The Toyota's Corps. sudden Acceleration Problems still unresolved.

[Jim KF2SY]

food for thought...

I thought I heard recently that they were also looking into EMC related causes.
It's easy for us as hams to make the next logical leap and picture in our minds the
RF spewing from cell towers or that 18 wheeler with the biiiig leeenyar as having something to do with
a Toyota's sudden acceleration problem.  Especially when it appears so randomly and intermittent.  
We all know how much a PITA RFI issues can be.
Hope they nail this problem -and it's root cause -as both my elderly parents and my inlaws both have late model Toyotas.
Of course this was their first foray into buying an import because of Toyota's great reliability/reputation.
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/business/global/24toyota.html?bl

[W9GT]

I don't have a Toyota, so I'm not claiming to know anything about their problems.  I do, however, know that I have noticed problems while having the cruise control activated in Chrysler minivans.  The vehicle would accelerate when I keyed a 100 Watt mobile HF transceiver.  It seems logical to assume that such problems could be experienced when in close proximity of other RF sources such as broadcast stations or other vehicles with big CB leenyurs, etc.  The problem was never so serious that it would lead to loss of control...only gradual acceleration when the xmtr was keyed.

Who knows..we could be seeing some wierd effects on vehicle electronics from any number of environmental factors.  That is a pretty tough environment for any electronic control system.  Seems like all such systems should have "fail safe" modes and revert to manual control in the event of malfunctions.

73,  Jack, W9GT

[k4kyv]

Hams are increasingly wimping out and staying off the air because of consumer devices that (mal)function like radio receivers when they are not supposed to.  We have become paranoid about getting into telephones, stereos and computer speakers. We are even scared to set up a station and get on the air because somebody might think our antennas are ugly. Thanks to pseudo-science and the FCC, there is public concern about possible adverse health effects from the (non-ionising) rf radiation from our stations. "Stealth" antennas are becoming more and more the norm, even in secluded rural areas.

So now what, will hams feel additional pressure to stay off the air because our signals might trigger automobile malfunctions?

    

[WBear2GCR]

Ya isn't gonna get me into a "drive by wire" car any time soon.

I worry about "fly by wire" planes as well.

5 redundant computers (in a plane - or is that the shuttle?) are all well and good, but NOT when the failure mode is identical for all 5 and they get hit with the same thing that triggers the malfunction!!

So, the alternator dies, the battery dies and you cant steer or stop the car??

Don't know if the radio report was accurate but a woman apparently testified before Congress that her Toyota sped up to over 100mph and she couldn't stop it even by applying the parking brake??

Say WHAT? It can't be turned off with the KEY?? How about slamming it into reverse?? No??

You can keep that stuff... me like metal connections between the parts, key's that kill the power, etc...

                         _-_-bear

[Jim KF2SY]

The bottom line is that they (Toyota) still do NOT know WTF is causing the problem.  The "fixes" they have come up with such as overiding the accelerator with brake commands are bandaids.   No root cause discovered yet.
They just started looking at the electronics.   Flaky things do indeed happen in electronics, especially in the prescence of an ESD event etc.  i.e. "Latch Up"  ....ask an MIL HCI lab about the effects of radiation on electronics.  Maybe they will never find the cause,
but I sure hope they do.....and they have to do better than floormats.

http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slya014a/slya014a.pdf

[k4kyv]

The bottom line is that they (Toyota) still do NOT know WTF is causing the problem...  No root cause discovered yet.
They just started looking at the electronics...   Flaky things do indeed happen in electronics...  Maybe they will never find the cause...

They have my sympathy.  99% of my radio malfunctions are intermittent, and I know from experience that those are the worst kind of problem to troubleshoot.  Just when you are sure you have finally solved the issue, it unexpectedly reappears at the most inopportune moment.

[Detroit47]

I'm probably going to get flamed but I love to see Toyota having problems. I am a Detroit auto worker and proud of it. Buy American and keep Americans working.

73 N8QPC

[W1RKW]

The USN uses a fly by wire system on the VA class submarine. It has 4/3/2 redundant system. Not sure how aircraft distribute their onboard systems, but the VA class subs distribute the various systems over the entire length of the ship. Prior to system acceptance by the USN it was subjected to every EMI condition thrown at it.  All types of RF, noise, EMI were 'thrown' at it.  We had a couple of issues to overcome during development and they were shielding issues for certain sensors and cablining and how they were interfaced to the system.  But for the most part the system is stable.  We never saw an instance were a condition would cause a control surface go uncontrollable.

