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Author Topic: Do NOT screw with Navy SEALS  (Read 100544 times)
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Ed/KB1HYS
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« Reply #50 on: April 17, 2009, 09:42:09 AM »

No arguing that the planet is a better place without Saddam Hussein, but why did it have to essentially be only American lives and money spent to  get rid of him, while the entire world reaps the benefits of his absence?

Every country, including USA, France and Russia, that has had ships attacked, should declare these attacks an act of war, and join together to create a task force to impose a total naval blockade on Somalia, with each participating nation equally sharing the task of enforcing it.  Put it on notice that any Somali vessel at sea would be blasted to oblivion on sight.  No reason to blow away the poverty-stricken wretches on land, the majority of whom had nothing to do with the piracy (and are probably not even aware that it exists), but who are only trying to survive while imprisoned inside that hell-hole.

There are no known oil reserves in Somalia.

Bingo!

Historically no one has given a rats a$$ about what happens in Africa.  Becaue like you say, there are no oil reserves there. There some other natural resources, but not enough for anyone to care about that continent.
Once the european colonies were disolved, it was business as usual for the locals. (Just like the Russian departure of the balkans).

The Somalies went to piracy because it was an industry that was open to them.  If you kill this crop of pirates, you only generate a more adebt group in the next generation.  It is the same result with terrorists(the primary difference is pirates operate for cash, terrorists for Ideals). Not that each group should be tolerated to exist.

So you have two options left:  Genocidal actions that destroy the entire populations that generate these groups or  
fight the existing groups, while at the same time destroying their reasons for existance.   

Think of it as the difference between curing cancer (you still can get it, and it may still kill/hurt you) or finding a vaccine (you'll never get it ever) the first option works, but there will still be casualties.

Read Sun Tzu. (sp?)

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73 de Ed/KB1HYS
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 "I've spent three quarters of my life trying to figure out how to do a $50 job for $.50, the rest I spent trying to come up with the $0.50" - D. Gingery
Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2009, 10:31:07 AM »

There are plenty of oil reserves in Africa. Nigeria, Kenya and Uganda, to name a few have oil. China is doing extensive oil exploration in Kenya.

Do not insult our Allies like Britain, Australia, Poland, etc, by falsely claiming only American lives have been lost. Something like 40 countries have or had troops in Afghanistan. Similar numbers were/are in Iraq. Even Albania sent troops!
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2009, 10:56:35 AM »

About 70 miles from where I live is a city called Lewiston.

Until a few years ago, its people were largely of Acadian descent. Spoke French, them. Now there's a huge Somali population.

I got the chance to talk with some of these people when I worked at Idexx.

To listen to these people talk, there's no such thing as a Somali government. The country is in complete anarchy. The only form of government is from the various tribes, and they're all at war with each other.

If there were a government in place, and some semblance of order, the piracy problem would wane pretty quickly.

This will happen. Out of chaos, some order eventually is established. The question is what form that order takes.

The chaos in Afghanistan eventually gave rise to the Taliban. Ruthless pricks though they were, they were able to exert control over more of Afghanistan than most governments and occupying forces before them could, and one could say more than the current government there can.

Now that a bunch of armed Somalis have called the recent rescue an act of war, we're stuck with it. We didn't break it, but now the rest of the world is going to consider us the owners of the problem. If we get the bad guys out and do nothing more, it will be exactly like us arming the Afghanis to push out the Russians, then leaving once the Russians are gone. We're still paying for that one.

Unfortunately, with the current mindset here at home, it's impossible to win a war. There are too many people who claim defeat before the first shots are even fired. Being anti-war is "in", so everyone's doing it. It's what their neighbors are doing, after all, and it's what schools and the media tell them to beleive in.

We've nuetered ourselves socially, leaving us too impotent to actually deal with situations like this. All we can do is rescue the hostages, and hope.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2009, 07:52:47 PM »

Tom, Don't sell us short. Take the news of last Sunday as a taste of what happens when we get pissed off.
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K9ACT
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« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2009, 08:16:14 PM »

No arguing that the planet is a better place without Saddam Hussein, but why did it have to essentially be only American lives and money spent to  get rid of him, while the entire world reaps the benefits of his absence?

