Where's all the ladder line & copper wire?

[w5hro]

I finally decided to finish up my antenna system now that the weather has started to turn cold here in California. I got on the net yesterday (the internet) and was going to order some of the big heavy #14 450-Ohm ladder line and much to my surprise everyone is OUT OF STOCK!

I checked all of the usual outlets and no one has any. I then tried to find some #14 heavy stranded copper wire and that was all gone too, but I finally found two 100’ rolls of the better flexweave type wire before it was over.

Where the heck did all of the ladder line and copper wire go

Anyway, I am putting up a ½ wave center fed Zepp in a horizontal loop configuration for 75 meters. I decided to call the guy in Dewey Oklahoma yesterday and buy 100’ of the W7FG 600-Ohm open wire line which should work better than the ladder line anyway. I’m just too lazy to track down the materials and build my own open wire line, I don’t have the time.

[KF1Z]

Did you try the Wire-Man?

http://www.thewireman.com/antennap.html#balanced

[flintstone mop]

The Wireman has a little blurb on the first page of their site that the economy has wrecked the wire making industry and even though the Ham radio needs are a formidible amount of business, it is still not enough to get a manufacturer to tool up for our needs. Ladder line is the biggest item affected. And probably the good heavy stranded antenna wire also.

Fred

[ka3zlr]

Copper Industry is doing just fine by what I've read, mines are still producing, maybe somebody lost a contract somewhere with somebody. Ebay prices don't seem to be increasing that much.

[ka3zlr]

Oh, Demand is down, i kinda figgered that.

[K5UJ]

Never have used that window line.  I get the marine pulleys from Radioworks.  porcelain dogbones from hamfest vendors.  dacron from wireman or radioworks.  no. 12 stranded in 500' rolls from home depot.  feedline from W7FG.  no probs sourcing anything here so far.

[K3ZS]

Watch the flexweave for permanent wire antennas.    I used it and it frayed apart is about a year.    When back to copperweld.    The copperweld in the #14 window line I had seemed to rust out faster than the copperweld on the antenna.    Maybe the lightning strike I had melted off some of the copper from the feedline.    THe antenna was vaporised so it was replaced.

[W1RKW]

It's kinda like ammunition.

[KB2WIG]

                                         "  It's kinda like ammunition. "


Kan't have too much.


klc

[N3DRB The Derb]

I'm looking forward to see how this belden 8210 72 ohm KW twinlead works out. my left leg was killing me today so I didn't even escape the house. Too much walking at the fest.

antenna is made and ready to install. just have to elevate.

[W2XR]

'HRO,

I swear by 600 ohm open-wire transmission line. On a gamble a few years back, I bought the stuff that W7FG offers, and I have found it to be reliable, inexpensive, easy to work with, and it holds up well. Other users report similar positive experiences. Regardless of rain or snow, the impedance of this line remains essentially constant, unlike the 450 ohm glorified TV twin-lead. The only time I have to tweak the antenna matching network (other than when I QSY), is when there is appreciable ice build-up on the antenna and/or feedline. I would recommend the W7FG product to anyone, and it beats the hassle of having to fabricate 600 ohm open wire feeders yourself. It is also very lightweight, so it reduces the sag and loading on the span of a fairly long wire antenna.

I feed my 126' flat-top antenna/open-wire transmission line combination with a homebrew balanced-L network. Works great, and I can maintain a unity VSWR anywhere from 3.5 Mhz to the high end of the 10 meter band with no problem.

The only drawback to open-wire feeders is the need to achieve electrical balance in the line and antenna; this is  accomplished by maintaining the best possible physical symmetry in the installation, and by feeding the line with a source that provides nearly perfect balance between the two phases. I think that a balanced L-network can achieve this best. The routing of the feedline is critical in that it must be kept away (by at least 18 inches) from metallic structures, and like any type of feedline, should be run ideally at a right angle from the antenna proper.

As Mikey says, "Try it, you'll like it!".

73,

Bruce

[k4kyv]

I have loads of copperweld, so that's what I use, even though it is a PITA because it is so stiff and springy (kind of like EHS guy wire). If you are not worried about stretching, plain old soft-drawn solid copper wire from Lowe's or Home Cheapo should do the trick.  I suspect it's the ready-made "ladder line" and "window line" (aka glorified TV ribbon) that is in short supply.

I prefer solid wire for antennas.  If you  want stranded, look for marine electrical wire.  It is just like regular single strand vinyl insulated house wiring or romex, except it is stranded instead of solid.  I don't know why, but the electrical code requires solid wire for house wiring, but boats use stranded.

My experience with stranded antenna wire is that the strands eventually fray, particularly if there is any soldered connection.

Maybe the old buzzard stranded phosphor bronze wire like they used for "hammock" antennas in the 20's would be better, but that stuff is probably unobtainium to-day.