Maybe Toyota has an EMI issue.  I doubt it though.  One news report states an automotive engineering professor being able to replicate the acceleration issue by altering certain conditions via the software and hardware.

[Ed/KB1HYS]

I would pause before I believed the good professor.  A lot of things can be made to happen in a lab environment that aren't realistic in the field.  I just haven't heard enough about his "replication" to know if it is a legitimate demo or someone grabbing 15 minutes of fame.

One thing though, if he is right Toyota is in for a rough ride.

I wonder if the piss-poor drivers training has some partial blame here as well.  As flight crew, we were trained in how to handle most emergencies, and various unlikely senarios were always discussed in "Hanger Flying" sessions. (saved my butt once too, but that's another story).

How many people are actually taught to kill the ignition in a run-away vehicle?  How many have ever actually even heard that?  Dropping the tranny into neutral would also work, letting you keep the power stearing and brakes as well, until the engine self-destructed running full bore no load. 

I've taught my two boys to drive and emergency actions (hard braking with no anti-skid, steering into skids, swerves etc.) were covered in a huge empty parking lot. I never thought to address runaways, and I thought I was pretty thorough. 

I do the skid work because four teenagers were killed a quarter mile from here when the driver panicked, locked up the wheels and slid straight into a solitary pine.  If she'd have let up a bit, she'd have been able to miss the tree and have more room to stop, or atleast have slowed down a lot more before impact with the next set of much smaller trees.

[W1UJR]

Never underestimate the human factor, or trial lawyers.

Back in the 1980s Audi had "Sudden Acceleration" on the 5000 series, complete with a full smear campaign on 60 Minutes.

One little fix, the invention of a clever German, and now standard on almost all cars with an automatic transmissions, the brake pedal interlock, cured the problem overnight.

Yes, people were stepping on the accelerator pedal rather than the brake.
Heartrending to tell someone who just ran over a family member, but that was the simple truth!

Yes, cars are electronic, throttles are electronic, they have been so in Euro cars for over a decade.
Nary a problem.
In fact, the cars are safer.

People are afraid of that which they do not know.
And the news media lives and thrives on fear mongering.
Take a look at the lengths the new media was going to frame Audi -->> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/

I'd be buying Toyota stock all the way to the bank!
I may yet my Florida Keys retirement home this decade. 

[W8EJO]

These congressional Toyota hearings remind me of the old Soviet Show Trials.

GM is government owned now, just like in the old USSR Gorky Automobile Factory (Volga).

The government is simply attempting to damage their competition via this show trial. 

Toyota is being singled out for its recent recall of nearly 650,000 cars. Ford recalled more than 4 million vehicles last year and was not subjected to a Congressional Hearing (UAW = big political donor).

Grow up & do the math.

[k4kyv]

I'd be buying Toyota stock all the way to the bank!
I may yet my Florida Keys retirement home this decade. 

This might be a good time to buy one.  Sales will be down till this blows over, so dealers might be willing to cut good deals.  It's already a buyer's market as it is.  My daughter's boyfriend just bought a Subaru Outback and got 9K knocked off the price because it had 4000 miles on it.

[WQ9E]

Regardless of what root cause (or causes) is found or not found there will be some changes across the industry but it probably won't be pleasing to most owners as companies are forced to make products boringly idiot proof.  

The electronic key system, as utilized in some of the Toyota vehicles, that requires the owner to press for 3 seconds does not sound like a great idea.  Three seconds is a long time during an emergency-especially when it requires one hand to be dedicated to that sole function.   But a standard key switch that would allow the user to turn the key to the lock position possibly locking the steering would be as bad or worse in a panic situation.

The various "talking head experts" provide a good example of the lack of knowledge.  One suggested that the vehicle be shifted into park.  I believe most modern "auto magic" transmissions have numerous self protection systems built in and probably will not allow the park pawl to be engaged at speed.  Even if it did there would probably be momentary carnage followed by even more excitement if mechanical lockup of the drive train was allowed.  Although the park pawl itself may still be mechanically engaged on a lot of autos, if so it is the only non-electronically selected position.  

