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Author Topic: Digital TV Impression  (Read 25844 times)
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N8LGU
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« on: March 17, 2009, 12:45:20 AM »

    I just got around to hooking up my analogue TV to  Magnavox converter box I got through Wally World with the Government coupon program. Most of WV is waiting until June for the switchover to digital but some stations have already done so.
    I was initially impressed with the fact that I got Fox 46 (10.1) which I could not receive, previously. I also get 12.1 and 12.2 (NBC). One channel is "Full screen" and the other is "wide screen". Programming is the same, however.
     After watching several minutes, I noticed that the audio has really harsh sibilants and dropouts. This occurs on all three channels.
    My hearing is not the best, but I still find this extremely annoying. Have any of you noticed this? Maybe it's just a cheap converter box. If this is what I will get on a big digital TV, I won't bother to "upgrade".
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"Rock Cave Dave"
K9ACT
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2009, 01:02:09 AM »

As a one time film maker, I find the near total lack of lip-sync most annoying and a symptom of the dumbing down syndrome.  No body cares about such details anymore.

Just another example of our government at work.

It was sold as a vast improvement is picture quality but in fact its major motivation was to provide a vastly expanded advertising venue.  Most of the stations now have several channels on which they can sell simultaneous advertising.

Thanks for nothing.

js
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KL7OF
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2009, 09:59:54 AM »

I have noticed that the sound (quality and volume) is lacking on my digital TV...It is a small cheap set .
The programming requires the sound to be at max and then must be turned waaay down when the commercials come on...I receive 3 more channels than I used to get.  PBS has the WORLD  channel and CREATE channel (I find a few interesting programs there) and there is a new one called THIS that plays old movies with lots of advertising.. I don't know if I'm going to buy a bigger digital set...There just isn't enough interesting programming.
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K3ZS
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2009, 10:43:06 AM »

I like the digital TV world with the multiple channels and high definition channels.  What I don't like is that it is more sensitive to RFI and fading.    Some of our local channels don't seem to be running the power they need to be.    When the signals drop out, the audio goes with it.    With analog TV, you could follow the program even if the picture was wiped out you could still hear the audio.    A marginal digital program is impossible to watch.
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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2009, 10:51:30 AM »

For me in the Philadelphia market, the experience had been very good so far.  I have about 40 sub-channels I can pickup over the air, more are coming on-line.

Yes, THIS just started here on 17-2.

I am annoyed with the lack of lip sync also.  But I just discovered that the upstairs HDTV has it much worse when receiving a 720p program rather than 1080i.  My downstairs NTSC TV with a Zenith HDTV converter does not have as big a lip sync delay as the upstairs HDTV when tuned to the same 720p program.  So the lip sync problem is partly the broadcaster and partly in the receiving setup.  We have had some discussions on this problem before on the AM Forum.  My guess - this is a problem that will work itself out as time goes by, by the broadcasters and the hdtv designers.

There is a timestamp sent out (ATSC spec.) in the digital data stream (every 750 milliseconds, IIRC) which will allow automatic re-adjustment of the lip sync.  Some of this type of equipment may be in service now.  (I'm not a broadcast engineer.)

Audio is usually fine.  Some surprising good audio at times from my 27" HDTV.  No matter what technology promises for HDTV and the future, I think we will always have level differences between stations and commercials, like now.

R.f. Signal Levels - Again my guess - Even with the final frequency changes in June, I believe that there may be some changes (TX power, antennas, sites) on-going into August.
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
K9ACT
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 12:00:43 PM »

Another really annoying problem related to sig strength is that with an analog sig, I can turn my rotator to peak what I can see or hear.

Dig sigs are pretty much go/no go and very frustrating to peak.

I still have the option of peaking on the analog and then switching but that will soon go away.

The good news is that aside from the "news" with a cocktail, we watch zero TV here.

The fancy antenna came with the house or we would probably have no TV at all.

js
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 12:38:27 PM »

As a one time film maker, I find the near total lack of lip-sync most annoying and a symptom of the dumbing down syndrome.  No body cares about such details anymore.

Just another example of our government at work.

Oh, come on, Jack... how is a given broadcast station's lack of attention to detail the fault of the government? Is anyone responsible for themselves anymore?

It was sold as a vast improvement is picture quality but in fact its major motivation was to provide a vastly expanded advertising venue.  Most of the stations now have several channels on which they can sell simultaneous advertising.

