast guys' which probably explains why they can't be heard.

No doubt, there are some who overdo it with added base and other, excessive processing. But even last night when conditions were so crappy I could here KBW and another station in the ghetto but only a few carriers with bits of audio from 4 and 5 Land.

[K5UJ]

Yep the big arbiter of who gets heard is mother nature.   She can just shut everything down if she wants.  Forgetting about M.N. for now, I think the guys who are most likely to be armchair copy are the ones with good antennas.   I'm always amazed at how, with a really hot antenna and a little bit of good condx, a guy running a DX100 can fool me into thinking he's on a big broadcast rig.

JN, I agree and, in another thread I mentioned how sw bc stations seem to really have a lot of high positive modulation.  Of course they can usually afford some decent processing gear (not to mention a lot of power and a pretty good antenna).  That was interesting about the CRL gear--I have a CRL SEP400B and a PMC450 here--I keep planning on trying them out but can't get around to it.  I'm told they are LOUD.  Were originally developed for stations broadcasting rock and roll, how about that.  I get about 10 dB gain reduction with the Orban compressor and then I drive the 222 with it to get around 6 dB GR with it.

Todd, yes Bill and Ted kc3ol are both always strong here.  Ted has a great sig. with his bc rig.  Makes it in from KC even a few hours after local sunrise.  I've heard HLR pretty good copy even when running his Valiant--I think it's those dipoles way up high.    Antennas are everything, IMO, then audio, then carrier power.

[WA3VJB]

Yes, I like the dbx stuff, new and old.

Station where I started out had a trio of dbx160 and a Crown tri-band splitter. Poor man's version of a DAP310, to compress separately the bass-midrange-treble. Sounded pretty good pushing an old Gates BC-1H.

Their newer transmitter had a UREI BL-40 Modulimiter. Except for the noisy automatic phase reverser (you could hear it do its thing during music), it was a solid performer.

Among current dbx --

For the price, this one deserves consideration, too:
http://www.bswusa.com/proditem.asp?item=266XL-BSTOCK

This Processor here has affordable features.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--DBX286A

73

Jack.

[W2PFY]

I've heard HLR pretty good copy even when running his Valiant--I think it's those dipoles way up high.

Most of his antennas are up at about 195 feet.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Yep, the best audio processor is a good antenna.

I've heard HLR pretty good copy even when running his Valiant--I think it's those dipoles way up high.

Most of his antennas are up at about 195 feet.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Eimac has a good line of antennas.

[K1JJ]

Eimac has a good line of antennas.

PissWeakers are people too....

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

You're killing me....   

Who would know if they can't be heard?

Eimac has a good line of antennas.

PissWeakers are people too....

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

The PissWeaker's Creed:

PissWeakers Scream It 'Til They're BITF

Not to be confused with "The Weaker They Are, The Longer They Talk".

 

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

You're killing me....   

Who would know if they can't be heard?

That's what the internet is for. The internet knows.....

[K1JJ]

BITF???


Black Information Technology Forum (South Africa) 
*** BITF Brawl in the Family (webcomic) 
*** BITF Body Image Task Force (University of Idaho) 
** BITF Borneo International Trade Fair (Kota Kinabalu, Sabah, Malaysia) 
* BITF Business Initiative Task Force (US DoD)

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Blue

In

The

Face