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Author Topic: Reverb - Real Spring or Digital?  (Read 36946 times)
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K1JJ
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« on: January 09, 2010, 10:54:56 PM »

Hola,

I'm thinking of adding a wee touch of reverb.  I have a couple of those cheap digital units that sound terrible.

I understand the real spring units are the way to go to get the best sound for high quality voice work. Is this true or will the modern higher quality digital delays do as well?  I see a number of spring units on eBay going for anywhere from $120 to over $1000.   Any opinions?

Rich/ K1ETP and I were discussing them the other day and he said he liked the spring ones better - and referred to how good Chuck/ K1KW used to sound with a spring unit back in the 70's.

BTW, if anyone has a working self-contained spring unit (not just the spring tank) for sale, please let me know.

Thanks.

Tom, K1JJ

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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2010, 11:24:58 PM »

Wait until 10 opens and you can be heard short and long.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2010, 11:34:11 PM »

How about 50 feet of PVC pipe.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 02:47:44 AM »

Spring reverbs have limited response and a fixed amount of delay. In general they suck compared to any decent digital box.
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W3FJJ
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 07:08:25 AM »

I like the way Kevin, wb4aio had his set up in the 80's. Not sure what type reverb he used, but
but it seem to only reverb on the highs, and there amout of smoooth decay on it. I have a feeling he
 split the audio up and reverb just the highs and mix together back with dry  and used some compression and peak limiting.
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w3jn
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 08:11:48 AM »

I had a factory spring reverb for the rear speaker in my '65 Imperial convertible.  It sounded like hell, and made all kinds of dramatic noises when I went over railroad tracks  Grin
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 09:03:26 AM »

My daughter spied a Hammond organ at an antique shop a few years ago and it ended up coming home with us; it came with the optional spring reverb unit.  As others have said the reverb section has limited frequency response and it doesn't have to be mounted in a car going over a bump to get some interesting audio effects. 

I would definitely vote for digital if you really want reverb (are you REALLY sure you want to do this???)

Under anything but perfect conditions this is going to take you into the more difficult to copy realm.  It will make your audio sound different from the crowd-but so will adding a bit of ripple to your bias supply  Wink

JMHO

Rodger WQ9E

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flintstone mop
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 09:49:04 AM »

I never saw the commercial spring units used on A.M. 'bcast. I heard that they were very big? Usually at the TX site. The ebay units are from that era?
I'll agree with the $200 Alesis digital, very nice effects. You can sound like the evil forces with the delay.

Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 09:50:41 AM »

I have a Pioneer Spring Reverb Box....This is a high quality unit made for home stereo units in the 70's...It uses a flat metal spring about 6-7 inches long that is suspended horizontally inside the wooden cabinet.  It is mechanically adjustable for amount of reverb gain with a front panel knob..It has a lighted display window on the front panel that uses 2 intersecting triangles to indicate the amount of reverb being used.  I have been using it with the Gates BC TX.  I turn it on and leave the reverb gain at zero..I have it sitting on top of the transmitter cabinet and it picks up enuf vibration from the transmitter cabinet to provide just the right amount of reverb...It has send and receive jacks out the back and I plug it into the Behringer vx-2000 aux input/output jacks...works great...If I advance the reverb gain knob even a little, it goes into "haunted house" mode..Lots of fun to play with.  Most times no one really knows it is on but I get comments about "full audio" etc..I also have a guitar unit that is mechanical...I gave it to another ham but he hasn't put it on the air..Never tried a digital waa-waa box...
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WA3VJB
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 10:03:29 AM »

I have had a couple of spring reverbs, and yeah, unless used very sparingly they don't do as well as what I have heard from digital counterparts.

One was a Fisher "SpaceXpander" and the other was from a Hammond PR-40 speaker cabinet or a Leslie revolving speaker cabinet, usually paired with a B-3 or somesuch. For a while I was into Hammonds and their speakers, but they were incompatible with apartment living.




I once picked up an AKG BX-15 at a state surplus warehouse. Now that was a whole different animal. Sounded GREAT and I wish I had kept it, but, like so many things, I wasn't using it and moved it along to a musician friend who could really do something with it.

Why not build yourself a plate reverb?  Still uses springs, but the metal plate shapes the twang.

http://www.platereverb.com/manuals/Plate%20Construction.pdf

History of the plate reverb (interesting reading):
http://mixonline.com/TECnology-Hall-of-Fame/EMT-140-reverb-090106/

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ka1bwo
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 11:11:36 AM »

Tom, this was from Jim Hawkins web site thought it was interesting.
Joe

THE BIG SOUND! HOW WAS IT DONE?
Remember the unmistakable reverberation on the sound of WABC? Well, at the time of these photos it was mechanically done with a large metal plate suspended by springs! Jonathan Wolfert, President of JAM Creative Productions, identified it as an "EMT plate reverb unit".
(JAM produces radio jingles and if you go to their web page by clicking on JAM above, you can order copies of past and present radio jingles.)

