Where's all the ladder line & copper wire?

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Is chlorine conductive. Or maybe you could add some salts and make it a health spa!

Below is a pic of my back yard, or lack of a back yard. I may drop a line down in the pool for a ground plane

May need to add something to the water.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Yea, I'm sure the pump and filter would not like it.

Is chlorine conductive. Or maybe you could add some salts and make it a health spa!

I was just kidding about adding something to the pool. I have to add acid throughout the summer to decrease the Ph level down to normal and chlorine too. Pools must maintain the correct chemical balance or it creates big messy problems. I could try to drop an aluminum ground wire down in, but the water may not be conductive enough to do anything. Heck, it’s a 30,000 gallon pool and would make a great ground plane if I dumped in the right chemicals, it would just ruin the pool I think.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Can I pick the collective brains here?
I'm intrigued on the difference between the FlexWave and the CopperWeld line.
I've been debating putting up a large rhombic or full wave loop here before winter, and with the leaves soon off the trees, the time is nigh. So wondering which of the two types would be the ideal material.

What are the main differences between the two and what gauge do you use?
Davis seems to favor the FlexWeave in the description on their website, but I don't need flexibility as much as I need endurance.

Can anyone speak to their experience as well as the difference between the two?

As far as using CopperWeld vs FlexWeave, I'd like to have a continuos run of wire back to the shack as the feedline, in other words, not splice the feedline on the loop or rhombic wire. Will either have an advantage here?

Bruce, consider the attributes of the two different types of wire. The Flex is designed to be just that, flexible and limp. That doesn't imply that it is any stronger than regular soft-drawn copper wire, only more flexible and maneuverable, capable of being bent more without fatiguing. But no stronger.

Copperweld is designed to be as strong as steel, stretch and break resistant, while offering the RF conductivity of copper. So the question is...Do you need strength or flexibility? For an antenna that's not supposed to bend, you need the strength of Copperweld.

Downside: If you haven't used it before, Copperweld can be a real pain to deal with. Solid Copperweld will go Anaconda snake on you, once it comes off the reel you absolutely must keep tension on it at all times, even if it's lying on the ground, or it'll coil, knot up and tangle on you. If you kink it, that will make for a permanent weak spot. Stranded Copperweld is much easier to deal with, but you still need to properly handle it.

#14 Copperweld is going to be plenty strong enough for your antenna. Don't worry about splicing it, use those copper electrical split bolts at wire junctions. They'll never come apart and won't corrode like a soldered connection outdoors will.

The Farmers Almanac thinks we've got a long and cold winter coming, and I'm thinking of making this a "set and forget" antenna, as bulletproof as I can, so I appreciate your tips and suggestions.

Aahh, they say that every year. It sells the Almanac- LOL.

Nevertheless, our temps out here are supposed to plunge in a day and we're expecting highs in the low 30s with several inches of snow over the weekend.

[W2XR]

I have had double braided Dacron on my doublet for at least ten years.    The part under tension has not frayed or decayed.     It is resistant to UV destruction from the sun, nylon and polyethylene will crap out in the sun in a few years.  The rolled up part has been chewed on by animals so it will need replacement if the antenna comes down.
Flexweave is copper rope made up of many small copper strands.   It is good for putting up a quick antenna.   You can tie it to the insulators and not bother soldering.    When my doublet was vaporized by lighting, I replaced it with Flexweave.    After a year, it frayed so bad at the tension points I had to replaced it with copperweld.    Copperweld is steel wire that is copper plated.    It is strong, doesn't stretch much and lasts a long time.  I used the stranded copperweld.

I agree with this gentleman completely.

I too use the black double-braided Dacron for the halyards for my 126-foot long dipole antenna, and the stranded Copperweld for the antenna proper. The Copperweld product used here at W2XR has a black vinyl insulative outer covering that reduces the long-term corrosion to the steel wire itself. The black material is supposedly more resistant to the effects of UV radiation, vs. other available colors. I think the Copperweld I used was 12 AWG.

For attaching the stranded Copperweld to the end and center insulators, I use stainless steel cable clamps to provide a solid stress-free mechanical attachment. For a good electrical connection, the 600 ohm open wire feeders are then soldered to the the Copperweld, and the loop-thru at the end insulators is soldered as well, so the electrical length of the antenna remains constant. You don't want to rely upon the soldered joint to provide mechanical rigidity or support here; that is the purpose of the cable clamps. I also apply a thin coating of anti-seize compound to the threads on the cable clamps to keep them from galling; stainless threaded fasteners have the habit of galling or seizing together when tightened excessively; the anti-seize prevents this from happening.

This particular antenna has now been up for over 3 years with zero issues.

73,

Bruce

[K6IC]

About 20 months ago,  I ordered 1000 feet of 14 Ga stranded copperweld windowed ladder line from the Wireman.  Was Out of Stock,  but would ship soon.  Expedited it a couple of times.  Took more than six months for the order to fulfilled.  No one had it.  It seems to be the nature of the (and many other) business(es).

The windowed line is not true ladder line,  but seems very tough,  and is useful.
Good Luck      Vic

[N3DRB The Derb]

I liked the W7FG at first, but the wind and twisty trees I have would slip one side or the other side of the PVC down the wire so every other piece of tubing was 45 degrees to the horizontal. It looked all crazy like a drunk had made it. it also came down 3 times....or was it 4?      Uses #16 fine stranded copper. twice it unraveled from the end insulator and once the wire broke at the end insulator.

I have a new ant made from #14 THHN stranded ( I had 500 ft of it in the house) with 100 ft of Belden 8210 72Ω KW twinlead, 13 AWG conductors.