Aside (maybe) from the people of Iraq, can you spell out the "benefits" that the entire world reaps from his absence?  Aside from Israel, (the driving force behind the invasion), I can't think of a single benefit to any other country.  Another aside, of course, is the "military industrial complex" of all countries who participate.

Perhaps, "the entire world" did not have such a clear view of those "mushroom clouds. WDM" and other such war mongering hype.

>Every country, including USA, France and Russia, that has had ships attacked, should declare these attacks an act of war....

And then what?  It's like declaring murder a crime.

The solution is arming the crew not sending the world's navies out on an impossible boondogle.

Just picture some punk climbing up a grapling rope on the side of a large ship.  He is a sitting duck.  How dangerous can he be until his feet are on the deck?

Give the skipper a .45 auto or even a knife to cut the rope and the "pirates" are history.

The fact that unions, crews and the populace are willing to accept the fact that arming the crew would drive up insurance rates, means the problem will never be solved.  Allowing the management to offer up the crew to keep insurance rates down is the root of the problem.

It is the Ship of State that is floundering, not the merchant ships that get what they deserve.

Where are the unions when they could actually do something useful?

js


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WB2YGF
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« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2009, 08:39:51 PM »

Well they have government air marshalls - why not specially trained government sea marshalls?  The whole program would probably be way cheaper than sending even one aircraft carrier.  Like air marshalls, they don't even have to be on all the ships, just enough to be a deterrent once the word got out. 
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2009, 08:44:11 PM »

Unions have NOTHING to do with this.

The problem seems to be that many countries have laws concerning firearms in their territory.

For example, once a ship crosses the 12-mile limit, they are subject to local laws. Consider a foreign freighter arriving on an east coast US port where everyone is armed to the teeth. Once within 12 miles, they are subject to the local laws of New York state, or wherever. I guarantee you they'd have a problem with civilians holding grenades, automatic rifles and etc. in the local harbors.

Other countries have even stricter regulations.

Don't blame the maritime unions (as screwed up as they may be).

Here...Go out on a boat loaded with grenades, rocket propelled grenades and machine guns. Doesn't have to be a sea-going freighter, a 30-foot cruiser is fine.  Cross the 12-mile boundary and into any major US port. Declare your firearms to customs. You're busted, dude.
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K6JEK
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« Reply #57 on: April 17, 2009, 09:06:53 PM »

Don't mess with the French Navy either, apparently.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-04-10-france-pirates-sailboat_N.htm

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #58 on: April 17, 2009, 09:41:18 PM »

One of the guys I work with was on that boat three weeks after the release.

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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #59 on: April 17, 2009, 09:51:59 PM »

Jack just trolled you Bill! Get that hook out of your mouth before it digs in any deeper.  Grin



Unions have NOTHING to do with this.

The problem seems to be that many countries have laws concerning firearms in their territory.

For example, once a ship crosses the 12-mile limit, they are subject to local laws. Consider a foreign freighter arriving on an east coast US port where everyone is armed to the teeth. Once within 12 miles, they are subject to the local laws of New York state, or wherever. I guarantee you they'd have a problem with civilians holding grenades, automatic rifles and etc. in the local harbors.

Other countries have even stricter regulations.

Don't blame the maritime unions (as screwed up as they may be).

Here...Go out on a boat loaded with grenades, rocket propelled grenades and machine guns. Doesn't have to be a sea-going freighter, a 30-foot cruiser is fine.  Cross the 12-mile boundary and into any major US port. Declare your firearms to customs. You're busted, dude.
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2009, 12:29:50 AM »

Tom, Don't sell us short. Take the news of last Sunday as a taste of what happens when we get pissed off.

I'm not selling us short, Frank. That pic I posted came to me from a sailor with sniper training. I know what these guys can do. I've no doubt he could kill me from twelve wavelenths away if I were on 1885 kHz and he had his .50 cal.

Don't forget, those bullets and RPGs those pirates using against passing ships is only leftovers from the ones they use on each other. They won't be easily impressed by being bombed. Happens all the time in their lives. More often than holidays. That's why so many fled here.

Yes, militarily we can flatten them overnight. Million Dollar Question: then what?
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K9ACT
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« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2009, 12:31:29 AM »


>For example, once a ship crosses the 12-mile limit, they are subject to local laws.