[W2PFY]

If you are not worried about stretching, plain old soft-drawn solid copper wire from Lowe's or Home Cheapo

My 160 meter antenna is built with # 10 insulated stranded wire. In the first few years it was up, (80 feet) it stretched a lot. The rope I used vaporized over time from the sun and it came down.To my surprise, I had to add to one end and shorten it from the other to balance the two sides. Then I hooked one end up to my pickup truck ball hitch and the other to a fat tree and stretched the cable till it broke. I soldered  it back together and stretched it again almost to the breaking point and left it that way for awhile. After the stretching it was within one inch from side to side. I took a sample of the stretched wire and found it very difficult to remove the insulation as it was some way bound to the copper wire from the stretching. It's been up now for about 7 years anchored by the same type of wire that has now grown into the trees. If I ever wanted to get it down, I would have to shoot the end support insulators with a rifle.  

[Jim KF2SY]

Did you try Davis RF in New Hampster?
I bought my # 14 from these guys several years ago.  OK stuff....

http://www.davisrf.com/ladder.php

[K5UJ]

I've had stranded house wire antennas up for years and never had a problem except one cheap hardware store pulley fell apart on me so I started using marine pulleys.  I'm so space limited that I have no spans of wire that are more than 40 or 50 feet so that's probably why the stranded house wire works okay for me.  If I were going to put up a true buzzard dipole, some span of 135 or more feet between two giant Vesto towers, I'd probably have to find some tougher wire.

Maybe I do my soldering differently from others.  I have a 150 watt iron with a big tip and when I make a dipole and have to solder the feedline to the center insulator wires I get each side real hot and impregnate the junctions with silver lead free solder until the wire is almost hidden inside these globs of solder.  Takes the iron about 20 minutes to get hot and an hour or more to cool down.  That's about the only thing I use it for, making antennas.  

[ka3zlr]

I've used Both no real problems, but then again I like bazooka Antennas and that uses up alot of coax.
For loops I like solid drawn.


73
Jack.

[KB2WIG]

  " Maybe I do my soldering differently from others. "

A few thoughts....

Solder what you can indoors. The air is static, and may help add a few degrees to yer joints.

Take a cardboard box, or a 'brown' paper bag outdoors and use them as a windbreak. The solder joint is sweated in the  bag.

Look for an old style soldering iron. The kind that you heat with a torch. These things have the thermal mass to hold a carload of heat if yer sweatin some 10 copperweld.

Send the wire to the Macaroni net, and they'll do a supurb, fb om job.


klc

[w1vtp]

Did you try Davis RF in New Hampster?
I bought my # 14 from these guys several years ago.  OK stuff....

http://www.davisrf.com/ladder.php

Man!  That one's a keeper.  I have a 100' roll of the #16 stuff.  But it wouldn't hurt to have some of the #14 stuff hanging around.  Thanks

Al

[W1UJR]

'HRO,

I swear by 600 ohm open-wire transmission line. On a gamble a few years back, I bought the stuff that W7FG offers, and I have found it to be reliable, inexpensive, easy to work with, and it holds up well. Other users report similar positive experiences. Regardless of rain or snow, the impedance of this line remains essentially constant, unlike the 450 ohm glorified TV twin-lead. The only time I have to tweak the antenna matching network (other than when I QSY), is when there is appreciable ice build-up on the antenna and/or feedline. I would recommend the W7FG product to anyone, and it beats the hassle of having to fabricate 600 ohm open wire feeders yourself. It is also very lightweight, so it reduces the sag and loading on the span of a fairly long wire antenna.

Bruce

Yep, W7FG is the way to go if you don't want to home brew.

Larry NE1S got it some years back, I've had up at the QTH for over 4 years now.
Nary a failure that was not my fault.

I did have a failure, which was my fault, right after I put it up. I unwisely allowed the feed point at the building to just dangle,
the constant flexing broke the antenna feedline. Spliced it back together, consulted a 1930s ARRL Handbook about
support such line properly, never another problem.

It has survived four Maine winters on the coast, and we get some HIGH winds and storms here, even survived two years of ice storms, seems to outlast my support ropes. And it's not even supported in the middle, just on the ends!

I've got some very cool phosphor bronze antenna wire from RCA Riverhead that W1FPZ gave me a few years back, kept
thinking that went the W7FG stuff crapped out then I'd put up the phosphor bronze, hasn't happened yet!

-Bruce

[Bill, KD0HG]

Did you try Davis RF in New Hampster?
I bought my # 14 from these guys several years ago.  OK stuff....

http://www.davisrf.com/ladder.php

I'm using the Davis #14 Copperweld window line, it's been up for 10 years in hurricane winds without any issues. The insulation has held up perfectly in our intense sunlight.

Strong? You could hoist a car off the ground with it.

Power handling hasn't been an issue. I bet it'll take 10 KW if halfway matched.

Using pieces of PVC pipe as standoffs from the tower, the bottom end terminates in a pair of strain insulators and stiff springs to hold it taught.

It's easy to use and handle.

The W7FG line I tried was made of #16 or #14 softdrawn stranded copper and just didn't hold up for me, but this is an extreme environment here. Occasional 100 MPH+ chinook winds every winter and spring. Gotta use copperweld for everything aerial.