My next door neighbor has a bow and I'm gonna go ask him tomorrow if he can shoot some lines over for me.

the only insulators I had were these giant old buzzard glass jobs 5" long. maybe they'll hold up maybe not, but thats what I had.

[K5UJ]

Condx sure were the pits on 75 here tonight.  I have never seen those glass dogbones before.  those look like they might have better insulating properties than the porcelain ones I get at hamfests.  Looks like there's more surface area between the ends.  When I got my first W7FG shipment out of the box a few years ago it was my first time with ladder line and I couldn't believe what I had spent money on.  But I strung it out between a fence post and a stake and stretched it and got the spacers and tension on each side equalized and it started to look okay.  I also thought the gauge of wire they use was too small but once I stripped the insulation off it looked like more than 16 to me.  Anyway it takes solder easy and I haven't had any problems with it here and we get the wind but I guess not as bad as in some places.

In the back of my 1957 handbook there is an ad for Fretline, "The ready made open wire H.F. transmission line now available in heavy duty sizes."  Made by Fretco Inc. in Pittsburgh.  They advertise 5 types of 600 ohm line, of different prices and power handling capablility.  Cheapest is 10 cents / foot, model F16-3.75-2.  Next up is F12-6-3 at 14 cents/foot, then F12-6-1 at 38 cents / foot.  The other two, F6-12-4 and the heaviest, F6-12-2 are given as "Prices on request," which as we all know, is code for, "you don't want to pay this much."   I may have seen this feedline years ago at Field Day.  We used to use ladder line that was bare solid copper wire with light weight ceramic spacers baked on, looking very much like what is pictured in the Handbook ad.  I tried to find it about five years ago and was told that no one would make it today because of liability.

Rob

[K5UJ]

Yep yep, balanced line for balanced antennas; goes together like birds and nests.   No traps, stubs, capacitors, coils, resistors, linear loading, baluns.  Just wire plain and simple and you can't go wrong.   coax is for monopoles.   I'd even feed a rotatable balanced antenna like a yagi with balanced feedline but it does get mechanically complicated.   The one way I saw pictured was in my 1939 handbook.  It was to have the yagi on top of a tower with the feedline coming down inside the tower.  Whole thing rotates inside guy rings with the rotator at the base.  At the bottom, two bare copper rings on insulators go around the outside of the tower, one above the other and the feedline comes down and connects to them from inside.  Feed to shack comes out to wipers that make contact with the rings so the yagi can rotate without twisting the line.  Pretty nifty but probably hard to maintain.   Anyway, some naysayers claim that coax and a balun prevent common mode noise pickup but if that's the only advantage to coax I'll take multiband performance and the other advantages of ladder line any day.  You can eliminate common mode with a link coupled tuner too, which is a fact they seem to ignore.

[K3ZS]

Depends on if the impedance is high or low at the end of the feedline, will vary with the length of the feedline.   This is for tuned feeders, not a matched line.

[Ralph W3GL]

If your feed line happens to be in the high range, use the parallel
method and as the impedance comes down tap in on the coil.

For low impedance feed use the series method.

Rather than set up the tuner for series feed, as shown in the second
diagram, simply open the center of the parallel coil and insert
the feeders there...

No need to rewire the circuit, sticking the  (ganged) cap in series with
the feeders...

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Tuner variations shown here.

http://www.amwindow.org/tech/htm/160smallants.htm


All are fully link coupled.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

The vertical sections do not radiate or only very little, so there should not be much vertical polarized radiation. They are for loading only. I used a very similar design for many years. But, I like the approach used in the attached article better. I think it's mechanically cleaner.

[K9PNP]

Condx sure were the pits on 75 here tonight.  I have never seen those glass dogbones before.  those look like they might have better insulating properties than the porcelain ones I get at hamfests.  Looks like there's more surface area between the ends. 

I have used those glass insulators for some time.  Inherited some a number of years ago.  Have never had one break so far.  They kept a 40 M dipole up for 15 years and thru 3 ice storms and numerous bad wind storms.  Of course, during the ice storms it was sometimes hard to load the antenna; guess the ice was pretty dirty to change the resonant freq.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

I have a vertical feedline and there is no radiation from it.     Or at least not enough that it matters. (Yes, you are correct, there is some minute amount of vertical radiation). The same applies for the loading stubs. I've used and modeled this antenna. It's pattern is indistinguishable from a dipole at the same height.

If you can get 180 feet up and you have a good tuner, you are set on 160 meters. You may not even need to mess with the loading sections. 

The vertical sections do not radiate or only very little, so there should not be much vertical polarized radiation. They are for loading only. I used a very similar design for many years. But, I like the approach used in the attached article better. I think it's mechanically cleaner.

There will be "some" vertical polarization. Anytime you have wire hanging vertical there will be "some". I agree though, it’s mainly for loading.

It’s actually an idea that I never though of. I measured and I actually have room for about 160' to 180' max. It’s a possibility. I don’t know if there is any activity here in CA on 160 though. I would need some vertical polarization to work stations across the country back East.

[W3SLK]

Brian posted:


I remember reading about that in QST a number of years ago, (when I was still quite naive). I wanted to put it up but I couldn't get the flat section up high enough so that the stubs wouldn't interfere with farm equipment passing underneath it.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Mikey, you may recall the many QSOs we had on 160 in years past. For most of those, I was using the antenna below. The ladder line sections were about 10 feet of the ground.

[W3SLK]

Steve said:

Mikey, you may recall the many QSOs we had on 160 in years past. For most of those, I was using the antenna below. The ladder line sections were about 10 feet of the ground.

Yep I sure do. That was when you were working from the Baltimore area. Its a great aerial if you have limited space but a dipole is still the winner. Eric always would say "A compromise antenna makes a compromised signal."