These attacks are not happening 12 miles off shore.

>Consider a foreign freighter arriving on an east coast US port where everyone is armed to the teeth.

A .45 and a hunting knife is armed to the teeth?

>Don't blame the maritime unions (as screwed up as they may be).

I am not blaming them but it does seem that they are in a position to apply a bit of pressure.  Unions disrupt businesses for reasons a lot less serious than the risk of members being taken hostage.

If the crews refused to board the ship unless the skipper had a gun, he would have a gun in a wink.

>Here...Go out on a boat loaded with grenades, rocket propelled grenades and machine guns.

You are hyperventilating.  I said a .45 and a knife.

js

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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2009, 10:01:05 AM »


>For example, once a ship crosses the 12-mile limit, they are subject to local laws.


These attacks are not happening 12 miles off shore.



Of course they're not!

The problem is what happens when a civilian ship carrying arms crosses into a nation's territorial waters. Are they supposed to pitch the arms into the sea before entering a port?

A personal observation..I once did radar repair on commercial ships..Sometimes, the captain and crews on freighters are not very nice people at all.. Folks that I would not want armed when docked in a place like Long Beach. You never met the Captain Pissgums that I did.
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2009, 11:37:08 AM »

Oh, but some are.

The Cole was in port in Yemen when it was bombed. The issue in that case was the rules of engagement. They weren't allowed to fire on encroaching vessels, so one blew up next to them.

It's not just a question of who we arm. If a freighter from another country shoots holes in what turns out to be a perfectly peaceful small craft, that could get really nasty, really quick.

I'm all for protecting the merchant marines, but I'd hate to put them in a position where they could accidentally start a war.
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k4kyv
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« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2009, 12:22:34 PM »

The freighters don't need to carry a huge arsenal.  Just a few personal small arms would do the trick.  Even a .22 would stop someone trying to climb up a ladder to board a ship.  Hell, a wasp was enough to abort my ladder climb once when I was painting my house, and I narrowly escaped serious injury.  A bow and arrow should be sufficient if someone was waiting for them from a  safe vantage point when they reached the top.  What about electrified razor wire stretched round the perimeter of the deck.

Evidently sometimes the pirates carry their own ladder. It was recently in the news that one attempt was aborted when their ladder turned out to be a wee bit too short. Darwin Award candidate.

I can't believe we need rocket science to make a huge tanker or cargo ship invulnerable to attack by a ragtag gang of thugs in a tiny fishing vessel or motorboat.

But OTOH, a gang of 19, armed with nothing more than box cutters and fake bombs, were able to launch what historians may someday look back on as one of the earrly battles of WW3.
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2009, 12:29:36 PM »

You don't think about it, but you *don't* want to arm the unhappy crews on some of those 4th World flagged ships..It's call mutiny on the high seas. I believe those ship captains would rather face the small risk of piracy than the greater risk of arming their own crews! Even one armed and intoxicated whackazoid could be a real problem. Even today, some of those foreign crew members are the scum of the earth.

..Especially on a ship loaded with gasoline, ammonium nitrate fertilizer or whatever.

Might be different situation on US flagged merchants, but that's what it is.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2009, 01:06:50 PM »

bomb...then what.....screws with us or they get it again.
Kind of like getting spanked when you are a kid
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2009, 12:13:19 AM »

We can't do that. We must try to understand them. Then we must stop calling them pirates. That's a word steeped in negative stereotypes that serves only to widen the gulf between us. We should hold talks with them with no preconditions. A new era in foreign policy is needed. The old warmongering must cease.


bomb...then what.....screws with us or they get it again.
Kind of like getting spanked when you are a kid
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WB2YGF
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« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2009, 09:11:32 AM »

We can't do that. We must try to understand them. Then we must stop calling them pirates. That's a word steeped in negative stereotypes that serves only to widen the gulf between us. We should hold talks with them with no preconditions. A new era in foreign policy is needed. The old warmongering must cease.
Yes, after all, it's our fault they didn't have a happy childhood.  Besides, the maritime-law-challenged are simply seeking a more equitable income redistribution to make their world a better place.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2009, 09:13:13 AM »

We just did HUZ
We understand thay may need additional spankings
No war required problem addressed at the source (3 rounds cheap)
Next
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2009, 10:02:34 AM »

I'm wondering what artillery the Seals used on the three pirates.