In a front room at the transmitter site behind some of the equipment was a big wooden box the shape of a small bed mattress, containing a mechanical plate reverb unit. The mechanical vibration from the signal was mechanically applied to the metal plate at one point and sensed at another with electrical "pickups" with a resulting added reverberation. The reverberation was mixed only to a certain extent to create just the right amount. The decay time was controlled by a mechanical damper which determined how long the plate was allowed to resonate. An example of a mechanical damper is an automobile shock absorber.

Jonathan pointed out to me that the reverb could be controlled remotely from a panel in WABC's "News Control", which was adjacent to the main studio 8A. During the late 60s they routinely turned off the echo at the end of Dan Ingram's show (5:55pm) and didn't turn it back on until Cousin Brucie began (7:20pm). The time in-between was a network and local news block. He also pointed out that sometimes they'd forget and the news would go out with echo... or Brucie would come on bone dry.

You could find smaller versions of reverb in organs and guitar amplifiers of the time, but in most small reverb units, this is accomplished only with springs because of space limitations. I believe the spring technique was a developed by the Hammond Organ Company, but I may be wrong. Now, this effect is easily achieved with digital effects boxes about in 2 or 3" high rack mount units or simply with your computer sound board. This effect is now used at WCBS-FM to recreate the old sound, but I honestly do not know what they use. I have a Lexicon LXP-15 digital effects unit myself, one effect being called plate reverb.

Jonathan told me that they later reduced the size of the mechanical units by replacing the large, heavy metal vibrating plates with gold foil.

As a side note, I made my own mechanical reverb unit by breaking open two crystal phono cartridges and removing the crystals, each with the pair of wires intact. I bent two ends of the spring so that I could glue the flat crystal units between two windings and suspended it between two hooks. I applied a low level signal to one crystal (yes crystals work in reverse) and wired the leads of the crystal at the other end to the input of an amplifier. Bingo! I had my reverb.




 
Hola,

I'm thinking of adding a wee touch of reverb.  I have a couple of those cheap digital units that sound terrible.

I understand the real spring units are the way to go to get the best sound for high quality voice work. Is this true or will the modern higher quality digital delays do as well?  I see a number of spring units on eBay going for anywhere from $120 to over $1000.   Any opinions?

Rich/ K1ETP and I were discussing them the other day and he said he liked the spring ones better - and referred to how good Chuck/ K1KW used to sound with a spring unit back in the 70's.

BTW, if anyone has a working self-contained spring unit (not just the spring tank) for sale, please let me know.

Thanks.

Tom, K1JJ


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K5UJ
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« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 11:36:29 AM »

Oh my gosh I was just about to comment that these things sound like the box they used at WABC in the 60s.   One of our Big Boomer top 20 60s rock stations here, WCFL 1000 (the other being WLS) used a reverb sound in the 60s also.

What is gained by introducing a touch of reverb?  Better intelligibility?  I'm always ready to learn about audio improvement methods.

Rob
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K1JJ
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« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 11:37:39 AM »

Very very interesting.  I guess ya never know these things til ya axe.


Speaking of the large metal sheet reverb -   I worked in a recording studio back in 1972 as a technician. I built audio gear for the customers based on the studio's IC designs.  In the recording studio back room hung a large sheet of galvanized sheet metal. It was about 4' X 8' suspended by springs. I remember the input and output driver and sensors mounted at opposite ends of the sheet.  This studio was high class, so I know they had the best reverb unit for the time.

Anyway, one day they were recording and I walked by the sheet with my boss. We could hear the faint sound of voices coming out of the large sheet showing they were using it. I thought I saw him tap the sheet as a joke - but I was wrong - he just bent down to listen. I then followed by and gave it a bang with my fist, thinking it wud be funny. As we walked into the studio, everyone was looking at us and very POed. We had just destroyed their mix... Shocked

Based on what I've read here, I'll look into digital reverbs again. I just want a wee bit of reverb that will barely get noticed. I always thought they sounded good when used in small moderation. After all, if Cousin Brucie used one...

Anyone have a good digital delay box for sale? I don't want a full blown SGT Anderson voice changer and all the stuff, just a high quality digital reverb.  As I said , the two I have, one from RS, are total crap and sound like it when used.  I used to have one that did symphony hall effects and all that, but sold it on eBay. I guess it did sound pretty good, but wasn't sure if the spring units were still the Cadillac.

T
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 11:49:29 AM »

Very very interesting.  I guess ya never know these things til ya axe.


Speaking of the large metal sheet reverb -   I worked in a recording studio back in 1972 as a technician.

Anyway, one day they were recording and I walked by the sheet with my boss. We could hear the faint sound of voices coming out of the large sheet showing they were using it. I thought I saw him tap the sheet as a joke - but I was wrong - he just bent down to listen. I then followed by and gave it a bang with my fist, thinking it wud be funny. As we walked into the studio, everyone was looking at us and very POed.
T

What did you do for work in 1973?
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K1JJ
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 12:09:35 PM »

"What did you do for work in 1973?"


heheheh - All was forgiven after a swift boot in the ass.

One thing mentioned above is intriguing about Kevin/ AIO's reverb -  Rememeber Tony Bennet singing , "I lost my heart in San Fartcisco?" If ya listen closely, you will hear tremendous reverb on the SSS's. (extreme highs)  It almost made them wispy sounding. Just like Kevin, it wud be very interesting to try using a splitter to enhance the highs only and see what it produces.  I remember my Sgt Anderson box having a freq slider to focus reverb on a particular audio band.