Thanks for nothing.

You're shocked/offended by what part of this, exactly? Broadcasters broadcast in order to make money. It's a business. In whatever "Golden Era" you grew up in, broadcasters were broadcasting to make money. It was a business then, too.

Of course your local stations are going to do whatever they can to increase their ad revenue. That's how they pay their employees. Nobody's getting rich doing it, either, trust me.

So my response to your "thanks for nothing" is: what exactly does anyone owe you that we haven't delivered?

Another really annoying problem related to sig strength is that with an analog sig, I can turn my rotator to peak what I can see or hear.

Dig sigs are pretty much go/no go and very frustrating to peak.

I've never seen a single digital tuner that did not have a built-in S-meter for exactly that purpose. With all due respect, you might try reading the manual instead of randomly blaming engineers or the government because you haven't figured out how to peak the receive signal yet.

I know you're a much smarter man than that, Jack, otherwise I wouldn't take the time to say this to you.

--Thom
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W2VW
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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 01:54:26 PM »

It would be nice if there was standard to make broadcast TV look less like overdubbed Japanese films from the 60s. Signal chain latency is a PITA. Different receivers have different latency too. The lip sync thing will iron itself out sooner or later. '   '    '      '        '            '

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K3ZS
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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 02:21:05 PM »

Most digital TV's and HD Tivo have built in S-Meters also.   You have to dig into the menus to find them.
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 03:02:56 PM »

Most digital TV's and HD Tivo have built in S-Meters also.   You have to dig into the menus to find them.

That's what I meant by "digital tuner", any device that tunes an ATSC signal.

Never saw one that didn't have an S-meter.
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W2VW
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 06:23:54 PM »

Many are not simply an S meter. More like a quality meter. They go bonkers with multipath. 
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wb6kwt
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 06:51:48 PM »

Our new digital TV has a menu option to adjust the lip sync. I haven't had to touch it but I have noticed a slight problem time-to-time but it usually clears right up. We are on cable here so don't know how it would be with an antenna.

Bob
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K9ACT
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 07:52:16 PM »

As a one time film maker, I find the near total lack of lip-sync most annoying and a symptom of the dumbing down syndrome.  No body cares about such details anymore.

Just another example of our government at work.

>You're shocked/offended by what part of this, exactly?

Nothing the government does shocks me anymore but I am offended by being forced to not only buy into a technology that I do not want but my tax money is used to make sure that everyone in the country has access to it.

I would have liked to have broadband access years ago but no one is lobbying the government to get it to folks like me.  I would like a nice new all electric car but... same problem.

I would also like taxpayers to subsidize the purchase of a MALTMILL(R) so everyone in the country could buy one or quit drinking beer.

If I had the clout  the broadcast and advertising industry do, I could force my wishes on the rest of the country and get the "government" to subsidize my wishes.

>Broadcasters broadcast in order to make money. It's a business. In whatever "Golden Era" you grew up in, broadcasters were broadcasting to make money. It was a business then, too.

Sure but the government didn't force me to buy a receiver or take my money to buy one for the poor folk.

>I've never seen a single digital tuner that did not have a built-in S-meter for exactly that purpose. With all due respect, you might try reading the manual....

I will take another look but understand, I am talking about a digital converter for an analog  TV set not some glitzy "entertainment center".

>instead of randomly blaming engineers or the government because you haven't figured out how to peak the receive signal yet.

I said nothing about engineers.

js
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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 07:53:47 PM »

For the technical types, below is the link to an ATSC document on digital tv receiver performance.  

Page 24 talks about the signal quality meter function:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_74-w-Corr-1-Amend-1.pdf
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
K9ACT
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 08:08:51 PM »

Here is a great big "NEVRMIND".

I didn't even get out the manual.  I just looked at the controller and pushed a button called "Signal" and guess what popped up on the screen?

That has nothing to do with my feelings about the rest of the issues.

js
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Carl WA1KPD
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 08:29:19 PM »

I cant speak for over the air but via cable the digital and HDTV work OKFINE here in CT.
We just added Bose Cinemate speakers to the TVand it looks/sounds very nice

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/home_theater/home_theater_speakers/index.jsp
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Carl

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N2DTS
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 09:00:44 PM »

I have cable, just the basic stuff, the old sony TV crapped out and I went to best buys and bought the cheapest pos lcd hdtv TV they had, its their own brand insignia (made in china no doubt), and the picture and sound quality are fantastic, really knocked me over on the digital channels!
I then bought a dvd/hard drive recorder with all the tuners built in, very rare, only 2 units avalable, and I am not sure if they are leftovers from last year.
The hard drive recording is fantastic, 33 hours at the best resolution, down to 200 or more hours at less def.
record one show, watch another, etc.
You can even swap out the hard drive for a bigger one.