The Davis Dacron rope is terrific stuff. It's covered with a black fabric sleeve to protect it from degrading in sunlight. Won't stretch. Also highly recommended.

[k4kyv]

Send the wire to the Macaroni net, and they'll do a supurb, fb om job.

Good Riddance, or What Happened to the Macaroni Net?

http://www.worldwidedx.com/hf-bands-hf-rigs/36100-what-happend-marconi-net.html

[K5UJ]

  " Maybe I do my soldering differently from others. "

A few thoughts....

Solder what you can indoors. The air is static, and may help add a few degrees to yer joints.

Take a cardboard box, or a 'brown' paper bag outdoors and use them as a windbreak. The solder joint is sweated in the  bag.

Look for an old style soldering iron. The kind that you heat with a torch. These things have the thermal mass to hold a carload of heat if yer sweatin some 10 copperweld.

Send the wire to the Macaroni net, and they'll do a supurb, fb om job.


klc

yeah i solder inside whenever possible.  Outside I use various torches but getting the heat right takes practice.  The worst was up on a ladder on the roof soldering wire in the wind.  damn near impossible but I got it done eventually.  I hate the wind. 

[W1UJR]

I'm using the Davis #14 Copperweld window line, it's been up for 10 years in hurricane winds without any issues. The insulation has held up perfectly in our intense sunlight.

Strong? You could hoist a car off the ground with it.

Power handling hasn't been an issue. I bet it'll take 10 KW if halfway matched.

Using pieces of PVC pipe as standoffs from the tower, the bottom end terminates in a pair of strain insulators and stiff springs to hold it taught.

It's easy to use and handle.

The W7FG line I tried was made of #16 or #14 softdrawn stranded copper and just didn't hold up for me, but this is an extreme environment here. Occasional 100 MPH+ chinook winds every winter and spring. Gotta use copperweld for everything aerial.

The Davis Dacron rope is terrific stuff. It's covered with a black fabric sleeve to protect it from degrading in sunlight. Won't stretch. Also highly recommended.

I think I need to look at that Dacron rope that Davis has Bill, sure that is my problem. The stuff I use is at least 3/8" diameter, but does not last that long. I used to think the critters might have chewed on it, but noted that ends of the broken line were very brittle.

Can I pick the collective brains here?
I'm intrigued on the difference between the FlexWave and the CopperWeld line.
I've been debating putting up a large rhombic or full wave loop here before winter, and with the leaves soon off the trees, the time is nigh. So wondering which of the two types would be the ideal material.

What are the main differences between the two and what gauge do you use?
Davis seems to favor the FlexWeave in the description on their website, but I don't need flexibility as much as I need endurance.

Can anyone speak to their experience as well as the difference between the two?

As far as using CopperWeld vs FlexWeave, I'd like to have a continuos run of wire back to the shack as the feedline, in other words, not splice the feedline on the loop or rhombic wire. Will either have an advantage here?

The Farmers Almanac thinks we've got a long and cold winter coming, and I'm thinking of making this a "set and forget" antenna, as bulletproof as I can, so I appreciate your tips and suggestions.

http://www.davisrf.com/

-Bruce

[K5UJ]

I needed about 500 feet of dacron last summer and shopped around.  Found the best deal at either wireman or radioworks, can't remember which.  I use the 3/16 700 lb. test line.   sometimes I double up on it.   only problem with it is that it stretches out at first so you have to retension it a few times.  I don't bother with clips, thimbles any of that just knot it on the mast guy rings and at the anchors in the ground I loop it and secure it with (you won't believe it) cheap chinese knockoff locking pliars.  They cost a couple dollars each at Menards, they rust eventually but by then the rope has stretched and I'm not undoing it so I don't care.  Compared to clips, thimbles, and other gadgets they are cheap and convenient and do the job.  I like RF transparent guy material because I have so much metal in a tight space already I don't need more.  Never had a problem here with uv; only problem is if the rope passes through pine tree branches it will fray after a few years.  Maybe Kevlar rope would be better through trees. 

When I was looking for dacron, I found that there was a ton of "UV resistant rope" for sale on eBay and at hamfests that I was told was either dacron or "just as good" but I was suspicious and avoided it in favor of the real thing.  The cheap stuff looked like nylon and was gray or dull green.    It might have been okay but I know real dacron works for me and I didn't want to have to deal with failing guys in a couple of years.

73

rob k5uj

[K3ZS]

I have had double braided Dacron on my doublet for at least ten years.    The part under tension has not frayed or decayed.     It is resistant to UV destruction from the sun, nylon and polyethylene will crap out in the sun in a few years.  The rolled up part has been chewed on by animals so it will need replacement if the antenna comes down.
Flexweave is copper rope made up of many small copper strands.   It is good for putting up a quick antenna.   You can tie it to the insulators and not bother soldering.    When my doublet was vaporized by lighting, I replaced it with Flexweave.    After a year, it frayed so bad at the tension points I had to replaced it with copperweld.    Copperweld is steel wire that is copper plated.    It is strong, doesn't stretch much and lasts a long time.  I used the stranded copperweld.