Assuming the command to shift to neutral is "recognized and allowed" during a glitch this would seem to be the best solution to a runaway engine situation.  But transmission control systems are about as electronically sophisticated and complex as the engine itself.  For example, the Allison automatic in my pickup works with the engine in cold warm up mode while in Park so that the transmission is used to load the engine even though the output shaft is still locked in park while engine RPM ramps up to bring everything to operating temperature more rapidly.   Depressing the brake to shift out of park automatically reduces the engine RPM and forward or reverse ranges cannot be selected until it returns to idle.  Other protections prevent manually selecting an inappropriate range while in motion.  On downgrades cruise control commands converter lockup and downshifts as necessary to prevent vehicle speed from increasing.  All of these features work quite well but certainly provide more opportunity for issues and customer misuse.  

Every vehicle I have had for many years has used "drive by wire" and the only issue I had when I bought the first one (a 95 pickup) was getting used to accelerating when cruise was engaged.  Since the pedal stays in the "neutral" position while cruise is operating you have to press a bit to pick up speed when at cruising speed.  My CTS is electronically complex but I really like the convenience and functionality it provides.  I like pressing a remote start key and being able to go out to a car with the heated seats on and climate control in operation; I don't want to go back to the days of carburetors and "almost automatic" chokes, vacuum operated windshield wipers, and leather clutches

Bruce's example of the Audi issue is excellent and the only thing Audi could be faulted for is perhaps pedal size and placement.  I drove a couple of Audi's of that era without running into anything  but a major part of product risk management is predicting  not how George Genius will use the product but how Dudley Dumbass will behave.

[WA1GFZ]

I was telling my boss that we should get a poster of a smashed toyota and put a few words below the picture. "Qualification by Similarity"

[Ed/KB1HYS]

Old Soldiers Maxim:

The smarter your equipment gets, the more ways it can kill you...

Remember the Airbus at the French (Paris?) airshow that decided it was landing and not going around?  The flight crew and airplane had an arguement, the airplane won, and destroyed itself in the trees at the end of the runway.

Murphyism 107:
Never trust a machine that is smarter than you are.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Make something idiot proof and only idiots will use it.

[W3SLK]

Steve said :

Make something idiot proof and only idiots will use it.

I think the axiom is "Nothing is foolproof......because fools are so ingenious!"

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

LOL. Much better!

[Bill, KD0HG]

My 2002 F-250 Diesel has a 100% drive by wire throttle system. There is no mechanical connection whatsoever to the engine. That's almost 10 year old technology.

The accelerator pedal is nothing more than a rheostat attached to a spring.
On one occasion, I took it to a dealer for a warranty repair- The accelerator rheostat got 'scratchy', causing hesitation when I mashed the pedal to the floor. Fixed right away. Hasn't been an issue in the intervening 150,000 miles.

Here's where Toyota screwed up, IMO: Their brake pedal should override whatever commands the gas pedal might have issued. Wherever the engine thought the throttle was, a braking command should shut down the engine to idle. Just like killing cruise control. Prime directive: Hit the brake, engine drops to idle. Period. That simple.

No one does a 'brake torque' takeoff these days- Not in a Toyota, anyway. Not like my '69 Chevy, LOL.

What a bunch of idjits.

[W8EJO]

There have been 19 fatal accidents linked to faulty  Toyota gas pedals and floor mats over the last decade. That's fewer than 2 each year or 0.005% of America’s 40,000 annual fatal car crashes.

As David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports, recently said :

"I find it a little odd that we're going to have a Congressional hearing to look at those two deaths out of 40,000...  you have to look at death rates in safety terms rationally."

Please do the math guys & look behind the headlines.

[k7yoo]

I had a Ford minivan go into full throttle mode. It was one of the older Winstar RWD vans and it decided to go WFO while easing up to a parking spot. You should have seen the skid marks left by the locked up front brakes. Only quick action on the key killed the motor and stopped the event. This happened while my wife was driving--she is a smart gal. Needless to say it scared everone involved. I called Ford headquarters and worked my way through a labyrinth of techs & execs. I was very cordial and asked them what I should do, and if they wanted to investigate. I stressed that I was just trying to give them a heads up, my wife and kids were OK, and I did not want to speak to an attorney. They totally stonewalled and pretty much told me I was FOS. I was totally incredulous that they didn't even want to look at it. They said it was impossible, never happens, must have hit the throttle etc. I surmised it might have something to do with the cruise control so I unplugged it. Six months later there is a big deal on TV about the syndrome. It turns out that water was leaking into the circuit boards on the cruise control, causing them to go nuts. I will of course never own another Ford. I hate liars.