What really bugs me though, is the composite video, hdmi video, the aspect ratio, the analog channels, digital channels with different numbers, its all a giant hodge podge of all kinds of stuff and options.

You used to just turn the darn thing on and watch it, now there is programing, options, input selection, etc...

Brett
N2DTS

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N8LGU
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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2009, 01:06:33 PM »

    Oops! Looks like I jumped to conclusions. After having watched it somemore I realize that the crappy audio varies with the programming. It appears that the converter box is doing its job alright. I think you guys are correct in that things will correct themselves over time. Don't pick on Jack. Anyone who makes telescopes and beer is ok in my book!
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"Rock Cave Dave"
KA1ZGC
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2009, 02:11:46 PM »

As a one time film maker, I find the near total lack of lip-sync most annoying and a symptom of the dumbing down syndrome.  No body cares about such details anymore.

Just another example of our government at work.

I just want to point out here that the question I actually asked in response to this was "how a given local station's lack of attention to detail is the fault of the government", not:

You're shocked/offended by what part of this, exactly?

Since the question was changed, its answer has zero relevance. Nevertheless, I want to clarify a few things, here.

Nothing the government does shocks me anymore but I am offended by being forced to not only buy into a technology that I do not want but my tax money is used to make sure that everyone in the country has access to it.

Nobody cares if you want it or not. Least of all me. However, claiming on one hand that you shouldn't be asked to pay for a new technology you don't want, then claiming on the other hand that this expense should not be reimbursed; basically suggests that you're going to be unhappy no matter what happens, so you might as well just accept it and get on with your life.

In other words, it sounds like you just want something to complain about.

I would have liked to have broadband access years ago but no one is lobbying the government to get it to folks like me.  I would like a nice new all electric car but... same problem.

Really? You got the facts to back that up?

You might have thought BPL was just some conspiracy to wreck the HF spectrum, but the people lobbying for it were lobbying under the guise of "getting broadband access to people like you". Being lobbyists and not engineers, most of them even believed that's what they were lobbying for.

As far as the electric car goes, when did that become Congress' responsibility, anyway?

You have the right to your own opinions. You do not have the right to your own facts.

I would also like taxpayers to subsidize the purchase of a MALTMILL(R) so everyone in the country could buy one or quit drinking beer.

Exactly. If it's something you support, no amount of taxpayer money is too much. If it's something you don't support or are apathetic to, every single penny was wasted.

That pretty much sums up the thought process of every American.

If I had the clout  the broadcast and advertising industry do, I could force my wishes on the rest of the country and get the "government" to subsidize my wishes.

Yeah, having digital television is certainly one of the worst atrocities humanity hath wrought to date. Right up there with Pol Pot, no question.

Appearently you didn't know that all of this has been in the works for decades. It started with EAS and is continuing through DTV. It's all part of getting our nation's communications infrastructure out of the 1930s.

America's broadcast infrastructure is, among other things, used in times of emergency to disseminate vital information to the public. This is why EAS was introduced, which is far more compatible with ATSC than it ever was with NTSC.

That's kind of necessary now, because us hams are no longer capable of acting (or even willing to act) as a substitute infrastructure should the one in place fail.

Broadcasters broadcast in order to make money. It's a business. In whatever "Golden Era" you grew up in, broadcasters were broadcasting to make money. It was a business then, too.

Sure but the government didn't force me to buy a receiver or take my money to buy one for the poor folk.

The government came to your house, put a gun to your head, and ordered you to buy a new receiver? I must have missed that memo.

You say you don't even watch TV, but are all pissed off about lip-sync issues and going on like you're about to have a God-given right taken away from you. For someone who "doesn't watch TV", you sure are awfully upset about your TV reception.

I'll say again: don't complain about the expense and then turn and complain about the subsidy. You cannot have it both ways.

I've never seen a single digital tuner that did not have a built-in S-meter for exactly that purpose. With all due respect, you might try reading the manual....
I will take another look but understand, I am talking about a digital converter for an analog  TV set not some glitzy "entertainment center".