After all, reverb MUST enhance communications cuz you'll be talking after you've stopped talking, right?  Grin


(On my way outside to climb up to erect a dipole at 90' - cold out there. The local dipole at 60' over the house is being replaced with one out in the clear)

T
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Use an "AM Courtesy Filter" to limit transmit audio bandwidth  +-4.5 KHz, +-6.0 KHz or +-8.0 KHz when needed.  Easily done in DSP.

Wise Words : "I'm as old as I've ever been... and I'm as young as I'll ever be."

There's nothing like an old dog.
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« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 12:57:12 PM »

I recorded with a group at RCA Camden in the 60's.     The reverb they mixed in to the recording was from an upstairs hallway, that had a speaker at one end and a pickup mike at the other.

Another quick reverb source could be a computer.    Many of the software audio equalizers have artificial acoustics available.     I just got a Gateway netbook.     Clicking on its equalizer, there are some sound environments like small room, cave, large hall, etc. that adds the right kind of reverb and acoustics.   Since it runs up to 6 hours on battery, you could probably hook up the mike input and line output and not worry about ground loops or hum for a while.   YOu could probably use it for logging at the same time.

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2010, 03:14:42 PM »

Andersen Labs held a bunch of patents on sheet steel delay lines used at RF. They were pretty cool devices. I think used in the radar of the patriot missile.
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kb3ouk
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2010, 04:01:51 PM »

all the computers i've seen around here you can go and set it to add sound effects to your audio that will give the same effect as a reverb. It should make the audio sound louder. What i tried doing was letting a receiver turned on really low and allowing the audio from it to be picked up by the microphone, causing a slight amount of echo. It's not perfect but it does seem to make a difference, the trick is to keep the audio down low enough to prevent feedback, but at the same time to just make it loud enough for the microphone to pick it up.
Shelby
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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2010, 04:04:39 PM »

ummm.. I got a stack of guitar amps and keyboard with Reverb units. Maybe I will drag one in and try it.

Here ya go Tom:

http://www.tubesandmore.com/   Clack on reverb tanks.

(tom does not click he CLACKS on the air)
C
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KC2IFR
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« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 04:36:11 PM »

Quote
Spring reverbs have limited response and a fixed amount of delay. In general they suck compared to any decent digital box.

Digital reverb is by far better than the old spring units. But again cheap digital units will sound cheap and u will not have the flexibility of the more expensive types.

Bill
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W2XR
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 04:41:20 PM »

Ah yes, EMT plates. Virtually unobtainium these days, and priced accordingly. By the same token, virtually anything made by EMT is priced astronomically; the company largely ceased operations back in the early '90s if I recall correctly.

Reverb was somewhat popular for AM broadcast stations back in the '60s and 70's, not only for the "big-sound" effect, but because it does increase the density of the modulation to some degree, making the on-air signal sound louder.

My personal feeling on the subject, effect issues aside, is if you really want to increase the modulation density of your signal, use proven audio processing techniques such as gain compression and limiting.

73,

Bruce
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2010, 04:43:57 PM »

Speaking of REVERB,  guess what EGC's "honers" was related  to... 
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KC2IFR
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2010, 04:57:56 PM »

Quote
My personal feeling on the subject, effect issues aside, is if you really want to increase the modulation density of your signal, use proven audio processing techniques such as gain compression and limiting.

Agreed Wink
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W8IXY
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2010, 08:35:52 PM »

I had used a Behringer Virtualizer Pro on an oldies AM station 7 or 8 years ago. 
It has a number of presets, including an emulation of a plate reverb, similar
to the sound you'd get from one of those old EMT plates.  They go for about
$100 new.  For a hundred bucks, it didn't sound bad at all.  Plus, it was 5 feet
from the 500 watt transmitter, and....no RF problem.

Reverb is one thing, but PLEASE don't start using a reset beep!

73
Ted  W8IXY
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flintstone mop
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« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2010, 10:01:31 PM »

One of the purposes for the reverb was not only an audio effect, but they thought it would increase modulation, by sustaining the audio. I have experimented with that and it is a slight amount, but to the 'bcasters that's revenue to them.
I have heard Amateurs using just a touch, and you need a really good quiet RF path and be transmitting hi-fi audio like WABC did during the 60's to notice the reverb.
I throw some reverb on my oldies show on WBCQ with the Alesis digital reverb and it has to be excessive reverb to be noticed. WBCQ cuts audio off around 5kc, and Timtron says there's still a little energy up to 7.5kc.
What's neat about the PLATE sound (the Alesis and other more expensive digital reverbs) is that it's the mids and mid-highs, escpecially sibilance, that are treated with reverb, the lower freqs are passed thru. That's why there is a mix control on the unit. The Alesis can give 9 different flavors of the Plate effect.
The Fisher reverb was the best sounding add-on for their top-o-the-line receivers.
Reverb is not throwing all audio into some springs. There's a separation of certain frequencies to get the right effect.

Fred
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