.50 cal Barrett sniper guns would be my guess.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2009, 10:28:08 AM »

Nope. Those guys had rights and we violated them. We can't go around acting like the world's policemen. Bring the troops home. War is not the answer. This is all about oil. They don't want any oil tankers hijacked. Same crap different day. The warmongering must stop. Do it for the children.


We just did HUZ
We understand thay may need additional spankings
No war required problem addressed at the source (3 rounds cheap)
Next
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K9ACT
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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2009, 10:39:09 AM »

Oh, but some are.

The Cole was in port in Yemen when it was bombed.


You are confusing a terrorist action with piracy for ransom.

When a small boat in a sort of friendly port approaches a warship, it's intentions are anything buy obvious.

I tied my ski boat up to a nuke sub when I lived in Grotton.

On the other hand, when cruising in pirate infested waters and a typical "pirate ship" pulls up and a grappling hook lands on the deck, the intentions are not very ambiguous, are they? 

Are those lobsters in his hands or an AK47?

Do they have to fly the "Jolly Roger" to justify "discouraging" them from boarding?

js
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2009, 12:05:41 PM »

I wish I could take credit for this one:


"The way we see piracy these days is certainly not romantic: no swashbuckling going on now. Now it's more like the guys who wash your windows when you get out of the Lincoln tunnel in New York city. They want a lot of money for a little bit of work. A similar occupation would be an attorney; A whole lot of money for a little bit of work. So the way I see it, the pirates in Somalia should be called, "East African Attorneys." Has a nice ring to it."
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2009, 01:23:04 PM »

Oh, but some are.

The Cole was in port in Yemen when it was bombed.


You are confusing a terrorist action with piracy for ransom.

You say that as though holding people hostage at gunpoint until your demands are met is something other than a terrorist action. Well, you're completely wrong about that. Sorry, Jack.

When a small boat in a sort of friendly port approaches a warship, it's intentions are anything [but] obvious.

You speak like someone who has spent a lot of time on Navy destroyers in foreign ports in the last ten years. Why don't you share that experience with us? Otherwise, I'll continue to get my information from people who have.

To this day, if a military ship is in a foreign port, and some other unidentified vessel floats up alongside, the military vessel can only give verbal warnings and request the unidentified vessel to back away. They can't back those requests up with anything, not even if the threat is tangible and obvious. All they can do is take cover until they're back in international waters, unless they have clearance from pretty high up the ladder.

Those are the rules of engagement. We've handcuffed our military into sitting there peacefully while people try to kill them. Why give the merchant marines more authority to fire on someone than our military has? That makes no sense at all.

I tied my ski boat up to a nuke sub when I lived in Grotton.

Only because they let you. So what? If they didn't want your ski boat there, you wouldn't have been tying it there, and you know it. That's Apples and Dump Trucks. Give me a break.

On the other hand, when cruising in pirate infested waters and a typical "pirate ship" pulls up and a grappling hook lands on the deck, the intentions are not very ambiguous, are they? 

By that time, it's too late; you don't have a shot at them anymore. A little thing called "the hull" blocks your shot.

Are those lobsters in his hands or an AK47?

I don't know, Jack; I wasn't there any more than you were.

Using your Cole logic, all they need to do is keep the weapons hidden until they're right alongside, because then "their intentions are anything but obvious". Once they're alongside, you have no clear shot at them. Your argument defeats itself.

Do they have to fly the "Jolly Roger" to justify "discouraging" them from boarding?

Why don't you ask the people who are responsible for crafting the rules of engagement? It's tons more productive and sensible than fencing with me about it.

You're talking about "what should". I'm telling you what is. Take it up with the Navy, Jack. I don't write the policies, so go wave it at someone else.

If it's so damn easy to fix as you think it is, piracy wouldn't be something that has gone on as long as there have been ocean-going vessels. That's a fact you can take to the bank.

You show me someone with an "easy" solution, and I'll show you someone who didn't put much thought into the actual problem.
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