I wasn't talking about "some glitzy 'entertainment center'" either (just gotta talk trash about everything, don't you?). As you found out just by giving the P&M a rest long enough to merely look at the remote control, you just hadn't done your homework before making these accusations.

>instead of randomly blaming engineers or the government because you haven't figured out how to peak the receive signal yet.
I said nothing about engineers.

Oh, yes you most certainly did:

As a one time film maker, I find the near total lack of lip-sync most annoying and a symptom of the dumbing down syndrome.  No body cares about such details anymore.

Whether you meant it or not, that was a slap in the faces of the broadcast engineers who have been busting some serious ass to not only get all this stuff up and running, but get it all up and running alongside the pre-existing (and seriously antiquated) infrastructure so that you wouldn't lose your signal without ample opportunity to establish reception under the new infrastructure.

Pissing and moaning about lip-sync and S-meters in the midst of all that strikes me as extremely ungrateful towards the engineers who are still up to their asses in alligators trying to get the transition completed as best they can. You're complaining about the color of the bike shed that hasn't even been painted yet.

Look, Jack... I respect your viewpoint, and even empathize to a certain extent. However, you cannot see the future in the rear-view mirror! The expense you've suffered (subsidised or not) is bubble-gum money compared to the enormous expense and effort your local broadcast stations have suffered, almost entirely out of their own pockets.

If you think the new receivers are a nuisance or an unwelcome expense, try it from the transmitter side of things.

Then, you'll find your receiver woes (both technical and financial) aren't that big a deal after all.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current
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W1EUJ
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2009, 02:57:29 PM »

Thom, everything is an argument to the death with you.
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2009, 03:12:45 PM »

Thom, everything is an argument to the death with you.

Spare me. Nobody's holding a gun to your head, either.

If I wish to carry on a healthy debate with Jack, that's my right. It doesn't involve you, so perhaps you should keep it that way rather than throwing darts at me for no reason.
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N2DTS
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2009, 04:41:06 PM »

Funny story, we went up to the wife's aunts in North Jersey, and while there, installed the converter for them.
They have an OLD TV the kind that looks like furniture, with rabbit ears, the wires inside the antenna were broken so they got one channel somewhat clear, all the others were mostly fuzz, the color is all messed up, a sad state of affairs, after I hooked the converter up, they got 6 or 7 channels with a great picture, color is still messed up but the picture is clear, and they have a REMOTE to change channels, do the volume, and they HATE it!
They are in their 80,s and were cursing out the government with all this trash, the picture is no good, on and on and on. They did not understand the remote at all, they had a button to turn the TV on, and a KNOB to change the channels, they made me disconnect everything and went back to the fuzz...


They hate anything that is different, even if it works a lot better.

Sometimes you just cant win.
If the govt does nothing, people rant and rave (fema, enron, madoff, worldcom, banking deregulation).
If the govt does something (anything) people rant and rave...

Do we bail out AIG, or let the entire financial system go down the tubes?
Do we bail out GM, or just buy cars made in china?

I can hear all the ranting and raving already..

Brett


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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 04:45:37 PM »

Welcome to the old ladies forum Brett.
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
flintstone mop
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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2009, 04:57:29 PM »

The digital experience at work with the Magnavox was impressive. We are seeing more TV channels but the audio level is a little low from the converter box.

The home experience with the REAL thing has been extraordinary. Using the HDMI connection. 1080P pix. At first one of the digital stations had a crappy audio effect with sibilance and extra compression, but it went away. Prolly takes time for the engineer to catch up with the final adjustments.

Fred
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Fred KC4MOP
KA1ZGC
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2009, 05:15:43 PM »

At first one of the digital stations had a crappy audio effect with sibilance and extra compression, but it went away. Prolly takes time for the engineer to catch up with the final adjustments.

BINGO!

I have quite a few friends in the broadcast engineering trade. The ones working in television have got their plates over-full with the transition. Haven't seen many of them in months.

On top of that, once the transition is "complete", the other half of the work begins: tearing down the VHF antenna (most stations, anyway), tearing out the analog transmitter, and in many cases tearing out the hybrid combiner with little-to-no downtime. None of that is going to be any easier than installing the digital tx/ant/combiner or whatever combination a given station is running. In most cases, it will be even worse.

All I'm trying to say is: cut these guys some slack! They still have a ton of heavy work to do before they can even think of fine-tuning adjustments, and once it's "over" for us, their work will only be half done.
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