[W3RSW]

Welk, you got all of us there.  

We had tarrif wars in the 30's.  Helped start and extend the depression.

Look for sanctimonious "Safety Reg" wars in the 10's, or "tainted beef wars,"...you name it.

  - and as mentioned coupled with alarmist media, lawyers, innumerical politicians and just about everyone that doesn't have an inkling of statstics or elementary analysis.

[flintstone mop]

The Toyota accelerator is US made? The TV news displayed a quick 3 sec of the name of the company.

Is Toyota using a mechanical linkage? The news reports are never clear on this.

Electronic accelerators have been around a very long time. I don't think it's a rehostat or volume control type of mechanism. That would be extremely unreliable! I'm guessing something like a mouse. A little wheel and an LED and photosensitive device to detect motion and direction of the wheel. Take a mouse apart and you will see what I'm lamely trying to describe.

RFI may definitely be an issue!!! With the unregulated CB radio and the idiots out there radiating 5 KW of RF.
Auto electronics were supposed to handle at least 100 W of an RF environement, because of amateur radio and police. If a module was damaged by excessive RF, it became your charge for a new one. Usually $1500.

If these are software glitches, then it goes along with the same denial and delay we have to get Kenwood to make changes to software glitches for their commercial two-way radio products. THEY know of the problems and glitches but wont' get off their arses and send out any patches or revisions, unless the comm shops create an endless uproar.

Fred

[K3ZS]

These things can happen with purely mechanical systems.    When I was 16 (a long time ago) my parents
had a 1958 Chevrolet Impala convertible.   One time, after stopping at an intersection on a hill, I started up and the accelerator pedal floored itself and the car took off.    The brakes were stronger than the engine and after putting on the brakes the engine died down and the accelerator pedal went back to the idle position.     The problem was that an engine mount had broken.    Under load, the engine lifted up and pulled the accelerator linkage to the floor.   It was scary the first time but I got used to it.

[WQ9E]

Fred,

A U.S. company is the supplier with the part made to Toyota specifications and I believe components (and probably assembly) are actually offshore in China.

About 15 years ago I was invited to watch the Covisint procurement system in action at a local automotive assembly plant.  This is a web based auction system that allows multiple suppliers to compete for provision of component parts over a multi-year window.   At that time, the products needed were announced and a number of suppliers sign up to participate and an auction start time is set.  Once a supplier entered a bid this started a 5 minute window for another supplier to enter a lower bid and once this bid was entered another 5 minute period was started.  This process continues until no supplier is willing to go lower.  The buyer can see the identity of the bidders but bidder identity is not disclosed to other bidders.  As you can imagine, this provides good cost savings for the assembly plant but the potential impact on quality is obvious with suppliers struggling to undercut each others' pricing.  This competition has always occurred but going to electronic real time bidding brings it to a new level.

I haven't investigated what is being used currently but the first electronic throttle I came across was in my '95 GMC diesel pickup and I was curious how the technology worked.  At least at that time the sensor consisted of three separate resistance elements.  As the accelerator was moved two would increase (or decrease) in resistance while the third went in the opposite direction.  The controller compared the three readings to its built in table and if the three readings did not agree upon position then an error would be declared.  I never experienced any problems with the pedal assembly but I recall reading about a few being replaced due to wear.  I am a heavy user of cruise control then and today since most of my commute occurs on country roads with little traffic and no stop signs or lights so the sensor would not have much wear in my type of usage.

One thing I noticed right away is much smoother cruise control operation with the electronic throttle control; there is insignificant overshoot or loss of speed in hilly terrain.  The one problem I found is that a lot of cars tend to lose a bit of speed on uphill with cruise on and I found the pickup getting closer than I liked.  Worse still are those folks on highways who should be required to have and use cruise control as they vary speed +/- 10 mph randomly within a 1 mile stretch of interstate.  I have never been seasick but I started feeling some motion sickness riding with one of my wife's relatives who varies speed continuously in a very annoying fashion.  I imagine she is one of those drivers who gets far under the EPA rated mileage in her car.